Sit down, Shut up, and Stay OUT of it!

The United States government needs to learn how to just let other countries and their people govern themselves. Period.

For too long we've spent trillions of dollars interfering at every level of government's all over the world, many times with disastrous effects on the peoples of these nations. South America is a prime example. Arabic nations another. We've poured money into these regimes for support, we've allowed our corporations to get in bed with them, all for the mighty dollar.

I don't wish to make this about War, as generally the US has also served on the side of good (the last two being the exceptions), but it's about something more sinister, the level of corrupting influence the US exerts over other nations, there's something going on other than the "spread of democracy".

The fall of Egyptian dictator Mubarak and now, the alleged shooting of Gadhafi, the turnover in Tunisia and unrest in Bahrain, shows that these countries CAN determine their own fate with little to no direct interference from the US, in fact with Egypt it seems to be in direct contrast to US interference.

If we truly desire to see democracy triumph, we need to let these people achieve it themselves.

Sorry this post doesn't really have a conspiracy angle, unless you consider the 30-40 plus years of conspiracies waged by this government against others and the billions in "aid" to bend them to our will (or prop up their cause).

I do agree to extents. However, when unarmed people start getting gunned down, and if we are going to be a super power we need to act like one and go to those peoples aid. I do not fault the US in helping when the unarmed and the innocents are being murdered, but unfortunately we somehow find an ulterior motive to tack on to it. It is a shame we cannot just help someone because it is the right thing to do.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Bkackmarketeer - For once I actually agree with you. Very well put!

Well really you should be talking about the American People, since really, they are the government.

All of your problems can be solved at the ballot box. If any industrialized nation at the moment had any decent politicians in power, they would be doing excellent. The world would be far better off. That can't happen unless some people in that country elect them though...

~Keeper

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Totally agree, but I don't believe the US actually cares for democracy based on the comments of many inside top bods. It's all about controlling resources at the end of the day: they aren't bothered who's in the Chair as long as the US gets a sweet deal... Pinochet was a prime example.

Originally posted by Skewed
However, when unarmed people start getting gunned down,

How does that make it our business? People die every day. If they die trying to bring about regime change, then at least they died for a cause. IT IS NOT OUR PLACE TO BE THE WORLD"S POLICE FORCE!!!

and if we are going to be a super power we need to act like one and go to those peoples aid.

Says who? Our military SHOULD be used for defense only.

I do not fault the US in helping when the unarmed and the innocents are being murdered, but unfortunately we somehow find an ulterior motive to tack on to it.

I do. We need to fix our own problems. How can we complain about the grain of sand in our neighbor's eye while a beam is firmly wedged in our own?

It is a shame we cannot just help someone because it is the right thing to do.

The real shame is that we cannot just mind our own business.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


Ummm... excuse me? Im deffinately NOT the american government. The people haven't been the american government for a long damned time now. What the hell are we supposed to do when all we get to choose from is a 'giant douche' and a 'turd sandwich'? Both suck equally as bad. Then what? Wonder why our elected officials are corrupt, money grubbing a-holes?

Blame the americans... Sounds about right.

MOTF!

Originally posted by Skewed
I do agree to extents. However, when unarmed people start getting gunned down, and if we are going to be a super power we need to act like one and go to those peoples aid. I do not fault the US in helping when the unarmed and the innocents are being murdered, but unfortunately we somehow find an ulterior motive to tack on to it. It is a shame we cannot just help someone because it is the right thing to do.

You got it dead to rights Skewed. We should not be best buddies with dictators anymore just because they benefit us; we should be on the side of the innocent and the helpless, and those thirsting for freedom. If Obummer would get off his rear-end and organize multilateral airstrikes against the Libyan military I'd applaud it!

Originally posted by mydarkpassenger

Originally posted by Skewed
I do agree to extents. However, when unarmed people start getting gunned down, and if we are going to be a super power we need to act like one and go to those peoples aid. I do not fault the US in helping when the unarmed and the innocents are being murdered, but unfortunately we somehow find an ulterior motive to tack on to it. It is a shame we cannot just help someone because it is the right thing to do.

You got it dead to rights Skewed. We should not be best buddies with dictators anymore just because they benefit us; we should be on the side of the innocent and the helpless, and those thirsting for freedom. If Obummer would get off his rear-end and organize multilateral airstrikes against the Libyan military I'd applaud it!

And when those bombs fall on the innocent and helpless you will not be the wiser will you?

The US influences too much and it will make a case for the Islamic- conservo - fascists

Haven't you noticed that we get burned everytime we interfere? If not now, in 20 years...

Next is the cost -

The unions in protest could be maintained with the same amount of money we spend in 8 hours in regards to our two current wars. We could eliminate ALL the states debts if we stopped the machine for a couple months.

Meanwhile we are ready to stomp eachother over livelihoods here

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Well really you should be talking about the American People, since really, they are the government.

All of your problems can be solved at the ballot box. If any industrialized nation at the moment had any decent politicians in power, they would be doing excellent. The world would be far better off. That can't happen unless some people in that country elect them though...

~Keeper

The thing now, is that democracy seems to be failing us. we get a choice of 2 sides of the same coin. One side may do things a little different to the other depending upon who is funding the candidates. But, as far as democracy goes it has been bought and paid for. It no longer represents the people just the corporate interests that it is there to represent.

Originally posted by sonofliberty1776
Originally posted by Skewed
However, when unarmed people start getting gunned down,

How does that make it our business? People die every day. If they die trying to bring about regime change, then at least they died for a cause. IT IS NOT OUR PLACE TO BE THE WORLD"S POLICE FORCE!!!

We are not being a police force when people are being murdered for resisting their government and speaking out, and at times they ask for our help. But, using your mindset, you are saying that it would be ok for me to walk right on by some person that is being violently attacked and to do nothing to help them?

and if we are going to be a super power we need to act like one and go to those peoples aid.

Says who? Our military SHOULD be used for defense only.

I say, that's who. In the Libya situation if we did step in, we would be using our military for defense, we would be defending innocent people. The downside to that is we would also have another motive.

I do not fault the US in helping when the unarmed and the innocents are being murdered, but unfortunately we somehow find an ulterior motive to tack on to it.
I do. We need to fix our own problems. How can we complain about the grain of sand in our neighbor's eye while a beam is firmly wedged in our own?

We can spare some time to help people from being murdered.

It is a shame we cannot just help someone because it is the right thing to do.
The real shame is that we cannot just mind our own business.

It appears to me, we are trying to stay out of it, to certain extents, and I know this comment will be nit-picked apart.

reply to post by Janky Red


How the heck are the bombs going to fall on the innocent, if military bases and aircraft are targeted exclusively?

We can set a bomb within 1 meter of target. Come again?

Originally posted by Blackmarketeer
The fall of Egyptian dictator Mubarak and now, the alleged shooting of Gadhafi, the turnover in Tunisia and unrest in Bahrain, shows that these countries CAN determine their own fate with little to no direct interference from the US,

I think your heart is in the right place,
but I think your theory is based upon
flawed intelligence.

The fall of these dictators was orchestrated,
trained, funded and propagated by external
forces including assets of the US Government.
The only thing this Islamic Revolution proves
is that the mass populace is susceptible to mind
control through external coercion.

The best protester is the one who does not
know he is being pawned.

reply to post by Skewed

For me it comes down to this...It is none of our damn business what these people do in their own countries. Then there is also the fact that every intervention we have ever gotten involved in has ended up hurting us in the long run.

I say, that's who.

Who are you and why should the soldiers, sailors and marines that would be injured and die in this intervention you propose give a damn what you think?

I say no more. Let us bring our people home and defend our borders. Let the navy and coast guard work to protect our shores. We have more than enough problems to fix here. When all or at least most of our problems are fixed, then maybe we could consider helping others. Right now, we can barely help ourselves. Charity begins at home. Let's go with that first and foremost.

nvm

How quickly we forget how past interference with foreign countries can end up not working in our favor. Remember the 1979 Iranian Revolution when our cozy relationship with this dictator came to an end and was replaced by the Ayotollah Khomeini and Ahmadinejad. Remember the 2006 Palestinian Parliament elections when Fatah lost to Hamas. Must I go on. The U.S. is paying a high price for our poor foreign policy decisions that have not worked out in our favor.

It is difficult to stand back and watch helplessly as thousands of innocent people are massacred by dictators our government has sold their souls to. We must remember though that these people have a love/hate relationship with the U.S. If we get directly involved, we risk entering into another scenario comparable to Iran. We must let democracy take its course no matter how tempting it is to intervene.

Last night, after looking at pictures of the fighting in Libya, I came across a picture of a mother and her dead son. I could not stop crying. I am a mother. I cannot imagine the pain and sorrow this mother was experiencing. Then I became riddled with guilt. Why are we just now truly feeling their pain. This has been happening for decades to families in the middle east. At this very moment there is another child dying in their mother's arms in Afghanistan from our very own drone attacks.

reply to post by tothetenthpower


I think that's really optimistic to say we have a choice in who gets elected as though it will make a difference. Politicians seem to rarely keep their promises and, as far as major elections go, it seems like all we ever get is a new face pushing the same agenda despite what their party may be.

I digress though. Back on the main topic, I agree that it's not the governments job to police the world but I don't think that's a policy that's going to change any time soon. I hear that the government is about to cut back funding on a lot of things, education included, which is absurd considering that the most intelligent (at least in my opinion) course of action would be to simply cut back funding for our worldwide presence.

What I don't understand is how the U.S. government can consider this kind of behaviour fiscally responsible. The U.S. debt is beyond comprehension, if the U.S. started paying $500,000/day today it would take about 70,000 years to pay it off. Yet they're still acting like they have money to burn...

How long will it be until the system crashes because that seems like the only solution with the way they're spending money. You can't be a super power if your insolvent.

Either we use our military to protect our nationally registered business interests abroad, or we let them contract out Private Military Contractors.

The problem with the second option is simple. People like myself will come along and develop and sell weapon solutions to those companies that far surpass our standard arsenal in use today. It's not that great of a stretch - some of our # still uses vacuum tubes and fiberglass composites. That's -so- 1960s, and even small companies could easily develop structurally and computationally superior solutions.

Then we have share holders deciding when to go to war and when not to go to war. With the board of directors and CEOs making executive (yet limited) decisions with regards to force allocation.

Doesn't really matter that much to me - the second environment promises more action and potential to test and analyze the performance of milspec designs to better develop future products. As it's been said - people are going to die no matter what happens, I couldn't really give a damned unless it's someone I personally care about.

In either case - we as a society or we as an economic power have a duty and responsibility to ensure the safety and security of internationally produced goods and services. That's really all there is to it.

I totally agree. We have too many foreign entanglements and foreign influences and as a result, have abused our own National interests, well being and business.

Are we an independent Nation or are we trying to rule the world to the creation of a global power structure? We are trying to rule the world and our elite are perfectly willing to sacrifice our Nation and people in that ultimate cause. They are willing to sacrifice other nations and peoples for the same end.