Think teachers are the problem,think again

As usual the morons and antagonist abound on many topics.
Is it really beyond most of you people that teachers answer to their local school board.
It is the school board that determines what subjects are taught and how they are taught and not taught.
It is the school board that determines class size.It is the school board that determines the pace of teaching and how grading is done.It is the school board who screens new teachers and hads out raises.
School board members are elect or appointed by politicians.

When a company or a system fails why is the problem always at the bottom of the ladder.
If a boss hires an employee who can't do the job, you either get the employee the proper training , fire them or move them to another job.
Does anyone question why did the boss hire this person in the first place? (nope)
Does anyone question why that person is still employed ? (nope)
And don"t blame the unions.I have sat in many grievances as a union board member and if a company wants to fire someone they will.

Don't stop at just the school board on your way to looking upward for the causes. The ladder goes pretty high up, and the curriculum is chosen carefully in accordance to corporate interests. Corporate interests influence political actions, and that all trickles down to us eventually in the form of the bills to pay for it all.

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


Great points.

The saying that "To err is human. But to err and blame it on someone else shows management potential."still holds true. As does "# runs downhill."

When folks are angry, it is usually taken out on lower level people because they are the only ones accessible at thr time.

Originally posted by Kangaruex4Ewe
reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE

 

Great points.

The saying that "To err is human. But to err and blame it on someone else shows management potential."still holds true. As does "# runs downhill."

When folks are angry, it is usually taken out on lower level people because they are the only ones accessible at thr time.

Perhaps you don't have any firsthand experience with today's education system. I had MANY teachers throughout my k-12 education that should have been shown the door a LONG time ago. I did excellent in school, but that is only because my parents valued education. If the teachers had been a bit more engaging, they could definitely have reached the majority of students. The problem was that seniority, not performance, determined compensation, and the older teachers knew that essentially nothing could be required of them.

Don't forget that over the past decade teachers had their hands further tied to meet the requirements of the federal "hold every child back" policy. Sure, it went by the moniker "no child left behind", but the only way to accomplish such a goal was to strictly cater to the lowest common denominator in a classroom; so all of the other students were effectively "held back" while teachers' hands were tied catering to the class clowns.

I posted some of this here previously, but it applies just as much now as it did when I posted it before.

My daughter is in public school and I got a particularly disturbing note home from her (then) kindergarten teacher. It was hand written and photocopied in the teacher's handwriting (so I knew it was written specifically by the teacher and not a student). This is EXACTLY what the note said (yes, I saved it):
"Hi we're doing a Fundraiser for the victims of hurricane Katrina. If ever one here gave at least $2.00 and we can raise over $400.00.
And if we raise more then $300.00 we get a pj Party!"

This is not exaggerated at all. I understand that we are all human and make mistakes, but this is just one example of many. I had a handful of notes home the first week of school that year that caused my husband to literally confiscate my red pens. The teacher's weekly newsletter wasn't much better, either. Though I did eventually get my red pens back, it was under a promise that I would not ever correct a teacher's note and send it back. The notes have varied in quality over the years since this happened, some from wonderful teachers with the odd typo which everyone makes from time to time, to newsletters that reminded me much of that early kindergarten teacher's note and (due to a move) from different schools, as well. Notably from her teacher last year. She was retiring at the end of the year and didn't even pretend that she was doing anything other than just marking time.

At a different public school, my nephew's kindergarten teacher called my sister on an almost weekly basis to ask the definition of various words that my nephew was using. One word that I remember off hand was "vociferous". There were quite a few others that I just can't remember right now. But, come on! Really? When did it become a parent's responsibility to educate the teacher because the student was too smart? If my kindergarten nephew is too smart for his teacher, I have SERIOUS misgivings about the state of the public education system!

I generally don't go all spelling/grammar police because I get caught up and typing fast or not paying attention and make plenty of my own mistakes, but these examples were the rule, not the exception and I really do have a problem with that. These are the same people who can't be tested to find out if they should even qualify to be teachers. Thank the unions for that. A large number would immediately be disqualified if they could be tested. Coming from a family that has produced quite a few educators myself, this isn't a secret or anything, but a constant complaint from the teachers who are left to clean up the messes of the teachers who should never have been allowed to teach in the first place.

These poor quality teachers are the people to whom I have a problem with paying salaries with gold plated benefits packages. A good teacher, however, is worth their weight in gold and I think that they earn every penny that they get. Unfortunately, it seems that more and more, the bad far outnumber the good.

Take care,
Cindi

reply to post by Infrasilent


The engagement levels of the teachers are not what the op was talking about.

OP stated...

Is it really beyond most of you people that teachers answer to their local school board.
It is the school board that determines what subjects are taught and how they are taught and not taught.
It is the school board that determines class size.It is the school board that determines the pace of teaching and how grading is done.It is the school board who screens new teachers and hads out raises.
School board members are elect or appointed by politicians.

That is what my comment referred to.

And I have plenty of experience. My daughter is currently in the 7th grade in public school. I am an active parent. If I need to go to school for an issue, I go. I make sure my child does what she is supposed to do, and I expect the teachers to do the same. There are some less than stellar teachers for sure. But the op did not address that.

reply to post by Glencairn


I understand your frustration regarding your daughters kindergarten teacher, but I think the more important question would be... how was he/she when it came to interacting with the kids?

If this were an English Comp. teacher I'd be outraged; however, kindergarten is about learning how to interact with a peer group, tying your shoes, washing your hands at appropriate times, and other such "basic" and interpersonal skills. Likewise, I wouldn't necessarily expect a geometry teacher to display perfect punctuation/grammar in "notes home" either. As long as a teacher excels in their field of expertise, and in relaying that field in a manner that students can understand it, then they're performing the duties they were hired to do.

Another great point driving towards getting rid of the Dept of Education.

As for what to do when the employee fails? Well, if a supervisor hires enough idiots, then they are fired as well.
Comparing teachers to private jobs is apples to oranges.
One is funded by customers, the other is by tax payers.
One is private, one is Govt.
One is controlled by a single person or board, the other is Govt.

reply to post by redmage


I don't know how this teacher was with the other students, but we had problems with her from the very first day we met her. We went in for a meeting a few days before school started. The school was having little "get to know the teacher" conferences before classes started. We introduced ourselves and explained that my daughter's name is Elizabeth Quin and we call her Quin. The teacher refused to do this and insisted that she be called Elizabeth. However, she tends to only be called by her first name when she is in trouble. So, this teacher refused to call her Quin, even after I had made quite a few requests that she do so and explained why. I finally got the teacher to promise to honor my wishes on the matter.

For the first two weeks, every day when I went to pick my daughter up from school she was crying. Every day I asked what was wrong and she told me that the teacher was mad at her and didn't like her. When I asked why she thought this the answer was because the teacher called her Elizabeth every time she talked to my daughter. So, the teacher had lied to me. For those same two weeks, when I tried to talk to the teacher, she suddenly had a meeting that she forgot about or had to leave right away. So, I handled it by taking it to the principal and the principal was not happy. She couldn't understand why the teacher would do this, but said that she would talk to the teacher. When I talked to the principal the next day, she said that the teacher didn't have a rational excuse for her behavior and claimed (again) that she would call my daughter by the name I told her to use. Frankly, I didn't think that my request was all that unreasonable. Apparently it was because the teacher would go a day or two and then revert back to calling my daughter Elizabeth instead of Quin.

This continued on for the rest of the year. If it hadn't upset my daughter so much, I would have just let it go and not cared, but my daughter had just turned 5 and it did bother her very much that she believed that her teacher didn't like her and was angry at her. No amount of explaining that this wasn't the case would convince her because she knew that she was only Elizabeth when she was in trouble. And to be frank, I wasn't going to change my kid's name and how we addressed her just to suit some teacher who was acting belligerently.

It was just one more thing in a long line of others with this teacher. The problem with the name, the random notes and newsletters to the parents that were always horribly misspelled and riddled with bad grammar, the lying to me when dealing with the name issue. There was more than only one problem. I don't believe that this woman was in any way qualified to be a teacher based on my experiences with her. If it had been one or two little things, I would have let them slide, but it wasn't.

Take care,
Cindi

reply to post by OLD HIPPY DUDE


A bigger problem is inadequate funding caused by a system that relies on property taxes not to mention the Capitalist system looks down on education unless it helps corporate profits.

reply to post by zacherystaylor


Oh please stop with the funding BS. Every year more and more money goes to the public schools. Where is the improvement? How is it possible schools with less money graduate more students with higher test scores than schools that get more money? Funding has zero to do with it.

Two major factors that I can see. 1) The teachers. 2) the parents.

I watched a John Stossel 20/20 episode last night that a mod posted in one if the threads.

The solution is quite simple.

The cost to educate a single student for a single year is around $12-15000.

Tie this money to the student, not the school. If a parents expectations are not met, the parent is free to move their child (who the money is tied to), to a different school.

This forces schools to either educate the child, or lose money, even going out of business.

Competition brings better products. This is a verifiable fact. Right now, the school districts have a monopoly on the kids.


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

My kids go to a private school that out-performs the local public schools, and the cost per student is about a third of what the school district "needs" per child. That's because the private school must be comparatively cheap---the parents have already had to pay into the public system (property taxes) AND THEN pay for private school on top of it.

The teachers make probably 5 to 10 thousand less in annual salary than they would in public school. Why would they put up with that? Well, every child has motivated parents (who paid for the class), and the class sizes are around 12 students.

I am a product of public schools from k-12, and later a public university. The older I get the better I am able to reflect on my education. It was always about doing well to get into college. After college you get a better job for all those years of good grades. My parents were very adamant about reinforcing my education. It is from them that my love of knowledge grew. The schools are designed to create a class of people who continue existing economic and political systems. It is up to parents to counter the indoctrination of schools, and play an active role in the education of their children.

The huge amount of funding that goes into education seems crazy considering the results. If you take a closer look the money is being well spent. That is if you are a social engineer guiding the society toward a desired end. Education is a tool of institutionalized power to create a societal environment that is beneficial to those institutions. Education is not an altruistic attempt to better society like we are taught. I wish it were so, but sadly it is not.

I agree with the OP that you cannot place all the blame on teachers. They are merely cogs in the machine. Many are very good people who truly help children. It is an institutionalized structure with top down curriculum that is the problem. Parents are who should educate their children, and they can never expect others to do it for them.

reply to post by stephinrazin


I just want to point out this USA Today article About the PISA test, which compares student performances globally.

and this particular paragraph:

Schleicher noted that some of the top systems are centralized, while others are very decentralized. There was also much variation in class sizes, with some of the best performers finding success in putting quality teachers in larger classes. But in each case, teachers are subject to evaluations and have a high standing in society. Also, schools have a degree of autonomy in determining their curriculum — but are also held accountable.

The person quoted noted that autonomy for teachers plus accountability seemed to be the common denominator among winning school systems. Whether the system was centralized or decentralized mattered a lot less.

So, bureaucratic issues (perhaps like the role of school boards?) mattered less than whether teachers could write their own curricula----and were held accountable for the results.

I think a lot of pro-union folks simply cannot hear the criticism that a lot of Americans believe that unions get in the way of holding individual workers responsible; in this case, teachers.

I'm not even claiming here that the perception is true. Just pointing out that a lot of voters think individual accountability is a big part of the problem.