Why Not Use Hydrogen as the World's Commercial Fuel?, page 2

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ATS Members have flagged this thread 9 times

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:18 AM by kon1foundas

reply to post by James1982

"Using wind farms, solar, or wave power to produce hydrogen, which then fuels cars would work this is very true! This would be a much cleaner way to power our vehicles."

"BUT, and this is the important part. If you had an electric car, and took that energy you produced via wind, solar, waves, you would have more energy, because producing hydrogen does nothing but change 100 "units" of electrical energy into less than 100 "units" of hydrogen energy."

So by this reasoning electricity, channeled into car battery cells, would be a more worthwhile energy source.

I really do think I get it. My original comments were not just about the fuel itself. It was about the need to have a better fuel than petrol or gas. I really can't see many nations going to war over an abundant and better fuel source that any country could produce. Both world wars had something to do with controlling oil reserves and so did many other wars.

Fuel should be an incidental part of an economy. It should not be controlled like it is and stifle growth and cause inflation and lots of the conflicts we're now seeing around the world.

If ocean-wind power and ocean current power doesn't really cost much (once it's up and running) and if there is plenty of hydrogen around in oceans, then what is the real problem? Won't you have enough hydrogen through this processes to last a lot longer than the age of oil? Isn't there enough wind and hydrogen to last and last? Are you really going to worry that more (abundant) energy from wind/currents went into producing energy from hydrogen, that's abundant too? Really? When it is basically there (wind, currents, hydrogen)?

Just think of the costs associated with oil; political, economic, inflationary, wars etc etc.

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:31 AM by leaualorin

reply to post by kon1foundas

this is a mockery !
A REALL OFENCE TO HUMANS!
Bob lazar...
give me a break...

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:33 AM by James1982

Hey I didn't realize this was an Introduction post, sorry for being so harsh I didn't realize! Welcome to ATS don't let me scare you off

Anyway, like you said Hydrogen would be good in the sense it would be clean compared to fossil fuels. It's just the issue of cost, it's very expensive because not only do you need to produce the electricity in the first place (that could just directly power a car) but then you have to produce the hydrogen on top of that. Someone else mentioned the issues with storing and transporting it, which is also true.

If we were able to generate a lot of electricity cheaply, then I think Hydrogen cars could really become a widespread reality. But sadly most of our electricity is expensive and comes from burning fossil fuels, so it's just such a long chain or production nothing is gained by using Hydrogen.

But we can always hope for a breakthrough to gain efficiency in solar cells, or wind power etc. Or cold fusion

I know if my choice was a Hydro car or electric car, I'd much rather have a Hydrogen one, everything else being equal.

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:34 AM by kon1foundas

reply to post by leaualorin

But let's say it was someone else (an American Idol winner or someone popular) and you saw the clip, what then? Was it any good? Did it work?

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:38 AM by leaualorin

reply to post by Cosmic4life

Like STANLEY MEYER DID , right?
And he "suddenly " died from etc...

Stanley Meyer's water car's first run
www.youtube.com...

All this world is ENERGY !
EVERYTHING "breaks apart" at some "frequency" !
EVEN A STEEL BRIDGE !
And you don't need 10 kg of TNT to do that!
Of course no one whants HUMANITY FREE TO DO ANYTHING , FREE FROM TAXES , FREE FROM POVERTY AND ETC...
Those are "our dear leaders" from today and since day one of this world...
MAYBE EXCEPT JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY!
I must tell to the person that started this topic :
please watch GEORGE W. BUSH IN THE EYES when he says that "hydrogen is the future energy source" and I BET YOU WILL FEEL OFFENCED!
And if you don't , then you have a psychological problem...

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:41 AM by James1982

Double post... I don't know how that happened. If a mod sees this, please delete.

edit on 1-3-2011 by James1982 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:41 AM by leaualorin

reply to post by prof7

OR , from the ionosphere!
LOTS OF ENERGY THERE 24/7 365 DAYS A YEAR...
OH , and the sun releases in every second enough energy to power THE WHOLE USA FOR 90000 YEARS!
Please do keep that in mind!

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:44 AM by leaualorin

Originally posted by kon1foundas
reply to post by leaualorin

But let's say it was someone else (an American Idol winner or someone popular) and you saw the clip, what then? Was it any good? Did it work?

I'm not gonna waste any more time with you!
Power your car with hydrogen and be happy!
Good day!

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:52 AM by James1982

reply to post by leaualorin

I'm a little confused about your philosophy here. Using Hydrogen is evil.....or? I'm a bit lost.

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 05:58 AM by leaualorin

reply to post by James1982

using hydrogen is STUPID (and evil if you wish ... )

I actually am sure that if you really whant phisical transportation USE ELECTRICITY !
And the reality is that ELECTRICITY MIGHT BE ALL AROUND US , but we lack the "know-how" to use it!

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 06:01 AM by kon1foundas

reply to post by James1982

"Hey I didn't realize this was an Introduction post, sorry for being so harsh I didn't realize! Welcome to ATS don't let me scare you off " Hey, I'm loving this forum.

"Anyway, like you said Hydrogen would be good in the sense it would be clean compared to fossil fuels. It's just the issue of cost, it's very expensive because not only do you need to produce the electricity in the first place (that could just directly power a car) but then you have to produce the hydrogen on top of that. Someone else mentioned the issues with storing and transporting it, which is also true. " Oil too has it's vices, complications and expenses, but this is where you could market hydrogen, put it on the Mercantile Exchange and sell it as a worthwhile commodity. Wind and currents are free! So most of your costs are down. But people will, as we can see with oil, pay a premium for energy. I'd be on the back of that trade.

"If we were able to generate a lot of electricity cheaply, then I think Hydrogen cars could really become a widespread reality. But sadly most of our electricity is expensive and comes from burning fossil fuels, so it's just such a long chain or production nothing is gained by using Hydrogen." Use ocean currents and ocean winds. Compete with coal etc and knock it off the market in decades. Drilling, processing, shipping etc oil is still expensive. The lack of supply makes it even more expensive.

"But we can always hope for a breakthrough to gain efficiency in solar cells, or wind power etc. Or cold fusion I know if my choice was a Hydro car or electric car, I'd much rather have a Hydrogen one, everything else being equal."

I try to convince people at work etc that energy should be an incidental part of the economy. It shouldn't be controlled like OPEC, speculators and governments do. It should be made available to power industries and ingenuity, so as not to go through recessions etc. And now governments want to impose carbon taxes which defeats the whole purpose of getting up in the morning and wanting to work hard at whatever project your working on to make life better for you, you family, your fellow citizens and the future of mankind.

I'm looking forward to not hearing another government sponsored debate on global warming! Let's just get out there and do the best at what we're all uniquely good at and not worry about things that will side-track us (worrying about wars, conflicts, energy costs and issues like ozone depletion).

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 06:15 AM by James1982

Originally posted by leaualorin
reply to post by James1982

using hydrogen is STUPID (and evil if you wish ... )
I actually am sure that if you really whant phisical transportation USE ELECTRICITY !
And the reality is that ELECTRICITY MIGHT BE ALL AROUND US , but we lack the "know-how" to use it!

I was just going by when you said "please watch GEORGE W. BUSH IN THE EYES when he says that "hydrogen is the future energy source" and I BET YOU WILL FEEL OFFENCED" Made it seem like there was some sort of evil agenda behind Hydrogen.

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 06:20 AM by kon1foundas

reply to post by Shuzitzu

"I'm sure this has certainly already been thought of in the same context. In no way am I disputing your idealogical thinking, keep it up!! You might end up revolutionizing everything and making a fortune!! "

It's been thought of before and before. It's just another energy source (the most abundant).

"Hydrogen is simply way too expensive to extract on a large scale and requires the waste of many other materials meaning further problems for the environment i.e. where to dispose of the waste."

Power/energy from the ocean to convert hydrogen can come in the form of ocean-wind power and ocean current power, and that part is powerful, abundant (never ending) and free! The rest will cost, but people, companies, governments etc will pay for energy anyway. It has to cost something for it to be marketable. Oil sill costs a lot to produce, refine, ship etc etc.

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 06:41 AM by Thepreye

Originally posted by prof7

The sea. H2O. It can easily be extracted

No, it can NOT be easily extracted. You need more energy to extract it than you gain from burning it. Where should all the energy come from?

I'm not prepared to search for links so just throwing this out there, didn't a uni in Japan I think, maybe UK, develop a new splitting method last year which used a cheaper metal than Platinum and a lower use of electricity that made the process over 200% more efficient.

I saw a thread on ATS at the time and posted that I thought if true it would be a paradigm shifting event.

Welcome to the board OP.

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 10:13 AM by malcr

Originally posted by leaualorin
reply to post by kon1foundas

NO!
because using hydrogen as a every-day fuel IS STUPID!
It costs more to produce hydrogen than what you get out of it!
Only N-ever A S-traight A-nswer >NASA affords this "luxury" in its rockets...
The solution was long ago discovered but the SATANIC "LEADERS"/CRIMINALS never whant this!
Solar power and efficient transportation of electric curent is the way!
Needless to say , EVERYTHING IS DONE BACKWARDS AND AGAINST ANY DECENCY...
THE WORST WAY IS THE "GOOD WAY" according to our "leaders"...

edit on 1-3-2011 by leaualorin because: (no reason given)

But solar and electric cannot be effectively used for personal transportation. The energy has to be stored in heavy batteries. Now if you use solar (desert regions near the coast) as the energy source to produce hydrogen you have your transportation fuel. So what if it does take more energy, its solar and there's plenty of it!!!

No arguments about electricity as the domestic fuel generated from solar,wind,wave etc

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 10:42 AM by leaualorin

"boyz and gals" , watch this and forget about that bull ... HYDROGEN...
gm sunraycer : 2 HP electric engine , 100 km/h ACROSS AUSTRALIA and just with solar power and a battery "just in case" or if a plus in speed was wanted!
ENJOY :
www1.teachertube.com...
And I REALLY HOPE you are aware of the North africa project :

www.spiegel.de...

" The left square, labelled "world," is around the size of Austria. If that area were covered in solar thermal power plants, it could produce enough electricity to meet world demand. The area in the center would be required to meet European demand. The one on the right corresponds to Germany's energy demand. "

Solar energy IS ACTUALLY FREE ENERGY right in your eyes (literaly)...
W T F HUMAN BEEINGS?!

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 10:53 AM by 46ACE

Originally posted by kon1foundas
Yes, why would the oil companies give what they've got up. So take the fight to them. That's what the essence of a capitalist system is (or it use to be). Just compete. It will eventually be the commercial fuel of the world, even if it doesn't take-off for decades.

Part of the process of refining or extracting hydrogen will be costly, but that's what a commodity needs to create value and jobs! The process of investing, spending and making money will not be any different from refining oil. It will add to the value of this important commodity.

Hydrogen can be used in a normal combustion engine like gas, with some modification and it will be like a fuel that has water as the main byproduct. No pollution and no need to listen to any more talk on global warming!

Energy should be used incidentally for work; to keep the economy going full steam ahead, without worrying about harming the environment etc. This way you can have full employment or close to full employment. Energy should be cheap so you can reinforce growth in an economy. Hydrogen will be the way to do this.

Great to be a member.

Welcome!
Your first thread opens a whole interesting topic for another thread : the basic myths and mis- information thoroughly saturating society..(No offense butplease allow me to point out a few things):

Hydrogen as used in fuel cells is an "energy carrier" not a source. The "water vapor exhaust" comes from fuel cell equipped vehicles and not burning in any internal combustion engined ones.

the fuel cell model is really simple "kids" and it illustrates the "carrier" term:

You go get water (put energy into a pump/ or carry a bucket from the pond

Run a current of electricity through the water( electrolysis). The electricity comes from the "grid" generated by coal or nuclear ,wind hydro etc...
In the process the water molecule is split into its two basic parts(remember: H2O?) oxygen and hydrogen atoms;

collect the hydrogen atoms:

TRY to compress it and store it.Which has a whole raft of other problems: Hydrogen atoms are so basic and small its hard to keep them corralled in tanks; they work their way through steel And cause the metals to become brittle.

You put this extracted hydrogen into a fuel cell to reverse the whole process:
It re-combines with oxygen from the air in the "membrane" and the"original" electricity is returned ( minus losses from all the different processes it goes through) along with a few drops of liquid water.

You just carried the electricity from the commercial power stations ( municipal water pumps and electrolysis and compressors) to an electric motor running down the interstate. And I'm ALL for electric cars! VERY FEW MOVING Parts hundreds of thousands of hours; service free( low/no maintenance) use.
The"hydrogen economy was going to save us" was a hyped slogan a few years ago,alternative "energy researchers" have backed away from it.
new caveat:
Not a "dis-info agent" of any kind: just frustrated to live in a world where people who advocate or make policy drink in and spread the "hype."

edit on 1-3-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 11:10 AM by Unity_99

Originally posted by Cosmic4life
Aint gonna happen..

Peak oil is a myth cooked up to make you pay more.

This planet is awash with oil...and the distribution network is already there.

Hydrogen costs a lot to produce and is a nightmare to store and distribute.

Now if you could come up with something that breaks down water that can be fitted to your car then you might have something to break the oil cartel...if they don't break your neck and steal your invention that is.

Cosmic...

Bob Lazar's video is suggesting something else. It isn't about storing the hydrogen, the system in the vehicle creates the hydrogen from WATER.

It does it safely. The tanks can be sawed, in half with chain saws, and impacted, lit on fire, and they only smolder, unlike gas tanks. The amount of hydrogen running in the system as a combustible gas at any given moment is small.

So,what is being said here, is not so much, storing the hydrogen, distributing the hydrogen, as simply having a mechanical system in place.

This works best with the electric car model obviously. Good battery storage of the power.

How that electricity is generated is another question altogether.

Wind/Solar/Geo Thermal/Tide even earth gives off electrical charge, is one thing.

I personally believe Free energy will replace all of these if people start to work on projects in their own workshops, which coincidently, I feel is urgently needed in every community. Hands on workshops with teenagers, and trades people, retired guys with garages and tools. Lets build a generator day, each week. Lots of fun. And it should be done, adopting a village overseas, with the same idea, of creating energy, water, tools, and food for people.

edit on 1-3-2011 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 11:40 AM by nrd101

i think hydrogen as a fuel source is coming. just hook up a solar panel to a water converter. in home units for all. I mean are electric cars really that great when u still have to put electricity from a coal plant in them? and I already have solar panels powering my house...

reply posted on 1-3-2011 @ 11:43 AM by leaualorin

reply to post by nrd101

you boys have a problem at the HEAD!
instead of using DIRECTLY the electric energy you think it's better to take the energy from a solar panel that has an efficiency of MAYBE 18-25 % , then use it to "crack" the water , THEN USE THE HYDROGEN TO DO WHAT?!
...

I rest my case...

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