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Nation of Islam and Scientology

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posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:27 PM
I'm going to break this, as I don't see it on the boards yet.

Louis Farrakhan finished his Saviours' Day sermon in Chicago just a few hours ago and he mentioned Hubbard, Scientology, Dianetics, Celebrity Center and several basic Scientology principles. I watched most of it from the Nation of Islam's live feed from the event.

I haven't seen too much on the internet about this particular development yet, but I'm sure there will be more about it tomorrow.

I am neutral on this news. I imagine a few others might have something to say about it.

I don't particularly care about the politics of the Nation of Islam or about the alleged politics of the Church of Scientology. To me, both these religions use teachings which are subjects in and of themselves and can be studied by anyone. I find the politics less interesting than the teachings.

But both movements are trying to make changes on the planet and are running into opposition in their attempts. They have both pointed to elements in the old European power structure as having something to do with this opposition. That is how they link to the conspiracy theme of this site.

Their teachings envision new worlds where those elements will no longer interfere. But beyond that the teachings are quite different and I am a bit surprised that Minister Farrakhan has taken an interest in Hubbard's technologies. I hope it works out well for his movement.

posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 09:07 PM
It seems that most members of the Nation of Islam–who are more knowledgeable in regard to the original teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and also Malcolm X–do not consider the teachings of Minister Farrakhan to be reliable.

About Scientology:

Where Does Scientology Stand With the Gnostic Movement?

...the founder of Scientology was L. Ron Hubbard, disciple of “Aleister Crowley.” Hubbard was an active member of Crowley's Ordo Templi Orientis where he met his second wife. The Church of Scientology is just a branch of that order.

edit on 28-2-2011 by Tamahu because: punctuation

posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 11:49 PM

off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 12:25 PM
reply to post by l_e_cox

The only reason given by Louis F is because it "civilizes" white folks.

There is no deeper reason for this man.

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 12:59 PM


"Farrakhan also said he had spent time at the Church of Scientology’s celebrity center in Los Angeles and had been impressed with the church’s method of “auditing” — a process he said was comparable to therapy.

"He said the church’s founder L. Ron Hubbard had a mission to “civilize white people,” adding that Hubbard “is so exceedingly valuable to every white person on this earth.”

"He also criticized the sexually charged performances of popstar Rihanna, saying they were “filthy” and that people who enjoyed such antics were “swine,” a description he also applied to homosexuals and lesbians."

How are the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard going to civilize white people with "auditing" and "Dianetics", when the members of the order that L. Ron Hubbard belonged to practice homosexual "Magick" rituals?

Mr. Farrakhan obviously needs a history lesson about L. Ron Hubbard and his relationship to the "O.T.O.", "Jack Parsons", and "Aleister Crowley".

There is nothing which indicates that L. Ron Hubbard was inspired by the positive teachings that influenced the original Ordo Templi Orientis (the PRE-Aleister-Crowley O.T.O. was influenced by the positive heterosexual teachings of Franz Hartmann and Arnold Krumm-Heller and others).

If "Scientology" were not influenced by the later corrupted "O.T.O." homosexual teachings of "Aleister Crowley"; "Scientology" would be a lot different than it is.

edit on 1-3-2011 by Tamahu because: punctuation

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:06 PM
Somebody better civilize “white people” or the world is doomed.

It is the “white” concept itself that must be defeated first and then maybe they can be civilized.

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:24 PM
reply to post by Tamahu

Now don't go disparaging the occult...

I've learned a lot from many personalities in the occult, Aleister Crowley, Alice Bailey, H. Spencer Lewis etc. Though admittedly, Lewis stands apart from the previous two in a stark fashion. Of all of the modern hermetic orders, Spencer did the best job in preserving the traditions.

Aleister is a different case altogether, because whereas HSL was literally initiated into the order (FUDOSI) at the time and was of moderate disposition, AC was plagued by such a religiously oppressive childhood, that his approach was of a much different one. Though, once you learn the language of AC, he provides many great insights and you come to realize that the rebellious nature is what brings his genius to fruition. Also, I would argue that AC was more of a mystic than an occultist, using the terms of Alice Bailey.

In order to see this distinction of difference between personalities within the occult more deeply, I would recommend studying Carl Jung. For years, he spoke to the world via the medium of contemporary psychoanalysis. This was an attempt to convey not only the symbols which his subconscious used to speak to him, but also to posit and discuss these symbols as they relate to us all; and to do so within the parameters of the psychological sciences. We have been very lucky indeed to have received his personal grimoire from which all of his psychological treatises emerged. This book is highly recommended, specifically Liber Novus or as it's also called "The Red Book".

In Jung you will see a moderate tempered mystic turned occultist who keeps his personal inner journey very private. Though much of his personal journey as seen from those outside of him was exposed in "Memories, Dreams, and Reflections" his autobiography, nothing on the order of what we get with "The Red Book" has ever been seen. When you see this, you will look at Crowley in such a way as he appears to be the jaded teenage artist who paints dark images... and you will see Jung, as that highly refined, skeptical yet deeply aware of his feelings and well adjusted artist. One who believes that the best others can get from his journey is the understanding of technique. Where Crowley pushed his own symbolic journey to the forefront, and where most esoteric orders keep these as gems for initiation, Jung kept them very private and extrapolated a method from them.

Indeed, when you study these personalities in depth, you will be able to understand many other personalities through the ages.
edit on 1-3-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)

edit on 1-3-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:36 PM
reply to post by HunkaHunka

If you re-read my previous post, you'll see that I'm not disparaging the Occult itself at all (for example, notice how I said that the Occult teachings of Franz Hartmann and Huiracocha (Arnold Krumm-Heller) are positive).

The teachings of Spencer Lewis, Papus, Aleister Crowley, and Alice Bailey, are corrupted and/or watered down versions of the teachings of White Lodge Occultists such as Eliphas Levi, H.P. Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, S.L. MacGregor Mathers, Franz Hartmann, and Arnold Krumm-Heller.

And from what I've learned so far the writings of Carl Jung are not necessarily negative, and his teachings do contain many truths; however they do not seem to be at all at the same level as the teachings of Gnostics such as Manly P. Hall 33º, V.M. Huiracocha, or V.M. Samael Aun Weor.

edit on 1-3-2011 by Tamahu because: edited text

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:48 PM

Originally posted by Tamahu

reply to post by HunkaHunka

If you re-read my previous post, you'll see that I'm not disparaging the Occult itself at all (for example, notice how I said that the Occult teachings of Franz Hartmann and Arnold Krumm-Heller are positive).

The teachings of Spencer Lewis, Papus, Aleister Crowley, and Alice Bailey, are corrupted and/or watered down versions of the teachings of White Lodge Occultists such as Eliphas Levi, H.P. Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, S.L. MacGregor Mathers, Franz Hartmann, and Arnold Krumm-Heller.

You do realize that the only charter given out by FUDOSI, the group which inherited the mantle of the teachings you speak of, was given to Spencer.

Obviously this is probably a silly debate at this point. However, I find it key to trace the lineage back.

The fama fraternitatis (1614) came two centuries before the Theosophists. The hermetic studies of that time period, lead by such personalities as Francis Bacon were passed on through charter.

As mentioned, Spencer was the only one to receive the charter for the new incarnation of the above ground time period.

BTW: The name of the Himalayan master that Blavatsky speaks of is mentioned in the first few drawings of the Rosicrucian Manual.

edit on 1-3-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:08 PM

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
You do realize that the only charter given out by FUDOSI, the group which inherited the mantle of the teachings you speak of, was given to Spencer....

...As mentioned, Spencer was the only one to receive the charter for the new incarnation of the above ground time period....

From what I've learned so far, Arnold Krumm-Heller either later rejected the charter that Spencer Lewis supposedly received from him, or Spencer Lewis never received it at all.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
Obviously this is probably a silly debate at this point. However, I find it key to trace the lineage back.

Agreed that it is always a good idea to look into lineages before associating with them.

Originally posted by HunkaHunka
The fama fraternitatis (1614) came two centuries before the Theosophists. The hermetic studies of that time period, lead by such personalities as Francis Bacon were passed on through charter.

BTW: The name of the Himalayan master that Blavatsky speaks of is mentioned in the first few drawings of the Rosicrucian Manual.

Interesting. And yes I'm aware that the Fama Fraternitatis is much older than the Theosophical Society of H.S. Olcott and H.P. Blavatsky. Anyway, I don't claim to be an expert on the history of the Rosicrucians, but I'm still learning.

Anyhow, would the Master you are referring to, happen to be Master M:.?

edit on 1-3-2011 by Tamahu because: edited text

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:29 PM
reply to post by Tamahu

She claimed there were two that worked with her... Master M was one, and the other was...Master Kut-Hu-Mi.

Enjoy your research. It's a fascinating journey learning to read the symbols. In the end I discovered that the symbols come from within. Though they are passed down, they need not be as they emerge in each age which summons them forth.

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:51 PM
reply to post by Tamahu

So a little background... Krumm was never a member of FUDOSI, but FUDOFSI.

FUDOSI met in 1934, and consisted of a congress of nearly all of the orders that time, except for two offshoots. One of these was Krumms.

In response to this FUDOFSI was created, and existed primarily on paper.

This is not to disparage Krumm in anyway, however to point out that Lewis did not receive his charter from Krumm, but from FUDOSI. Indeed on the day he received the charter the following were represented:







VICTOR BLANCHARD- SAR YESIR, delegate of 'L'ORDRE KABBALISTIQUE de la ROSE+CROIX' and replacing Lucien Chamuel, Grand Master of the OKR+C.

AUGUST REICHEL- SAR ARTEMIS, Grand Master of A.M.O.R.C.- SWITZERLAND, replacing Edouard Bertholet ( Sar Alkmaion ) and delegate of 'CONFRERIE des FRERES ILLUMINES de la ROSE+CROIX' and 'L'ASSOCIATION ALCHEMIQUE de FRANCE'.

Keep in mind though that this was only for the Charter of AMORC moving forward... and had nothing to do with other RITES such as the Martinists and Freemasons

edit on 1-3-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:04 PM

Mothership Connection

Underlying all spiritual movements is an esoteric system of thought that's often obscured by the movement's own public rhetoric.

Few movements have been less understood than the Lost-Found Nation of Islam established by W. Fard Muhammad July 4, 1930 in Detroit, Michigan.

Most people are familiar with the Nation because of charismatic members like Malcolm X, boxer Muhammad Ali, singer Joe Text and Minister Louis Farrakhan.

Some of the Nation's doctrines have shocked and horrified the general public while fascinating those who are sympathetic to its goals.

All of the Nation's teachings are actually symbols and myths that serve as codes for deep, universal truths.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad inherited the leadership from Master Fard Muhammad who was, himself, believed to have succeeded Noble Drew Ali.

All of these men held Masonic titles, i.e., noble, honorable and master. As masons, they'd taken vows of secrecy and could not reveal the deeper wisdom to the uninitiated.

So they spoke in codes.

So deep and multilayered were those codes that few, to this day, have a notion of what they were really teaching.

"I am the Supreme Ruler of the Universe"

When Elijah Muhammad met Master Fard, he asked, "Who are you?"

Master Fard replied, "I am the Supreme Ruler of the Universe."

The spiritual masters often say things like that, things that blow our minds. Such masters are not lying. We simply don't understand what they mean.

Jesus made a similar statement: "Be of good cheer for I have overcome the world."

The "universe" that W. Fard Muhammad ruled is represented by his astrological influences. In 86% of us, the signs and planets rule us. But the 5% who reach mastery rule, by consciousness and will, their astrological configurations.

Each of us, consciously or not, constantly creates the universe in which we live. A master, however, controls what she or he creates by controlling the input into the subconscious generator. Please see Seth Speaks for a complete discussion of how every person creates and co-creates the universe.

Every person can become "the supreme ruler of the universe" by developing their spiritual abilities as did Jesus and Master Fard Muhammad (and many others).

Before UFOlogy became popular, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that a large spaceship had been built "to destroy the white man's world." He called this spaceship "the Mother Plane." He also referred to it as "the Mother of Planes." The various parts of the ship were build in factories across the world, but the workers had no idea of what they were actually building. It was eventually assembled in Japan in 1929.

Often, when Mr. Muhammad was dropping a part of the secret wisdom, he'd let out a little chuckle before finishing a sentence.

The Mother plane, he taught, was one-half mile by one-half mile in size. It stayed primarily in outer space but entered the Earth's atmosphere every six months "to take on air."

The purpose of this Mother Plane was to "destroy the white man's world."

In Nation of Islam esoteric symbolism, white, black, red and yellow "people" were symbols of states of mind. Very few people in the Nation, however, knew that most of the doctrine was given metaphorically and symbolically. The rank-and -file membership considers the teachings to be "actual facts."

We will return to the "white" man a bit further.

The Mothership was piloted by "Black men 4 1/2 feet tall." (I don't know where the women were during those extended orbits.)

There were 1500 "baby planes" on the Mothership, each plane possessing three bombs.

Those bombs had drills on their tips and, when deployed, would drill a mile deep beneath the surface and, upon explosion, force up a mountain a mile high.

The Messenger taught that such bombs were used to separate the Moon from the Earth 66 trillion years ago.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that Ezekiel's vision of wheels was a vision of the Mothership.

The 4500 bombs would all strike land. None, Mr. Muhammad taught, would fall into water.

America was the first nation the Mothership would attack. Before striking and releasing its bombs, it would drop leaflets printed in English and Arabic warning of the coming destruction.

Some unspecified time later it would emit a high-pitched, piercing sound to warn that the attack is imminent. At that point, it was too late. The destruction would commence.

When I first learned of these things I wondered what the purpose of the warnings were and why, in America, would Arabic leaflets be dropped. Few Americans read Arabic.

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad once gave a strong clue that the Mothership material was symbolic. He wrote that Master Fard Muhammad told him that the ship flew 40 miles above the Earth's atmosphere but that he thought that the 40 miles was a sign of his own 40 year mission.

Upon reading that, I wondered: "If the 40 miles high is a sign, how much more of this teaching is also symbolic?"

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that there were two safe places to which people could repair to survive the destruction brought on by the Mothership.

After the bombing, America would burn for 310 years and require 690 years to cool off. After the destruction, a "new world" would be born and "a new God" would bring in "a new Islam" and "a new Quran."

Mother of Planes

In speaking of the "Mother of Planes," Mr. Muhammad provided a clue that he was really speaking of planes of consciousness, not physical spacecrafts.

In Qaballah wisdom the planes of consciousness were named Assiah, Yetzirah, Briyah and Atziluth. Assiah incorporated the physical plane and the lower part of the astral plane. The mentality focused upon that plane was called "the Asiatic Black man."

The astral plane is the "mother of planes" because the astral plane becomes impregnated by all the consciousness seeds and eventually "gives birth" to a physical event or object. In addition, spiritual development has to commence from the level of the astral or mother plane.

The astral plane was identified with the Virgin Isis, the Virgin Mary and other "mother goddesses."

It is the consciousness plane that includes alpha states, trance states, dreaming states, daydreaming states, and emotionally charged states.

The Mother Plane, then, represents the trance state of consciousness. By cultivating such altered states, all the peoples in the world participated in producing elements of the universal spiritual wisdom.

No single nation developed all the wisdom-elements alone. Each cultivated a part of the universal truth. So The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that parts of the Mothership were build in factories all around the world.

Some people mastered the use of herbs and plants, others mastered use of sounds and chants, others mastered astrology, martial arts, hatha yoga, tantra, use of gems and stones, energy manipulation, pranayama, spiritual dancing etc. But when they are all assembled and used in their appropriate place, then we have a "vehicle" that can take us to "the new world."

Japan is symbolic of joppa, a yogic meditation technique which involves chanting a work of power (mantra) repeatedly until a trance state is attained.

Assembling the Mothership in Japan represents the use of joppa to unity all the various spiritual techniques.

The year 1929 symbolizes 19 forces and 29 Arabic letters and lunar days.

Upon it are 19. And we have made none but angels to be friends of the fire.

-Quran 74:30-31

There are 19 energy points on the Microcosmic Orbit which accord with the 12 zodiacal signs and seven "personal planets."

There are 29 Quranic surahs which begin with mystic letters that actually form mantras.

The 29 Arabic letters are mantras that are used to achieve high spiritual states, especially when used on their appropriate day of the lunar month.

½ x ½ = ¼. The Mothership's size simply encode the four cardinal signs which, back when most of the spiritual language was developed, were Aquarius, Leo, Scorpio and Taurus.

The fellows operating the craft were said to be 4 ½ feet tall. Four and one-half represents the number of breaths per minutes one must breathe in order to achieve the lower level of waking trance (which is rather like lucid dreaming without falling asleep).

In the Western Hemisphere people breathe at an average of 15 breaths per minute. These are 15 hundred baby plane, i.e. each breath is a subplane of consciousness.

The bombs are symbols for mantras. Three bombs represent the three breaths per minute which results in full waking trance.

At three breaths per minute (while mentally chanting a mantra) the ego (the symbolic "white man") succumbs and one's awareness of and focus in the physical world evaporates.

That is what The Honorable Elijah Muhammad meant by the Mothership destroying the white man's world.

In the spiritual language, killing, destroying, sacrificing et al. doesn't really mean doing such things literally.

For example, the Egyptian symbol for Amen was a ram on a sacrificial offering tray. Once the symbol was well-known the offering tray alone meant a ram being sacrificed on an offering tray.

The ram symbolized the sexual urge, the urge to ejaculate. Sacrificing the ram didn't mean killing or extinguishing the sex function. On the contrary, many Amen-level masters were quite sexually active. Ram sacrifice meant controlling, refining, sublimating the sexual function by transforming it into a more spiritual (tantric) level.

Taoists achieve this in the Enlightenment of Kan and Li practices.

The ram itself symbolizes Aries which is ruled by Mars and which, astrologically, controls the sex organs, energy and activity.


Conscious awareness is often equated with light and depicted by the color white. In the West the ego dominates the consciousness. Mr. Muhammad used "white man" as a symbol for the part of the psyche called the ego.

There were a total of 4500 'bombs' on the Mothership. forty-five hundred is just a code name for the same 4.5 breaths a minute that is also symbolized by the 4 ½ feet height of the Ship's crew.

Each bomb (mantra) goes a mile deep under the Earth. That symbolizes the fact that mantras effect the subconscious mind.

The hour drew near and the Moon was rent asunder.

-Quran 54:1

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that "a Black scientist" blew up part of the Earth by digging a shaft to the center of the Earth and filling it with dynamite. This scientist was upset because he couldn't get everyone to speak the same dialect. So he tried to destroy the world. But he only succeeded in getting part, the current Moon, to break off and drop its water down to the Earth.

I won't delve into all of the heavy symbolism here. Suffice it to say that Earth/Moon united equates to a whole mind: spiritual/rational, left and right brain hemisphere etc.

Sixty-six trillion years equals 12 zodiacal signs (6 + 6 =12). After the world split off from the astrological paradigm, people's spiritual and rational consciousnesses were no longer integrated, i.e., "the Moon [spiritual consciousness] was separated from the Earth [rational consciousness]."

The same kind of bombs, taught Mr. Muhammad, would now be used to 'destroy the white man's world." Dynamite symbolizes "dyn" (pronounced "deen"), an Arabic word which is usually translated "religion."

America being "destroyed first" actually conceals an important code. America would become foremost in spiritual development as an eventual balance to its overweighted technological focus.

Land and earth often stand for concrete thinking. When the Honorable Eljah Muhammad said all the bombs would hit land and not water, the meaning is that they'd end a materialistic view of the universe.

Most English translations of the Quran are written with English on one side of the page and Arabic on the other. The Mothership's leaflets, then, really refer to the Quran. Once a person achieves trance/Mothership consciousness she can understand the Quran at a very different level.

The sound that the plane emits is code for the high-pitched sound that is sometimes heard in meditation. Eckankarists call it the Flute of God. The Quran refers to it as "a single compelling cry." This sound announces the arrival of a very deep level of trance.

After that the "bombs explode," meaning that the mantras succeed in reaching the deepest subconscious regions. Sometimes the meditator experiences becoming enormous in size. This expansive effect on the energy body is "the mountain a mile high."

At the waking trance state the physical world ceases to exist, it is metaphorically destroyed.

That the Mothership enters the atmosphere every six month (1/2 of a year) is a sign that the first level of trance commences at breathing 7.5 breaths per minute. This brings on mediumistic trance.

Seven point five breaths per minute are ½ of the 15 breaths per minute people average. That is encoded by the Mothership's entering earth's atmosphere "to take on air" every half year.

The two places that are safe represent the two primary spiritual approaches: trance cultivation and energy development.

Using gematria, America's 310 years of burning amounts to 4(3 + 1 + 0 = 4). The four represents the four sons of Horus, four cardinal signs, four directions, four fundamental chakras, four elements (air, fire, water and earth) and four "wives" of Islam.

American's "burning" symbolizes the kundalini heat that ignites the chakra centers at the heart (Leo/fire), throat (Taurus/earth), sex organs (Scorpio/water) and third eye (Aquarius/Air).

The 690 years of cooling amounts to the number 15(6 + 9 + 0 = 15) and describes the meditator's eventual return to normal breathing patterns and the cooling down of the kundalini heat. The 15 becomes the number 6 (1 +5 = 6) which, according to Elijah Muhammad, is the number of creation (Cf. Theology of Time by Elijah Muhammad).

In later writings, Mr. Muhammad discussed the Mothership in nearly astrological terms. He discussed the wheel (solar system) within the wheel (galaxy). In that respect the wheel refers to the circular movement of chi in the Microcosmic Orbit.

All of the Nation of Islam teachings are symbolic, even those which sound distinctly political or economic in nature. The symbolism is the power within the teachings -- which Mr. Muhammad called "the germ" -- that has such an attractive force upon many people. Master Fard Muhhamad used to call those teachings "mathematical theology."

The Honorable Elijah Muhammad taught that every human being was actually a god who had lost the knowledge of himself and was living a beast (i.e. astrologically influenced) life. When we decipher what the great teachers actually meant when they taught we can put those ancient and modern truths into practice to actualize the god experience in our lives.

"I'm down here in the mud and nobody can see me."

One of the last times I saw the Honorable Elijah Muhammad he was giving a Savour's Day speech. I happened to be sitting in the third row next to Muhammad Ali who was seeking reinstatement into the Nation.

Mr. Muhammad seemed to stop his main subject and look at me. Then he said, "Brother, I'm down here in the mud and nobody can see me." There seemed to be deep sadness in his voice.

It is highly unlikely that the Messenger was speaking directly to me, but that is how it felt.

For years I pondered what he'd meant. Much later I learned that "mud" is an ancient symbol for material and I have no doubt, now, that Mr. Muhammad was saying that his teachings were only being viewed as material teachings and that nobody could see the advanced spiritual science inside those seemingly material ideas.

Mr. Muhammad once said, "I'm a preacher. My ministers will be the teachers."

No prophet, sage, seer or messenger interprets himself. That task is left to the people who work with his teachings and explain them to later generations.

Most of the world is suffering a kind of spiritual anguish. If we grasped the deep ideas that sages like Mr. Muhammad brought and put them into practice we could heal the world, eliminate suffering and advance to the next level of human evolution which is intended to culminate in our experience of divinity.

Caucasians and Asians have just as much right to benefit from Mr. Muhammad's spiritual science as do Africans for, despite what would seem obvious upon the surface, Mr. Muhammad was not just for Blacks. He signed all of his later letters and official statements, "Messenger of Allah to you all."
What you think....

edit on 3/1/11 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:09 PM
Okay I would like to continue this discussion, however I have to soon log out. And before I do (for now); I would like to ask, on what do you base the assertion that FUDOSI is the group which inherited the mantle of the Rosicrucian teachings? I'm not yet saying that you're right or wrong; I'm just interested in hearing for right now what you've learned about this topic.

edit on 1-3-2011 by Tamahu because: punctuation

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:13 PM
reply to post by Tamahu

Just as it was was comprised of those who were the regents of the various traditions and offshoots. As if a trees many branches and offshoots came back together and entangled themselves.

Well all except for a couple... hence the schism of sorts.
edit on 1-3-2011 by HunkaHunka because: (no reason given)

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:22 PM
reply to post by Ophiuchus 13

The writings of Amir Fatir are interesting, and I've read quite a bit of them.

The Nation of Islam and the 29 Letters

"In America, one of the most prominent Muslim teachings are those of the Nation of Islam (so-called Black Muslims).

"Like all other spiritual movements, the real truth of the Nation of Islam is veiled in symbolism.

"To this day, no one has fully unveiled the deep symbolism within the teachings of Master Fard Muhammad and his student, the Hon. Elijah Muhammad.

"Elijah Muhammad once told his followers at a Saviour’s Day convention that "I’m down here in the mud and nobody can see me."

"What he meant is that his true body of knowledge was buried beneath material-sounding doctrines (mud) and that no one was yet able to see the deep universal truth he was conveying behind the shocking things he appeared to be teaching.

"He also once said, "I’m a preacher. My ministers will be the teachers." What he meant was that he was instructed to just teach what he’d learned, uncut, for 40 years but that after him, his ministers would see what he was really teaching and that they’d teach people accordingly.

"So far that has not occurred.

"Elijah Muhammad was a Mason. His followers like to discount that, but he himself announced it during one of his Theology of Time lectures. In fact, "Honorable, is a Masonic title. So is "Master" and so is "Noble."

"As a Mason, Mr. Muhammad had to take a vow of silence.

"A vow of silence doesn’t mean that you can’t speak, it means that when you speak the esoteric truth, it has to be done in symbolism, parables and other such code.

"All of the great teachers spoke in code, including Jesus.

"To represent that he’d attained the knowledge of the Hamzah, Mr. Muhammad gave the name "Hamzah" to one of his ministers (Theodore Hamzah of Cleveland)..."

- Amir Fatir

Even though it seems that Amir Fatir is on to something in regard to the teachings of the Nation of Islam, Amir Fatir is mistaken by suggesting to practice the sexual teachings of Mantak Chia.

White Tantra is what is taught by Samael Aun Weor, Huiracocha (Arnold Krumm-Heller), the Dalai Lamas, and many other Initiates, Adepts, and Masters.

Whereas Mantak Chia teaches what could be called Gray/Grey Tantra leaning heavily towards Black Tantra.

edit on 1-3-2011 by Tamahu because: edited quote

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 04:30 PM
reply to post by Tamahu

So you are of the school of thought that there is a right and wrong?

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 04:44 PM
The only thing the two have in common is that they are non-mainstream belief-systems. Other than that they are about as far apart as one can be. Scientology is a training-style rendering of Buddhism, repackaged for a lot of money and wrapped in questionable policies. Nation of Islam is a strange mix of all kinds of influences but related to the black-empowerment movement. Farrakhan is somewhat of a kook and conspiracy-theorist who most probably reads everything and anything he gets his hands on. Its no surprise he knows Scientology. He probably also knows ATS. But publicly mentioning Scientology toward his brothers is not going to sit well with his Community. Id say he has created a PR-Disaster.

posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 05:24 PM
Well! This thread has taken some interesting turns. It seems a few are soundly convinced that Hubbard followed Crowley, just because they knew each other. I think a closer look at the record would show this to be a fabrication.

It's just as well that Crowley and the occult became the topics of interest on this thread.

The extent that occult teachings have influenced the thoughts, lives, and actions of personalities great and small down through the centuries is a significant study.

But aside from theological concerns, a more reliable way to judge personalities and groups is to look at what they are actually doing, what their actual intentions seem to be. Some Christians believe that any use of "magic" renders the user impure. Others embrace the use of higher powers for the general benefit of Mankind and life. While still others want to keep those technologies secret so that they can be used to dominate others.

I think that rhetoric, press conferences, and political speeches - even sermons - are a less reliable indicator of true intention than are actual activities and results. And that is a great weakness of the media, since they tend to focus on arranged speeches and events.

There is a huge amount of discreditable activity going on that only sometimes gets covered in the media. There is open warfare in some areas that is killing and terrorizing people. Elsewhere military-type technologies and tactics are used by authoritarian governments and criminal groups to terrorize populations that are suffering because their health and wealth is being stolen from them. Harmful drugs are being manufactured and distributed both legally and illegally. And human slavery is still a fact on this planet. These activities are being funded by -- who? And they are being supplied with weapons by -- who? The Nation of Islam? The Church of Scientology? I don't think so!

Aside from outright police-style activities by armed groups, there are many other criminal activities happening all over the world that bleed populations of their resources and their hope. I think we are all aware of this. Who pushes these activities forward? Who is making sure they are protected and funded? I don't think we are all aware of that. But if you stand on the side of truth, decency, and basic human rights, then those are the perpetrators you would be trying to discover. I don't care where you stand religiously. The people behind those activities are the people bringing this planet down. You would have to be on the other side to disagree with that.

So when we see testimony directly linking a person or an organization to the above activities, that is worth exposing and repeating in these posts. The bickering about who said or wrote what about which occult practice or religious belief is relatively inconsequential in comparison.

If you are interested in contributing to the exposure of the persons behind those activities, one subject to look into is the subject of Ritual Abuse. That's a good place to start because some of the people who are talking or writing books on this subject have first-hand knowledge about this.

Could it be that both groups in the title of this post have become aware of some of the people behind these criminal activities and are each trying, in their own ways, to repair the damage they are causing?

posted on Mar, 3 2011 @ 10:13 PM
How the Vatican & Jesuits Created Islam.

My contention is that all of the world religions were created by the elite to control the slaves/servants,,,and if you look at the power bases - Vatican City, Washington D.C. and City of London (the trifecta of power), it surely makes sense, as each has a defined role: belief system, military system, monetary system - and of course the BAR is out of London too.

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