Moore On Wealthy People's Money: "That's Not Theirs, That's A National Resource, It's Ours"

reply to post by BillfromCovina

REPLY: You write the first part of your sentence, then provide no evidence to back it up. Cute. The second part of your first sentence I agree with, but you don't realize that 99% of "the rich" started just that way. Then you give your opinion as to where and how much you think "the rich" should do with THEIR earnings. Please remember that "the rich" category reaches down to 100K, which isn't really "rich" at all. What you fail to realize is that you are saying the exact same thing the public unions and members are saying, except they want to tell the taxpayers (and you) how much money they (and you) should give up (by force of government.) The part about the "finite amount of money" is just plain ignorance of economics. The only body that can create money out of thin air is The fed, which we need to get out from under asap. You've obviously never owned a business.

The newest spewing of crappola from Michael "I never met a sandwich I didn't like" Moore was "..."The rich have committed these crimes and the people will demand your ass is in jail… we have a right to your money!" Yet he doesn't indicate what law gives people that "right." he can't because it doesn't exist in America.... and never will. But he's a big (and I do mean BIG) fan and supporter of Cuba/Castro and Hugo Chavez. Please, both of you move to somewhere that is of your liking. Get a job in either of those places, or try to start a private business there. Then you'll experience first hand what it is you wish for America.

America went from worst to first in less that 275 years because we allow ALL people to start the (economic) race at the same time. The Communists/Marxists/Socialists/Progressives/Democrats like yourself expect everyone to finish the race at the same time, regardless if they even run the race. That's like having the Super Bowl, and after the fourth quarter, if someone is ahead in points, they play overtime until the score is even, and game over.

Wealth and poverty can't both be bad, because wealth is the ANSWER to poverty. You obviously don't know this, but if someone makes an adjusted income of only $160,000, they are in the TOP 5% of earners, = the rich.
The top-earning 25 percent of taxpayers (AGI over $62,068) earned 67.5 percent of nation's income, but they paid more than four out of every five dollars collected by the federal income tax. So, you whiners, the numbers don't lie. Do some research, get a life, and quit whining because someone has two dollars more than you do.

New Data: Top 1% Pay Greater Dollar Amount in Income Taxes to Federal Government than Bottom 90%.
www.taxfoundation.org...

35% of people in America are on the public dole, and 38% pay virtually no taxes at all; and it's unsustainable. You could tax "the rich" at 100%, and it would hardly make a dent in the national debt. Selling America lock, stock and barrel wouldn't pay the total unfunded mandates the government (mostly Dems) "owes" over the next 30 years.
www.usdebtclock.org...
Look at the bottom-right, where it says "US Unfunded Liabilities," then right above it where it says "Total National assets>








Firstly, I don't consider someone wealthy until they are making a million per year, just from the top of my head. Those making $100K are actually middle class to me. At least they're what the middle class should be in this day, if the salaries of working people had inflated at the same rate of inflation and the decrease of buying power.

Are you saying that there is unlimited money? How can that be when there are limited resources?

I own a business now...

I'll address the other stuff in another post...the stuff concerning "moving to somewhere else" (the typical childish response akin to kids at the playground yelling go play with someone else) and all the communist/marxist talk.

Wealth is only bad when those who obtain it, then abuse it and not play the game fair.

Of course the wealthy pay the majority of the taxes...THEY HAVE THE MAJORITY OF THE MONEY! How the # are you gonna get water from a rock? I can't pay taxes if I don't have any money! Though that seems to be what many are advocating and complaining of the poor about.

The problem is, and it's funny, but the rich really aren't even complaining about the poor getting social services and assistance. IT'S OTHER POOR PEOPLE complaining about the poor receiving help. The rich know darn well that someone making $8 per hour needs help. It's the poor person making $20 per hour complaining about the chap making $8 per hour getting assistance.

Do you know the requirements for being approved for being on the public dole? Your household income has to be 200% of the poverty level. Looking at the chart on my desk, a household of 3 can make no more than $36,620 and they can qualify for some assistance. They won't qualify for cash assistance but they'll get maybe....$100 per month of food assistance.

You're the chicken in line with hundreds of others, waiting to be killed and processed, the others are squawking and thinking bout flying the coop and you're telling them to be quite and just keep moving forward....unless you're wealthy and then I understand where you're coming from.

It's really quite simple, all the money is being hoarded at the top so of course they should foot everyone elses bill. If they don't want to foot everyone elses bill let some of that money return to the pool and circulate.

reply to post by DZAG Wright

Are you saying that there is unlimited money? How can that be when there are limited resources?

To directly identify the above, that's what the original poster was stating, that the Fed's do in fact create money and credit out of thin air. With no tangible asset backing the dollar, the Feds are able to manipulate the market, and the currency, thus inflating the dollar.

" Limited resources"? Bwahahaha...tell that to the Fed's!

All I can say is when the whole thing collapses, and they (The Elite) are standing up on the ledges of their 30 thousand ft buildings, it should be now surprise when there will be a crowd on the street yelling "JUMP!"

Don't agree with everything Moore says but he has a point which many refuse to look at because it either kills their dream or forces them to look in the mirror.

Just because he's also wealthy, isn't a reason why he can't call the game for what it is. Hell, most of you are poor, yet you fight on the side of the wealthy so does that make you hypocritical! Moore is wealthy and fighting on the side of the poor.

IMO Moore is saying that the wealthy owe society because they have basically capitalized from Earths resources and human labor.

See here's one thing business owners and the ignorant won't admit: No matter how brilliant the invention or idea someone presents is, THEY CAN'T ACHIEVE IT WITHOUT THE HELP OF LABORERS! There's a general mentality that workers should be grateful for having a job....hell, owners should be grateful they have workers too! Unless they want to do it all themselves. Unless Gates wanted to build every computer himself and sell them all himself? Without people who sold him their labor, he would just be a guy with a brilliant idea, selling a couple of cpu's per year.

We have companies that have claimed natural resources such as rivers, lakes, oil, minerals, etc., as if they actually made them and placed them on this Earth! All of this stuff should be free for any person born on this planet. Just because you build a dam on a river and produce power doesn't mean you should be able to charge people out the yang for electricity...what are you paying me for building on my river?

What need to happen is the value of labor needs to go way up. That way a person doesn't get filthy rich for just an idea while he barely does a thing. I think every person on this planet should cease working at someone elses job until the cut of profits is discussed and adjusted.

I'm surprised there are so many people at ATS who spew the anti communist/marxist rhetoric. If we ever meet an advanced species do you really believe their economic system (if they have one) will be capitalism? Do you believe the various aliens on a ship travelling millions of light-years have to worry about paying for their meals and lodging?

Capitalism is a primitive and problematic system. I can say this even though I have done fine in this capitalistic society myself. It's not being hypocritical, it's called recognizing that your own # stinks too.

Communism and Socialism have never worked because societies who attempted to implement them weren't advanced enough. None of the societies were where the U.S. is currently at. All of the prior societies were under totalitarian or Monarchist rule. OF COURSE THE KINGS AND DICTATORS weren't going to implement the system properly!!! It takes a FREE society to implement socialism/communism. A society where there isn't a ruler who will slant things in him and his friends favor. Actually the system has already been implemented here in America, and the Corporates have slanted it in their favor.

People yelling it has never worked...I bet people flying never worked for a long, long, time. Should we have given up on that? I'm sure the first thousand attempts resulted in disaster! I'm sure there were quite a few people who said people weren't meant to fly.

Originally posted by Whereweheaded
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

To directly identify the above, that's what the original poster was stating, that the Fed's do in fact create money and credit out of thin air. With no tangible asset backing the dollar, the Feds are able to manipulate the market, and the currency, thus inflating the dollar.

" Limited resources"? Bwahahaha...tell that to the Fed's!

edit on 11-3-2011 by Whereweheaded because: (no reason given)

Oh I understand that is what the Fed's are doing. But that doesn't change the fact that there are limited resources because there's nothing backing that fiat money except...well I guess the word from the Fed's.

So there is limited REAL money and resources. I guaruntee the wealthy aren't sitting on fiat money, they're sitting on REAL money and resources. We regular people are the ones with the fiat.

If we really wanted to defeat the elites, all we have to do is EVERYONE stop working.

It seems to me that the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few is never going to be anything other than detrimental to society as a whole.

Things like delinquency, drug use and teen pregnancies are pretty rare in countries that have an income differential of 20% or less whereas in countries like the UK and US they are a real problem.

Having a million quid as a plinth to rest your next million quid on helps nobody.
Have a look at Holland, they have to shut jails because there's less crime in their more equal society.

"Communism and Socialism have never worked because societies who attempted to implement them weren't advanced enough. None of the societies were where the U.S. is currently at. All of the prior societies were under totalitarian or Monarchist rule. OF COURSE THE KINGS AND DICTATORS weren't going to implement the system properly!!! It takes a FREE society to implement socialism/communism."

REPLY: WHAT? Are you really serious? Communism is the absence of freedom; they are mutually exclusive. A few of my friends came to America from Marxist/Communist countries, as did my grandparents. The only people who benefit from Communism are those who run the show. PLEASE tell me you didn't go to school in America. If you did, you should ask for your (I should say "our") money back. That is the kind of crap they teach at most of the elite colleges like Harvard, Cornell, Yale et al. None of them should get one dollar from the taxpayer, in fact should be sued, because they are selling a defective product

Originally posted by zappafan1
REPLY: WHAT? Are you really serious? Communism is the absence of freedom; they are mutually exclusive. A few of my friends came to America from Marxist/Communist countries, as did my grandparents. The only people who benefit from Communism are those who run the show. PLEASE tell me you didn't go to school in America. If you did, you should ask for your (I should say "our") money back. That is the kind of crap they teach at most of the elite colleges like Harvard, Cornell, Yale et al. None of them should get one dollar from the taxpayer, in fact should be sued, because they are selling a defective product

From Wiki: Communism is a sociopolitical movement that aims for a classless and stateless society structured upon common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour and private property in the means of production and real estate.[1]

Does that sound like absence of freedom?

A society where there's no one to look down upon you because you're all equal. Now I realize the down side to this already...some people wouldn't like this because THEY wouldn't have anyone to look down upon either.

Pay attention to where the definition states "common ownership of the means of production, free access to articles of consumption, and the end of wage labour...". My friend those things are TRUE freedom. As long as there isn't a dictator or ruling class. If there is, then it isn't communism. There hasn't been ONE communist society in our history! There have been societies that we erroneously labeled communist, just throwing around terms. But looking at that definition would you consider Russia, China, Cuba, whoever, communist?

The only issue I would have is with the ownership of private property, real estate to be exact. I believe a man's home should be his.

In true communism, there wouldn't be anyONE running the show, everyone would have a hand in running the show.

You've eaten up the propaganda the U.S. spread way back in the 40's and 50's that, "Beware the Commies are coming!" They want to take away your freedom (sarcassm on: freedom to work for me for crumbs).

The only people who should fear communism are selfish and self-centered people. So yeah the wealthy elites, corporation owners, and to our surprise, even people who live in 50 x 15 trailers fear communism. Which of those peoples don't belong in the sentence.

The elites who control our government and country have paid billions to insure we never consider communism, because when properly implemented it would mean the end of a free ride for the wealthy. They would no longer be able to look down on anyone, instead they would be on the same ground and eye to eye. They would actually have to do their own work instead of slick-talking someone into doing it for them.

THAT, my friend is why communism is feared by those who know what it really is.

Originally posted by zappafan1
reply to post by Daughter2

 

First, you DO know that the term "rich" includes those making $110k per year... hardly "rich" by most standards. What do you think they do with their money... paper their den with it? Ask the (mostly union) workers if they care some "rich" guy buys a Cadillac or Lexus or....? What do you think they'd say?

Money equals freedom, and trying to explain freedom to many Americans is like trying to explain the concept of "wet" to a fish.

When I talk about rich I'm not talking about someone who is making 110K or even someone who makes a few million.

I'm talking about the top 400 people who control most of the wealth. So unless you are a billionaire (or your daddy is) I'm not talking about you.

At this level, money IS NOT put back into the system.

And money does equal freedom. If you have 400 out of 100 million people controlling most of the wealth, then you have freedom taken away from 99% of the population.

reply to post by Daughter2

Not true, because you can create your own wealth. There is no finite amount of wealth/money. And what someone above said, wealth cannot be created without resources or laborers, is total fiction. Common sense is a resource, as is wisdom or intelligence. As mentioned, wealthy people (not always the elite) put their money in banks or invest it, which others down the chain use to fund their own goals or to fulfill their own dreams.

Whatever money someone else has, whether it's $5 or one million, was NOT taken from you, unless someone broke into your house or stole your purse... or it went to public unions (taxes) or government (taxes.) To think that reveals someone who is bitter and envious.

reply to post by DZAG Wright

As I mentioned, I have family who escaped Communism in Europe. I know first hand what they went through. It appears to be you who believe the false promises of Communism. One only has to look to North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela to see what always happens; and the scenario will always play itself out the same.

By the way, since the fall of the Berlin Wall, and all types of documents were shared between us and them, it turns out that McCarthy was quite correct.

reply to post by Whereweheaded

Your comment, " the lack of controls" would suggest that government regulation, or intervention is necessary.

Whoa, there, my overzealous compatriot.

I was pointing out the flaw in taking the data presented and drawing the types of conclusions that were being drawn from it.

This is part of science and the scientific method - in order to establish a case-effect relationship, one must control the experimental setup and isolate the variables in the experimental setup. For example - if you were testing the effects of watering on plants, you could not put one container in a window and the other in the freezer. You have to treat everything the same except for the amount of water, in order to properly draw a cause-effect relationship between the observed results and the variable.

Obviously - in such an open system as the economy, and without the ability to actually experiment - attempting to attribute things such as FDR's policies to the economic recovery seen following the depression is kind of like attributing the waning tide to rush-hour traffic. Raw law of statistical averages dictates that every recession and/or depression will eventually see recovery. Isolating one factor as being the primary or the only cause is pretty much impossible and purely speculative at best.

Originally posted by zappafan1
reply to post by Daughter2

 

Not true, because you can create your own wealth. There is no finite amount of wealth/money. And what someone above said, wealth cannot be created without resources or laborers, is total fiction. Common sense is a resource, as is wisdom or intelligence. As mentioned, wealthy people (not always the elite) put their money in banks or invest it, which others down the chain use to fund their own goals or to fulfill their own dreams.

Whatever money someone else has, whether it's $5 or one million, was NOT taken from you, unless someone broke into your house or stole your purse... or it went to public unions (taxes) or government (taxes.) To think that reveals someone who is bitter and envious.

edit on 11-3-2011 by zappafan1 because: Content

How can common sense alone make money? It can't...common sense or an idea to exploit a resource will produce wealth.

How has the wealthy placing their money in a bank helped us lately? I ask this question even though a wealthy person will tell you they aren't placing their money in a bank. They invest their money...and it so happens they aren't investing it in America anymore. The economy is global and soon, very soon, America will be forced into a Third World country. It was all planned.

It has nothing to do with envy to call a spade a spade. It just shows that you don't justify or excuse the #ery that's going on.

To get a clearer picture of wealth: If you were the only person on North America would you be wealthy? With all the natural resources, oil, etc., would you be wealthy? I'll answer it for you: No you wouldn't.

Originally posted by zappafan1
reply to post by DZAG Wright

 

As I mentioned, I have family who escaped Communism in Europe. I know first hand what they went through. It appears to be you who believe the false promises of Communism. One only has to look to North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela to see what always happens; and the scenario will always play itself out the same.

By the way, since the fall of the Berlin Wall, and all types of documents were shared between us and them, it turns out that McCarthy was quite correct.

edit on 11-3-2011 by zappafan1 because: Added content

No, you have family who escaped dictatorships, which we in America call communism. Just because I call a cat a dog doesn't make it a dog.

In order for communism to work it's really quite simple, the peoples have to be free. The places we call communist, the populace were never free. So what the leaders/rulers did was install economic systems using SOME elements of socialism and communism, but not the whole shebang.

In order to have installed communism, they would have stepped down from their place of power and informed the people that they were now no different or lower than himself. How many leaders or rulers will do this?

That's why none of the countries you use as an example are communist. And remember where I say, only certain people don't want everyone to be equal.

reply to post by DZAG Wright

You wrote: "...
How can common sense alone make money? It can't...common sense or an idea to exploit a resource will produce wealth.

REPLY: Using a resource and exploiting it are two different things. But, let me answer the above: If someone makes a widget which is sold at a certain price, and I come up with a way to produce that widget for less, the difference in the two costs is new wealth for the manufacturer. If he pays me for the idea using the "new" wealth I helped create, then it is new wealth that goes into my pocket, too.

"How has the wealthy placing their money in a bank helped us lately? I ask this question even though a wealthy person will tell you they aren't placing their money in a bank. They invest their money...and it so happens they aren't investing it in America anymore. The economy is global and soon, very soon, America will be forced into a Third World country. It was all planned."

REPLY: If they put their money into a bank, that is an investment because they will earn interest on their money, and the bank also profits on administrative costs. The local owner of a medium-size business puts his profits into the same credit union I deal with. I recently took out a loan for my business, and it helped me. I live in America, as do my two employees, and we both benefited from the other business owners investment.
True, there are those who are trying to bring down America to a 2nd or 3rd world status. If we would turn to the Fair Tax, Americas GDP would go to double digits, the IRS, for the most part, would go away, companies world-wide couldn't get here fast enough to start their businesses here, and every job that was outsourced do to over-arching government and confiscatory taxation would return.

"To get a clearer picture of wealth: If you were the only person on North America would you be wealthy? With all the natural resources, oil, etc., would you be wealthy? I'll answer it for you: No you wouldn't."

REPLY: The definition of wealth varies from person to person, as does the idea of a "living wage."

reply to post by Aim64C
The records of the economics of the time, and many, many economists, would differ with you.

reply to post by centurion1211


Moore is preaching his opinion as fact. Some of what he is saying is true, but his conclusions are incorrect - he doesnt understand the fundermental of where money comes from to start with. Otherwise:

He would understand that there never was any money and that the volume of debt ("money") that is currently in circulation is controlled by a private corporation that even the government has to borrow from at interest.

He would understand that the country has more debt than there is total money in circulation - making it impossible to be repaid.

He would understand every time a loan is taken out from a bank new money is created which gets it value from taking its value from everyone elses money through inflation.

He would understand that redistributing the wealth is further delaying the inevitable and not fixing the system.

reply to post by DZAG Wright

If you forget humans, and look only to nature... the animal kingdom... you'll see that the only way for Communism to exist is if there were no life on Earth. There has and always will be one or a number of entities that believes itself/themselves superior in one fashion or another, and therefore more deserving of whatever things they require to exist or survive. Their superiority could be through more effort or intelligence, or both.

It's like Keynesian economics... which only works in the classrooms of places like Harvard, Yale, et al, and never in the real world.

If you've seen what Steven King said recently, it's obvious he lives in a fantasy world like Moore. The other day he was complaining that the government doesn't take 50% of his earnings; nothing is stopping him from writing a check.