It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Why is there no Main Stream Media reporting the Rossi/Focardi E-Cat

page: 7
294
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 05:41 AM
link   
All outside ideas must be considered, As we all as taught the Santa. Or Satan. Unfortunate. The, Those buggers.




posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 07:24 AM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 


I think you need to think a little harder before you speak. It's pretty obvious why these things get supressed and maybe you don't have a clue and never read about world history. It's better to keep countries poor loan them money and have them pay it back through their natural resources. There is also a long history of supressing energy to limit growth. I can find you specific examples if you need. Really bud you are way to optimistic. How do you think all those telescopes and satellites work? How do they keep power and
Relaying signal? They use cutting edge tech. How about my radios and battery devices while I was in the marines? They lasted a lot longer than the ones we are sold here. What about the super capacitors used to start tanks? You seriously should stop defending ideas that simply are not true. Technology suppression is very real. Why don't we export tech to Iran? Because they would use it for war. We wouldn't let them buy ninetendos because of the chips in them.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 10:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Movescamp
 


I appreciate that you were in the military and you were part of national defence for you country. Military technologies are and always will be ahead of public tech. I would never disagree with that. In the late 70's and early 80's the NSA had retina and fingerprint scanning as well as voice recognition.

Canada (the country I am from) the CSE, which was in its infancy, had absolutely nothing. Although the NSA propped them up and loaned them tech, and they began carrying out missions for them and the British. The targets were Russian, Romanian, UK (MP's -they didn't want to spy on their own) and a few others.

Now in Canada's case, we had no shot at developing most of the tech used until the US helped us. But the target countries all had their own tech, and it didn't come from US. (Not directly)

Cont:

$1.37 Trillion Current value of global black market trade

Currently 1.37 Trillion dollars worth of black market goods are traded worldwide, and that is what is known about.(The activities that are being monitored.)

I would estimate the number a little higher.

You are telling me that all powerful US of A does not let a nintendo get into Iran when 10.6 Billion worth of black market goods/services are traded in Iran?

Give me a break. I would like people to put some things into perspective. That's all.

One person was nailed a couple years ago bringing in a nuclear module to Iran. But in the world of black market goods, the usually thinking is: why send one, when ten have a better chance at getting through? I'm pretty sure one working module has gotten through. What kind of module? Fission, not for cold fusion.


Point is: If the tech was readily available and in working order, another country would be jumping on it. Personally, I'd say the Russians (Because they have been working on it for years) or the Chinese. (They love ripping off any tech they can find)

If you want to say that it has been suppressed by lack of funding to Fusion products, I can actually concur with that one. But a giant, mass suppression effort of readily available "cold fusion", "unlimited power" tech. Nope.

I mean, all these arguments stem from people (in this thread) believing there is DIY energy out there that people are building for themselves and then it is suppressed through ridicule of the inventor in the media.

Has that point not been argued in this thread or am I wrong?

That simply can't be the case.

If you want to create a new position on this issue, a theory where the military has tech 30 years ahead, I can support that. As far as them having cold fusion, that's pushing it. And there are way to research those kinds of things but I imagine it wouldn't be as fun as nonsensical speculation.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 10:56 AM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 


I am not sure what exactly you are trying to suggest. It seems contradictory.

First off here. This has been discussed since 09 by the US Navy Labs.
US Navy labs
Secondly fusion exsist. It may not be "cold" but fusion is that big ball up in the sky (which if you live in Canada won't be out for a couple months).

Thirdly why would Russia tell the world their military secrets? Or any other country? There are many many examples of the armed forces hiring the "garage lab" inventors.

What you can't seem to admit is energy is a national security issue. Do you think the US invaded Quwait to be Samaritans? How about Iraq?

Your black market statement doesn't make any sense. The US also tries to supress drugs (I could say something contradicting but I won't) but of course a black market will arise. That in absolutely know way means suppression wasn't tried. In this case we are talking about physics only an elite group of people understand. Not a plant or a game. It's a little harder to figure out.

As far as the biefeld brown stuff. You obviously didn't read my links or any other on the subject. It's another thing the military scooped up. Why didn't we see gps for consumers until recently? The military had it for years. Can you not see the significant use of a cold fusion engine in military propulsion? Why would they tell the world their stealth craft use this? An accident will happen like gps incident with during Reagans administration, then we will say well we had this for years but the cats out of the bag now.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 11:10 AM
link   
It's better to keep countries poor loan them money and have them pay it back through their natural resources.

I know all about odious debts. But, most energy structures built in South America and Africa didn't even reach completion. The debt was created years ago and stands, even if free energy came out they wouldn't be out of debt. There are other forms of odious debts used also, steel factories (built where they don't even have ore) roads, buildings and railway lines. (That go nowhere or have no practical value)

This idea that odious debts correlate to energy suppression is not true and it doesn't even fit with the "TPTB" argument. You can't say that a global cabal controls the money supply and than say they have to suppress tech to protect that. It simply doesn't fit together.

Is global currency manipulated and controlled? Yes. How does it fit in with one another?

Dictators and corrupt officials have no money because of the odious debts. Therefore deals are struck through western countries for building projects. The leaders of the third world countries than syphon off as much money as they can (usually by having the corp. pay family members) and the projects come in way offer budget and the people are left in debt.

Philippines, Brazil, Venezuela, Mexico, All of Africa, China are all examples of this.

And yes, not all of these countries have any chance whatsoever to create anything of value by themselves.

All of South America is useless.

If another country were to harness this supposedly (readily) available tech as I said before it would be China, Russia, (possibly Iran, not likely though) or at the very least Japan.

Japan meets 50% of its energy needs through oil imports. 35% comes from nuclear energy.

Japan makes energy from seaweed and you don't have to read about it because they have talking paper that was after they launched a satellite that was the size of a tennis court.

I'm not sure about sanctions or embargoes on Japan, (Sarcasm) but if anyone were to develop this tech it would be the Japanese. As far as friendly countries goes. Besides the other non-friendly (or close to) that I mentioned before.

Or does the US suppress Japanese innovation too?

Or maybe you think it's being covered up there too.

There are scammers worldwide. That's part of life. These guys are no different than all the others trying to validate their lives by going public with unproven tech.

And let me add, that they were using palladium in their reaction. Anyone who has ever bought knows how expensive it is. At $800oz market sale I don't see it being used in a future fusion process. But that of course, is purely speculation.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 11:16 AM
link   
reply to post by ashopolis
 


I agree, I also think more money and effort should be directed towards clean and high yield energy products. But if we are to live in a world that has all these things, and everybody knows about it and how to make it, but it is all suppressed, and they don't really exist except in conspiracy lore... It hurts my brain.

I'd rather take a cautious approach than be duped by the next con-artist. The same con artists that have usurped the alternative news media to sell colloidal silver, duct tape, gas masks and bomb shelters. They are no better than the often overstated "TPTB".

I don't understand how people can be vocal about manipulation on one side, than run to a new group of manipulators on the other side.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 11:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by Movescamp
reply to post by boncho
 


I am not sure what exactly you are trying to suggest. It seems contradictory.


Okay, what is more contradictory, my position, or the fact that the US has cold fusion but than the release a report that it "might" be possible.




Thirdly why would Russia tell the world their military secrets? Or any other country? There are many many examples of the armed forces hiring the "garage lab" inventors.


The don't need to tell their secrets. Their energy production and use is information available to anyone that goes hunting for it.




What you can't seem to admit is energy is a national security issue. Do you think the US invaded Quwait to be Samaritans? How about Iraq?


That is one component. The military contractors made a fortune off of arms. Arms sales are very lucrative. And there was war before there was energy. It has always been a way to make money. It doesn't matter if you are invading a country for gold, oil, textiles, or anything else for that matter. If it has something of value, war can produce profits.




Your black market statement doesn't make any sense. The US also tries to supress drugs (I could say something contradicting but I won't) but of course a black market will arise. That in absolutely know way means suppression wasn't tried. In this case we are talking about physics only an elite group of people understand. Not a plant or a game. It's a little harder to figure out.


My black market statement was in response to the fact that you said 'we don't let Iran buy nintendos because we don't want them to have the chip inside'




As far as the biefeld brown stuff. You obviously didn't read my links or any other on the subject. It's another thing the military scooped up.


Please link me to a cogent, coherent explanation of tech developed using this science. I will read. If it comes from one of these sites that has a dozen links to other sites and is rife with speculation, I will not read.




Why didn't we see gps for consumers until recently? The military had it for years.


Are you serious?? GPS has been around for 20 years. And we already established the intelligence community is 30 years advanced. So that puts the original tech around 1960.



Can you not see the significant use of a cold fusion engine in military propulsion? Why would they tell the world their stealth craft use this?


I honestly have no idea how cold fusion would be used in a stealth craft? Are you talking submarine... cause that cold be applied. As far as something that flies... no.

Lets clear up what they mean by "cold" fusion. Fusion happens with a temperature of = 1.5 x 107 K. By saying cold, it is not entirely 'cold', it's just not at the same level as what it is in the sun. The only place we know this takes place. You will have to explain better for me to understand how it will be used for stealth craft. Unless of course you are talking submarine.




An accident will happen like gps incident with during Reagans administration, then we will say well we had this for years but the cats out of the bag now.



I think we already covered the fact that defence agencies are 30 years ahead. I explained that in my CSE/NSA reference. However, 30 years ahead and having 'cold fusion' are two separate things. Cold fusion has always been 30 years away.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 11:49 AM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 


You took my sentence out of context.

Energy out of seaweed? That is hardly a game changer.

So let me get this strait, oil, energy, and the economy don't go hand in hand? The value of US currency has nothing to do with the energy sector and the price of oil? That's what you are saying?

It's nickel that they use to get the reaction by the way.

Its funny how all these people scream hoax without any advanced knowledge of physics.

Just like with the overunity electric car. Until an electrical engineer and physicist commeted than everyone shut up.

I am well aware of the boy who cries wolf scenario here. However both the electric car and this are being done in cojunction with universities.

I install home automation systems. I go to a lot of tradeshows. There is a lot people don't know exists. The Navy has been expiremeting with fusion reactors for subs for a while. I would say it's a good judge on probability.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 12:08 PM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 


Yes I was referring to the submarine. Hence navy labs.

I would like to hear you say that the energy sector is not the biggest tie to us currency. It's the largest. Number two is military industrial. They go hand in hand and are owned by one and the same.

I don't know how old you are but after we shot down a north Korean fighter in the 1980's was when Ronald Reagan came out and explained gps.

Your statements make no sense. You argue to be a curmudgeon.

It is also a fact that ninetendos were on the sanction list in the 90's

So your comment about Russia? How does it make sense? If they were trying to develop secret weapons, like a submarine that could use seawater and nickel as fuel do you honestly believe it wouldn't be secret?

I have already linked the biefeld brown effect several times know. It's just Wikipedia but it should suffice as a jumping point. You can google it. You can google Thomas Townsend Brown. The biefeld brown effect has also been used to propel submarines as it also works in water as a silent drive.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 01:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by Movescamp
reply to post by boncho
 


Yes I was referring to the submarine. Hence navy labs.


Makes sense.




I would like to hear you say that the energy sector is not the biggest tie to us currency. It's the largest. Number two is military industrial. They go hand in hand and are owned by one and the same.


I can't deny that. With my experience in business I personally think the tech you are referring to would be used as opposed to inefficient fuels. If energy and money is controlled by the same group there is enough manipulation there that they could regulate free energy and make larger profit, produce larger net gains of resource, etc, etc ,etc.

It is really just a contrast idea to the theory that 'they have all this tech and they are suppressing it'. Really, neither of us know for sure. But for anyone to blindly jump on either side of this argument is reprehensible. The fact is, is that there is no proof of either position.

I agree that these techs could be and in some cases are in developmental stages (there is evidence of that). As to whether there are full working models, that are widespread, and there is a grass roots group of researchers that have also discovered it, that is just nonsense.

How far ahead are they? Thirty years, does that include working antigravity and free energy? That is a push and is speculation. Because we don't know for sure it doesn't exist as of now.

I can't stress enough how dangerous it is to believe in something without proof. Speculation is great. I do it all the time, and sometimes you might find me on the opposite side of the argument. However, when speculation turns to obtuse facts, I get very defensive.





I don't know how old you are but after we shot down a north Korean fighter in the 1980's was when Ronald Reagan came out and explained gps.


Yes, but we already established defence tech 30y ahead, GPS @ 1960, public use around the 90's. It was the plane that caused the release of the information. And?

The only thing this does is allow us to speculate on what will be available in 30 years, will it be everything represented by the people in fringe electrogravitics and cold fusion community? That's pushing it, considering their claims and the fact that Stephen Greer is a major proponent, while he asked for 3 million to research all the while perpetuating certain myths that are floating around.

Is it a scam?

Now, your ideas about suppression, should mean that if this guy gets anywhere close some people are going to knock on his door and clean him out. I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.



It is also a fact that ninetendos were on the sanction list in the 90's


Not saying they weren't, just saying that no matter the controls in place a lot of trade still happens.



Russia


Look, the idea is, is that all these poor countries are supposedly being suppressed? My point is that there are enough countries out there that are enemies, or at least unfavourable to the US. I agree US has very advanced tech, but what I am saying, is that if this tech is widespread, why aren't other countries using it to boost their economic and socio-economic positions? You can't link me (the other poster did) to sites that link off to hundreds of other sites where supposedly this tech is widely available and well known (but being suppressed) at the same time, claim that other countries out there wouldn't take advantage of it. It doesn't make sense.




I have already linked the biefeld brown effect several times know. It's just Wikipedia but it should suffice as a jumping point. You can google it. You can google Thomas Townsend Brown. The biefeld brown effect has also been used to propel submarines as it also works in water as a silent drive.


I'm currently doing some research on it.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 01:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by Movescamp
reply to post by boncho
 



Energy out of seaweed? That is hardly a game changer.


I'm putting things into perspective. Japan has leading research on energy alternatives. They have studied cold fusion for decades. If they made it, I think they would be using it.




So let me get this strait, oil, energy, and the economy don't go hand in hand? The value of US currency has nothing to do with the energy sector and the price of oil? That's what you are saying?


Not saying the two are not linked. But it is not energy = money. Would markets change with free energy? Yes. Would they be abolished? No




It's nickel that they use to get the reaction by the way.


Reference?




Its funny how all these people scream hoax without any advanced knowledge of physics.


Lets try to stay away from rhetoric. For every PhD in Pyschics you can find, to support the current cold fusion, I can bring at least two that don't support it. And that is a reserved estimate based on the scientific community. (It is probably more like 100/1)




I install home automation systems. I go to a lot of tradeshows. There is a lot people don't know exists. The Navy has been expiremeting with fusion reactors for subs for a while. I would say it's a good judge on probability.


Source?

If you are seeing these techs at trade shows than it is not being suppressed.

As far as businesses selling certain products over others I see that more as business savvy, as opposed to a grand conspiracy. Everything they do is transparent if you look in the right direction. People just don't give two s's about it. Look at Haliburton during Iraq, good business savvy, a congressman actually got up in the house and said their name and how they were robbing the public with overcharges. Public info, no one cares.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:11 PM
link   
Here and Here are two papers I found on Fusion science currently happening.

Still researching...



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:16 PM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 


I personally never said all the information is out there. The other poster did. The knowledge is how the surpression is used. By taking patents. It is a known fact Tesla's apartment was raided for instance by the military after his death. He screamed and protested even provided working models for many of his far out ideas. But..if people don't understand what he was saying because he was so far ahead of his time than it's not easy to get average folks or even business men to listen. The people who do listen are often in the military as they see the implications and uses in war. There is an obvious technical advantage when advanced weapons are created It makes it pretty easy to surpress when .01 percent of the population even understand what is being explained.

As a marine I had plenty of interaction with the navy. I have no direct source for fusion being experimented with submarines. I can tell you though the navy labs have an extra desire for cold fusion for good reason. The cost of making fission subs safe is astronomical and is about 70 percent of the cost.

As far as the biefeld brown effect. The research just vanished after he joined the navy. The last thing I remember reading was that once they figured out how to make aircraft or missiles weigh 30 percent less using this concept it went hush.

The propulsion also works in water and space so it's pretty much a no brainer to draw a conclusion on why the army and major research firms are experimenting with this tech on the record. However no specifics on the how are released to protect the ideas.

I have never blindly believed anything. As a cultural identification/population control specialist my training was a kind of cultural anthropology. I studied it in college after my service. It is a direct correlation to social evolution to surpress information. Kings wouldn't let peasants learn to read for instance to keep themselves empowered. Why is it any different to think corporations/government would do any different? As you said war has existed for ever. So has the game of knowledge suppression.

It's also fairly easy to see energy is a huge control mechanism. Most people can not survive without it. People can survive without iPads. If you have cheap energy you may be more inclined to say "I don't need this crap job". The lights still work (LEDs last about 40 years) the heat still works, etc. Of course other means could be used lime taxes etc. However they are not covert and people take notice of tax increases. It's much easier to pretend random events cause energy prices to sky rocket. No one even asks why and the blame is ambiguous.

It seems irrational to assume America created a whole knew concept of governance where the people have power and not elites. The more rational thought would be they found a way to get people to believe they are empowered (Rockefeller talks about this) so the backlash won't happen.

If cheap energy became manufacturable within even one year the economy of the world would collapse, and wars would be widespread to try and protect the last bit of power left. That's just the way it is. I bet any economist would tell you so. Would or could we recover or transition sure. But you assume the powerful will just give up there power and humanity would prevail. Well that's NEVER happened. EVER. So how can you make that assumption. Every major world war has led to more personal liberty being taken away and more secrecy.



I think it's not unreasonable or illogical to conclude disinformation is the knew version of control. Put I out there it can't be done. Give explanations based on supplemented info and put it in universities. Many of the most decorated and accomplished physicist end up working in defense an ultra secretive field. I would bet they are privy to some equations most of us will never see. Rockefeller paid tens of millions to have his ideas (which are nuts) put in universities by paying for labs (social studies labs). So is it impossible to get people to believe lies? Not at all? Is it easier to get people to believe what you want when authorities tell you it's so? I think so. Psyops is a real thing. I doubt it stops with the military.


edit on 4-3-2011 by Movescamp because: Edits



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:26 PM
link   
As far as 'electrogravitics' goes or the Biefeld-Brown Effect, I could not find one site in support of it that was not linked to unproven UFO theories and/or Philadelphia Experiment and/or other unsupported claims.

The best reading I found was Here. Where they do you discredit the Biefeld-Brown Effect, the physicists in this forum explain that it has been grossly misrepresented.

Until a legitimate physicist comes out with well documented science of 'electrogravitics' and 'cold fusion' I am going to remain on the fence. Because everywhere I go, reading this material, I am linked or inundated with material that suggests grand cover-up conspiracies and notions that free power would destroy the world as we know it. That all current business models would fail and no one in control would let that happen.

I would like to point out again, that, with the current state of lobbying in government right now, I speculate that I don't see it impossible for a energy company (or conglomerate) to gain complete control over a new energy.

As it stands now you cannot go out and create your own gas station (In my country), you cannot go out and pump fuel from wherever you please (regulated) you cannot even sell energy already produced (without license) and the license wasn't available until recently. Also, you are unable to make a nuclear power plant on your own (with good reason). You are unable to set up a liquor market (in Ontario -controlled by the LCBO) You are not allowed to run a Casino -OLG controlled) and yet, running underground casinos is HIGHLY profitable. The list continues on and on.

To sum up this thread: To say that "Free energy" could not be controlled is ludicrous. And actually, the only thing that comes to mind that is really widely suppressed today is, illegal narcotics, which have a major black market trade. The suppression efforts are highly ineffective.

To add to this, good ideas and good inventions cannot be contained. There is too much profit potential for cheap energy for someone not to take advantage of it -if it is so widely understood as some of these sites proclaim.

There are papers out there that prove some of these technologies (discussed) have been in development and are in development today. Does this mean they are dully working models? No.

Technology with such a massive potential of money making ability I do not believe could be contained within even the military community. On account that there are so many private contractors that work with the military they are in a sense just as secret as the military itself. These contracting companies do release new techs and make money off them. For them to sit on technology that could give them complete dominance throughout whatever market they are in seems unlikely.

I don't think I can handle any more psuedoscience associated with this thread. If the Italians have made cold fusion we will see in the next year or so. But I surmise, that this is another ruse to grab investor money.Just as the HHO-RUN YOUR CAR ON WATER scam was rampant a few years ago. I remember how that was next biggest thing, and probably there were people claiming that this had been suppressed for ages because of the "big oil agenda". Well, if history has taught us anything it is that people like to make money. No matter what.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:32 PM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 





It's also fairly easy to see energy is a huge control mechanism. Most people can not survive without it. People can survive without iPads. If you have cheap energy you may be more inclined to say "I don't need this crap job". The lights still work (LEDs last about 40 years) the heat still works, etc. Of course other means could be used lime taxes etc.


This is under the presumption that energy (no matter how cheap) cannot be controlled. While there is current evidence that supports the opposite given regulations and lobbying.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:41 PM
link   


As far as the biefeld brown effect...

...The propulsion also works in water and space so it's pretty much a no brainer to draw a conclusion on why the army and major research firms are experimenting with this tech on the record. However no specifics on the how are released to protect the ideas.


If the Biefeld-Brown Effect works in water than it is a variation. And from the studies done in France there is no proof that it works in space. It showed minimal force in a vacuum, far less than in atmospheric conditions. I am going by the narrative in the thread I linked because I do not understand French, so I can't translate.

I have read science journals talking about the phenomenon in water which I think you are referring to, but I believe that is an entirely different process.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:42 PM
link   


TextThe Gravity Research Group indicated those companies had constructed "rigs" to improve the performance of Thomas Townsend Brown's gravitators through attempts to develop materials with high dielectric constants (k).[3] Gravity Rand Limited provided a set of guidelines to help management conduct research and nurture creativity.[1] Articles about the gravity propulsion research by the aerospace firms ceased after 1974. None of the companies featured in those publications had filed retractions. The following is a list of the aerospace firms that had been cited in the works published from 1955 through 1974: Bell Aircraft, Buffalo, New York.[11] Boeing Aircraft.[16] Clarke Electronics, Palm Springs, California.[11] Convair, San Diego, CA.[11] Douglas Aircraft.[3] Electronics Division, Ryan Aeronautical Company, San Diego, California.[35] General Electric.[11] Glenn L. Martin Company, Baltimore, Maryland.[11] Gluhareff Helicopter & Airplane Corporation, Manhattan Beach, California.[11] Grumman Aircraft.[36] Hiller.[3] Hughes Aircraft.[16] Lear Incorporated, Santa Monica, California.[11] Lockheed Aircraft Corporation.[33] Radio Corporation.[16] Sikorsky Division of United Aircraft.[11] Sperry Gyroscope Division of Sperry Rand Corporation, Great Neck, Long Island.[11]


reply to post by
boncho



So all these companies spent millions on a quack idea. You are joking I hope.
Obviously there are major reasons to keep this stuff under wraps.

I am on the fence myself. However, i can logically explain why it would be surpressed.

Oh and good ideas don't always become marketed that's just ridiculous. Otherwise we would have a lot better cars for instance. Bucky fuller made a huge advancement in automobiles when the model t was in production. The Dymaxion car was 60 years ahead of it's time. Geodesic domes? Much more efficient to build and heat.
 



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:44 PM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 


Space is not a vacuum. Sorry.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:48 PM
link   
reply to post by boncho
 

Stand alone units are not regulated. I can buy as many solar panels as I want and nobody will regulate it. Sure they can come up with laws but they run a much higher risk of public out cry. Believe me it's coming. I don't think it can be surprised much longer. Unless they can pass Internet control bills.



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 03:48 PM
link   
reply to post by Movescamp
 


Neither were the conditions of the tests, they were near vacuum apparently.



new topics

top topics



 
294
<< 4  5  6    8  9  10 >>

log in

join