Live now: German, Chinese and American vessels in Libyan waters.

Originally posted by Echtelion
LestatG is clearly trolling with us.

If Chinese ships would enter the Mediterranean -especially WARSHIPS- you,d have it in the news everywhere.

This war hype is not very helpful in such crazy times, think about that next time before posting other rubbish of this kind, LestatG. Not very good for "peace".

I think you mis-read Lestat's post. He was saying that he heard about German warships with Chinese people (evacuees perhaps) on the Malta/Libya border. Could also be the Chinese evacuation team. He also said it was hearsay. China has asked mulitple countries to assist in evacuating their nationals and I'm sure the Turks, Greeks and Germans would oblige. I haven't found him to be war hyping at all.

reply to post by Echtelion


Please read the OP properly and check other news sources before coming to this thread and accusing me of being a troll. I did say that they may not be military.

Firstly I disclaimed that this might be hearsay and that I could not confirm everything I have written.

Secondly do your research and read the thread and the links provided, here you will see that most of this has been confirmed.

However, thanks for the contribution non the less.

Peace

Edit: Also this is not rubbish, this is happening in the place where I live, and I have not mentioned the word 'war' in any of my posts. Clearly you seeking to get a rise and this is not the thread or topic for this to happen.
Either post with integrity or please leave.

PEACE

Originally posted by tsawyer2

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
reply to post by schuyler

 

We have thousands upon thousands of troops in Europe, just north of Libya. 50,000 in Germany and almost 10,000 in Italy.

Aviano Air Base in Italy has the 31st Fighter Wing.

Spangdahlem Air Base in Germany has the 52nd Fighter Wing.

Ramstein Air Base in Germany has multiple wings that can provide airlift for US Army units stationed in Germany.

Then there is NATO Europe, which could contribute a massive amount of air power, naval power and ground forces.

The US Navy has it's 6th Fleet headquartered in Naples, Italy. They are responsible for US interests in the Med. I'm sure they have some ships around, probably just being quiet about it.

US Navy 6th Fleet

You should read your own link:

The principal striking power of the Sixth Fleet resides in its aircraft carriers and the modern jet aircraft, its submarines, and its reinforced battalion of US Marines on board amphibious ships deployed in the Mediterranean.

WHAT aircraft carriers? There are ZERO aircraft carriers now in the Mediterranean. There are ZERO "reinforced batallions of US Marines on board amphibious ships" in the Mediterranean. The "Sixth Fleet" is a concept, not a bunch of ships assigned to a fleet. What this paragraph is referring to is Carrier Strike Groups and Amphibious Ready Groups. The two nearest Carrier Strike Groups are now in the 5th Fleet "Area of Operations" (AOR) which is in the Arabian Gulf. They are the Enterprise and the Carl Vinson. The nearest Amhibious Ready Group is the Kearsarge, which is now in the Red Sea. However, the Kearsarge is short 1500 Mafrines (about half its contingent) because they are in Afghanistan. Every single other one of the carriers and the ready groups are either in port at Norfiolk or cruising in our own East coast waters. NONE of them are in the Mediterranean. So according to its own words, the 6th fleet is without its main components. I'm sure there are some destroyers running aroind the Med. but what would you have them do? Throw a thousand cruise missiles at Tripoli?

Now, let's address the "thousands of troops in Germany and Europe." and "hundreds of aircraft." Oh, really? The thing is, you're just looking at the numbers and not understanding what's behind them or the logistical issues in doing anything with them. Most of those "troops" are support personnel. Although they are consolidating, they occupy every single WWII German Army post in the country. After WWII the allies went in and took over every single one. Sometimes they are just a few buildings in a small city. I was just at one. It's in a small city called Darmstadt south of Frankfurt. The US Army maintains a presence there, but they are not exactly "troops." They are intelligence analysts who listen for "traffic" in places like Iraq. Their job is to listen in on every cell phone call and report anything of interest up the chain of command. They don't have a bunch of M-16s and they aren't waiting around to get parachute into Libya. They are in support roles and in a configuration that was originally designed to stop a Soviet tank advance across Europe.

Now about all those fighter planes. First look at a map. Let's say you wanted to get a fighter wing from Germany to Libya. Italy itself is over 750 miles long, so you're looking at probably 1500 miles from Germany to Libya. Now take the average F-15. If you put three external fuel tanks on it it just might be able to make the roundtrip at the expense of armanent (The extra fuel tanks mmount up to the same places as a sidewinder missile). So you're looking at significant mid-air refueling.

When you get right down to it, the logistics of mounting an air and ground assault against Libya are daunting and very logistically challenging. Any operation of this magnitude would take weeks if not months.

So, NO. We are not going to invade Libya any time soon. If we had a couple of Carrier Strike Groups and a couple of MEUs (Marine Expeditionary Units) off the coast of Libya, I'd think the opposite, but right now, despite the fact of troops in Europe, we simply do not have the manpower to do it. We could establish a no-fly zone if we wanted to, but that's just about it for right now.

Originally posted by CoincidenceX
To everyone wondering why Israel isn't stepping in - They kinda have their own problems right now Beer Sheva was hit by a rocket shot from Gaza....

For first time since Operation Cast Lead, Grad rocket from Gaza hits Be'er Sheva

www.haaretz.com...

Well here why Israel is still in the background

Think Iran is trying to make Israel believe it was indirectly involve there, did not work
Good for them used it as an excuse to hype the "Grad" as a new "Scud"... plus a "new" missile
Israel just fish testing a new anti-Scud off california coast with the US
Was on CNN few day's ago

Here the posting hope this is not trolling just my take on it
www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by schuyler


Dude, settle down. Your posts seem very harsh and knee jerk. Just back off a bit and relax. It is totally possible to conduct an invasion of Libya right now or in the near future. This could have been planned beforehand or it could not happen at all, but neither you or I or the OP could ever know for sure until it happens or not.

reply to post by schuyler


Sure, I believe it. Think about it. You wake up one day, and the government has tanks, and mercenaries stalking the streets, shooting at everything that moves. I'm surprised that it's not 90 percent of the population that wants to get the hell out of there.

By the way, I agree with Christian Voice. Star for you.

reply to post by schuyler


Just a little info.

I was in the USN in 1986 and in the America battle group, we were in the Med. for six months. I was involved in the "line of death" engagement and B-52's flew out of England to drop their bombs in addition to the the America airplanes. I know I've dated myself here but regardless if America wanted to they could have a carrier on station in no time at all and or fly planes out of Eurpoe to if they wanted to.

reply to post by schuyler



Starred your post

To expand on it....

The US Forces in Europe are part of the European Command and Libya is not in their Area of Operations. That doesn't mean they couldn't be used; but they don't train or prep for area's not typically in their AO. As said above, most of our forces in Europe, particularily Army are support and service personnel. Total combat units in Germany are about 20% of what was their in 89 at the end of the cold war. There are 2 Mechanzied Infantry Brigades, the 170th and 172nd. At least one of these is scheduled to be reposted to the US this year, although that is under some reconsideration.. I think the other might currently be in Iraq, but I am not sure. Also the 2nd Cavalry Regiment (stryker equipped). Also the 173rd Airborne Brigade is home stationed in Italy....they could be used for security at an airport or port for the evacuations. But even if you got all 4 of these units, it would take about 2 weeks before they could all be assembled and you aren't invading anyone with what amounts to barely one division.....sizable and powerful force that it is.....

I think at most you might see US Airborne troops from the 82nd in the US and the 173rd in Europe along with other troops from NATO/EU could be sent in to hold airports and shipping ports if the evacuation gets dicey (and possibly even oil facilities)...but even that is pretty unlikely. Just have to watch and see.

reply to post by schuyler


Where in any of my posts on this did I mention anything about invading Libya? I was responding to the previous poster who was listing our military capabilities in the Med region.

Wow, I point out the 6th Fleet is headquartered in Naples, Itlay and all of a sudden I want to invade Libya?!?

I haven't even supported the idea of a no-fly zone in this thread.

I know all about our German military bases, I was stationed at one for 5 years while in the USAF.

Originally posted by Christian Voice
reply to post by schuyler

 

Dude, settle down. Your posts seem very harsh and knee jerk. Just back off a bit and relax. It is totally possible to conduct an invasion of Libya right now or in the near future. This could have been planned beforehand or it could not happen at all, but neither you or I or the OP could ever know for sure until it happens or not.

And UFOs COULD land at Tripoli today, too. I have the hard information and you have opinions. If my information is wrong, refute it with facts and figures. I try to put hard information into my posts and I take a long time doing it. If you can't handle that, skip it. The thing about ATS is, people go off on these tangents predicting impossible things without ANY supporting information at all. They have no knowledge and little understanding of what logistics come to bear in any significant military operation. If peolle start talking about phantom aircraft carriers that don't exist, this discussion is useless. Epic fail.

Here we had someone claiming the "6th Fleet" had a lot of ships. Well, no they don't. That's either an outright lie or, more likely, an assumption. They have no carriers. They have no Marines on amphibious craft. I know someone found a website that says they do, but they don't. People apparently did not know that. I happen to know. Don't you think it is important to know that before suggesting an invasion? Is that not important information to factor in to all this speculation? Don't you think an understanding of the limited range of our aircraft bears on this idea that we can just throw everything parked in Europe at Libya at a moment's notice? Europe is not the size of Jersey. Maybe, just maybe, it's time to get out a map and take a look at what's involved and maybe do a little math.

Here we have an OP that is on the ground pretty close to the action. I think that is exciting, myself, and I have thought this was a pretty interesting discussion. But inevitably we have people coming on here saying, "We're gonna invade! We're going to war again!" in a sensationalistic fashion. So who is calming down whom, DUDE? Would you rather this thread degenerate into abject unverified speculation on what COULD happen? Or would you rather discuss this issue in light of the facts and the realistic probablity of what is likely to happen using all the data that you can bring to bear on the issue?

If your post is an example of what you bring to the table, which is an ad hominem attack on me, personally, you ain't got nothing.

All news reports hint at US going into war, US helping Opposition army is acceptable as it is a military alliance and not a foreign instigator.

Why can't people just stop fighting and suddenly decide to study physics and chemistry and come up with alternative energy ideas?

reply to post by schuyler


I've also heard that its 1.5 million on the news and they are said to be heading towards Europe...........no doubt the UK.

Originally posted by Helmkat
reply to post by schuyler

 

Just a little info.

I was in the USN in 1986 and in the America battle group, we were in the Med. for six months. I was involved in the "line of death" engagement and B-52's flew out of England to drop their bombs in addition to the the America airplanes. I know I've dated myself here but regardless if America wanted to they could have a carrier on station in no time at all and or fly planes out of Eurpoe to if they wanted to.

Great. Exciting times. Thank you for your service.

What is "no time at all"? You know how fast carriers can move, right? Well, we have two in the Arabian Gulf. They could theoretically turn one of those around, like the Enterprise which just went through the Suez, and backtrack over to Libya. That's certainly possible. It would take a week or so. Is that 'no time at all'? Of course, you have to weigh that with the Arabian Gulf mission itself. There has been one carrier in the Gulf for 20 years, but DOD seems to feel two are necessary these days to kind of tweak Iran.

Then we have several carriers at Norfolk. Two of them, the Eisenhower and the Roosevelt, are non-deployable, in the shipyard undergoing incremental maintenance. The Eisenhower is scheduled to get out of maintenace in April, but that doesn't mean it will be immediately deployable. The Roosevelt is undergoing refueling and won't be remotely ready for deployment until 2012.

Hmm. So that leaves two carriers now at Norfolk, the Truman and the GHW Bush. The Bush just completed a Composite Unit Training exercise, which is typically done just before deployment, so it is effectively ready to go. If they decided to send the Bush to Libya, it would take about two weeks. Is that "no time at all"?

Not to leave the west coast carriers out of the picture. The Lincoln is coming home from the Arabian Gulf at the end of a deployment. It's also running low on fuel and will soon go into the shipyard. It's unlikely they'll turn that ship around. The George Washington is forward deployed in Japan unlikely to be diverted anywhere far away from North Korea and China. The Reagan is undergoing training exercises in preparation for a coming deployment.The Stennis is on a port visit to San Diego and is home ported in Bremerton. I guess that has some potential for a surge deployment. And the Nimitz is non-deployable in the shipyard. If any West Coast carrier were deployed, it would take about a month to go on station. Does that constiute "no time at all"?

We only have 11 carriers. Four of them are non deployable, if you count the Lincoln. Theer are five on the East Coast, one of which is already deployed and two non-deployable. That leaves only two carriers that are candidates for deployment at all.

So, if you move a 5th Fleet carrier up the Suez, you're a week out. If you surge an east Coast carrier, assuming they can leave immediately (unlikely) you're two weeks out, and if you deploy a west coast carrier, you're at least a month out. We can go over the Amphibious Ready Groups, too, if you want, but it's pretty much the same situation. The Iwo Jima and the Bataan are the only two (out of ten) that have a remote chance of deploying immediately. I'm just thinking here that none of these possibilities constitutes "no time at all."

Of course, that all begs the question of intentions. I've already said we could establish a no-fly zone, but if you're talking boots on the ground in any significant way other than some special forces sorties, it's not going to happen.

A little of topic but i just saw on al-jazerra that quoted Gaddafi as saying that all the carnage in libya is Bin Ladens fault because Bin Laden brainwashed Libian civilians. That's just messed up.

reply to post by Novatrino


Do you really think all this is being encouraged for no reason,this is costing all countries alot of money when world economy is at its worst.Best time in the world to splinter,with all the evacuations.Iranian ships of coast of Israel.kinda odd,I am not blind I am awake and aware .Don`t be fooled,a enemy attacks when you are weak, confused and stretched..

Originally posted by Novatrino
A little of topic but i just saw on al-jazerra that quoted Gaddafi as saying that all the carnage in libya is Bin Ladens fault because Bin Laden brainwashed Libian civilians. That's just messed up.

Gadhafi said that after reading ATS.

reply to post by gringoboy

All I did was post something said on al-jazzera and said it was messed up. Why the hell are you questioning my character?

Well Ive been following this thread and this situation in the ME since the start of the revolt in Egypt...I have a friend who is in a select branch of the US special forces, wont mention which, wont give any info on him out of respect for his privacy...And even bringing up what Im about to bring up may seem wrong to some of you guys here...Our country no doubt has been keeping a CLOSE watch on these things...He informed me that we do have Spec Ops teams located all around these hot spots and that his team is about to head out possibly by Saturday heading to an area close to Libya...And by what he is telling me there are plans or discussions taking place to try to take Gaddafi out if he does attack more civilians...he said his team is being told that the threat of Chem weapons is real and that they will have all the tools to deal with it if it happens while they are there...I do trust what he tells me because he has told me things months prior to these things happening...If he tells me of anything else important, I will surely pass along said info if it is important or pertaining to any of the issues now or the future...

reply to post by Novatrino

I am not questioning your character ,i posted earlier about gadaffi,bin laden link and there is some truth to it,coincidences of iranian ships picking something up from syria.remember the israelies raiding the boat !.www.ynetnews.com...