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Originally posted by ArchIlluminatus
Originally posted by MentorsRiddle
I listened to your links.
But, it's not true.
He is only a man and is misunderstanding the faith.
Men are prone to folly.
You're going to have to do better than that. Quote sources. Just saying 'it's not true' doesn't make it so. Back up your statement.
Originally posted by SalemWitch
I think that most Christians should concentrate on the core message of the New Testament...the good news of Jesus Christ and his power to transform one's life. Far too many "religious" people get caught up in things that don't really help the human condition. They are the first to point out what is wrong with everybody else yet have the lack of conviction to look into one's self. Maybe, just maybe if all the people who picket outside of abortion clinics, rant and rave about homosexuality etc. spread the powerful word about Christ, this world would be a better place!!!
This is coming from a born again christian who is really questioning the whole framework of organized religion at this moment in time.
Just my .02
This same kind of biblical ignorance is all too present around the topic of homosexuality. Often people who love and trust God's Word have never given careful and prayerful attention to what the Bible does or doesn't say about homosexuality.
For example, many Christians don't know that:
* Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
* The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
* Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way -- and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.
Most people who are certain they know what the Bible says about homosexuality don't know where the verses that reference same-sex behavior can be found. They haven't read them, let alone studied them carefully. They don't know the original meaning of the words in Hebrew or Greek. And they haven't tried to understand the historical context in which those words were written. Yet the assumption that the Bible condemns homosexuality is passed down from generation to generation with very little personal study or research. The consequences of this misinformation are disastrous, not only for God's gay and lesbian children, but for the entire church.
Originally posted by la2
i'm sorry, but the bible is a piece of fiction.
I am a proud gay lad and if this book of fairytales dont like it then i dont care, i thought this was a conspiracy theory website not religious nuts anonymous!
Originally posted by CLPrime
Okay, being a preacher who never trusts modern (per)versions of Scripture, I have to reply to this. I usually stick to the Physics, but I'm temporarily crossing over. Do not take English translations at face value. Ever.
I wrote something regarding this and posted it as a note on Facebook a couple weeks ago. Here's what the Bible says:
No matter what you say, someone will always be offended by it. As members of the body of Christ, if we stop speaking whenever our words might spark outrage, we would be a silent, and ineffective, witness. We cannot spread His Word with our mouths shut, or with any regard for our own sensibilities and physical wellbeing. When something needs to be said, we must say it.
(To anyone who reads this: ignore the world and its influence, if just for these next few minutes. And, perhaps more importantly, ignore the assumptions and distortions that have permeated denominationalism for centuries. “He who has an ear, let him hear.”)
Today (February 1, 2011), Illinois legalized same-sex civil unions, joining several others that stop short of legalizing same-sex marriage. In Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont, as well as in the nation’s capital, same-sex marriages are legal. In contrast, 31 states have constitutionally restricted “marriage” to be between one man and one woman.
Outside the US, ten nations have federally acknowledged the legality of same sex marriages, including Canada, and many others are currently debating the topic. Whether the union, and marriage, of same-sex couples should be recognized is a hot topic, with strong opinions on all sides. Those who know me, however, know that there is only one side I’m interested in. So, let’s take a look at what that side has to say.
Fundamentalist Christians (and, in the political arena, Conservatives – together representing the Archie Bunkers of this world) are well-known for their vocal opposition to same-sex marriage, as well as homosexuality or gender reversal of any kind. I have a significant respect for anyone who passionately bases their views on Scripture. This is a rare trait, and, not coincidentally, it is also the only way to truly know where to stand. This also leads to an important detail: where the Bible is silent, we should also be silent. As Christians, our opinions on topics such as this can only be Biblically supported if, in fact, the Bible speaks of that topic. If God saw fit to overlook certain subjects, then why should we assert our own prejudices?
What we need to do, then, is take a serious look at what Scripture has to say concerning homosexuality and related issues. If the Bible presents a side, that is the side we should take; if the Bible is silent, then we have no right to speak anymore than our own opinions. If all we have, in the end, is opinion, then we have no right to use those opinions to influence the lives of others.
That being said, there are a couple go-to passages that almost any fundamentalist/Conservative Christian will immediately recite in opposition to same-sex marriage:
Leviticus 20:13 (KJV) – “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”
Deuteronomy 23:17 (KJV) – “There shall be no whore of the daughters of Israel, nor a sodomite of the sons of Israel.”
Romans 1:26–27 (KJV) – “For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.”
Jude 1:7 (KJV) – “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
Notice that two of these rely on an interpretation of what happened in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, which is described in Genesis 19. A thorough analysis of this event would be space-consuming, but even just an overview of that chapter leads to an interesting realization. Traditionally, we have been taught that the crime of these two cities was a grab-bag of sexual immorality. However, a re-read of what happened should reveal that this was, in fact, not what incurred God’s wrath. Genesis 19:12–13 reads, “And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.” This judgement was following an incident in which the people of the city were hostile against Lot, and was the pivotal moment that led to their destruction. Why? Because this was an exceptional violation of a very specific commandment: “Thou shalt neither vex a stranger, nor oppress him: for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt” (Exodus 22:21, KJV). The sin of Sodom was not of a sexual nature (although the land did represent much of what God detested in heathen nations); rather, it was a sin of antagonism against a stranger in their land. This is confirmed by Jesus, Himself, when he tells His apostles, “And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.” (Matthew 10:14–15). Just as Sodom and Gomorrha, the sin of those Jesus spoke of was a refusal to accept His people.
Consequently, the term “sodomite” has come to refer to someone who is sexually perverse, but this term is deceptive, and its use in Deuteronomy 23:17 is, therefore, also deceptive. The original Hebrew word which is translated as “sodomite” in this case is qadesh. Note that this has no connection with the name Sodom, which is from S(e)dom. Qadesh, instead, refers specifically to male prostitutes engaging in ritualistic sex in Pagan temples. It has no homosexual connotations and to be translated as such is a distortion of Scripture.
Additionally, the feminine equivalent of qadesh, quedeshaw, is often (loosely, but more accurately) translated as “whore”. This clearly has no homosexual connotations.
This leaves a pair of passages: those in Leviticus and Romans.
The two verses in Romans are the key Scripture used to present an anti-homosexual stand based in the New Testament. When we read them, however, two things need to be taken into consideration. The first is the context in which they were written. The second is the use of the word “nature”.
First, the author of Romans was writing at a time in which homosexuality and, to an even greater extent, bisexuality were rampant within the Roman Empire, especially within the persistent Pagan temples of those who had already heard the Word of God.
Second, what was the “nature” of those who practised this form of gender-bending? Obviously, this nature was that of heterosexuality. But, the significance of this can only be seen when we combine this with the context of the passage. When we do this, we see that the writer of Romans was not condemning homosexuality. He was, however, condemning the homosexuality present in Pagan temples, which was for the purpose of prostitution and went against the nature of those practicing it. These were “straight” men acting “gay” for the purpose of making money within the temples of Pagan gods; this was not an explicit condemnation of individuals who were (or are, even today) homosexual by nature.
Finally, in Leviticus, we have an explicit pronouncement of death should any man “also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman.” Save for the death penalty, this is a reiteration of Leviticus 18:22. Admittedly, the simplest interpretation of this Scripture, taking both the context and the original language into consideration, remains one of anti-homosexual sentiment. Here, it is clearly stated that a man who “lies” with a man as with a woman is guilty of an “abomination”. Regardless of the definition of “abomination”, the meaning is obvious, but, for the sake of utmost clarity, let’s dig a little deeper.
What, exactly, is an “abomination”? The Hebrew word here is to’ebah. This carries a connotation of Pagan condemnation, and suggests that the cause for condemnation was ritualistic uncleanness. Whether something was “clean” or “unclean” was of utmost importance to the nation of Israel under the Old Covenant.
Why was it important whether something was clean or unclean? Because the actions of the Israelites were ultimately the source of their salvation. They performed ritualistic sacrifice to cleanse themselves of sin. Anyone who was not cleansed in this way was guilty of violating the Law, as were those who brought unclean acts into the land of Israel. Therefore, anything that was unclean was called to’ebah – an abomination.
What else was unclean? Here are just a few examples:
pork, shrimp, and lobster (Leviticus 11);
menstruation, any bodily discharge of fluid, and anything or anyone these fluids came into contact with (Leviticus 15);
meat with blood, crossbreeding, shaving, and tattoos (Leviticus 19).
And this is where the vast majority of Christians fail to understand the significance of Jesus and the New Covenant. We no longer live under the Law. Today, we live under Grace, and our actions are no longer a means to salvation. Instead, our salvation rests on the death, burial, and resurrection of the Son of God. It no longer matters whether a thing or action is clean or unclean. What matters now is faith, repentance, and baptism into the Kingdom of God.
How can we effectively testify to that Grace if we spend our time and effort decrying varying definitions of gender and judging individuals who are living according to their nature (recall Romans 1:26–27)? Homosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals, and heterosexuals all live their lives by this nature, and to deny all but the social “norm” the most basic of rights – the right to be free in the mind and body they were given – is not in the job description of God’s people. This is our duty: to encourage all people to be faithful in the work God has for each of us. Anything beyond that is insolence to the Grace of God and the saving power of His Son.
Oh, regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, their sin was inhospitality. The traditions of these tribes, being accustomed to a dangerously arid and lifeless landscape, held the visitor as sacred. They were to be fed and cared for. The locals wish to rape the "angels" was the ultimate manifestation of inhospitality. Lot's goodness was proven by him inviting the angels into his home, feeding them, and even going to the farthest extreme; offering the mob his daughters to rape in order to keep his guests safe.
Originally posted by Layla
reply to post by Rockstrongo37
CLPrime is the only person I see in this thread so far that actually shows knowledge of the Bible and shows that he actually studied it. Neither you, nor the OP have provided any of your OWN analysis of the scripture.
I know the Bible pretty well, and no, I don't claim to be a preacher nor did I ever go to seminary school, but in 9 years of private school, where we studied the Bible every day, as well as many many years of attending church and listening to the ordained ministers, the instances of me interpretting the Book differently then what was being told to me from the pulpit were greater than not. Just because CLPrime's interpretation doesnt match with what some other preachers have been spewing for years does not make it incorrect.
Deny ignorance, remember?
Originally posted by MentorsRiddle
What I'm saying is I don't care what John MacArthur said.
He is not Christ - never will be Christ - Can't compare to Christ.
I care what Christ said - What Christ did.
I don't remember seeing a scripture that said, "Behold, Christ came upon a homo and hated him. Scorned him and told him he's going to hell. Threw rocks at him and called all those who would come to hate the homo."