Abortion, Genocide, what’s THE difference?!?!?!?!?.... do you condone murder???

Here is an answer to a large part of the problem. Teach your children about sex honestly. Don't preach the abstinance BS, how many of you teaching that, practiced it? My wife and I have 5 children, the youngest is 21, we have no forced marriages, no unwanted pregnancies, and no grand children. Why must children be ignorant?

Originally posted by 27jd
See, you have both made it clear, that human life is the only "life" you're concerned about. That shows the delusional superiority complex religious humans have. There is no rational discussion from that point.

Is the lion superior to the Gazelle as it tears into its ass a raw piece of flesh and blood?Doesn't the lion depend upon the gazelle? So which is superior? It is a delicate balance the circle of life.

The absurdity of your arguments is that you are saying 'we are not better then animals, they are just like us' but you are also implying at the same time that we as humans are supposed to be held to some notion of 'humanity' which imagines us as being superior to the animals.

You need to think for yourself, that is unless you are a shill. I know you do not think for yourself because your arguments don't even make any sense and you still have not dealt with any of the logical, rational, and reasonable premises and conclusions which I have drawn.

Originally posted by Freenrgy2

Originally posted by Darkmask
reply to post by geekyone

 

A baby doesn't NEED to be breast fed, an embryo needs to live off of a woman's body. Sorry your statement fails

Ah, but your logic would have failed you a hundred years ago. Medical science and food research has allowed breast feeding to become a want rather than a need.

So, for all of those hundreds/thousands of years that women breastfed, then I would say your statement fails. Of course, abortions were nearly unheard of. Isn't modern science grand!

edit on 24-2-2011 by Freenrgy2 because: (no reason given)

Babies still feed on the breast milk probably even right this moment. Actually this moment is a very critical bonding experience between mother and child releasing oxytocin in both, which will help form this babies emotional and personality development.

reply to post by SystemResistor

Forty-two percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes below 100% of the federal poverty level ($10,830 for a single woman with no children). Twenty-seven percent of women obtaining abortions have incomes between 100-199% of the federal poverty level.

While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Eighteen percent of U.S. women obtaining abortions are teenagers; those aged 15-17 obtain 6% of all abortions, teens aged 18-19 obtain 11%, and teens under age 15 obtain 0.4%.

Women in their twenties account for more than half of all abortions; women aged 20–24 obtain 33% of all abortions, and women aged 25-29 obtain 24%. www.guttmacher.org...

It is certainly no secret that this sort of self-policing never works in environments where large amounts of money are involved. In this case, the result is that the corpses of children killed by elective abortion are now marketed like old car parts salvaged from the local junkyard. Rhetoric like "site fees," "donations," and "retrieval reimbursement costs" are simply code words designed to conceal that fact. www.lifedynamics.com...

Who's having abortions (marital status)?
64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married womenwww.mswm.org..

Deaths of pregnant women, he explains, will be blamed on unsafe abortion and the lack of reproductive rights. So abortion activists are trying to wed that with maternal death numbers, which, according to Meaney, "doesn't work scientifically speaking, but it's very useful for propaganda purposes." He explains that the countries involved are often pro-life, but they face strong economic pressures to bow to abortion forces. "The major donors for health projects tend to also be very much on the pro-abortion side, and so there's something of an exchange that goes on," the HLI spokesman reports. www.onenewsnow.com...

Maternal Death Rate Lowest in Abortion Free Ireland
by David Schmidt on February 9th, 2010
Where is the maternal death rate lowest? Ireland, where human abortion is a crime against humanity. liveaction.org...

Women considering elective surgery, such as abortion, consider all information about physical or psychological risks to be very relevant to their decisions. Fully 95 percent of patients wished to be informed of all risks statistically associated with a procedure, even if the causal connection between the procedure and risk has not been fully proven. (This finding is especially relevant to abortion providers who assert that, without proof that abortion directly causes problems such as depression or breast cancer, women would prefer not to be given such "worrisome" and "unnecessary" information.)(19) Journal of Medical Ethics, 2006

A number of studies have been done recently that document abortion's harm to women. This is a collection of them. www.clinicquotes.com...

Communist society
Lenin(Bolshevik) tried to make Russian society communist:
Banned religion, destroyed churches and killed priests. A Labour Law gave workers an 8-hour day, unemployment pay and pensions. There was a huge campaign to teach everyone to read. Education: Science was encouraged, and useless subjects like Latin and History were banned. Free love, divorce and abortion were allowed. = different morality and style of life. www.johndclare.net...

For many women, the most common method of birth control remains a Soviet-era holdover: abortion.
"Young women who think that having an abortion is an easy thing are wrong," Latypova tells RFE/RL's Tatar-Bashkir Service. "An abortion is not only an operation. It's a deep psychological trauma for a woman. This is an operation that causes a woman physical and moral pain. I don't think it's the right decision."
Russia was the first country in the world to legalize abortion, in 1920. www.rferl.org...

September 24, 2005
Mother Russia now sees more abortions than babies bornBy her 50th birthday, Russia’s population could have halved, based on current trends.. By Russian standards, she is lucky to have made it even this far: last year, there were 1.6 million registered abortions in Russia and 1.5 million births..“The situation is critical,” said Vladimir Kulakov, deputy head of the Russian Academy of Medical Sciences and an adviser to President Putin on the demographic crisis. “The most important thing for every nation is to have confidence in its future.”..Russia’s population has been in decline since 1992 ..Mr Putin raised the issue in April, calling it a “national crisis”, but the Government has yet to respond. Mr Putin is now under pressure to dip into the Stabilisation Fund, designed to save excess oil revenues, to arrest the population decline. www.timesonline.co.uk...

I truly hate these threads.

You simply can't have a debate. This is an extremely polarizing issue and every little statement is either taken or intended to be a personal attack. Religion is almost immediately brought up and you have attacks based on those beliefs. Then, the atheist/agnostic crowd start preaching about those religious nuts pushing their beliefs down their throats. Arrg.

For those that believe in life at conception, YOU WILL NEVER EVER CONVINCE SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THAT TO ACCEPT YOUR POSITION. PERIOD. You might as well talk to a brick wall as you'd probably get further.

Likewise, pro-choicers will NEVER CONVINCE A PRO-LIFER (in most cases) THAT ABORTION IS O.K. AND THAT A WOMAN HAS A RIGHT TO DO WHATEVER SHE WANTS TO HER BODY (which really means to have an abortion).

I'm sick of seeing you folks get into these heated back and forth and within a page, the personal attacks start flying. Agree to disagree. If you haven't come to some level of respect for each others views after 40+ pages, then you're probably not going to gain any ground.

I believe in life at conception. And, I believe that medical science could provide a way to limit reproduction medically until such time as people can prove their willingness and ability to have and raise a child. But that position ALWAYS brings up Hitler and eugenics. My word.

I DO NOT believe that people have the inherent RIGHT to reproduce. At least not in today's society. We're just not that mature. We all know too well that the MAJORITY of abortions are performed because the woman/child found out she is having a child that she doesn't want, for whatever reason. I try to rationalize it by saying that what would life be like if the woman kept the child but still really didn't want it and didn't want the child to be adopted. Yeah, sometimes the woman has a change of heart, but I wonder how many times the child is raised in an unloving, uncaring environment or is seen as a mistake. I think the damage in those cases is far worse than the death of the unborn, as abhorrent as that may seem.

Each side has points that we've heard thousands of times before. I have yet to hear some breakthrough argument that changes my mind. Simply put, you can't.

If you want to believe that its fine to abort, then go right ahead and think that way. I won't stop you. But, I should have the right to not have my taxes go to it if I don't believe in it. I would gladly divert those tax dollars to agencies specializing in foster care and adoption. And, I don't believe the pro-life crowd should try to force their beliefs down your throat.

Originally posted by mrphilosophias
You need to think for yourself, that is unless you are a shill.

I say the same thing to you. And what am I a shill for? My own viewpoint?

I know you do not think for yourself because your arguments don't even make any sense and you still have not dealt with any of the logical, rational, and reasonable premises and conclusions which I have drawn.

I say the same thing about you, because you've been told what to think probably your entire life. If you feel human life is superior, fine. Good for you, don't have an abortion. Your god will smile upon you. I wonder if I can find you arguing so passionately against war, or assault weapons used to kill other human beings? I own lots of guns, by the way. So, I probably don't fit the mold you would try and put me in, but you seem to fit yours well.

And when did I ever say we had to be held to some high standard of "humanity"?

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
Here is an answer to a large part of the problem. Teach your children about sex honestly. Don't preach the abstinance BS, how many of you teaching that, practiced it? My wife and I have 5 children, the youngest is 21, we have no forced marriages, no unwanted pregnancies, and no grand children. Why must children be ignorant?

Teach them what about sex honestly? That sex is primarily for reproduction, secondly for bonding and intimacy between mates which will help foster a relationship that will be beneficial for the growth and development of the life that they are creating? That the world has distorted what is natural and a gift from God, and good? That we are living unnatural lives in a culture of irresponsibility, hedonism, and pagan practices and beliefs? What do you tell them? I know what my parents taught me. So grateful, even though I have made more than my fair share of mistakes and stubborn errors and follies.

the truth is the truth whether you like it or not, and one day everything will be laid bare in the full light of God's truth; may He have mercy on us all.

Well, bedtime. It's been real, and it's been fun. But it hasn't been real fun.

I'll let you religious extremists yell at your screen some more. Abortion is legal. It's an unfortunate thing, and it's terrible when any woman has to make that choice, but it's theirs to make. I don't see that changing anytime soon, since nobody is interested in the Taliban running things anymore. If you feel your god doesnt want you to get an abortion, dont get one.

Originally posted by 27jd
Well, bedtime. It's been real, and it's been fun. But it hasn't been real fun.

I'll let you religious extremists yell at your screen some more. Abortion is legal. It's an unfortunate thing, and it's terrible when any woman has to make that choice, but it's theirs to make. I don't see that changing anytime soon, since nobody is interested in the Taliban running things anymore. If you feel your god doesnt want you to get an abortion, dont get one.

are you into the occult by any chance?

reply to post by mrphilosophias



Tell them that it feels good and people want to do it. Also teach them what the consequences are, STD's, preganancy, etc. Teach them how to protect themselves. WTF you religious folks, there is an entire book of the bible devoted to this, but most of you wouldn't know that, because you haven't read the book. This is not a religious argument, how many of you so called good Christian's out there were virgins when you got married? If you weren't get off of your forking high horse.

reply to post by 27jd


Preach on Brother

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
reply to post by mrphilosophias

 

Tell them that it feels good and people want to do it. Also teach them what the consequences are, STD's, preganancy, etc. Teach them how to protect themselves. WTF you religious folks, there is an entire book of the bible devoted to this, but most of you wouldn't know that, because you haven't read the book. This is not a religious argument, how many of you so called good Christian's out there were virgins when you got married? If you weren't get off of your forking high horse.

Big part of the reason is that we are living in a false paradigm, and that we have these sinful natures which make lust and polygamy and promiscuity seem attractive when it is in reality quite ugly. Sex isn't a bad thing, it's a gift from God. With great power comes great responsibility. There is no power available to us greater than the ability to create human life. We can destroy a lot of things, but we could never create human life without the God given gift of sexuality. It is for procreation which is a biological imperative no?

reply to post by mrphilosophias



And the day that event happens, I will happily go to hell, figuring it is better than hanging out with the hypocrits, although by your beliefs, they will be there with me, so for the 144,000, I hope they find their friends.

reply to post by mrphilosophias


Animals have sex for pleasure, aren't we nothing but animals. You obvious religious beliefs hold no place in my life, as my lack of religious beliefs should hold no place in yours. Please argue this point on a secular level.

reply to post by 27jd

Yeah, quite sure. You haven't stated that you're not religious. If you're not, just say so and I'll eat my crow. And I'm sure we won't come to an agreement on what makes somebody an extremist, so no point in trying to argue your level of religious devotion.

You are so desperately trying to use this strawman...because it is all you have got.

You have been presented with a logical scientific argument as to why abortion is wrong...and you have no idea how to deal with it. So you are trying very very hard to try to pain me as a religious extremist.

I would most likely be described as an agnostic theist...I think organized religion is crap...but I do believe in God. I don't use religion for the basis of any of my arguments and not for much of my morality (I eat pork and shellfish and wear clothes with mixed fibers...so according to the bible...I'm a bit of a sinner :@@

Now...are you going to continue with your illogical rant about me being a religious extremist??? Or are you going to attempt to logically refute my position???

I don't need to prove anything. Abortion is legal. Cows are self aware, when I encounter them on the road, they move out of the way, because they don't want to get hit. Doesn't stop us from eating them, I bet you eat the hell out of some cow, huh?

Yes...I eat cow...do you???

Remember the whole "self aware" thing is YOUR argument...I could give a damn if a cow is self aware...I'm eating it because I am a omnivore.

I am dealing with HUMAN LIFE...because it is my species and I believe in protecting your own species.

Are you done trying to project onto me...are you done trying to interject ideas into my argument?

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
reply to post by mrphilosophias

 

And the day that event happens, I will happily go to hell, figuring it is better than hanging out with the hypocrits, although by your beliefs, they will be there with me, so for the 144,000, I hope they find their friends.

I'm not judging anybody but merely pointing out the folly of our ways. And yes I am guilty of hypocrisy, but hypocrisy is vices tribute to virtue. I look forward to the day when I will be all that I should be by the grace, mercy, love, wisdom, and power of God through Christ Jesus and the Holy Spirit. What of the 144,000?

Originally posted by mrphilosophias

Originally posted by 27jd
Well, bedtime. It's been real, and it's been fun. But it hasn't been real fun.

I'll let you religious extremists yell at your screen some more. Abortion is legal. It's an unfortunate thing, and it's terrible when any woman has to make that choice, but it's theirs to make. I don't see that changing anytime soon, since nobody is interested in the Taliban running things anymore. If you feel your god doesnt want you to get an abortion, dont get one.

are you into the occult by any chance?

Cult or not, I think he's the most "religious" one out of us. I've never heard anybody talk about God as much as this guy in the thread. For some reason, almost all of the religious talk has came from the pro-choice folks interjecting it to just fabricate and dictate to the rest of the people what their religious affiliations are. Awesome.

You can't discuss abortion unless you:

• Take God out of the equation.
  
• Take woman libereration issues out of it.
  
• Take away made up words; call a fetus a human and call aborting an act of killing.
  

Originally posted by BubbaJoe
reply to post by mrphilosophias

 

Animals have sex for pleasure, aren't we nothing but animals. You obvious religious beliefs hold no place in my life, as my lack of religious beliefs should hold no place in yours. Please argue this point on a secular level.

I already have and am still waiting for someone to address my logical arguments. Here I'll help you:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

In response to your reply the animals act on instincts and since sex is the most biological urge, before eating for some animals, it is absurd to think they do it for pleasure, the pleasure is an evolutionary development to reinforce the behavior to promote procreation.

Originally posted by 27jd
See, you have both made it clear, that human life is the only "life" you're concerned about. That shows the delusional superiority complex religious humans have. There is no rational discussion from that point.

I make no illusions that I am talking about HUMAN LIFE and am only concerned about protecting our own species. It's purely a survival and evolutionist standpoint...hardly your average "religious extremeist" viewpoint.

You are the one trying to inject this idea into the discussion...because you have nothing else to say...you can't refute my argument...so you try to interject religion to use as your strawman.

You are a sad little man...with only one argument in your pocket...so when someone isn't spouting off religious views...you try to inject them into the discussion. Sad.


And you are correct...there is no rational discussion...because you have completely abandoned logic.