All these "free energy" threads...

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posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 07:50 AM
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Can they be moved to Skunk Works? I really can’t see how they belong in the S&T forum as they clearly aren’t science or technology as they have neither undergone evaluation using scientific method nor have they been demonstrated to work. I’m all good for discussion but it’s the same pattern in every thread, namely the usual cargo cult science and unsubstantiated claims coupled with a complete lack of scientific understanding. There's a whole forum for this sort of stuff, it really doesn't belong here.

/rant over




posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 08:34 AM
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...Your total lack of understanding shows.

It should be on the front page, sticky on top of every news or education forum. This should be a political stand, a core value of any curious mind.
Will all this stuff works ? Maybe not. Maybe some will. BUT we need to investigate and the PTB clearly won't.
So educate, deny ignorance.

We have to make noise, and to fight robot silencer like you. Anyways, you're have been unmasked:
www.alternet.org...



edit on 28-2-2011 by flybine because: (no reason given)
edit on 28-2-2011 by flybine because: ttypinnh erorrrs and english translation from foreign -subversious- language



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 08:38 AM
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reply to post by john_bmth
 


You are right, such extraordinary claims need to be backed up by extraordinary evidence. I've never seen any evidence for any of these free energy systems and I doubt the evidence is there to be honest.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 03:20 PM
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I agree that most of them belong on the junk pile, but who is to decide? The danger is throwing out the baby with the bath water. Items like genetically modified plants that produce diesel fuel could be mistaken for "free energy" articles. It's better to simply ignore the nuissance items and hope they will go away.

By the way, I have a new "invention" to produce free energy. We can all reduce by our grocery bills to zero by eating our own ****. Isn't that the same as an engine that generates its own energy.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 06:11 PM
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Originally posted by john_bmth
... they clearly aren’t science or technology as they have neither undergone evaluation using scientific method nor have they been demonstrated to work.


Well... at the risk of calling you [at best] uninformed, or maybe just plain ignorant, let me instead present you with just one example.
Mr. Wang and his magnetic motor, which clearly IS science/technology and IT HAS undergone evaluation using scientific method AND IT HAS been demonstrated to work, literally hundreds of times.
Introduction to magnet power.
Check out the plans in this PDF.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by SuperManny
Mr. Wang and his magnetic motor, which clearly IS science/technology and IT HAS undergone evaluation using scientific method AND IT HAS been demonstrated to work, literally hundreds of times.

Extraordinary proof of overunity claims, please, or keep it to Skunk Works.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by SuperManny
 


What, you've seen it work in a video on U-Tube? I have yet to see anything claiming to be 'free energy' or 'zero point' or any such malarchy proven before a board of qualified engineers or scientists. I don't care how many uneducated people (and that's not a slur) get on here and say that this tech is real, the truth is there is no way around the fundamental laws of physics.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 10:39 PM
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reply to post by john_bmth
 
At the rate these threads have been created lately, there have been enough to have a separate "alternate and free energy" forum.

If you narrow the definition of free energy to one definition (perpetual motion/over unity/vacuum energy) most people know that's skunk works type stuff, since those gadgets have been proposed for centuries without success.

But other alternate energy sources don't violate the laws of physics, like wind power, wave power, solar cells, miniature thorium powered generators. And the latest cold fusion research from the US Navy while still inconclusive is somewhat interesting since the claim to have found high energy neutrons, an interesting discovery that has me curious about the source, even if it's not from low energy nuclear reactions.

My favorite is the Atmos clock, which runs off of thin air, it sure looks like "free energy" but it depends on how you define "free energy".

So I think there may be enough material to justify a separate forum for alternate energy.I noticed there's an energy related forum called "peak oil" here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

It seems to me like alternate energy topics would dovetail nicely with the peak oil topic. And that forum has less than 1000 threads, so expanding it to include related topics might make sense? And I see it already has some alternate energy threads like this one:

Alternative energy sources... which are best to support?

Maybe renaming the "peak oil" forum to "Peak oil/alternative energy" would clarify that alternative energy topics should go there? At least it would get them out of the science and technology forum.

Just a thought.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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Originally posted by john_bmth
Extraordinary proof of overunity claims, please, or keep it to Skunk Works.

Yes, indeed, "extraordinary proof of overunity".

"Two of Mr Wang’s 5 kilowatt generators successfully completed the Chinese government’s mandatory six-month “Reliability and Safety” testing program in April 2008"

HELLO!! they were tested by the chinese government!! for 6 months!!

And a miniature working model was demonstrated and put on public display at the Shanghai World Expo from 1st May 2010 to 31st October 2010.

I mean... come on! What more do you want??



Originally posted by wtbengineer
reply to post by SuperManny
 
I have yet to see anything claiming to be 'free energy' or 'zero point' or any such malarchy proven before a board of qualified engineers or scientists. I don't care how many uneducated people (and that's not a slur) get on here and say that this tech is real, the truth is there is no way around the fundamental laws of physics.


OK, but just for the record... I never called it "... 'free energy' or 'zero point' or any such malarchy..." so with all due respect, I think you're barking up the wrong tree.

This is a 5 kilowatt generator that runs off the power of permanent magnets.

Did you even read the links before posting?

And if you're waiting for a "board of qualified engineers or scientists." I'd seriously just advise you to give up now, because this kind of technology will NEVER come from there.

The biggest breakthroughs always come from people who do NOT have degrees in science or engineering because they "know" all the ways it ain't gonna work.
They'll come from people like Stan Meyer, John Hutchison, Nikola Tesla, etc.

Anyhow that's just my 2¢... please feel free to form your own opinion.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 11:13 PM
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Trust me, I have tried arguing with these people here on ATS many a time with 0 success. You can't convince the uneducated that free energy / perpetual motion / zero point machines do not exist. Unfortunately armchair engineering has no place in the real world.


(and for the record magnetic motors work but there is absolutely nothing magical about it and they certainly are not perpetual.)



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 11:59 PM
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Me too, have some serious problems with the definitions!!

a) Free Energy

b) Zero Point Energy

And in my tiny bubble they are NOT THE SAME...

Free Energy = Energy free of charge
Energy wich you DO NOT have to pay auxilary charges for. YES it cost
to buy initially. But after that ITS FREE...

Zero Point Energy = Energy that seemingly or FACT comes from nothing.
It cant be "created", only harnesed and used.

Its like the definition of U.F.O...

For some its little green men i a sauser...
For me its UNKNOWN FLYING OBJECT, PERIOD...

UFO is not like the bible, with 1000s and 1000 of views..
Its plain and simple something UNKNOWN..So how can it be
Aliens in a ship...

FREE ENERGY, is just that ENERGY THAT IS FREE...
ZERO POINT ENERGY, is energy that comes from nowere...
edit on 1-3-2011 by Miccey because: spellcheck



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:36 AM
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Originally posted by SuperManny
"Two of Mr Wang’s 5 kilowatt generators successfully completed the Chinese government’s mandatory six-month “Reliability and Safety” testing program in April 2008"

And a miniature working model was demonstrated and put on public display at the Shanghai World Expo from 1st May 2010 to 31st October 2010.
Was it still classified "top secret" while on public display as peswiki suggests? Isn't that a contradiction?

peswiki.com...:Wang_Shum_Ho_Generator

Wang Shen He magnet motor freed from Chinese 'top secret' restrictions - Having received funding from the Chinese Government and State Electricity Companies, Wang Shen He's generators (1 kW and 5 kW), that use coupling of ferro-liquid and permanent magnets, were classified 'top secret.' However, that status changed recently. (PESWiki; December 13, 2010)



I mean... come on! What more do you want??
How about the academic validation mentioned on peswiki:


The Wang Shum Ho Prototype Electricity Generator was reportedly demonstrated to five Chinese Officials on Jan 15, 2007. Four 5kW working units are planned for academic validation, then 200 more will be produced. Mass production may begin in 2008. “The World Energy Crisis is effectively over.‿ (ZPEnergy; January 24, 2007)
That was over three years ago, surely in that time they could have built the four prototypes for academic validation and had them evaluated already? What happened? And they claimed to be nearly production ready, that's been going on for at least 6 years, a classic "free energy device" ploy is to always be "on the verge of going into production", to get funding, and the funding seems to happen, but the production never does.


The biggest breakthroughs always come from people who do NOT have degrees in science or engineering because they "know" all the ways it ain't gonna work.
Regardless of who the breakthroughs come from, certainly academics are capable of testing and evaluation whether the devices are capable of performing as claimed. It's amazing how often the inventors don't know how to make proper measurements on their own devices. They think they do, but due to their lack of education, they overlook subtle but important things like power factor, etc in their measurements, and sometimes come up with incorrect calculations of the efficiency as a result. That is, if they are only incompetent and not outright hoaxers...both types can be found on peswiki.

I think this is a key point of the claim:


I have 9 working FLEET prototypes that can demonstrate that the Instantaneous Output Power can be greater than the Instantaneous Input Power.
Producing instantaneous output power greater than Instantaneous Input Power is not a violation of the laws of physics, as there are numerous forms of latent energy storage that can be utilized and depleted during a test, including magnetism.

That's why a test that runs for a limited time like an hour is never impressive even if it claims to deliver over unity. In one case I read about the claim was instantaneous over unity just like in this case, however when the demagmetized magnets were remagnetized, the energy required for re-magnetization brought the overall efficiency from over unity to something far below unity and even below the efficiency of a regular electric motor.

Another overunity measurement was instantaneously achieved while one of the electronic components in the circuit was being fried due to a malfunction/failure. When the defective component was replaced with a working component, overunity was no longer achieved. Obviously this was just some type of transient effect during a component failure, it can happen briefly.

To put it another way, what would validate claims of "free energy proponents" would be an academically validated claim of SUSTAINED (rather than merely "instantaneous") over unity measurement. I won't say the sustained claim is impossible, but it does seem extremely unlikely. The instantaneous claim is possible, but it's the sustained performance we should be interested in for generating energy. A camera flash almost always has an instantaneous output greater than the instantaneous input, at the moment the flash goes off. Kinda cool but really nothing special and well within the laws of physics, it just stores the input power over time and accumulates it in a storage device, and releases it all at once to illuminate the flash.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:12 AM
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But... but... NO!

If we consign all the free energy threads to the Skunk Works, there would be no Science and Technology section at all!

Apart from mnemeth1's electric-universe propaganda threads.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 04:18 AM
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Originally posted by flybine
...Your total lack of understanding shows.

It should be on the front page, sticky on top of every news or education forum. This should be a political stand, a core value of any curious mind.
Will all this stuff works ? Maybe not. Maybe some will. BUT we need to investigate and the PTB clearly won't.
So educate, deny ignorance.

We have to make noise, and to fight robot silencer like you. Anyways, you're have been unmasked:
www.alternet.org...



edit on 28-2-2011 by flybine because: (no reason given)
edit on 28-2-2011 by flybine because: ttypinnh erorrrs and english translation from foreign -subversious- language


Of course free energy should be investigated.

However half of the free-energy threads that pop up are just stupid stuff like a battery powered motor that turns a generator to recharge the battery. If a 'free-energy' system takes this form, then send it to skunkworks which will protect the legitimate free-energy threads if there are any.
edit on 1/3/11 by C0bzz because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by SuperManny

"Two of Mr Wang’s 5 kilowatt generators successfully completed the Chinese government’s mandatory six-month “Reliability and Safety” testing program in April 2008"

HELLO!! they were tested by the chinese government!! for 6 months!!

And a miniature working model was demonstrated and put on public display at the Shanghai World Expo from 1st May 2010 to 31st October 2010.

I mean... come on! What more do you want??

If it were real then the Chinese would already have built a million power stations and have re-fitted every single military vehicle with the technology. You guys seem to think free energy is about running your pick-up truck or re-charging your mobile phone. To a country like China it would mean fleets of tanks, ships and missiles with infinite range. It would mean filling earth's orbit (and way, way beyond) with ships and military equipment. It would be a total game changer - civilization would change beyond recognition.

But no. Instead they publicly display it at the Shanghai World Expo and then do nothing at all. HELLO!! as you might say.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 06:51 AM
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I think the 'free energy' threads still belong here in the science forum despite all the bunk threads because, even if I have to wade through 1000s of false claims and hoaxes, they're evidence of research (often flawed) in the fields of science and physics.and some valid principles just may surface. I'd expect to read about it in this forum.

You need to open a lot of oysters before you find a natural pearl.

As for the chinese 'wonder' invention, they are building more power stations right now than anyone and what are they using? yep - steam (some nuclear but mostly coal fired), gas turbines & hydro turbines with some supplementary wind generation. No miracle technology to be seen.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by SuperManny

Originally posted by john_bmth
Extraordinary proof of overunity claims, please, or keep it to Skunk Works.

Yes, indeed, "extraordinary proof of overunity".

"Two of Mr Wang’s 5 kilowatt generators successfully completed the Chinese government’s mandatory six-month “Reliability and Safety” testing program in April 2008"

HELLO!! they were tested by the chinese government!! for 6 months!!

Is testing whether the product works as advertised part of the reliability and safety testing? It seems like it would be a separate issue.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 11:55 AM
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We know that there's a whole heap of renewable energy sources that have been proven to work. They are effectively free energy mechanisms due to being harnessed from the earth, are naturally abundant and free to harvest (disregarding setup and maintenance costs). So why exactly should Free Energy threads all be oved away? Its a valid topic IMO.

The reason no-one wants to talk about Free Energy is because you can't make any money from it. For Free Energy to become a reality we need to get rid of the monetary system.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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By "free energy" I mean over unity, not things like solar, wind, tidal, etc.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 10:48 PM
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There is no such thing as free energy. There is no such thing as renewable energy either. Energy is the ultimate currency of the universe, and it is used up every time it is used. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is inflexible.



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