Why abortion is legal - why it is not wrong, murder or genocide.

We can argue about the legal or the moral issues related to abortion all day... Thats not the point. the point is why a women has an abortion. A planed pregnancy is all smiles and expectation. Most, not all abortions (not including rape, incest, so on) are a way to escape responsibly. America and other western nations are the experts of finding loop holes for anything. And it makes it a lot easier to find these excuses if you weren't aborted.

reply to post by Serizawa


here is the full story copied from my post on another thread: Yes, she made a mistake, yes, she regreted it, but was it fair that her existing children should suffer? She is a hard working honest woman who loves her kids, has never broken any laws, but due to one mistake, albeit a big one, she and her children faced ruin..

Consider this scenario, it happened to someone I knew and as such I saw the whole thing unfold. A married woman with 3 children ages 12, 11 and 9. Her husband decides to up and leave her, she is devastated, as are the kids, he wants nothing more to do with them and moves away. She slowly starts to get her life back on track, working full time to pay the mortgage etc, but she's been with the company less than 2 yrs so is not entitled to many of the benefits, full sick pay, full maternity pay etc, yes she qualifies for the statutory levels but that amounts to about £60 per week, her mortgage is £475.00 per month and that's before she pays the utility bills and buys food and clothes for her 3 kids.

She was really depressed and feeling really low, so to cheer her up, some friends suggested she should have a night out, she went and had a really good time and even got chatted up by some random bloke, which made her feel a lot better. So as she had received such a good confidence boost, she decided to go out with the girls again, only this particular night she had a couple too many drinks, decided to go back to a guy's flat and had sex with him, they did use condoms, but obviously there was a problem because just over 2 weeks later she had missed her period. She was totally sick with worry, she totally berated herself for doing what she had done, but it was too late. She didn't even know the guy's full name and couldn't even remember his address...And yes, before the morality police jump on me, she accepts that it was a totally irresponsible thing to do, she realises that she shouldn't have had as much to drink, but it was done. She went straight to her GP who was totally sympathetic and arranged the termination, because her GP knew what the outcome would be if this woman were forced to continue this pregnancy, she would be unable to continue working and on statuory maternity pay would fall into arrears with her mortgage, placing her and her 3 children at risk of homelessness. Adoption would not have been viable as the woman would have had to carry the child and the amount of gossip from neighbours would be unbearable, which would lead to her children being bullied at school (I can just imagine some of the taunts the kids would probably get) and there was no way she could have kept the child, she was on her own with 3 kids already, and would lose everything she had...

After the termination all she could think about was how relieved she was, in her words "it was like a tonne weight being lifted off of my shoulders"

She learnt from the experience though and decided from that point on that she was just going to focus entirely on her 3 kids, making sure they had a good life, and has never had a boyfriend or sexual encounter since. She does go out from time to time, but she's always the sensible one and will only ever have one or two drinks, if she drinks at all, in fact she usually takes her car (which she managed to buy about 1yr after that event)

Originally posted by Serizawa
reply to post by destination now

 

she will lose her job and her home if she continues with the pregnancy and her 3 existing children will suffer terribly as a result

Well if she had thought about this before she mingled the situation could have well be avoided. Hey "live by the gun, die by the gun" Playing with fire will get you burnt sooner or later.

so you are the one who will tell that woman what to do or not, how to behave and live ?? she is alone with 3 kids and you will tell her that she may not have a one-night stand with someone ?? that she may no more have a love affair because you did decide that in her place with your all knowing it better talk ?? man man man, what a fascism, where do you get that right from ?
never tell me what I may do or not do, none of your business !!
and a accident always can happen, never had one yourself ? you may drive as good as you want, your tire could explode and crash your car and your all knowing face into a tree ... ok ?? a pitty you cann't get pregnant as I suppose you are a man, I wonder how you would be with your girlfriend if you got her pregnant .... responsible ?
well, some heroic man are not responsible at all and leave the woman alone with her pregnancy and her multiple problems to affront ! peace anyway. Stupid world anyway !

The DNA argument pro-lifers make is easily countered by this. . . IVF clinics.

You'd be surprised how quick pro-lifers start bringing in stipulations and rationalizations post-hoc. . .

"oh, the aim is to create life so it's ok to deliberately make them knowing most of them will die."

"oh, location - it's not in the woman, we don't have no one to shout at and condemn outside IVF clinics"

etc.

reply to post by happysouljason


All I read is a generalization that women who have an abortion outside of rape or self-defense is selfish and irresponsible. It's crap. Women who have abortions aren't going around jumping for joy after having one, planning on when they can get their next one. The ones that do have repeat abortions have serious mental disturbances that need to be treated.

Woman who have abortions carry that burden for the rest of their lives, they don't need the extra finger pointing.

reply to post by Dendro


Someone is putting words in my mouth. I am talking from experience. As a person that has been in that situation and a nurse I have seen some, of course not all, the what, why and all the what ifs. I don't know the right answer, but I know no one here does. These posts are from debate class 101. It doesn't come down to right or wrong, it comes down to why and if you can live with what ever decision you make.

reply to post by happysouljason


I beg to differ, you typed it yourself.

Most, not all abortions (not including rape, incest, so on) are a way to escape responsibly. America and other western nations are the experts of finding loop holes for anything.

Semantics lesson: if you say most that is a generalization.

reply to post by Dendro


right man ! all those men, near always macho men that do not understand what abortion is all about, think that women really want abortions like some kind of plastic surgery kind of : " come on, now today let's have a good abortion just like we had a good lifting last time and some new breasts before ... waw, so nice we will feel so much better after that , waw, next year another abortion to make it feel complete you know ... "
crazy people thinking women like abortions and want it at first, initially ....
NO NO NO abortion is not a easy decision, it's the womans, it's HER body, not yours or mine !!!
so keep on walking if you are not her boyfriend and otherwise help her as much as possible instead of leaving her alone with her problems and her pregnancy !!
crazy also so much people against abortion never say a word when the babies that are born are killed by war or by hunger, you do not hear them to defend or protect those childs and give them good education and food and medical aid when they are sick .......
you do not hear them about the Gaza children, living in open prison with fear and very poor ... then they suddenly have no more rights to live a decent life ...

reply to post by Sunlionspirit

accident always can happen, never had one yourself ? you may drive as good as you want, your tire could explode and crash your car and your all knowing face into a tree ... ok ?? a pitty you cann't get pregnant as I suppose you are a man, I wonder how you would be with your girlfriend if you got her pregnant .... responsible ?

I would do my best to see that the child is unharmed, If she doesn't not want the child after birth I will raise them on my own and she can move on with her life. Just to let you know I respect women more then I respect men...Don't forget it. This discussion is about the child and in my opinion children have more of a right then any man or woman. If I was to donate money it would go to children....and only children. Why? Because children are pure and innocent, If we do not speak for the unborn how do you expect them to defend themselves.

how to behave and live ?? she is alone with 3 kids and you will tell her that she may not have a one-night stand with someone ??

Defending this woman in such a way is doing her no justice......

she may no more have a love affair because you did decide that in her place with your all knowing it better talk ?? man man man, what a fascism, where do you get that right from ?

Where do you get the right to defend someone you know is wrong, If she wants to have the affair so be it but her family has suffered due to her actions there's also the risk of ST-D's that can be passed down to children or cause them to be affected in one way or the other.

you may drive as good as you want, your tire could explode and crash your car and your all knowing face into a tree ... ok ??

Look if I was sober and this happened then so be it, It's an accident can't avoid death it happens to everyone. If I was drunk on the other hand and this happened you cannot justify my actions, This would be a case of ignorance. If for example I was driving drunk and it resulted in the death of a pedestrian or sober driver, Would you not call this selfishness? My stupidity just led to the death of an innocent.

reply to post by Dendro

Woman who have abortions carry that burden for the rest of their lives

Why is this? Is it because they know to an extent that what they did was wrong.

Originally posted by Serizawa
reply to post by Sunlionspirit

 

she may no more have a love affair because you did decide that in her place with your all knowing it better talk ?? man man man, what a fascism, where do you get that right from ?

Where do you get the right to defend someone you know is wrong, If she wants to have the affair so be it but her family has suffered due to her actions there's also the risk of ST-D's that can be passed down to children or cause them to be affected in one way or the other.

Obviously you didn't read the above post where the full story was posted. The woman's HUSBAND LEFT HER. His actions left the family more devastated through divorce and abandonment than anyone else. Or is it still adultery even if your spouse leaves you?

reply to post by Dendro

also so much people against abortion never say a word when the babies that are born are killed by war or by hunger, you do not hear them to defend or protect those childs and give them good education and food and medical aid when they are sick ....... you do not hear them about the Gaza children, living in open prison with fear and very poor ... then they suddenly have no more rights to live a decent life ...

..

So in other words sterilization is also acceptable in your opinion?

reply to post by Dendro


Even in a marriage pregnancies should be planned.

Originally posted by Serizawa
reply to post by Dendro

 

Woman who have abortions carry that burden for the rest of their lives

Why is this? Is it because they know to an extent that what they did was wrong.

No not at all, not that it was a WRONG decision to make, but yes that it was a very SAD decision to make, a decision she first of all did not want to have to make and surely did not make with pleasure but in the knowing she had to go thru it to save her own individual life and spirit, before her own life was broken up or whatever.
Sometimes yes, you have to make decisions that you better wouldn't have to make ..... and you can feel bad after that decision but life goes on and you have to live with it ....
Anyway, it's the woman's decision, nobody can force her to NOT make a decision for abortion ! it's HER body, what will you do maybe ? put your durty hands before her chest to make abortion impossible ???

Originally posted by Serizawa
reply to post by Dendro

 

also so much people against abortion never say a word when the babies that are born are killed by war or by hunger, you do not hear them to defend or protect those childs and give them good education and food and medical aid when they are sick ....... you do not hear them about the Gaza children, living in open prison with fear and very poor ... then they suddenly have no more rights to live a decent life ...

..

So in other words sterilization is also acceptable in your opinion?

are you crazy or what ? where did I say that ? where did I say sterilization is acceptable ???
that is none of my business !! I do NOT accept forced sterilization of course, but if one decide to for him/herself well what do I have to interfere with it !
I just said that the anti-abortion people always speak and judge woman that decide for abortion, that it is bad etc etc but never speak loud against war and hunger that kill babies that are BORN !! so they defend unborn babies but not the ones being born and suffering all around !!!

reply to post by Sunlionspirit

it's HER body, what will you do maybe ? put your durty hands before her chest to make abortion impossible ???

Now you call me dirty, And your spelling is wrong. Let me tell a little something about myself, I have no regard for any human life except that of children. I will not attempt to help people that will not help themselves.

it is bad etc etc but never speak loud against war and hunger that kill babies that are BORN !! so they defend unborn babies but not the ones being born and suffering all around !!!

Your posts point towards sterilization, As that is what TPTB plan to do starting with the 3rd world countries.

Originally posted by Serizawa
Abortion is killing at the end of the day, People can lie to themselves and come up with all sorts of excuses but you can never run away from the guilt. We always have to justify our actions, Just to make ourselves feel better.

Yes it may not be murder in certain regions where it is lawful to abort, But it is our making, The fetus comes to be because of our actions and I think it's rather selfish when we take an innocent life.

As you are unable to prove a life was taken, because we do not know what stage life begins during the beginning of pregnancy - it is not murder

Life begins from day one.

we have established abortion itself is not wrong

Here you seem to be trying to justify your own actions. Please say "I" and not "WE", Some of the members here do not share the same views as you.

I agree with Ariels points.

Since I am capable of looking at early abortion objectively and logically I do not feel "guilt" over it. Should we start feeling guilty about using condoms? After all, the little guys just never got a fair shot at life, did they

reply to post by byteshertz


Both the sperm and the ovum are alive. You can't get life from something that is dead.

Abortion isn't wrong because there is no such "thing" as wrong. People are prone to constructing mores, grouping together with like minded individuals and either killing or converting those around them. Most people make pretend that mores are actually morals.

reply to post by Serizawa


yes ok sorry for my english as I am French and I really would like to see how you speak/write french, so .....

and yes I mean dirty hands, like rape hands, because people have nothing to do into or whatever about the womb of a woman - this not specially concerning you of course but all the people wanting to intervene into the womb of a woman without her permission !!! Abortion is HER decision, when will you understand that ?
you cannot prevent abortion once a woman did decide that - what I mean is will you put her on a chain, tie her hands and feet so she cann't let it happen ?? or will you try and make it possible and allow it to happen in the best possible clinical way ....... so she doesn't die from hemoragy in a dirty old kitchen somewhere in a suburban slum ? Think about it.

Originally posted by byteshertz

Originally posted by Ariel

Sticking with my original argument - if we have life at the point we have human DNA then do we stop having life when our DNA changes throughout our life (source in OP). If a humans life is defined by have 46 chromosomes then what about those few with a different number of chromosomes.

I would definitely be the last person to argue that it takes 46 chromosomes to have a human life, as I have a genetic condition myself and don't have all 46 chromosomes in most of my cells. So, actually, this issue is very dear to my heart. If all the prenatal genetic testing that's done today had been done back when my mother was pregnant with me, I might not even be alive now to have this conversation with you. And I'd have lost everything. I would never have had the chance to fall in love with and marry my husband. It's painful just thinking about losing out on even a second of what we have together. And to think of the other things I'd have lost out on-- my family, my friends, my work. Singing in the band I'm a member of, and working on the book I'm writing! Even simple things, like a wonderful day at the beach...In short, everything that goes into a life. Every life. All the things that we love, and treasure. Even all the things we hate but had to experience to make us strong and help us mature and grow. That is what abortion takes away. That's the point.

To be maybe more clear than I was in my last post, we have a human life at the point of conception. However many chromosomes he or she ends up with.

The unique human DNA that this new life has upon conception simply means that the new life is human. Those changes in DNA throughout our life of course don't impact that fact that we *do* have life...from the moment of our conception to the moment of our death. Hope that clarifies a bit.

Before I use the argument of 'if god wanted it that way it would be that way' - I will say if it is their one and only chance at life - did we give them that chance and then take it away or did god give them the chance then we took it away? were they around in spirit before they were concieved? if so then they have just returned to what they were before, if not then we are the ones that got god to create them.

edit on 24-2-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)

Well, I do believe that God gave them the soul and chance at life, and abortion is a human action that destroys that life. We may never know while we're alive at what point the soul is created or enters their human body. It doesn't matter, though, at what point it happens. Even if an abortion were done before a soul enters their body, that doesn't make it more justified or right. It's still taking away all that one was meant to experience, do, and learn in this life.

Sure, those who are aborted probably do return to what they were before (if they were around in spirit before conception. But that that should NEVER, NEVER simply be dismissed as a "they're just returning to what they were before"! Do we do that when any of our loved ones are killed? We grieve the loss, no matter what comforting things we say about them returning home and being in a better place.

It's still a tragic loss. That is the point.

So, in my view, what really matters is that abortion destroys the body and takes away that life, and everything that person was meant to do and be.

edit on 25-2-2011 by Ariel because: (no reason given)