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Why hasn't the US made a formal apology to the Native Americans?

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posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 12:57 PM
link   
reply to post by superman2012
 


There is a big difference between you losing your child and me losing mine:

No one is trying to eradicate your ethnic group.

Your culture, language, and beliefs are shared by a huge number of your fellows and is in no danger of disappearing. Your loss is/was individual and of no consequence to your culture group.

Every Indian child taken and raised as a Christian and ersatz white is lost to us, and we are so few each loss is magnified.

Do you know how many other Chiricahua I've met in my life, outside of my own small family?

None.

Zero.

We are a scattered people, scrabbling for survival, we have no reservation to hold us together, no government check to support us, no medical, nothing. But we survive, and some of us survive well as individuals; we were never stupid, lazy, or incompetent.

But individual survival is not enough.

We have a right to our freedom as a people.

A lot of people characterize our request for dignity, respect, and freedom as whining.

I can only shudder in my spirit at that abysmal paucity of empathy, that arrogant coldness of heart, and utter lack of understanding of the values they display.

You say we're conquered so shut up and appreciate the privilege of oppression, just blend in to a society that refuses to accept us as independent equals until we disappear entirely into dim memories so Americans can breathe a sigh of relief, knowing they won't be held to account for centuries of lies and atrocities that continue to this day.

Sorry, but that is not going to happen.

So long as a single Indian draws breath and remembers her or his people, America is not safe from having her sins and cruelties exposed.

For so long as this particular Indian draws breath, our freedom will be fought for in every arena available to me.

I have spoken for freedom all my life, been attacked frequently, physically, verbally, and emotionally for it.

Americans hate being reminded of their falsehoods and crimes against humanity, and react as we've seen in this thread:

With hatred, anger, and a refusal of responsibility.

It's not my fault, I wasn't there, I didn't do it.

That's whining.

The last I checked most Americans still take credit for beating the Nazis, but few of the people alive today had squat to do with it. Likewise, the moon landings, and any number of things in the past.

So why take pride in what you haven't done and aren't responsible for?

If you claim credit for the good things your ancestors did, you cannot avoid responsibility for the bad.

So you Americans can stop whining and grow up any time now.

Take responsibility for your actions as a nation. Fulfill your legal obligations as defined by international treaties with fullness rather than the miserly subminimal efforts you currently make.

Return our freedom to us as promised.

Let us walk our own path, different from yours.

I think the real reason most Americans so desperately want us to assimilate and forget is because they fear retribution if we ever grow strong, for that is what they would do if our situations were reversed.

But from the moment the savage barbarians first came ashore, we greeted them with peace, with food, and with shelter. That pattern was repeated wherever they came. And just as soon as they recovered their strength, they slaughtered and/or enslaved their hosts.

All we have ever asked is to live in peace and share the earth's bounty.

All you have offered in return is death and banishment.

So I guess in the end, I would fear retribution, too, if I were you.

Remember: no nation lasts forever. In fact, the average lifespan of a nation is around 225 years.

Your time is almost up.




posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:07 PM
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Originally posted by Hot_Wings
Screw any apology to the Indians. It was called war. Besides, I never once heard an Indian apologize the thousands of setters, colonists, or missionaries that they murdered and scalped for hundreds of years. Do you have any idea just how many battles and wars the Indians fought against just the Spanish? They lost because they were too damn stupid to make anything better than a bow and arrow or a spear, period.

I will certainly not expect that any country should apologize for winning wars. Boo friggen hoo. And if you want to pull some “This was my land” crap well then that won’t fly either because the Indians didn’t believe in land ownership, and yet at the same time, they accuse the white man of stealing their lands. So they can steal the lands from other Indians, but the white man can’t steal it from them, what a bunch of whinny boo hoo bullcrap.



This is Our Land The Iroquois Thought differently we never said it was everyones land ! Yeah Everyone Land within Our 1st Nation Confederation!


For one ! speaking for the Iroquois ! we have a Confederacy a Organized Nation of 5 tribes (then later we added one more) before any settlers placed their foot on this Land which is formally known as America
The Mohawks in which im part of them are the Keepers of the Eastern Door !

First Nations
en.wikipedia.org...

a War its called an Invasion ! ! Thousand of Settlers at their Own Risk going into a Tribal 1st nation territory and try to claim its their own I would like to see your Neighbor or your government taker over your land (Now)
thats if you Own Any you know setting up shop settling on your land ! ohh thats right they do own your land
(if you live in America) you pay taxes right ! you refuse to pay they (Town Village State) take over! your rented land ! that you thought you Owned Unless you live in New Hampshire !

True we did not have the Technology as we where never invaded at that time well i cant say much for that except for Vikings like maybe the claimed Leif Erikson Our System Worked we had Wars with other Tribes especially The Algonquins the Hurons we had not just Bows & Spears ! we had Big knifes! Slings Tomahawks and Big Ass Clubs ! Snares Traps ,


A History lessen to be told
Research HOT Wings

a brief Lessen

Guerrilla warfare
www.encyclopedia.com...

The Military of New France
public.gettysburg.edu...



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:08 PM
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reply to post by Hot_Wings
 


Sadly, you are beyond reach and beyond hope.

Your racism and religious delusions have so addled your mind that your fantasy constructs are reality to you.

You seem to be talking to a mirror, seeing only your own hatred and fear, and nothing of what is real.

I can do nothing for you or with you, so I must assign you to that mass of unrepentant and irredeemable Americans who make the good ones stand out by their rarity.

Frankly, until you approach something resembling reality, there isn't much point trying to discuss anything with you.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012
 


There is a big difference between you losing your child and me losing mine:

No one is trying to eradicate your ethnic group.

Your culture, language, and beliefs are shared by a huge number of your fellows and is in no danger of disappearing. Your loss is/was individual and of no consequence to your culture group.

Every Indian child taken and raised as a Christian and ersatz white is lost to us, and we are so few each loss is magnified.

Do you know how many other Chiricahua I've met in my life, outside of my own small family?

None.

Zero.

We are a scattered people, scrabbling for survival, we have no reservation to hold us together, no government check to support us, no medical, nothing. But we survive, and some of us survive well as individuals; we were never stupid, lazy, or incompetent.

But individual survival is not enough.

We have a right to our freedom as a people.

A lot of people characterize our request for dignity, respect, and freedom as whining.

I can only shudder in my spirit at that abysmal paucity of empathy, that arrogant coldness of heart, and utter lack of understanding of the values they display.

You say we're conquered so shut up and appreciate the privilege of oppression, just blend in to a society that refuses to accept us as independent equals until we disappear entirely into dim memories so Americans can breathe a sigh of relief, knowing they won't be held to account for centuries of lies and atrocities that continue to this day.

Sorry, but that is not going to happen.

So long as a single Indian draws breath and remembers her or his people, America is not safe from having her sins and cruelties exposed.

For so long as this particular Indian draws breath, our freedom will be fought for in every arena available to me.

I have spoken for freedom all my life, been attacked frequently, physically, verbally, and emotionally for it.

Americans hate being reminded of their falsehoods and crimes against humanity, and react as we've seen in this thread:

With hatred, anger, and a refusal of responsibility.

It's not my fault, I wasn't there, I didn't do it.

That's whining.

The last I checked most Americans still take credit for beating the Nazis, but few of the people alive today had squat to do with it. Likewise, the moon landings, and any number of things in the past.

So why take pride in what you haven't done and aren't responsible for?

If you claim credit for the good things your ancestors did, you cannot avoid responsibility for the bad.

So you Americans can stop whining and grow up any time now.

Take responsibility for your actions as a nation. Fulfill your legal obligations as defined by international treaties with fullness rather than the miserly subminimal efforts you currently make.

Return our freedom to us as promised.

Let us walk our own path, different from yours.

I think the real reason most Americans so desperately want us to assimilate and forget is because they fear retribution if we ever grow strong, for that is what they would do if our situations were reversed.

But from the moment the savage barbarians first came ashore, we greeted them with peace, with food, and with shelter. That pattern was repeated wherever they came. And just as soon as they recovered their strength, they slaughtered and/or enslaved their hosts.

All we have ever asked is to live in peace and share the earth's bounty.

All you have offered in return is death and banishment.

So I guess in the end, I would fear retribution, too, if I were you.

Remember: no nation lasts forever. In fact, the average lifespan of a nation is around 225 years.

Your time is almost up.


wow. No one is now trying to eradicate your ethnic group! Don't go getting paranoid on me. In fact, it was 1896, that's right, 10 years after Geronimo that the last attack was.
www.historynet.com...
Also, according to this: www.accessgenealogy.com...
your "people" were not so numerous around the 17th century, UNTIL, you started taking captives from more peaceful tribes.
Please don't put words into my fingers...I have never claimed to be responsible for putting an end to Hitler, discovering penicillin, building a skyscraper, scoring the winning touchdown in the Superbowl, or even landing on the moon. So by your line of thinking I am completely free of any "guilt" that I feel. I can assure you I feel none. Like I said earlier, it was done by a technologically superior race at the time. Happens all the time. Will happen again.

Please don't try and tell me that every Indian greeted foreigners with peace. You were killing eachother long before the "white man" came here ( just like we were killing ourselves) so don't jump off your cross and tell me that we alone are responsible for the killing. In fact, didn't the greatest NEAR modern conflicts between Indians come at a time when the "white man" had reservations set up for you? Why not rise up then?

You say our time is almost up...your is way past over.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


Apparently you've read all the words in this thread and understood few of them.

The genocide is persistent and ongoing.

Your own arguments advocate genocide, and you don't seem to see it.

Our time isn't over by a long shot: we are tougher, stronger, and more enduring than Americans.

The US is on the verge of collapse: anyone who truly studies and understands the flow of history sees it.

It is not yet utterly inevitable, with some supreme effort it may yet survive, but the odds are long against it.

Out of the rubble of the former United States, the major tribes will reassert their authority over their own lands, and eventually begin the removal of trespassers. Many of the minor tribes will probably be slaughtered again, it is the American way, but I can't see what to do to prevent it.

I'll shed no tears for the demise of the US, but rather hope for a better world for all, Indian and non-Indian alike.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:36 PM
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The US Government should certainly apologise



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by DaddyBare
reply to post by Wolfenz
 


I don't live on a Rez anymore... grew up on one...
the wife and I just sold our townhouse (In a upscale gated community) and bought us a small mini farm as our retirement digs
in the past decade there have been a few industries move up there... mostly related to the Oil biz and farming...
Of course out that way nothing is bigger than NAPI



thank for the Reply

The reason i asked is Ive been noticing there's alot of industry plants that produced toxic chemical wasted and Dumps it into the Soil & nearby waters around Native American reservations in the United States and in Canada I see videos and read articles about this as far across the State of Washington ! & Alaska as these Reservation's are right next Door! to these Plants

IN The County where I Live there is 2 Aluminum plants(Alcoa) a General Motors plant! that is now shut down that has been dumping Toxic waste for Decades and contaminated the Soil and waters The more i research the more i see that it seems the government is doing this Intentionally ? to wipe us Out !??

Have you Ever see the Movie called Prophecy ! a Cheesy Horror Flick , The Horror stories from that movie were rampant here ! at on Time at my location The Same type of setting of fear ! Especially when the movie came out ! Especially the Deformity Theory's from toxic wastes near Reservations ! as the movie was shown near a reservation !

Prophecy (film) 1979
en.wikipedia.org...

a few examples

March 17th, 2010
Nuclear waste on Indian reservations
www.hvpress.net...

High-Level Atomic Waste Dump
Targeted at Skull Valley Goshute Indian Reservation in Utah

Reservation's toxic dumps a multilayered nightmare
articles.latimes.com...

Westates Carbon Hazardous Waste Facility On The Colorado River Indian Tribes Reservation
www.greenaction.org...
www.nirs.org...


My Community!!

State University of New York and the Akwesasne Community
PCBs in Breast Milk in the Akwesasne Mohawk
Body Burden Monitoring

www.chemicalbodyburden.org...

Encyclopedia of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois Confederacy) Toxic waste!
books.google.com... ZK-kptY&hl=en&ei=DUptTfPtOIH3gAfO-fH0Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=toxic%20waste%20reservations%20akwesasne&f= false


The Faces of Pollution : In N.Y., Toxic Waste, Contaminated Animals Threaten Mohawk Culture's Survival
January 24, 1988|MARY ESCH | Associated Press

HOGANSBURG, N.Y.
articles.latimes.com...

it goes on and on and on !


Apology in the Past ,, what about the Present as for this ! Toxic Landfill dump on Reservations!

The Government Allowed this kind of treatment ? This is a Conspiracy within itself! Nationwide

as i Said THE GOVERNMENT !
edit on 1-3-2011 by Wolfenz because: did not look right



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:07 PM
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We havent apologized the Indians because constitutionally they (Indian "nations") are not part of the United States. They are semi-self governing entities in free association with the United States who rely on the federal government for defense, foreign affairs, and welfare checks. They are equivalent of British crown dependencies (the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands states of Jersey and Guernsey) - part of the British monarchs realm but not of the United Kingdom.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012
 


Apparently you've read all the words in this thread and understood few of them.

The genocide is persistent and ongoing.

Your own arguments advocate genocide, and you don't seem to see it.

Our time isn't over by a long shot: we are tougher, stronger, and more enduring than Americans.

The US is on the verge of collapse: anyone who truly studies and understands the flow of history sees it.

It is not yet utterly inevitable, with some supreme effort it may yet survive, but the odds are long against it.

Out of the rubble of the former United States, the major tribes will reassert their authority over their own lands, and eventually begin the removal of trespassers. Many of the minor tribes will probably be slaughtered again, it is the American way, but I can't see what to do to prevent it.

I'll shed no tears for the demise of the US, but rather hope for a better world for all, Indian and non-Indian alike.


Please. "we are tougher, stronger, and more enduring than Americans.". Where are your people than? Why haven't they banded together? Please explain how I advocate genocide? I sure would like to see that.

en.wikipedia.org...

What I have been talking about is EQUALITY. In all aspects. Not white man vs. red man. I have been taking your arguments and responding to what you have said. I want EVERYONE to be EQUAL. You, however, seem to want and feel you are entitled to special status. I am no better nor any worse than anyone else, if you had taken the time to understand all MY words in this thread..which I know you haven't...than you would have caught that awhile ago.

You state that genocide is still taking place today. Source please. Are you talking about the genocide of your culture...alright, I can go along with that...but it isn't just "white man" killing your culture. You are doing it to yourselves as well. Teach your children that they aren't slim shady, that they are a proud Indian. Stop whining about how you are treated, be it in the past, present or future. DO SOMETHING.

If you think that Indians will not be a part of the "rubble of the former United States" than you are extremely misinformed. Like I stated before. If you have any hope of maintaining the level of comfort that you have today...of which you can thank EVERYONES ancestors...than you need the greedy corporations, the gov't that you..and I..have grown to rely on.

Make no mistake...your time is over. This is evidenced by the state of society now. The US might be next..I don't know...but your time is long gone.

By your time, I mean Indians roaming the land on horseback firing arrows at wild herds of buffalo. And before you go ahead and say, " well that is because the white man killed them all", unless a time machine is invented and you intend to utilize it. I ask what your plans are for the future...don't live in the past...remember it...but don't live in it. Even 30 years ago was a long time...name something that happened in the last 5.

edit: also, looking at your comments you only seem to answer one or two of my questions of statements that contradict your earlier comments...if we are to have a debate about this I must insist you address everything I bring up...as I do to you.
edit on 1-3-2011 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


Hi apacheman, loved your post. And yes indeed America very well should apologize for the mess they've now made in America and around the world. If a people could do the things they did to the Natives of this continent, I say continent because there was no division between the Nations only 500 Nations or more, they will certainly do it to the people of America now, white , black , native etc. Their time is coming. But, I wished that this country was the way the Natives had it before the invaders took over it.

I am white myself with Chickasaw blood four generations back. Did not grow up near any reservation, but somehow feel connected because of my grandmothers blood link and stories of her grandmother marrying a white man and having 5 children, her mother being one. So, in a sense I am somewhat connected.

I feel bad about it all the time. Why doesn't America have a Native American History Month? You see, Native Americans need to come up in the Political system and become President of the United States of America, be in Congress, but it will never , ever, go back to the way this country was, unpoluted, free roaming lands, maybe even some peace but I guess the God of this world will have to change that himself.

We have so many races in this country saying they should rule, white, black, religions want to take over, christianity, islam now, and I say hold on this country doesn't belong to any one of you fools in the first place. If anybody should get to say what happens here it should be the Natives of this 'New World' that's what it was called remember. Now we have New World Order wanting to have a go. lol.

Here's a little video I have saved on my Youtube Channel. They are beautiful Native American Men. www.youtube.com...




With hatred, anger, and a refusal of responsibility.

Yes, this is sad. And it should change no doubt, but it probably won't. But, I wished it would. Peace to you though. I understand.

DaphneApollo



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by ChrisF231
We havent apologized the Indians because constitutionally they (Indian "nations") are not part of the United States. They are semi-self governing entities in free association with the United States who rely on the federal government for defense, foreign affairs, and welfare checks. They are equivalent of British crown dependencies (the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands states of Jersey and Guernsey) - part of the British monarchs realm but not of the United Kingdom.


if thats is the case the reservation's can put a Toll Booth across their land when American Citizens foreigners cross it Right !! only if it was true !

You know a reservation of Akwesasne and St Regis call Cornwall island is a used as a Land bridge to between two nations and the reservation does not control it ! the nations USA & Canada Forces to control it ! watch the movie This is our land! that i previously posted ! and the rest of the videos

Cornwall Island (Ontario)



Cornwall Island is an island in the Saint Lawrence River, directly south of the city of Cornwall. The island is located completely in Canada, but is also part of the Akwesasne Mohawk reserve that straddles the Canada – United States border border as well as the Quebec – Ontario border

en.wikipedia.org...


edit on 1-3-2011 by Wolfenz because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by superman2012
I have read this thread in it's entirety! They have to write disclaimers so that the Indian population wouldn't sue them. They have given as much, if not more than they have taken. I am not saying that individuals have not been unfairly untreated in the past, but, as I have stated before (take the time to read your own thread please) I have had hardships as well as my family has and I don't sit at home bemoaning my horrible position in life. I did something about it much as your husband did!! I don't blame my problems on society. They are mine to bear just like Apacheman said. WHAT MORE SHOULD THEY DO THAN APOLOGIZE LIKE THE INDIANS WANTED!!!!!?????


You are not seeing the big picture my friend. The apology is worthless when the same atrocities are being performed around the world. What we once did to the natives here for their resources, we are now doing to others around the world. We do not see how cruel we have become because we are given cheap spoils of war such as Ipods, cell phones, and automobiles. Your Government is still doing what it is apologising for. It is worthless. And you are too blind to see this.

Now I am not even native american and I can see this.

Now this is just one point of view. I believe it is the correct one, but you are welcome to disagree. I do not ask anything more from you than to share points of view. Somewhere between us lies a truth we can agree on.

If you think about it anyway.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by superman2012
I have read this thread in it's entirety! They have to write disclaimers so that the Indian population wouldn't sue them. They have given as much, if not more than they have taken. I am not saying that individuals have not been unfairly untreated in the past, but, as I have stated before (take the time to read your own thread please) I have had hardships as well as my family has and I don't sit at home bemoaning my horrible position in life. I did something about it much as your husband did!! I don't blame my problems on society. They are mine to bear just like Apacheman said. WHAT MORE SHOULD THEY DO THAN APOLOGIZE LIKE THE INDIANS WANTED!!!!!?????


You are not seeing the big picture my friend. The apology is worthless when the same atrocities are being performed around the world. What we once did to the natives here for their resources, we are now doing to others around the world. We do not see how cruel we have become because we are given cheap spoils of war such as Ipods, cell phones, and automobiles. Your Government is still doing what it is apologising for. It is worthless. And you are too blind to see this.

Now I am not even native american and I can see this.

Now this is just one point of view. I believe it is the correct one, but you are welcome to disagree. I do not ask anything more from you than to share points of view. Somewhere between us lies a truth we can agree on.

If you think about it anyway.

With Love,

Your Brother



I agree with you wholeheartedly about that first statement! However, this thread wasn't about what the US is or isn't doing to the rest of the world...it was about an apology to the Indians. That is what my comment was about. Don't hijack this thread and turn it about world politics...I disagree with the US ideals on foreign "diplomacy" as well.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


Sigh.

In case you haven't noticed, I am doing something, the same thing I've done all my life:

Peacefully and patiently educating people about the realities of Indian life, advocating for our freedom, offering hope to the despairing, and preserving my culture; living my life openly as an Apache, different from Americans. It is harder than it looks, and costs more than you'd think.

I have adopted a girl as my granddaughter by your reckoning, daughter-of-my-spirit by mine, to whom I've taught as many of the old ways as she can absorb at a time. She is not of my blood, but at least part of her is Apache in spirit and to that extent I ensure our survival.

By characterizing our just demands for what is rightfully ours by treaty as mere whining, you trivialize issues of life and death.

By the terms of the 1948 treaty on genocide, cultural genocide is as much a crime as physical genocide. By every measure of the law, the US stands guilty of commiting ongoing genocide.

By actively denying its occurrence or placing it in the dim past, you condone its continuance through inaction.

As for sources, they've been posted multiple times already in this thread, and attested to personally by various people as occuring to them.

Doesn't that count?

You are just in denial, and it shows.
edit on 1-3-2011 by apacheman because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:03 PM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012
 


Sigh.

In case you haven't noticed, I am doing something, the same thing I've done all my life:

Peacefully and patiently educating people about the realities of Indian life, advocating for our freedom, offering hope to the despairing, and preserving my culture; living my life openly as an Apache, different from Americans. It is harder than it looks, and costs more than you'd think.

I have adopted a girl as my granddaughter by your reckoning, daughter-of-my-spirit by mine, to whom I've taught as many of the old ways as she can absorb at a time. She is not of my blood, but at least part of her is Apache in spirit and to that extent I ensure our survival.

By characterizing our just demands for what is rightfully ours by treaty as mere whining, you trivialize issues of life and death.

By the terms of the 1948 treaty on genocide, cultural genocide is as much a crime as physical genocide. By every measure of the law, the US stands guilty of commiting ongoing genocide.

By actively denying its occurrence or placing it in the dim past, you condone its continuance through inaction.


I have not actively denied its occurrence nor have I placed it in the dim past. Cultural genocide is being done by your people as well..once more, please do not take only part of my comments and try to use it against me. I have acknowledged that cultural genocide has happened and continues to happen. Mostly by your own people, here anyways. I took Indian studies starting in Grade 4 and continued until I graduated. I can answer more questions about Indians than most of today's generation can. So please don't imply that I don't understand just because I am not Indian...that is a complete and total cop out.

Please type to me like I type to you. With respect. I have acknowledged certain points that you have made and all you do to my points is "Sigh." or tell me I don't and will never understand. I asked you before to EDUCATE me if I don't understand...with facts about how you are still being held down by the "white man".. also, include SOURCES. Your hurt feelings are not sources just like mine are not either.

edit: how can a man be in denial when he acknowledges what you said!?!??

edit on 1-3-2011 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:09 PM
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www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com... (think i added them correctly) but if it dosent work just search youtube for christompher titus the fith annual end of the world tour parts one and 2 deal with the apologies

warning mild graphic language (comedian) well christopher titus apologiezed for us to alota people in the following two links and i think he sums up most of the injustices that they have suffered and at the very least he gave it a shot


www.youtube.com... for those that dont wanna watch the whole thing the apology section starts after a few jokes then gets into it
edit on 1-3-2011 by KilrathiLG because: add link



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:37 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


How am I disrepectful?

I am trying to answer your questions as clearly as I can, offering example after example of how I/we am/are not like the stereotypes you present, how I am actively working to preserve my culture within the context of the dominant one. I am answering the spirit of your questions.

But, and I can't stress this hard enough, we are different, you and I. My values are not your values, I order my relationships by a different pattern, acknowledge different priorities. We share your culture, and I can understand and operate well within it. But you don't share mine and are ignorant of how it works. I am not disparaging you, merely pointing out a reality. Ignorance isn't a crime and isn't incurable, as stupidity is. You may be ignorant but you certainly aren't stupid.

I think perhaps you misunderstand what I mean by "old ways". I don't mean going back to horses over cars, or throwing any good technology away. Frequently Americans offer us the choice of going back to the 19th century or assimilating into their culture as if those were the only options available.

They aren't.

What I mean by the "old ways" isn't measured by the tech we use, it is the value system and goals that system define and support.

Without independence, it is exceedingly difficult to express that system, since it is in direct conflict with many of the facets of cherished American culture.

There is no bar to Indian independence save one: America's refusal to abide by the treaties she signed.

Why does this continent not have a single independent state composed of and representing the original inhabitents?



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 03:46 PM
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Originally posted by apacheman
reply to post by superman2012
 


How am I disrepectful?

I am trying to answer your questions as clearly as I can, offering example after example of how I/we am/are not like the stereotypes you present, how I am actively working to preserve my culture within the context of the dominant one. I am answering the spirit of your questions.

But, and I can't stress this hard enough, we are different, you and I. My values are not your values, I order my relationships by a different pattern, acknowledge different priorities. We share your culture, and I can understand and operate well within it. But you don't share mine and are ignorant of how it works. I am not disparaging you, merely pointing out a reality. Ignorance isn't a crime and isn't incurable, as stupidity is. You may be ignorant but you certainly aren't stupid.

I think perhaps you misunderstand what I mean by "old ways". I don't mean going back to horses over cars, or throwing any good technology away. Frequently Americans offer us the choice of going back to the 19th century or assimilating into their culture as if those were the only options available.

They aren't.

What I mean by the "old ways" isn't measured by the tech we use, it is the value system and goals that system define and support.

Without independence, it is exceedingly difficult to express that system, since it is in direct conflict with many of the facets of cherished American culture.

There is no bar to Indian independence save one: America's refusal to abide by the treaties she signed.

Why does this continent not have a single independent state composed of and representing the original inhabitents?


Please explain your value system and goalsthat system define and support. I thought family was the most important. That is mine as well. Please forgive my ignorance if I am wrong. Society and all culture is built around the family unit. Please educate me on your value system.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 

First, we are matrilineal, not patrilineal: we count our ancestry through our mothers.

Parents aren't supposed to hit or discipline their children: children shouldn't fear their parents. Discipline is provided by the mother's brothers as needed. That doesn't mean parents don't guide and teach the young; by discipline I mean a severe transgression requiring action.

You keep your word, which is why I never give it unless I'm sure of it.

You are responsible for yourself, utterly, in the here and now. There is no such thing as "divine forgiveness".

Usen created the world and all in it.

To each thing its own power was given to provide balance. We humans can do marvelous things but don't get a big head about it: ants do some pretty marvelous things, too, and just try to keep them out.

In each of us is all we ever need if we only dig deep, find it, and use it. It is Usen's gift to every thing and our responsibility.

After creation Usen left with no forwarding address.

I cannot pray to Usen for anything.

My prayers can be and are only prayers of thanks for creating the world and teaching me to respect it.

I am co-equal with every living thing in a way you find difficult to accept and understand.

I see and interact with the world in a different way, with more patience for natural processes of all sorts.

I am obligated to my family in a way I see few Americans understand. They talk a lot about family values, but from my point of view they honor them more in the breach than the observance. There is an Indian proverb that says:

"No man can be rich who takes proper care of his family."

I handle time differently: who I am with in the here and now is more important than who I will meet in the future. If it takes two hours longer to complete the interaction, it would be disrespectful of me to end it early just because of an appointment, especially if I am dealing with an elder. Thus I am usually late: while in Vietnam, my maintenace officer gave me a sayonara present when he rotated home: an alarm clock, in hopes that just once I'd be on time for the war. Expect me when you see me, and don't blame me for wasting your time if you can't find something productive or fun to do with it.

I don't feel obligated to answer a phone just because it rings, and don't feel obligated to answer questions just because someone asks.

I seldom introduce anyone by their name: their name belongs to them and it isn't my privilege or right to divulge it.

I acknowledge no man or woman as my superior, and claim no superiority over others. I will follow as readily as lead, if the goal is good and wise in my judgment.

Unless I give my word, I will freely change my mind even at the last minute, if the evidence shows that is the best course of action. That is the right of every individual.

Does that help illuminate?

There are many other things, some I wouldn't discuss until I knew you far better and then only privately.



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


Why dont the Indians give a formal apology to the other tribes they slaughtered in there own petty conquests - next time an invading force comes and destroys your population with virus's and cannons you'll fight harder instead of offering a peace agreement that sees you corralled like animals...

Personally I dont feel like I need to be punished because my ancestors kicked your ancestors ass in a fair fight.

edit on 1-3-2011 by circuitsports because: (no reason given)



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