Discordianism - A Weapon Against the Elite/NWO

reply to post by Doomzilla

Hey my brother .
Glad to see the thread in all its beauty ,nicely laid out and well reasoned .
Well done man.
Im glad your receiving the credit you deserve .
Good job bro .

And thank you my brother, for your support in these trying times
I keep probing for flaws, but yet I can not find any... it is just as simple as telling the elite, "no."

reply to post by Davian

I agree in that sense. We shouldn't go back to the stone age.

I myself am amazed with space exploration for instance. Think of what we can do with technology.

Technology is awesome.

Ok, you like space exploration - so how can humanity progress through the stagnation of it's potential? If we are unleashed from the bonds of elitism, wouldn't technology grow unchecked by leaps and bounds? If technology is only checked with that of what is born out of Chaos (Love), it would never be used for harmful purposes to kill fellow humans.
Look, I work so I can support my family - but wouldn't I rather work to support humanity out of love? Imagine getting up in the morning and actually working for a cause rather than an effect.
Peace.

reply to post by Royal76

No it isn't. I believe its a weapon of the NWO/Elite. Cause the revolutions, and soon they will swoop in under the guise of saving, or bringing order to the lawless. But they will never leave, that is until they have the leadership they want in charge. The ones who will vote yes, when it comes time to join the African, Middle East, etc. state. As we begin our path to a one world government.

Look, I know my posting was long - but I think you just read the title and nothing more. Please, for arguments sake, read it and then post your thoughts. Cause what revolution? Who is going to revolt? You didn't read what I wrote. Read it all.

HAIL ERIS!

Thank you Kroms33 for posting this & bringing further illumination to our struggle against the New Word fnOrder!

The LGBT Qabal sends you our happy thoughts & mind waves of ecstatic discord! May the porous face of Our Lady shine bright upon you or something...

ALL HAIL DISCORDIA!


I AM,

LORD DREGOS NOBEYLE,
High Fructose, Keeper of the Citric Acid,
Diviner of Jelly Beans, LGBT Qabal


For those seeking further illumination, consult your pineal gland.

Technology is privilege not right, but at the same time it is like relationships between drug and the addicted.

I was into this kind of philosophies many years ago and let me add this pearl of wisdom to your excellent post.

"All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningful in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense".

If we honestly understand the text above, then our mind will be free of all tendencies to believe that "thinking alone" can solve everything.

We will thereby, rendered delightfully empty and robustly innocent, allowing us to enjoy the "irrational bliss" that life will soon offering us.


Thanks again for your excellent post kroms33 S&F

reply to post by amkia

Originally posted by amkia
Technology is privilege not right, but at the same time it is like relationships between drug and the addicted.

Exactly. This can be also viewed as an addiction to the elite as well. Why do we continue to feed their system? Couldn't our way of life be maintained with out money? If 7 billion people in the world would just love each other, woudln't everyone work towards the betterment of humanity? There would be no need for materialsitic addiction, political addiction... people would be free.

Imagine walking into a food store and taking what you needed because of the over abundance of food supplied, imagine walking into an electronics store without paying for a computer or MP3 player because each and every person on the planet can have what they want at any time. This can happen, all without money.
But as you ahve stated, people are addicted to their material wealth that the elite hold in front of them without realizing our world would progress further without them.

I was into this kind of philosophies many years ago and let me add this pearl of wisdom to your excellent post.

"All affirmations are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningful in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense".

If we honestly understand the text above, then our mind will be free of all tendencies to believe that "thinking alone" can solve everything.

We will thereby, rendered delightfully empty and robustly innocent, allowing us to enjoy the "irrational bliss" that life will soon offering us.


Thanks again for your excellent post kroms33 S&F

Thank you for your post - it just adds to my belief even more. Even Discordia is just a name for something that seems to be truer than our current course. What matters are the actions... the actions of the elite are waking the many... (I hope).

Thank you. The Golden Apple is an excellant symbol of resistance. It revival is pure renaissance at its best. I heard it first watching bruce lee and I had to use it is my signature. I believe it is the condensed version of your post.

Amen! I think the lyrics to Within You Without You by the beatles reflect very well in the current condition of today, I'll post 'em for people to take a quick peak into. With our love, we could save the world... If they only knew...

"We were talking-about the space between us all
And the people-who hide themselves behind a wall of illusion
Never glimpse the truth-then it's far too late-when they pass away.
We were talking-about the love we all could share-when we find it
To try our best to hold it there-with our love
With our love-we could save the world-if they only knew.
Try to realize it's all within yourself
No-one else can make you change
And to see you're really only very small,
And life flows ON within you and without you.
We were talking-about the love that's gone so cold and the people,
Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don't know-they can't see-are you one of them?
When you've seen beyond yourself-then you may find, peace of mind,
Is waiting there-
And the time will come when you see
we're all one, and life flows on within you and without you."

The OP has struck the vital nerve.
The whole future is as simple as a single refusal to play the games we are taught are essential to survival.
There you have it, just say no................................

Wow! Too much for my tired brain, however....

I agree whole heartedly people are controlled or manipulated only by their own volition. We except paper money only because we all agree to it. Only a slim minority run the show because we agree to it. Look at Egypt. After a week or two of "we no longer agree", out goes thirty plus years of control.

Instead of bad news or reading this as disheartening, I feel it is good stuff. As in "is that really all that is separating me from them?".

I love your sentiment.
You think a long the same lines as I do.

But I am disheartened knowing that so many that love this thread and believe in it... Still do the 9-5 grind and feed the very system you tell them to starve.

Too many believe this is the right way to go but will not take those vital first steps to disconnect themselves from it; before knowing someone else has, and it's safe to do so.

Too many do I see still going to shopping centers and buying food items that contain zero nutritional value.
Too many do I see buy food that they themselves can grow very easily in the backyard.
Too many do I see not sharing what they have with those that do not.
With the sharing, I am not referring to the world or people in other states. I am referring to those that they consider friends and even family.

In order for people to feel safe disconnecting from this machine, we need to create a safety net.
A safety net that will ensure that they can emerge from their old ways to a new life that will support not only themselves, but those around them.
This net is something that many are now trying to implement at the chagrin of their local Governments.

Local communities with their own food co-ops. Communities that have organised all that are involved to supply some sort of food, commodity or skill so that the community as a whole, can survive and grow.

Only within these small communities can we truly survive without the machine. Only then will we need no other to help us.

Only then... Will we be free.

reply to post by cupocoffee


Yeah, kick out the JAMS brothers & sisters!

Sorry I'm late here... I had to go do my background homework in the concepts presented in order to formulate some sort of notion of what they represented.

I started with the "Principia Discordia", 4th (Yellow Cover) ed. It was well written, a tapestry of words concealing concepts and nuggets of truth form those who won't be able - yet - to follow the flow and make the connections. To them it will present itself as unintelligible nonsense, which to my way of thinking is the most brilliant part of the writing. It's hidden in plain sight.

Regarding the "elite", well, I just don't believe in them. Oh, I believe there are those who THINK they are "elite", but as for actually being so, I don't believe it for a second, not an instant. They seem to me to be legends in their own minds, unknowing and unrealizing the fragility of their chosen "station" in life. They seem to be oblivious to the fact that if one fine day everyone got up and said "It's a beautiful day. To hell with work, I'm going fishing" their entire "reality" would suddenly crumble right around their own ears. They would be nothing, nothing at all, and likely wouldn't even have a clue as to how to go fishing themselves. If the rest of us are "nothings", "peasants", "peons" in their worldview, their very inability to function at all without us makes them what? Something less than that.

Dependents.

Unfortunately, I don't believe in "love" either. As near as I can tell, it's nothing more than a word people use when they are trying to wheedle something out of you. Grand concept, flawed execution. Just another word folks use to try putting order into Kaos to their own advantage. Sure, I help folks when I can, and have even risked life and limb to do so. Didn't have anything to do with "love", though. I just had something they didn't, and it was what they needed at the time, so I gave. All the "love" I got in return involved scar tissue, both physical and psychic. Ah well, that's just the way it goes, and it is as it is. I'd do the same again, because I can't think of anything better to do. I'd just be a bit more selective of the recipients of the benefits of it. We're only here for a while, and so NO damage is permanent.

I've been able to see the Fnord for some time now, and it seems to me that it's the key to the whole thing. You can't just acknowledge it or ignore it, you have to actively call it out. It's not enough to be able to see that the Emperor's new clothes are not really there at all, you have to let the Emperor know that you can see that, and you ain't scared of him in the slightest. His "stuff" is hanging out, and it's funny as hell. Even funnier that he can't see that himself, as he's bought the illusion, and paid in good gold for it, and you just find that hilarious. What's he gonna do? We're only her for a short time, whether he does anything or not. In the end, it's all the same.

Speaking of gold, I've never quite grasped why it has any value at all, much less enough to back an exchange system. It's cold, it's hard, you can't eat it, and it's not much good for anything at all besides conducting electricity, so why do people fall all over themselves to amass it? In the end, it will be in the hands of someone else - you can't really take it with you, no pockets, y'know? - and you will have wasted an entire life tripping all over yourself to get what you can't keep. Where is the logic in that?

Where is the VALUE?

For the most part, I don't really care whether Kaos or Order is the rule of the day - as long as whichever it is leaves me alone to BE. Unfortunately, that is not to be. This recent unrest sweeping the world has come home, hit the city right next to me just the other day, in the form of the Union Protests. As is the usual case with unions, it was not sufficient for them to merely protest, they had to assault passersby who had no dog in that fight. I expect it will be here shortly, and then it's once more into the breach.

And so it goes.

Folks all over the world appear to THINK they're "waking up", but they're not. They are just seeing that someone else has something, and they want that for themselves. They appear to be perfectly willing to give up what they have in order to launch themselves into that vulnerable place occupied by the "elite", co-opting that place for themselves, so that they can have more "stuff", never realizing the vulnerable spot they are vying to take. They THINK they are awakening, but they can't see beyond the illusion. Worse yet, they don't think anyone else can, either, and so assume that we ALL want to take that spot they want.

I don't want it, not even slightly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that I'll be coming under fire as much as the next guy, simply because they can't conceive of what I'm saying - they can't conceive that someone would NOT want to be in that vulnerable position. Just as the SEIU goons recently did in Greensboro NC, they will blindly attack folks who don't have a dog in their fight, simply because they are incapable of realizing that there are folks in the world who just don't care about their pursuits, and would rather just get on with their own lives. Oddly, they think we all HAVE to be on one side or the other of their little dramas, and will pre-emptively attack.

The "elites", sensing but not comprehending the vulnerability of their tenuous positions (Khaddafi is a good example) will of course counter attack, to attempt to preserve what they don't even really have, and can in no way, by no means, hold on to forever. The rest of us, and especially those who don't really give a damn one way or the other WHO thinks they're at the top of the heap, will without a doubt be caught in the crossfire.

Because THEY can't see beyond the illusion, we will ALL suffer for it.

And so it goes.

star and flag for you too my friend, same as the other post about Chicago the next possible false flag. It was a good read today, two long posts well worth it.

thanks a lot mates!

reply to post by kroms33


Absolutely fascinating and beautiful take on the world as we know it. I think that to view our society in this respect makes a lot of sense, and instead of inducing doom and gloom, it gives a certain room for joy and optimism for the bonds we all can create with each other. I've been lurking here on ATS for quite awhile, but finally joined today, in part so I could flag this. Thanks for the inspiration.

reply to post by nenothtu

Sorry I'm late here... I had to go do my background homework in the concepts presented in order to formulate some sort of notion of what they represented.

Welcome, and your words are welcome.

Unfortunately, I don't believe in "love" either. As near as I can tell, it's nothing more than a word people use when they are trying to wheedle something out of you. Grand concept, flawed execution. Just another word folks use to try putting order into Kaos to their own advantage. Sure, I help folks when I can, and have even risked life and limb to do so. Didn't have anything to do with "love", though. I just had something they didn't, and it was what they needed at the time, so I gave. All the "love" I got in return involved scar tissue, both physical and psychic. Ah well, that's just the way it goes, and it is as it is. I'd do the same again, because I can't think of anything better to do. I'd just be a bit more selective of the recipients of the benefits of it. We're only here for a while, and so NO damage is permanent.

If you read my posting, you would note that there is nothing but Chaos, and that order and disorder are only illusions imposed upon Chaos... but that is besides the point, and an extraction from the real matters of your feelings. I do not know you personally, nor do I know the horrors of what you had to go through in your life. We all witness this life differently. Love is just a word, but the word defines an emotional concept in which one feels.
I don't want to impose any views upon you - and if you don't believe in "love" I accept that. But realize this, even though I do not know you - I feel for you brother. The sense of dread in your post has affected me because it sounds like you have given up. I know love... I feel love daily. I have a son who melts my heart... I feel it physically and emotionally. I feel for you because you have cut it from your emotional state. Either forcibly or by choice you have segregated yourself, or have been segregated. Why?

Wheedling... I am not trying to "wheedle" anything out of you - not at all. I simply addressed the only way to remove ourselves from enslavement would be to follow a certain path. I see a growing trend to "rise up and kill" our "masters" - why kill? Just don't participate is all I ask. Don't join in the system that wants everyone dead. We all feel it coming do we not? Why not take measures to uplift humanity instead of destroy it...

For the most part, I don't really care whether Kaos or Order is the rule of the day - as long as whichever it is leaves me alone to BE. Unfortunately, that is not to be. This recent unrest sweeping the world has come home, hit the city right next to me just the other day, in the form of the Union Protests. As is the usual case with unions, it was not sufficient for them to merely protest, they had to assault passersby who had no dog in that fight. I expect it will be here shortly, and then it's once more into the breach.

See the illusion. Don't embrace it and point to one particular group. It is an illusion, what is it they fight for? Look at both sides - what are they fighting over? LOOK DEEP my friend. They are fighting over the same thing, why?

Folks all over the world appear to THINK they're "waking up", but they're not. They are just seeing that someone else has something, and they want that for themselves. They appear to be perfectly willing to give up what they have in order to launch themselves into that vulnerable place occupied by the "elite", co-opting that place for themselves, so that they can have more "stuff", never realizing the vulnerable spot they are vying to take. They THINK they are awakening, but they can't see beyond the illusion. Worse yet, they don't think anyone else can, either, and so assume that we ALL want to take that spot they want.

Perhaps you are right? So, step out of the illusion. You allude to people THINKING they're "waking up" but they are not... perhaps not, so guide them, teach them. They are made of the same flesh and blood that runs through your veins. Perhaps your words or beliefs are more powerful than other people?

I don't want it, not even slightly, but I'll bet dollars to donuts that I'll be coming under fire as much as the next guy, simply because they can't conceive of what I'm saying - they can't conceive that someone would NOT want to be in that vulnerable position. Just as the SEIU goons recently did in Greensboro NC, they will blindly attack folks who don't have a dog in their fight, simply because they are incapable of realizing that there are folks in the world who just don't care about their pursuits, and would rather just get on with their own lives. Oddly, they think we all HAVE to be on one side or the other of their little dramas, and will pre-emptively attack.

They will blindly attack - but yet again, you need to refur to exactly what I have written. I do think I left an 'out' for humanity. Why would I raise my hand against another person but in defence of myself or family? If SHTF, this country (USA) will see terror at the hands of the government never before witnessed by humanity. They want it to happen... it is falling into place to quickly - it seems planned.

The "elites", sensing but not comprehending the vulnerability of their tenuous positions (Khaddafi is a good example) will of course counter attack, to attempt to preserve what they don't even really have, and can in no way, by no means, hold on to forever. The rest of us, and especially those who don't really give a damn one way or the other WHO thinks they're at the top of the heap, will without a doubt be caught in the crossfire.

Because THEY can't see beyond the illusion, we will ALL suffer for it.

Ah - the top of the heap... see, in what I wrote - there is no "top of the heap" - there is just "us". I could come up with some pretty words, try to convince you - but that is not my cause. My cause is to show that we are all living under the illusion of false rule - and perhaps how to stop it.

Look, one can surmize that EVERYTHING is an illusion - so if everything is, what is the point of trying anyway? I mean, why get up out of bed? Why work? Why eat?

We have needs my friend (and yes - you are my friend damn it). I don't care about how you feel about unions, I don't care who you want to vote for, I don't care how much money you have or don't have - I do care how you feel and how you perceive the world around you.
You don't need to choose a side, you don't need to do anything really. If you feel that you are justified in your life and no one else matters but you (because you don't believe in love), no one can tell you differently. I respect you, and wish you no harm in your life. I am human, and I do not have all of life's answers... I learn daily.

Perhaps I have even misunderstood or misinterpreted what you have wrote...

Peace.

reply to post by sekos


Thanks for the reply - and yeah, I read that other thread... hits too close to home... literally.

I had doubts about posting this material... but, well... I did.

reply to post by RebuildLove


I am honored! Thank you so much for joining ATS!

I do hope things turn on the up side for the better I guess that is why I posted it. Instead of going out and fighting in the streets, we can just tell the elite "Enough!"

Thanks again for all of your kind words!

Peace.

Originally posted by kroms33

If you read my posting, you would note that there is nothing but Chaos, and that order and disorder are only illusions imposed upon Chaos...

That's true, but those who perceive it differently, through the filter of the illusion, will act upon that perception.

I don't want to impose any views upon you - and if you don't believe in "love" I accept that.

It's not all bad. I don't believe in "fear", either, since the way I see it, those two emotional constructs are inextricably linked. Each is nothing more than the other turned inside out.

But realize this, even though I do not know you - I feel for you brother. The sense of dread in your post has affected me because it sounds like you have given up.

Yup, I've pretty much given up. That's always subject to change providing that a light pops on at the end of the tunnel at some point. It's not so much dread as I'm just tired. Folks could be so much better off if they learned to work together to build, rather than trying to take and destroy. I've got serious doubts that will occur any time soon. I've grown tired of watching them want something someone else has, and decide the way to go about doing business it to attack and take. I've grown tired of watching them decide their opinion is the only valid way, and thinking they have to force the others to come around to their way of thinking. Spirited debated and the exchange of ideas for consideration is one thing, a healthy thing, but arm twisting and a pop in the yap to gain compliance of thought is quite another.

The deal in Greensboro nearly set me off. I don't like unions, not even slightly. Still, I'm absolutely willing to let them live their own lives in their own way, provided they don't try to force that on the rest of us. I was a member of SEIU for about 8 months, quit when I couldn't take it any more - giving them money for nothing. I never saw a bit of good come out of them, but I never saw the violence they've promoted lately, either - not from them. I've seen it before from the UMWA and the Teamsters, but never first-hand from SEIU. They all just need to understand that I care less than nothing about their petty squabbles, and if they think they'll force me to care like they tried in Greensboro, they'd best think again. They'll not get the sort of "caring" they think, and I'll not be poking flowers into the ends of their gun barrels, figurative or literal. More about this apparent stress on unions in a bit. I'm not singling them out, just using them as an example.

I know love... I feel love daily. I have a son who melts my heart... I feel it physically and emotionally. I feel for you because you have cut it from your emotional state. Either forcibly or by choice you have segregated yourself, or have been segregated. Why?

I have a son as well. I sent him away so that he won't be in the middle of this mess when it hits. Emotions and having to worry about who else I have to look out for are not luxuries that I think I can afford at the moment. I believe it's about to get unbelievably bad, and he has a much better chance of making it where he is. I myself stand a much better chance of making it through if I don't stand in danger of breaking down and losing it over every little thing, and if I have freedom of motion without having to look out for him.

With any luck, I'll be proven wrong in that assessment, and all will be well. That would be best.

I see a growing trend to "rise up and kill" our "masters" - why kill? Just don't participate is all I ask. Don't join in the system that wants everyone dead. We all feel it coming do we not? Why not take measures to uplift humanity instead of destroy it...

People in general are pretty vindictive. They allow things to get so far out of hand as a collective that emotions like "anger" or "fear" take over, then they get that urge to kill, to strike out at what they perceive as their oppressors, to crush rather than avoid or ignore. It's mostly the anger demanding an outlet, independent of rational thought. Conversely, the would be oppressors are generally motivated by a lust for power, which exhibits also as "fear", but fear tempered with hubris rather than honest anger. Before you know it, one "side" or the other strikes out, and it only takes one spark to start a raging brush fire. Whether you're among the "attackers", the "defenders" or just the innocent bystanders makes no difference at all once the conflagration starts.

I won't be among the attackers, but I won't balk at defending, either. Someone has to look out for the bystanders, since most of them are not emotionally able to look out for themselves. That's why they are bystanders. Common sense tells them they just want to be left alone, but the opposing camps will usually not allow that.

Sure, it would be by far best for all if folks could just learn to get along, and realize that differences don't have to come to blows, but those who are geared to that realization are still in the minority. It will take a Herculean effort to make it otherwise, and not all can BE brought to that realization. Differences can be wonderful things, and can lead to all sorts of advancements through challenging thoughts, but it seems there's always one joker in the bunch somewhere that will encroach on another in order to foist his brand of difference onto the other by force, and trouble ensues.

At some point, I think, a critical mass will be reached where those who have reached that realization will have a strong enough majority to make the encroachers or attackers irrelevant, but that time is not yet. Humans as a group are still too fearful. I further believe that there will always be among us those who try to take by force, or convince through force, but at some point they can be made irrelevant, not dangerous enough to really bother with.

See the illusion. Don't embrace it and point to one particular group. It is an illusion, what is it they fight for? Look at both sides - what are they fighting over? LOOK DEEP my friend. They are fighting over the same thing, why?

I only used the one group there as an example, but there are others, many others. The government comes to immediate mind, and they have bigger guns. Then there are all manner of smaller splinter groups, all vying for their piece of the pie, and willing to use force and extortion to take it, sometimes right on down to the individual level.

Yes, they all want the same thing - security. That most often manifests as a quest for power or riches. Further, that power seems not to be satisfactory to them unless it's power over others. It seems few are content to just have power over themselves, which, if you think about it, is the only real security there is.

This brings us to your question of "why". I personally believe the why of it is fear - or, more properly, the perception that there is something to be afraid of. A lack of feeling secure. Fear is an artificial construct, but the perception that it needs to be in place for one reason or another is a powerful motivator. I believe it all boils down, in almost all cases, to them thinking that they will lose control of their own lives if they don't have enough money - power - like minded people - name the poison - to insulate themselves from the world at large. That seems to be true of government types, union types, nearly all of the "groups" represented in this soup we have boiling these days.

In a word, insecurity.

I could be wrong here. It could just be simple greed, but again I think greed is based upon the perception that there is something they need to fear. They seem not to realize that all the "stuff" they amass is what will hold them in bondage. They become slaves to it, yet always and ever seek more.

I arrived at that conclusion by growing up dirt poor - but free as the biggest buck a-going. I went through a period of amassing "stuff" too, and recall the misery of having to worry about it, and coming to the realization that all my "freedom" had been given up for it. I no longer controlled myself, my "stuff" controlled me. It kept me pinned down, worrying about who might try to take it. That sort of servitude is worse than any an external source can impose - it's slavery imposed by self, and there ain't no getting away from it as long as you worry over your "stuff".

Perhaps you are right? So, step out of the illusion. You allude to people THINKING they're "waking up" but they are not... perhaps not, so guide them, teach them. They are made of the same flesh and blood that runs through your veins. Perhaps your words or beliefs are more powerful than other people?

I can try to guide them, I can try to teach them, but ultimately the guidance and learning will have to come from within themselves. All I can really do is provide concepts for folks to ponder and consider - most of which will be rejected out of hand. When the ground is fertile, the seed takes root. Otherwise it just withers, and you look to the next season. The planting goes on every season regardless, and what grows, grows as conditions allow. You can water it, you can fertilize, but ultimately it's out of your hands. All you can do is try to foster the right conditions.

They will blindly attack - but yet again, you need to refur to exactly what I have written. I do think I left an 'out' for humanity. Why would I raise my hand against another person but in defence of myself or family? If SHTF, this country (USA) will see terror at the hands of the government never before witnessed by humanity. They want it to happen... it is falling into place to quickly - it seems planned.

No one should ever raise a hand against another but in defense. If all followed that tenet, there would be nothing to defend against. A beautiful concept, is it not?

If the SHTF, the terror from the government will be a sight to behold, but it won't be limited to the government as a source. There are a LOT of scared, angry folks out there who will lash out mindlessly. I expect it will be six weeks, or maybe a little more, before it settles out enough to tell who's who, and actual "sides" crystallize. Even then, there may be more than one side - there are always at least 3. "That" side, "this" side, and those caught in the middle, which BOTH of the other sides OUGHT to be worrying about protecting, but rarely ever do.

Ah - the top of the heap... see, in what I wrote - there is no "top of the heap" - there is just "us". I could come up with some pretty words, try to convince you - but that is not my cause. My cause is to show that we are all living under the illusion of false rule - and perhaps how to stop it.

True enough, there is no "top of the heap", which is what I tried to convey when I said that I don't recognize any "elites", just those who THINK they are elites. Understand, however, that while you and I may realize that, THEY don't. They still live under the illusion, and will act according to their perceptions. This is where the strife originates - their perceptions, filtered through the illusion.

We have needs my friend (and yes - you are my friend damn it). I don't care about how you feel about unions, I don't care who you want to vote for, I don't care how much money you have or don't have - I do care how you feel and how you perceive the world around you.
You don't need to choose a side, you don't need to do anything really. If you feel that you are justified in your life and no one else matters but you (because you don't believe in love), no one can tell you differently. I respect you, and wish you no harm in your life. I am human, and I do not have all of life's answers... I learn daily.

Perhaps I have even misunderstood or misinterpreted what you have wrote...

Peace.

EVERYONE matters. Everyone. Even those who would impose themselves on the rest, even the "elites", even they matter. I just won't allow that to color my decisions where the rubber meets the road if and when they exercise that attempted imposition. I realize they labor under an illusion, likely borne of "fear". "greed", "insecurity" or any one of a number of emotional attachments, but that doesn't excuse their imposition on the rest, it only explains it. Whether it's a government trying to force me to look after my own health as THEY see fit, or a union trying to force me into their collective for strength in numbers, it's all the same to me - an attempt to impose their will on my being. It will not be allowed to stand. When they attempt that forced imposition, my "side" is chosen for me. Otherwise, I'm perfectly content to live and let live.

It's an attempt to enforce their particular perception of the illusion.

Here's the way I perceive this. I'll try to make it comprehensible, and effort which I am frequently lacking in.

I'm free. You're free. We are all free. We are born that way, out of the Kaos if you will. What could be freer than complete lack of both order and disorder? I think Buddhists refer to that as "Nirvana", but Kaos works as well. It has just come to be associated in the popular mind with disorder, for some reason. This freedom can never be taken. we can't even willingly give it up. it just IS, and always will be. It's non-transferrable, because everyone has their own, to the exact same degree - complete freedom.

What happens is, the illusion of order is imposed on it. The illusion of government. We may (and most do) comply with that illusion, more or less enslaving ourselves. Even then, the freedom is there. We are STILL free, whether we act upon that or not. The way in which we relate to the world, and the others in it, is determined by how tightly we cling to that illusion of order. We - you, I, and everyone else - will regulate ourselves to the precise degree we think necessary, based upon those perceptions, illusory or not.

Servitude, whether servitude to a government, servitude to self, servitude to others, or servitude to a ping pong ball, is always self-imposed. The underlying freedom, the reality beneath all the perceptions, is still there, always has been, always will be.

We need only to reclaim it.

Wow!! I know its already been said but man this is an amazing thread, one of the best ops Ive read since joining ATS, if I could flag this thread a thousand times over I would because everybody everywhere needs to read this!!
I hope you dont mind but Ive saved your post to my computer, not to use as something of my own creation you understand, but because its so inspiring.... Ive been going through my own kind of awakening to concepts you have touched upon but have found it hard putting into words, so thankyou