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Originally posted by MindSpin
Has anyone refuted the fact that biologically, human life begins at conception???
I love all the dancing around, bringing up other issues, and avoidance of the question...it is quite entertaining.
But I would really like for anyone to try to refute this
That is not true, there are plenty of humans that lack personhood, and I do not think they should be protected just because of their genes.
That is a strawman. They obviously are human, nobody is denying that. But they are just human life, not human persons, and that is not enough to be protected by law, IMHO. The notion that we should protect a bunch of human cells without developed brain is as absurd to me as the notion that we should protect the vegetable I have just eaten for breakfast.
Specieism is just another form of racism, and whether we like it or not, true morality does not care about such irrelevant things as the genome of an entity.
I would refute that. Human "development" begins at conception. Birth is when the life begins as the newborn now has the ability to survive on its own, biologically and physiologically.
Life cycle
Definition
noun
The whole life history of an organism, usually depicted through a series of developmental stages (e.g. from zygote into a mature form where another zygote can be produced) in which an organism goes through.
Supplement
Life cycle entails the course of development of an organism, i.e. from the time of inception to growth to finally maturity when an organism can viably produce another of its kind.
In certain organisms, life cycle includes the different generations of species. For instance, a life cycle of an angiosperm involves both the sporophyte and gametophyte generations.
"The two cells gradually and gracefully become one. This is the moment of conception, when an individual's unique set of DNA is created, a human signature that never existed before and will never be repeated."
"Every baby begins life within the tiny globe of the mother's egg... It is beautifully translucent and fragile and it encompasses the vital links in which life is carried from one generation to the next. Within this tiny sphere great events take place. When one of the father's sperm cells, like the ones gathered here around the egg, succeeds in penetrating the egg and becomes united with it, a new life can begin."
"Although life is a continuous process, fertilization (which, incidentally, is not a 'moment') is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new genetically distinct human organism is formed when the chromosomes of the male and female pronuclei blend in the oocyte."
"It is the penetration of the ovum by a spermatozoan and resultant mingling of the nuclear material each brings to the union that constitues the culmination of the process of fertilization and marks the initiation of the life of a new individual."
Holy crap...which humans have you decided "lack personhood"???
Originally posted by MindSpin
Why don't you pro-abortionists just come out and say "I support killing humans"???
Originally posted by Gorman91
My religion calls me to preach about Christ....
However, my two major points have been that life in the womb is not self-sufficient(I will discard the term biologically, for you).
My second major point has been that personal choice is ultimately the will of the mother.
Both of these points reject scientific, moral, or ethical stances on abortion. I will concede that life may begin at fertilization. However, development inside the womb is vastly different than development outside the womb. You seem to be an intelligent person and should recognize these differences. These developments, while similar in biology, are different for a developing embryo/fetus compared to a newborn human. The "life" inside the womb is mainly concerned with the development of the unconscious systems that regulate the properties of existence. The "life" after birth is mainly concerned with physical and sexual development with, of course, brain development over the years. While it can be argued that these developments are similar, there is a marked difference.
Regarding morals or ethics; I have stated many times that the ultimate choice regarding abortion is the province of the mother. In the majority of your replies, you seem to evade this issue and consider it invalid. I can't do that. The decision of a woman with the ability to procreate will always supersede the "decision" of a developing "life" inside that woman, as that "life" cannot communicate with the world outside the womb and that communication inside the womb is debatable.
This is where you and I fundamentally disagree and I don't believe any amount of debate will convince either of us to change our beliefs.
I have not seen one post in your many responses that supports a woman's fundamental right to terminate. I see that you have opposed it vehemently. You have stated and supported your moral/ethical stand on this issue. However, you have not put yourself into the situation of a woman considering or deciding to abort. There are many reason why a woman would do so and they usually have nothing to do with morality or ethics. It is very easy to be self righteous in regards to situations that do not directly involve you, personally nor professionally.
No matter what I will not dictate to a woman what she can or can't do with her body. Including "anything" that happens to be "developing" inside this person.
Originally posted by kinda kurious
Originally posted by MindSpin
Why don't you pro-abortionists just come out and say "I support killing humans"???
So naturally you will go on record stating you are against:
- All war?
- The Death Penalty?
A simple YES will do, thanks.
However, my two major points have been that life in the womb is not self-sufficient(I will discard the term biologically, for you).
Neither is a newborn baby.
My second major point has been that personal choice is ultimately the will of the mother.
However, it isn't "personal choice" when it involves another living human being.
Both of these points reject scientific, moral, or ethical stances on abortion. I will concede that life may begin at fertilization. However, development inside the womb is vastly different than development outside the womb. You seem to be an intelligent person and should recognize these differences. These developments, while similar in biology, are different for a developing embryo/fetus compared to a newborn human. The "life" inside the womb is mainly concerned with the development of the unconscious systems that regulate the properties of existence. The "life" after birth is mainly concerned with physical and sexual development with, of course, brain development over the years. While it can be argued that these developments are similar, there is a marked difference.
And why is one stage of development worthy of protection and the other is not?
And what of the man's choice to procreate?
Do you admit that you support a situation of equality where the man has no say if he wishes to procreate or not? He can not say that he doesn't wish to and terminate the pregnancy...he can't say he wishes to and have any say in her not getting an abortion.
Please don't give me the line that he had that choice when he had sex....because so did she.
And don't give me the rape line...because that is less than 1% of abortions, unless you want to concede that abortions should only be allowed in cases of forceable sex (which can be medically determined)???
I don't care to change your beliefs...as long as you realize you are coming from an illogical point of view that can not be defended.
My main issue while discussing abortion is that pro-abortion people dance around the fact that they are supporting the killing of a defenseless human life.
If you want to come out and outright say that you support the killing of innocent, defenseless humans....then I will leave you to your opinion.
I don't support the killing of another human a solution to any hard life situation.
There are many reasons why a woman may decide to murder her husband...many reasons we may all think are valid...but it doesn't make it right nor legal.
My opinion is the same about abortion...I am vehemently (to borrow a word) against killing of other humans in any situation outside of self defense (self preservation).
Even if it was your child "developing" in there? Even if that development had lasted 7 months, you have felt it kick and heard it's heart beat? If she decides to end it...you would support it?
To all of the anti-abortionists out there: I hope you don't eat eggs or any product that contains them. It would be quite hypocritical of you to defend unborn life while digesting a southwestern omelet. Life is life after all.
Unborn HUMAN life. You left out human. And last I checked, people aren't using human eggs for their morning omelet. Also, the chicken egg people are eating, isn't fertilized. Ever cracked open an egg and seen a partially formed chicken spill out into the pan?
Claiming human life more valuable or important than other life forms.