Why Good and Bad Can't Really Exist

To those that focuses too intensely on whether good or bad "exist". You are missing the point.

It's not like we can all suddenly shift our mode of thinking to a non-polarizing state. But the point here is that while you can FUNCTIONALLY think something is good or bad it does not apply to the whole reality. These judgement are merely the work of PERCEPTION. The minute you let that go beyond yourself you start to create problems for other people. The tao te jing says that:

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

Because the second you put something into words or terms, you take away from its essence and limit it only to what you can describe. Thats why while you can still view everything from a polarized view, you cannot let yourself believe that this is all that there is. And this is why tao can't be taught, because the second I tell you my interpretation of it, you will be listening to my opinions instead of looking at the source. The darkness is infinite and lets you see what you want and you can get anything you want from it, but you have to realize you are only looking at yourself. Don't let your perceptions be the end all be all.

This is the moral of the story:

THE FARMER’S SON
There is an old, old story about a farmer in China, One year the weather was very good and
his crops grew strong and high, and all his neighbours told him how lucky he was to have
such a fine crop and he replied, ‘Maybe’. Then the day before he was going to start the
harvest a herd of wild horses came running off the plains and trampled all his crops flat. His
neighbours came around and said how unlucky he was to lose his fine crop. The framer
replied, ‘Maybe’. The next day the farmer’s son went out with a length of rope and caught a
wild stallion and three mares, and the neighbours came round to admire the horses and told
the farmer how lucky he was. The farmer said, ‘Maybe’. In the morning the farmer’s son
started to break in the horses and no sooner had he mounted the stallion than it threw him, and
as he fell on the ground he broke his leg. The neighbours carried him indoors and commiserated with
the farmer, saying how unlucky he was that his only son was so badly injured. The farmer said, ‘Maybe’.
The next day the Emperor’s army came to the village on the way to fight a great battle and all the
able-bodied young men were pressganged into the army. But the farmer’s son was not taken because
if his broken leg. All his neighbours told the farmer how lucky he was that his son had been saved from
the army and the farmer said, ‘Maybe’

Originally posted by The GUT
"And don't tell me that the child agreed to it before they came here. Or that it's their 'karma' for a past life because you can't possibly support that with an intellectual argument."

What is it about that scenario(that "we" agreed to do certain things to eachother prior) that you can't accept?
What would be the "problem" if it were in fact the case, that we agree to such things?

Originally posted by Onboard2
True, because life is about experiences and they are not good or bad and we learn from our experiences. Duality was born from judgement.

It's not really true, it exists without judgment, the most clear of duality would be day and night.
It's really left or right, minus or plus, come to think of it everything has it's dual nature without judgement.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Onboard2
True, because life is about experiences and they are not good or bad and we learn from our experiences. Duality was born from judgement.

It's not really true, it exists without judgment, the most clear of duality would be day and night.
It's really left or right, minus or plus, come to think of it everything has it's dual nature without judgement.

But it does have judgment. You think day is opposite of night and left is opposite from left. While these might be things that people usually agree are opposites, it is only so because we judge it to be so. Without a human mind to interpret these things, these things just are. Only a human mind feels the need to explain them in absolute terms.

reply to post by pepsi78


Not a judgment, more of an assumption really, not seeing the actual truth of it. A misjudgment, if anything.
Night and day, are they two? Or do they actually blend into to each other, a rolling circle. It's that yin and yang symbol. I wonder what a 3d representation would be like.
Everything blends into each other, yet we split it up into pieces and name each object, or turn it into a measurement. The measuring and naming is a judgment (or misjudgment).
The first, original misjudgment (sin) was 'thinking' that there is 'me' and other than me (the world). Straight away duality is born. This 'thinking' creates the 'me', that feels separate from the world. The world of duality is born out of the feeling of separation.
'This' and 'that' arise, when really there is only this.

A coin is heads and tails, this is seen to be duality. Yet the coin is just one coin, non duality. When the world (heads) is seen as separate from me (tails), i am not seeing the whole picture, the truth. Really i am the whole coin.

reply to post by kynaccrue


I like this tao verse you have written.
Here it talks of the unnameable and how naming is origin of all particular things.
The 'things' are all things that can be named, all, including feelings, thoughts, words, tables, chairs, the body. All that is nameable are experiences, or sensations. The unnameable is the receiver of the sensation, the seer, witness. It can not be named, as it is not a thing. All things are passing, but the no thing is ever present and unchanging. The unnameable, eternal real.
The No Thing and the Every Thing can not exist without each other, like heads and tails within a coin.

Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Onboard2
True, because life is about experiences and they are not good or bad and we learn from our experiences. Duality was born from judgement.

It's not really true, it exists without judgment, the most clear of duality would be day and night.
It's really left or right, minus or plus, come to think of it everything has it's dual nature without judgement.

It seems to be that way, but Stephen Hawking says a black hole is made of light. It's definitely a dualistic world depending on perception and even in the Christian bible the followers are instructed not to eat of it, lol. There is nothing in the dark that isn't contained in the light. Mix all the colors of the spectrum and we have white;mix them backwards and we have black.

Originally posted by scratchmane

Originally posted by The GUT
"And don't tell me that the child agreed to it before they came here. Or that it's their 'karma' for a past life because you can't possibly support that with an intellectual argument."

What is it about that scenario(that "we" agreed to do certain things to eachother prior) that you can't accept?
What would be the "problem" if it were in fact the case, that we agree to such things?

You are scary as hell, scratchmane. With that kind of truly unsupportable thinking one could excuse their own reprehensible behavior for just about anything...and I suspect that's the motive for most who embrace this society damaging philosophy.

I'll co-exist with you on ATS, but if you were my neighbor I would not only keep a very close eye on you but would be annoying as possible in an attempt to chase you from the neighborhood. Shame on you if you do actually believe that gobbedly-gook.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
Night and day, are they two? Or do they actually blend into to each other, a rolling circle. It's that yin and yang symbol.

You could look at it either way, you're right, and both ways of looking at it would be equally valid. It has nothing to do with something "out there" saying they are two things, or one thing, or trillions and trillions of particles that make up the whole rotation, even though you can look at these things however you want to. That arbitrariness is the point. These perceptions don't actually exist outside of our brains.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by scratchmane

Originally posted by The GUT
"And don't tell me that the child agreed to it before they came here. Or that it's their 'karma' for a past life because you can't possibly support that with an intellectual argument."

What is it about that scenario(that "we" agreed to do certain things to eachother prior) that you can't accept?
What would be the "problem" if it were in fact the case, that we agree to such things?

You are scary as hell, scratchmane.

With that kind of truly unsupportable thinking one could excuse their own reprehensible behavior for just about anything...and I suspect that's the motive for most who embrace this society damaging philosophy.

I'll co-exist with you on ATS, but if you were my neighbor I would not only keep a very close eye on you but would be annoying as possible in an attempt to chase you from the neighborhood. Shame on you if you do actually believe that gobbedly-gook.

Well even if we get rid of preconceptions about child rape and stuff, I'd doubt that we will all suddenly be raping children. You might think that thinking one thing is good or bad is the only thing holding you back but if don't have the urge to do it then you won't. Not to mention I don't think its possible to stop thinking in those terms completely.

reply to post by bsbray11


To say something is good or bad is a value statement. That is that by stating either about something is reflecting your morals outward.

If you ever come across an idiot who tries to be dark and cool by stating "I have no morals"...you can counter him now by saying, "Look dipstick...you obviously have no idea what morals are. You think that someone who 'has morals' is considered good. This is not the case. Every person is a moral person just as every society is a moral society. Morals, you ignorant fool, are simply acceptable and agreed upon values that shape a society (and through it the individuals). They are merely accepted patterns...neither good or bad."

Though of course you will get the people who will call this above statement a "justification for genocide" the "how could you say genocide ISNT wrong"...but that simply means they did not understand a damn thing about the definition provided. I believe genocide IS wrong as do many...because that is the agreed upon pattern of values in most societies.

reply to post by Cecilofs


"If we don't want the situation to occur in the first place, then we need to basically design it out of society. Address the actual root causes of these acts, which is people who have experienced pain themselves and not healed fully. They go on to complete the cycle by abusing someone else. The only way to break the cycle is to heal all of those affected. This goes not only for molestation but all forms of violence."

Yes well what is the point? If we are making no judgements of right/wrong or if there is no good or evil why would we bother to design these things out of society? Why would we even think to move in that direction?

reply to post by scratchmane


It would be difficult to think in these terms while in the midst of suffering abuse at anothers hand; that in some cosmic place, before being born, this was agreed upon as a thing to experience. Could you hold to these ideas while being abused?
Not to pick on your world view too much there is a situation that would put a strain or challenge on anyones particular world view.

Though I am a big fan of Shakespeare...

Good and bad does exist:
poop smells bad
not like food at all.
A biological organisim can not live in it's own waste.

While good and bad can be relative terms there are times when Bad means Bad.

As May West so eloquently said:
"Honey, when I am good I'm great, but when I'm bad I'm Better!"

no good and bad?
heh heh no way man

Originally posted by Danbones
Though I am a big fan of Shakespeare...
Good and bad does exist:
poop smells bad
not like food at all.

That's really good practical advice and I agree with you wholeheartedly, it does not smell like food, but at the same time I have to realize that even this "goodness" and "badness" depends upon me, well, not being a canine...

Originally posted by The GUT
You are scary as hell, scratchmane.

With that kind of truly unsupportable thinking one could excuse their own reprehensible behavior for just about anything...and I suspect that's the motive for most who embrace this society damaging philosophy.

Is that thinking really unsupportable? How so? Still haven't presented a coherent case that it is, except perhaps that it makes you feel uncomfortable, or so it would seem to me

Originally posted by LafingWithTears
reply to post by scratchmane

 

It would be difficult to think in these terms while in the midst of suffering abuse at anothers hand; that in some cosmic place, before being born, this was agreed upon as a thing to experience. Could you hold to these ideas while being abused?
Not to pick on your world view too much there is a situation that would put a strain or challenge on anyones particular world view.

Not sure if this particular body would be able to turn the other cheek.

As an analogy: You go to the movies, you see one person hit another, while a third screams in the background. The persons involved are for all intent and purposes of the movie, oblivious to the fact that they agreed to the scene. "ok ok, you stand here...I lunge out with my right hand, and you in the background scream as my punch connects ok?" Everyone agrees, and the scene is played out. When they finish they all go home unharmed, because what happened wasn't really "real"

Originally posted by LafingWithTears
reply to post by Cecilofs

 

Yes well what is the point? If we are making no judgements of right/wrong or if there is no good or evil why would we bother to design these things out of society? Why would we even think to move in that direction?

Its a good question and one that I can't fully answer, having not yet reached that understanding myself. In a similar vein - if there's no such thing as evil, why not do "evil" things?

We all have the potential for "good" and "evil" acts. If you see an insect on the ground you could potentially squash it or you could step over it. The universe doesn't care which direction you choose, but it will make sure you deal with the consequences. The consequences when we are talking about acts of violence would be how it makes you feel - and I imagine it wouldn't be pleasant. That and attracting further violence to yourself as a result. In that sense the violent act isn't "wrong", but it sets up further painful experiences for yourself and whoever the reciever was.

Now imagine if in the situation of abuse, a person instead chooses to form a trusting and supportive relationship with the child (having healed whatever trauma made them feel the need to abuse them). That will be enriching for both parties over their lives as the child grows up to become a high-functioning adult, while the would-be abuser gets the satisfaction of seeing that child flourish, which constantly re-affirms their choice.

I see said redesigning putting more of an emphasis on openness and acceptance, so that if these things occur then all parties get the required help they need to move through it and learn whatever they needed to learn from it, then move on with their lives. Rather than what happens now - we are encouraged to keep our pain locked up and hide it from the world, where it can fester and eventually cause all sorts of problems for you. Not only that, but your issues get passed directly to your children and so these cycles continue for generations until they are broken.

reply to post by bsbray11


So you do not have a bad day when they come in take you to a camp beat you and starve you.

that is just part of life as we know it.

Or it is not good when you find a bag of money that never gets claimed, you invent something that will help mankind.

Bah I say,

Morals and right and wrong are not subjective to the masses that is only said by those trying to get others to believe the hogwash so as to create a society of moral less people.