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Well I am going to go head and call this one, In comes the gaurd..

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posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 08:35 PM
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If the ATS thread holds true,

The police have sided with the protesters... My understanding is that they have not removed the protesters per their orders... This means that without the cops doing there jobs...

Here comes the National Guard...




btw 404 error.. WI national guard...

dma.wi.gov...

post if you get something different

WI National Gaurd




The Wisconsin National Guard consists of the:

* Wisconsin Army National Guard
* Wisconsin Air National Guard



not much so I followed the links..

Wisconsin Army National Guard



The Wisconsin Army National Guard (“Guard”) has dual state and federal roles, and is jointly funded and maintained by both governments. Its federal mission is to provide trained units to the United States Army in time of war or national emergency. Its state mission is to help civil authorities protect life and property and preserve peace, order, and public safety in times of natural or human-caused emergencies. The governor, who is the commander in chief of the Guard when it is not activated for federal service, appoints the adjutant general who directs the Wisconsin Department of Military Affairs, of which the Guard is a part. Members of the National Guard are typically part-time soldiers who attend unit drills one weekend per month and serve a two-week annual tour of active duty. All officers and enlisted personnel must meet the same physical, education, and other eligibility requirements as members of the active-duty services.


two parts

32 Infantry Brigade




The 32nd Infantry Brigade Combat Team ("Red Arrow"[1]) is an infantry brigade in the United States Army National Guard. It is the largest unit in the Wisconsin National Guard.[2]




157th field artillery brigade



The 157th Maneuver Enhancement Brigade, also known as the Iron Brigade, is based out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin. It was formerly known as the 57th Field Artillery Brigade, at which time its subordinate organizations included the 1st Battalion, 126th Field Artillery Regiment and the 1st Battalion, 121st Field Artillery Regiment from the Wisconsin Army National Guard, plus the 1st Battalion, 182nd Field Artillery Regiment of the Michigan Army National Guard. Not to be confused with the famous "Iron Brigade" of the Civil War, the 57th Field Artillery Brigade is also known as the "Iron Brigade," a nickname traditionally given to crack artillery units in the Civil War. It was during World War I that the 57th Field Artillery Brigade earned its nickname as it spent many hours at the front and fired more artillery rounds than any brigade in the American Army.



Both have deployed overseas....


Wisconsin Air National Guard




The Wisconsin Air National Guard is the air force militia of the U.S. state of Wisconsin. It is, along with the Wisconsin Army National Guard, an element of the Wisconsin National Guard. It is considered a part of the United States Air Force, as well as of the state.



I am not going into the three unit... they to also have veteran status....


The governor has already talked to the National Guard....


This means tomorrow, we find out our future as a whole...

I think some of you dont see this... the National guard will fire on the protesters or at very least it will get really violent... The cops in the crowd will not be pushed around... They are armed and will not tolerate someone else acting like they do... Mirrors make people made... They will fire first after being told or forced to leave...

I predict tragedy coming... the cops will fire first... and the national guard will respond with lethal force...

The only way this will be prevented is if Obama activates every member of the National Guard... So I do not see that... The dems profit if this bloodbath takes place so... And I do not see the governor backing down.. nor the republicans...

Do I get points for seeing the obvious...
These veterans will mow down the protesters upon heavy resistance

just so I explain the fuse... Cops with guns... eighteen/nineteen year old combat veterans green mix.. cops getting manhandled...

I have never known those with authority to back down...especially those with the power over others lives...

it goes boom


Now to those that want to outline the theory over the reasons behind it, go ahead and do it....I want to see if anyone thinks that this is either a flase flag or purposeful build up... for control....

Please be polite...
(I do not think the Koch brothers are up for it)

On a side note... They also have not paid for protest permit... that might change things...




posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 09:13 PM
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Keep in mind, the Guard are local Wisconsin boys and gals who are being called there. I'm willing to bet many have family among the protesters. "The Guard" are citizen soldiers, not men from overseas coming with orders to "take out" enemy combatants". In fact, as someone familiar with Katrina, I can tell you that the "rules of engagement"(they are actually called something else for domestic ops) are completely different. Kent State aside(1 incident among hundreds that involved the Guard in the 60s), the Guard is not allowed to fire at groups of American citizens. Also, as you point out, the President can "federalize" the Guard at any time should that violence be imminent. His authority overrides any Governor's. I'm betting the next few days will be unpleasant, but I doubt there will be American troops firing on American citizens at this juncture.



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 09:14 PM
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A fairly peaceful teachers union protest arguing to keep their power over the government is hardly a reason to call out the guard at this point. The governor has them prepared if needed, but it has to get a lot worse before they would be used.

Since none of these teachers are starving they will not have the will to protest endlessly. This is the whole reason they are back in school and letting their hired union protesters do the protesting.

Typically when the national guard is called in it is when the local, or in this case the capital police request support. Also the guard won't show up wielding machine guns and hand grenades. They will show up in protective gear, shields and batons. They are trained to systematically clear the area with minimal force.

My feeling at this point is the time table to pass the bill will pass without a vote from the senate. At that point the governor will have no choice but to begin laying off workers.






edit on 27-2-2011 by EssenceOfSilence because: spelling



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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It would be nice to see the gard side with the protesters. I don't think the cops are stupid enough to light the fuse, or I hope that there are a lot more civilians with firearms to make the gard think.



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by louieprima
Keep in mind, the Guard are local Wisconsin boys and gals who are being called there. I'm willing to bet many have family among the protesters. "The Guard" are citizen soldiers, not men from overseas coming with orders to "take out" enemy combatants". In fact, as someone familiar with Katrina, I can tell you that the "rules of engagement"(they are actually called something else for domestic ops) are completely different. Kent State aside(1 incident among hundreds that involved the Guard in the 60s), the Guard is not allowed to fire at groups of American citizens. Also, as you point out, the President can "federalize" the Guard at any time should that violence be imminent. His authority overrides any Governor's. I'm betting the next few days will be unpleasant, but I doubt there will be American troops firing on American citizens at this juncture.


But the point is they have to follow orders... refusal results in brig time... the order to fire no.. the order of self defense yes....

US Military is not firing on American citizens... they will be returning fire...Defending themselves... Some of their immediate family will not be there... They will warn them or be ordered away

It is a bad powder keg.... a really bad on...

The president can force peace on the issue all he has to do as you said federalize them... the problem he should do it right now... they are all gonna wait... pushing the point...



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by EssenceOfSilence
A fairly peaceful teachers union protest arguing to keep their power over the government is hardly a reason to call out the guard at this point. The governor has them prepared if needed, but it has to get a lot worse before they would be used.

Since none of these teachers are starving they will not have the will to protest endlessly. This is the whole reason they are back in school and letting their hired union protesters do the protesting.

Typically when the national guard is called in it is when the local, or in this case the capital police request support. Also the guard won't show up wielding machine guns and hand grenades. They will show up in protective gear, shields and batons. They are trained to systematically clear the area with minimal force.

My feeling at this point is the time table to pass the bill will pass without a vote from the senate. At that point the governor will have no choice but to begin laying off workers.


edit on 27-2-2011 by EssenceOfSilence because: spelling


The cops joined the protesters it appears... To deal with it the guard will remove them...



The guard will know who they are dealing with.. the police who do this... Also some of the guard may want to jack the police... which is to be honest something I had not thought of till now...

They have had time to plan and god forbid the police show true solidarity and show up in gear.... Want to bet it will be kept nearby....



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by xyankee
It would be nice to see the gard side with the protesters. I don't think the cops are stupid enough to light the fuse, or I hope that there are a lot more civilians with firearms to make the gard think.


The other possibility is this.. the complete disillusion of the Wisconsin Government.... especially if the guard sides with the union people....

The police not following the governors orders... the local mayors and councils going there own way.... that is one of the peaceful ways... unfortunately it leaves the 3.8 billion??? debt...

A better question is how they ended up with that much...


MOd if I step out of the line or purpose please snip this part...

I personally back the Governor on this one... The ability to not negotiate with the whole is actually a plus...

Think of hollywood actors and sports stars... your best and brightest have been held back... it might allow for individuals to negotiate for what they are worth...

me personally, I have dealt with the union. They did not support a dues paying member... They wanted to make sure they kept the deal they had with Kroger's.... Mind you it was a difference of over five dollars an hour... I was paid two paychecks worth of the higher amount... then they cut it to minimum wage...

Shop steward told me they felt it was better to keep the relationship they had with management... mind you one of the very reasons I took the job was because the union was active at the store... So the end result was my family and myself nearly starved...

So I have no pity for the workers in WI... The union does not do what it promises... It collects checks and then does nothing after all... when is the last time you head of the union going on strike because one man or woman was done wrong... you have not because they will not... You WI union members would be better off working in charter schools with agents/ reps

I support the governor because of a similar simple point... The people of WI voted for him... Enough to get him into primaries and ballots.... He is the legally elected authority of the State As is its legislative branch... I have heard of no charges or proof of evidence calling for impeachment of him so... Every decision made stands as the will of WI....

I would love to see if someone went and asked every protester if they voted...Want to place bets on if the numbers would not match the actual results...

If the cops do not remove the protesters (unless they have a permit), then they are violating the law...


He is in his rights to call the national guard...insurrection I believe is just cause to do so...

Keep a note I did notice he said if vital lines where disrupted they would be called in... did anyone catch the full definition of what those vital items where?



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:01 PM
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As a Navy guy, I have to say that I'd never commit to any acts of lethal violence against the citizens I'm sworn to protect.

That said - they've been told to get out of the government building. It is not their right to be inside that building and disrupting the function of government. If they don't get that - I'd gladly chuck a tear-gas grenade into the crowd and -move- anyone who still did not understand out of the building. If they still did not understand, and chose to resist, I would use the hand-to-hand and riot suppression techniques I learned from the Marines.

We all have jobs to do. Mine is not to kill you or oppress you - but there are stipulations to your rights to assembly.

However, should the system of government collapse under the weight of protests and ignoramuses - I will default to defending my conservative ideologies, and would not hesitate to place a bullet in the head of someone I am in fundamental disagreement with and who wishes to impose their way of life upon me and mine.

I have my own goals and people I will protect over the average citizen. I stand in defense of the system and principles of our founded government because they allow a civilized co-existence of two incompatible ideals. When that is demonstrated to fail, there is no other recourse but a state of civil war, and I will move quickly to secure myself and those I care about - prioritizing and disposing of threats.

This is something I've predicted for a while. The separation between conservative and liberal ideology is simply too great. The only peaceful recourse is two separate countries (perhaps two 'virtual' countries - something only possible now with the advent of the internet) where people can live according to their ideologies without imposing those views upon people who will simply not have it.

Otherwise, it will have to be settled at the end of a gun barrel.



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:14 PM
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Just a reminder people, these protesters are there because a) they are upset that they have to pay into their own medical plan and retirement plan b) because they may lose the right to "collectively bargain" (negotiate) said payment arrangements c) they still have the abiliy to "collectively bargain" salaries but that isn't good enough for them

Again, these people are asking for MORE taxpayer money. They want YOU to pay higher taxes so THEY can get more stuff!!

As for the Nat'l Guard? This is exactly what they (the protesters) want. They want more drama, they want people hurt, people shot.
If the Gov. is smart, he won't try to strong-arm these thugs. He'll ignore them. Let them rant, rave, trash the capital. It'll just make them (protesters) look like complete jack-wagons and this'll fade.

OP, with all due respect, I think common sense will win out and this will not occur. If it does, I will humbly apologize.
Beez
edit on 27-2-2011 by beezzer because: spellink



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:19 PM
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reply to post by ripcontrol
 


Some Related threads...

Anonymous target brothers Koch

a good find over koch involement

The prank call- ats thread

Koch bros behind it... ats thread

now some other ones...

video of cop calling out WI gov
abovetopsecret.com...

ouch-ouch... documented ,WI in debt cause of corp... tax breaks..
www.abovetopsecret.com...

wi shows union thuggery
www.abovetopsecret.com...

here are some of the more interesting views...

The elements appear to be thus...

Background... The koch brothers...

Libertarians....

IMHO- not seen them do anything, but they have played the same game as dem an repubs but to much better effect it seems...


The Governor ....

Facing huge, huge shortfall in the budget...


The legislatures...

facing same as above passed no collective bargaining for state employees..


The Unions

Have lost a lot of respect and power... seems to be part of the iceberg they hit...


The Cops.. and firemen..

have to face a lot of these people...
also have to be thinking.. we are next after a little bit of time...

The National Guard-

preped to roll if the protesters dont leave...

The POTUS-

has to balance...
one the government cant appear to be involved in crushing demonstrators like another country has...
two the government made promise to the union to get elected so debts are owed
three the government cant appear not to be helping out the protesters... (committed already to a side)
four WI is really broke like the rest of the US governments...



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by Aim64C
As a Navy guy, I have to say that I'd never commit to any acts of lethal violence against the citizens I'm sworn to protect.

That said - they've been told to get out of the government building. It is not their right to be inside that building and disrupting the function of government. If they don't get that - I'd gladly chuck a tear-gas grenade into the crowd and -move- anyone who still did not understand out of the building. If they still did not understand, and chose to resist, I would use the hand-to-hand and riot suppression techniques I learned from the Marines.

We all have jobs to do. Mine is not to kill you or oppress you - but there are stipulations to your rights to assembly.

However, should the system of government collapse under the weight of protests and ignoramuses - I will default to defending my conservative ideologies, and would not hesitate to place a bullet in the head of someone I am in fundamental disagreement with and who wishes to impose their way of life upon me and mine.

I have my own goals and people I will protect over the average citizen. I stand in defense of the system and principles of our founded government because they allow a civilized co-existence of two incompatible ideals. When that is demonstrated to fail, there is no other recourse but a state of civil war, and I will move quickly to secure myself and those I care about - prioritizing and disposing of threats.

This is something I've predicted for a while. The separation between conservative and liberal ideology is simply too great. The only peaceful recourse is two separate countries (perhaps two 'virtual' countries - something only possible now with the advent of the internet) where people can live according to their ideologies without imposing those views upon people who will simply not have it.

Otherwise, it will have to be settled at the end of a gun barrel.


mods can I add a few more stars to this post....

well said.. well said...



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by beezzer
Just a reminder people, these protesters are there because a) they are upset that they have to pay into their own medical plan and retirement plan b) because they may lose the right to "collectively bargain" (negotiate) said payment arrangements c) they still have the abiliy to "collectively bargain" salaries but that isn't good enough for them

Again, these people are asking for MORE taxpayer money. They want YOU to pay higher taxes so THEY can get more stuff!!

As for the Nat'l Guard? This is exactly what they (the protesters) want. They want more drama, they want people hurt, people shot.
If the Gov. is smart, he won't try to strong-arm these thugs. He'll ignore them. Let them rant, rave, trash the capital. It'll just make them (protesters) look like complete jack-wagons and this'll fade.

OP, with all due respect, I think common sense will win out and this will not occur. If it does, I will humbly apologize.
Beez
edit on 27-2-2011 by beezzer because: spellink


He is no idiot but, for some reason I smell a larger game here... I could be wrong...

Today I saw something amazing... A kid walked up to the counter and put a twenty and a receipt on the counter... Someone had left it in the ATM... he was with a church group... the others where in there own little clicks and some where laughing at a few others in the town...

He actually had principals, all his own ... so yes anything is possible...

If I am right please do not apologize... I saw something I cant put my finger on and better describe... Cooler heads.. maybe... but,,,

He has talked to the guard.... Hes ready to use them...

either way I might be paying slight attention to the news...



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by Aim64C
As a Navy guy, I have to say that I'd never commit to any acts of lethal violence against the citizens I'm sworn to protect.

I would use the hand-to-hand and riot suppression techniques I learned from the Marines.

We all have jobs to do. Mine is not to kill you or oppress you - but there are stipulations to your rights to assembly.

However, should the system of government collapse under the weight of protests and ignoramuses - I will default to defending my conservative ideologies, and would not hesitate to place a bullet in the head of someone I am in fundamental disagreement with and who wishes to impose their way of life upon me and mine.

Otherwise, it will have to be settled at the end of a gun barrel.


Did the Navy and the honourable Marines teach you to double speak, and talk with a fork tongue?

It is either you support and defend the sacred Constitution or you do not. The protestors are not seeking for higher pay or cuts in pay. They are protesting against the curtailing their fundamental right , and that's the freedom of speech - to speak out, to convince, to discuss, to debate, and compromise. Who's the ignoramouses here?

If you wish to pull a gun at innocent peaceful protestors as well as your own families, relatives and friends in there, as with the powers of the state invested in you as a military personnel, do know that Americans too own guns to stop brainwashed Kent State paramilitary idiots who deemed themselves above the Constitution.

'We the People'...begins with you and I.



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by ripcontrol
 


Hopefully the national guard will realise their job is to protect the people like the police did, not take orders resulting in them being killed/hurt.



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:42 PM
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reply to post by SeekerofTruth101
 


As former Navy myself I have to add in two cents here...

A long conversation over what we would do if they ordered us to defend the base against rioters... Then the order to fire was given...

I was the ONLY one who said no it is an illegally given order..

long short of it...

first gun I saw pulled though it did not matter what the order was... I was defending myself and my fellow sailors.... I would remove the threat from the crowd that it posed..

It sounds like what he was saying was he would use his head... but he would defend himself...

NOTE : IMHO
I personally disagree with their point... I think they are being drama queens... I distrust the union completely... but this whole thing stinks... the main question should be, HOW DID THESE STATES GET THIS BAD?

3.8 bill for a state???? what ....where did it go?


back to discussion:
as for speech... I have not seen any signs they applied and paid for the permit to protest... That would also nullify the governor... Maybe say a federal one (which would also be a peaceful solution)

This whole thing is weird... at the height of a few other issues it seems to have appeared... I hope as another poster here put it... cooler heads prevail...

But If I was there and a policeman pulls a gun or I see one as I go to do my job,... Well I will just have to be hated... me or them... I am with the guardsmen...



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:51 PM
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Reply to post by beezzer
 


It falls on deaf ears, friends.

I have stated this repeatedly, and only get the same daily kos/Rachel maddow talking points.




 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Feb, 27 2011 @ 11:53 PM
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reply to post by ripcontrol
 


I fully understand the moral dilemma that you are constantly going through, more so in these times. On one side is your own people and on the other, your orders.

At this point of time, in the comfort of our homes, we can delude ourselves with the decisions we will make, but when SHTF, it will definately be another story.

And I sincerly hope that you and anyone else in the police or military forces need NEVER, EVER be put in such situations. This mess was a making by politicians, and they are the ones who MUST bear the responsibilities and clean up their own mess, not fellow americans.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by byteshertz
 


oddly enough the decision may come down to one man...

The commanding officer of The WI National Guard ...


on a different side part

WISN.. protesters




MADISON, Wis. -- The occupation of the Wisconsin Capitol by protesters fighting efforts to strip public workers of union bargaining rights carried on Sunday after police decided not to forcibly remove demonstrators and end a nearly two-week-long sit-in.



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 12:14 AM
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reply to post by Lemon.Fresh
 


ask my friend...

if you have to U2U me I may just things differently...



posted on Feb, 28 2011 @ 12:21 AM
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Currently, all law enforcement are under strict orders that no force be used against the protesters.
There has been dialogue trying to encourage the protesters to relocate from certain floors of the Capitol to other floors, without being required to leave the Capitol building.

I believe that first, orders would need to be given to remove the protesters, through forcible means, if necessary.
Then, if these orders were not followed, the option of the guard would be explored.

Being here, my feel for the situation is that it is a long way off before "The Guard option" will be on the table.
I know, for a fact, that calling The National Guard up to break this protest,
will force many people on Walker's side of the argument to re-evaluate their positions,
myself included.



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