Derren Brown Messiah / How to convert an Atheist into a Christian by touch a must watch for all ATS

reply to post by adjensen


Mainly you are right.

Quote: ["As I said earlier, these sort of theatrics are only practiced by a small segment of Christians --"]

Though limited, my experience of christian practises would lead me to agree with you. But....

Quote: ["I've never seen a faith healing or person fall over in church, and as I only attend Methodist and Catholic churches, I doubt that I ever will."]

Neither have I seen anyone fall over in a christian context, but I HAVE seen theatrics in our local pentacostal congregation. Where I also have experienced some rather bitter (and ignorant) attacks on buddhism (I'm not a buddhist). As a somewhat successful amateur reiki-healer myself, I know for a fact, that whatever extent and effectivity reiki-healing has, it's not depending on any divine participation (here it's the monopoly claim I reject).

I have (firsthand) in other, non-christian, religious contexts seen people fall over or very openly being hypnotized in their thousands. Kind of scary.

I don't think my comments here would lead to much disagreement between us. My own target-group for criticism of extremist christians is the interfering, monopoly seeking missionaries (including a society-context). To whom I don't count you these days, after we've got most of the initial conflict behind us.

I can't look at web-videos, so practically all of these famous persons being talked about here are outside my competence. I can only relate to texts, and besides I often find this concentration on key-persons uninteresting. Some basic sources are ofcourse necessary most of the time, but I prefer to evaluate the material myself.

Double posting

Originally posted by bogomil
Neither have I seen anyone fall over in a christian context, but I HAVE seen theatrics in our local pentacostal congregation.

I debated mentioning Pentecostals, because they definitely have an aspect of the theatrical in them, but I have a couple of friends who were raised Pentecostal (though are now Methodist) and I've talked to them about the whole "speaking in tongues" bit and they seemed rather sincere in their belief that it was on the up and up. Having never witnessed it, I have no opinion, but without my friends' testimony, I'd be rather skeptical.

I heard recently that the Pentecostals are the fastest growing denomination, particularly in Latin America. I suspect that speaking in tongues plays no small part in that.

reply to post by adjensen


We risk getting off-topic, but this is interesting.

I was once a participating observer in a group called Subud (it had very slight connections to islam, but basically being 'independent'). This group had its own 'holy spirit' experience (called Latihan) AND they talked in tongues or just made sounds.

For me the direct experience was authentic (as compared to many other 'initiations' I've had, which seemed fakes). I e.g. also tried the pentacostal version of holy spirit: Nothing. This is ofcourse not a conclusive validation of the pentacostal claims.

Originally posted by bogomil
For me the direct experience was authentic (as compared to many other 'initiations' I've had, which seemed fakes). I e.g. also tried the pentacostal version of holy spirit: Nothing. This is ofcourse not a conclusive validation of the pentacostal claims.

I agree that experiences such as yours and my Pentecostal friends are interesting, probably because I have nothing to compare it to. Methodists are a pretty staid bunch -- apart from a lot of singing and potlucks, the experience lacks the fervour of the more charismatic groups. When I go to Catholic Mass, it's even less so, since no one sings.

So I always took the speaking in tongues thing with a grain of salt, because it seemed a bit... well, opportunistic... that it happened with regularity in some congregations, and never in others. But after talking to my friends, I give it a bit more credibility, because their description of the experience, not only being the one speaking, but being one who interprets, leaves me with the impression that it's not just people making noise for attention. Even if it's not something supernatural, they're convinced that it is.

Of course, Brown demonstrates that you can convince someone of anything with the proper set up and act, but one of the two is a preacher's kid, and she never mentioned her father having special training in duping his flock.

But, like I said, it's not my background, and I doubt that I'll ever experience it, so I'll just take my friends' word (and yours) that such experiences can happen, and feel very real, and not worry about it. Thanks for sharing that.

adjensen

Of course, Brown demonstrates that you can convince someone of anything with the proper set up and act, but one of the two is a preacher's kid, and she never mentioned her father having special training in duping his flock.

Lol. How much "special training" do you think it takes ?

Brown's performance is based on managing several "little things" to accomplish an effect that he can pass off as a "big thing." That's not a criticism of him, it's his job, and he does it well.

(In fact, Brown's signature is the true simplicity of his tricks, much as Penn & Teller's signature is that they tell you how the trick works, and it still works anyway. Brown's "explanations" alternate between his basking in that true simplicity and, especially in his elaborate pseudo-psychology monologues, simply being patter that is "part of the act.")

There is probably not one of those "little things" that you don't know, it's just that maybe you don't know you know it, or you don't notice it being used, or don't recognize its importance to the overall effect when you see it being used.

For example, and I am working from the Youtube version, we can probably agree that the first subject, the woman, is a paid confederate. If you have had any experience in the theater at all, then you recognize their little set-piece as the sort of thing that is done by actors in workshops and classes all the time. OK, so the audience who is on to it leaves (which Brown will announce as being because of their discomfort with that happened... yeah, discomfort is one word for having any background at all in theater).

So what did Brown pay her for? To influence the other subjects? Yes, everyone is on notice what is expected of them. But she is also there for our benefit, isn't she? Brown doesn't tell us that he paid her, so she's a "hit." More important for the overall effect, I think, she has provided the ingredient that is missing from the rest of the performance: some connection, any explicit connection at all, to religious belief and belief change.

OK, of the "genuine" subjects, the ones who stay after the intermission, what is the single most important thing Brown says to them, to all of them? You know the answer, but I'll bet you don't know you know.

Stand up and put your feet together.

We need hardly invoke either woo-woo psychology or charisms of the Holy Spirit to predict that people typically will, when asked, stand up and put their feet together. And they will keep standing with their feet together indefinitely. And from that fact alone, their eventual falling over is inevitable.

Brown need only communicate to them that he prefers them to fall backward rather than forward. Having a chair behind them, or standing behind the first subject after a quick word about what a good falling-person-catcher Brown is, suffices.

That's it. That's the "trick." Everything else is stagey window dressing.

Well, one of the "else's" is something that you might pick up in law school, instead of the theater:

Brown: What are you feeling now? Be honest.

Subject (having just toppled onto the floor): Wow, I feel so weird, so different inside....

Brown: You felt God, then? I'm not trying to put words into your mouth... but you're trying to say it was like some, as if something religious...

Subject: Maybe it was something like that, like what the girl said, I....

Brown: Thank you very much.

Give me a break.

So, on to what I quoted of yours. Your friend's father could do this and not know he is doing it. That's how simple it is. He could blunder into doing it.

Intentional deception is not the issue. Unintentional deception is easy, reliable, and even more likely to avoid detection indefinitely than the intentional variety. I mean a preacher's kid, talking about her dad? It's the Protestant equivalent of a car full of nuns. Of course they are being truthful. These are women of God!

Derren Brown uses a system called nuro-linguistic programming (NLP) which includes Ericksonian hypnosis, there a ton of books on it that are well worth reading, once you know how its done it can no longer be easily done to you

Religions use many of these tricks, for example closing your eyes (which put you into a suggestible alpha state) and then listening to some programmer instructions – this trick is sometimes called prayer has been used for years

Another example, a Jehovah’s Witness asked me “what do I think will happen when Jesus returns?”
Note: this is a simple ploy, the ideas is to frame the question in such a way as to get the answer you want, so I would have to buy into his “Jesus returns” thing to answer him

My response was to ask him what specifically makes you believe in this proposition that Jesus might return?

Originally posted by eight bits
Intentional deception is not the issue. Unintentional deception is easy, reliable, and even more likely to avoid detection indefinitely than the intentional variety. I mean a preacher's kid, talking about her dad? It's the Protestant equivalent of a car full of nuns. Of course they are being truthful. These are women of God!

lol, good point, and, truth be told, I never asked her about it, so maybe he did have special training in psychological manipulation

I don't really have an issue with Derren Brown, apart from what I've noted, nor with similar acts like Penn and Teller (whom I personally don't like, because often they are intentionally cruel,) because they are entertainment, and so long as it's viewed as such, that's fine.

It's when said entertainment is promoted as "How to convert an Atheist into a Christian", when the video neither shows "how", nor does it show anyone being converted into a Christian, that it becomes baseless propaganda, and that's what I have a problem with.

reply to post by racasan


You wrote:

["Another example, a Jehovah’s Witness asked me “what do I think will happen when Jesus returns?”
Note: this is a simple ploy, the ideas is to frame the question in such a way as to get the answer you want, so I would have to buy into his “Jesus returns” thing to answer him"]

Good observation. These 'doublebinds' are used all the time on ATS by missionary demagogues.

I enjoy Derren Brown's performances, but he is just another magician. His other shows have him pretend that his heartbeat can be stopped for minutes at a time whilst he walks over glass and has assistants step on his head and back whilst his face is pushed to the glass that he just walked through ([pulse-less - as it were] after just having a plastic bag put over his head to help stop his heart.)
You do simply have to realize that it's a show people. An invitation to the suspension of disbelief which you allow.

e.g. Does anyone actually believe that David Copperfield can make a space shuttle disappear from behind a curtain WITHOUT the use of a revolving stage and a host of 30 or so amazed looking accomplices as audience?

Bottom line is it's just a show.

reply to post by The Djin


As always, skeptics are saying "We can fake it, so it must be fake whenever it occurs." An obvious illogic. Can he cure people of total renal failure, as a Christian healer did my mother when she was nine years old?
And what has happened since a huge part of America abandoned Christian morals? What was the rate of pre-teen alcohol and drug use when this was a Christian nation? What was the rate of illegitimate, unwanted births? What was the rate of high school graduation? Violent crime?
Way to go, your side is winning. Soon we will be completely "free".
To slightly paraphrase Joseph Sobran, we used to teach Latin in high school, now we teach remedial English in college.
edit- Would most people rather live now, when you can pick up a magazine which portrays underage girls as sex objects, and you can get heroin on main street, or in a previous decade when you could find a job easily and didn't have to be worried about being shot while taking a walk down the block?
edit 2- Show me a non-Christian nation that is doing well, that has done well. That is technologically advanced, where the people are more than slaves. When you cut out the idea of a soul, and punishment for wrongdoing, there really is no reason not to rape kids, blow your neighbor away over a trifle, kill someone for money. After all, they're just random arrangements of dead matter. Life is just the illusion of life, right?

reply to post by The Djin


With proper preparations, most people with some degree of intellect could fake rain, clinical death, the sunrise, just about anything. Does that disprove that these things occur in nature? Would it be more convincing if it were tied to the promise that you could do anything you wanted and "get away with it" after death?

Originally posted by The DjinHere, the amazing Derren Brown completely debunking Christianity, Alien abduction powers, Psychic Mediums, Remote Viewing etc.

I've posted this in conspiracies in religion as my main interest is exposing the Christian delusion for what it is, a conspiracy to defraud and control the gullible,ignorant and poor of the world.

Christianity is used as such, not coincidentally - by people who think just as you do, that it is a delusion. Look in the mind of a faithless preacher using Christianity to make money, you'll find an ideological clone of your hero.

Nihilism

"1. (philosophy) Extreme skepticism, maintaining that nothing has a real existence.
2. (ethics) The rejection of all moral principles.
3. ...holding that conditions in the social organization are so bad as to make destruction desirable for its own sake, independent of any constructive program or possibility.
4. The belief that all endeavors are ultimately futile and devoid of meaning."

Nihilism is exactly what a lack of faith leads to. As we can see all around us. People, and the world we live in, are just means to be used to make money.

reply to post by bogomil


Keep in mind also the sole way in which people like this make money - by deceiving others. By tricking them into believing things that are not true or real. But they are the arbiters of reality, right?