the god of the bible is an evil god

You are talking about a book that changes like the wind. It has been changed to fit agendas. this book is 2 thousand years old. Thing change from person to person.. Things where lost in translation. If you where making a cake and you miss read suger for salt...... blaaaa..... no good.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Quote: "Fundamentalists take them the wrong way, they strictly follow all the stuff in the OT that isn't even supposed to apply to us anymore. They were laws for an ancient people. I think the only sins we really have to be worried about are the big moral issues like murder, rape, etc. Eating shellfish, working on the sabbath, etc don't constitute getting stoned to death, ya know? It's foolish to be so fundamentalist about it."

Ah the sound of REASON - how refreshing!!!

Leveler thank you for dis-crediting Monothiesim - Jewish people NEVER talk about how thier "One God" is in Reality MORE THAN ONE GOD!!!

As for the Christian Guy-"Like" Zeus & Hercules - I would say EXACTLY LIKE Zeus & Hercules - it is just Mythologies & Stories People - we are supposed to Learn & Grow from them - not put our Brains into Boxes out of Fear of the Wrath of "God" or "Satan" or whatever!!!!!

Look. I belive what i want to belive ok? And my name's either AD or George so call me by that please. Not "the Christian guy." Satan is real, and Gos is real, and it's not just mythologies.

Originally posted by Simon_Boudreaux
First off if i pi$$ anyone of I'm sorry...There is no god,devil,heaven,or hell..religion was created to satisfy our own fears of mortality..we as humans cannot or should i say we don't want to believe that when we die there is nothing after that...we need to believe that we go on..Everyone should just realize that we are nothing but animals..more evovled than every other species but animals none the less. Think about how in the world did all these different races of people and animals end up on six different continents after the flood if the only people to survive was Noah and his family?We wont get into the amount of time it would take to have built the ark and to find two of every species of animal,not to mention that he(Noah)would have had to find only babies of these animals to fit them all on the ark.I also have tried to find historical proof that the plagues of Egypt happened.Funny but I don't seem to be able to find it.And as to the creation of God..we've all heard the big bang theory and I'm sure there are other theories out there...Come on people do you honestly believe that something happened that just created an all powerful all knowing entity?Someone was saying in another post about christians not pushing their views on others..sorry but yes they do(atleast in my experience) and if you don't see things their way you're a no good athiest..I have friends of nine years and a girlfriend whose pastor thinks they should not have anything to do with me because of my views??Feck him!!! I don't go to his church and tell everyone they shouldn't talk to him because of his views..I don't put anyone down for their beliefs I shouldn't be put down for mine..But as for God being evil. Would a loving god allow the things that go on in this world to happen?ie.the starving children in the world that haven't done a damn thing to anyone to deserve that..What of George Dubya saying God talks to him and tells him to strike out at Al Queda and Saddam?If God exist then yes I say he's evil and we are nothing more than entertainment for him

OH DAMN READ MY FECKING POST ON THE FIRST PAGE!!!

Originally posted by drbryankkruta
I WILL PREY FOR YOU MY CHILD,

FOR THIS DAY LET IT BE KNOW THAT A BLASPHEMER HAS APPEARED

THIS DAY HAS ALSO GIVEN BIRTH TO AN ACCUSER, LIKE THE ONE OF THE SAME BIBLE THE ACCUSER IS ANOTHER NAME FOR LUCIFER.

SAVE YOUR SELF, REPENT OF YOUR MISDEEDS PLEASE BECAUSE I DONT WISH TO WATCH SOMEONE DESTROY THEMSELF SUCH AS YOU HAVE STARTED DOING.

THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS AND OUR FATHERS, FATHERS GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON THAT IF YOU CALL ON HIM AND ASK FORGIVENESS YOU WILL NOT ONLY BE SAVED BUT THE DEVIL WONT BE ABLE TO DECEIVE YOU ANYMORE AND YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SEE THE TRUTH IN THE WORD FOR WHAT IT IS THE TRUTH AND THAT GOD IS NOT EVIL

GOD DIDNT MAKE HELL FOR MAN BUT FOR LUCIFER SO THAT HE MAY NO LONGER TEMP THE CHILDREN NOR HARM THEM

AS FOR THOSE OF US THAT ARE CHILDREN OF GOD WE DECIDE OF OUR OWN FREE WILL TO JOIN THE DEVIL IN HELL GOD DIDNT MAKE IT FOR US AND DOESNT WANT US THERE

Dude i agree with you but please stop suing capitals.

Originally posted by AD5673

That would be different reactions of God to humanity. In reality, and in the Bible there is one God.

The statement defies logic.
The Bible isn't reality. It is a book. In that book you can clearly see references to different gods. The fact that the authors later edit the interpretation to make those gods into one does not mean that they didn't exist as separate entities in the original.
The gods of the Bible evolve just as their religions evolved. We start out with El and ends up with Jesus's god - the fact that end god is edited into being the same as the original does not necessarily make it so.

Although you could argue that in reality the Biblical figures were worshipping the same god but in a different form, it still does not take into account that the gods mentioned all had different given personalities and different requirements of worship. And as God is based on faith there is no proof that they were all worshipping the correct god.
Your argument is rather like saying that all worshipped gods are the same god. Although every worshipper believes his own god to be the one God, there are many others who will disagree with him.

So to recap: the Bible contains at least four different gods (without even including the recognition that Yaweh gives to Ba'al's and other deities' existence). The fact that they were all edited to become one god does not necessarily mean that they are all the same. They certainly would not have been looked upon as being the same by their historical worshippers. Moses did not worship Abraham's El - he worshipped Yaweh. A completely different entity altogether, with a different personality and a different reqirement in the mode of worship.

So are you saying there are 4 gods not one!?!?

*sigh*

In the Bible, yes.
They don't even have the same names!!!

www.pantheon.org...

As you can see, El's symbol was the bull. This was the same effigy that was being worshipped by the Israelites before Moses went up the mountain and found Yaweh. Moses then had the people who worshipped the effigy executed and ordered them to follow the new god.
Yaweh and El may correspond as the link says, but they aren't one and the same. Otherwise why would Moses kill all those who worshipped El in the shape of a bull? The obvious reason for their execution was because Yaweh was the new god replacing the old - the link to El had to be wiped out. Yaweh took over where El left of. He evolved into him.

www.geocities.com...

northernway.org...

Here's something else for you to chew over:

"God has taken His place in the assembly of the gods (lit. 'sons of El'),
He declares His judgment among the gods: '
How long will you give crooked judgment,
and favor the wicked?
You ought to sustain the case of the weak and the orphan;
You ought to vindicate the destitute and down-trodden
You ought to rescue the weak and the poor,
To deliver them from the power of the wicked
You (Hebrew 'they') walk in darkness
While all earth's foundations are giving away.
I declare 'Gods you may be,
Sons of the Most high, all of you;
Yet you shall die as men,
You shall fall as one of the bright ones."
- Psalm 82:1-7




[edit on 17-7-2004 by Leveller]

I'm sorry Leveller, but there is absolutely no evidence to what you are stating concerning any connection between the Elohim and the calf-god created by Aaron at the request of the Israelites.

None whatsoever. The Israelites requested of Aaron to make them a god to go before them because they didn't have a clue if Moses was even still alive. There was no mention in their request, nor in Aaron's responses that the golden calf was in anyway reflective of the Elohim. Furthermore, if one were to live in speculation, it would be more logical to assume that the calf-god was something representative of Egyption religion, not anything to do with Abraham or any Israelite tradition. 400 years of capitivity would pretty much ensure it was probably of the Egyption nature.

These statements have no basis whatsoever.

I agree to a point. Although the bull figure is prominent in Egypt it was also prominent in the religions of the area where the early Hebrews gathered. At the very least, why should one assume that there was not a cross pollination of religious symbology?

There is no doubt whatsoever that the bull was an Egyptian symbol. But there is also no doubt that it was also the symbol of El.
So although the Apis bull was probably identified by many as being a subject of worship, El himself was also tied in with this effigy. El would have also been more acceptable to the Israelites as he was the god of Abraham - their forefather. El was known as The Bull, the Father of Men, the Kindly One, the Compassionate. Creator of all things, greatest of all the gods, father of the divine family, head of the divine assembly. This seems to be a closer resemblance to Yaweh than the Apis bull.

ancienthistory.about.com...


It's even possible that the Apis bull originated in an earlier religion of the Semites and not with the Egyptians. By worshipping the bull, Moses' people were worshipping what was actually theirs orginally, before Egyptian belief took over. Basically reclaiming what was there previously; something that was not Egyptian but even older. Ur's (Abraham's) civilisation certainly predates that of the Egyptians. It's possible that the Semites took the bull into Egypt with them when they were exiled or before, and Egypt adapted it. The Egyptians were certainly renowned for taking other faiths' gods and using them for themselves - Osiris is just such an example.

www.bibleorigins.net...


Again, it is a matter of evolution of religion. The Apis bull did not necessarily sit still and remain the same object of worship. Either it could have been adapted itself or it could have changed into something else. Religion itself proves the evolution of gods. There is no reason to believe that this is not the case here. One cannot state that the effigies worshipped by Moses' people were not connected in any way with El - he would most certainly have been known by the people of that time and would have had the connection with Abraham.

What kind of Christianity do you follow? Jesus said there was one God, and God said there was one God in the Bible, and in reality.

Originally posted by AD5673
Jesus said there was one God, and God said there was one God in the Bible, and in reality.

Yaweh did not say that there was only one god. In fact he states exactly the opposite with his constant references to them!!!
Even the Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Not only does he acknowledge the existence of other gods but he doesn't exactly condemn their worship either. It doesn't say "You will worship no other god other than me". It says "You will worship me first".

As for my own personal religious beliefs? I don't follow the Old Testament. I look upon it merely as a basis for the Christian faith and don't take it as either factual or particularly sacred to my faith in a literal way. In reality this doesn't differ from any other Christian outlook. After all - the laws of Leviticus aren't followed by Christians are they?

I have to say that I'm also not particularly fond of the Biblical Yaweh. I don't exactly put my faith in a god who sees nothing wrong in forcing his worshippers to follow him.


[edit on 17-7-2004 by Leveller]

Originally posted by Leveller
Yaweh did not say that there was only one god. In fact he states exactly the opposite with his constant references to them!!!
Even the Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Not only does he acknowledge the existence of other gods but he doesn't exactly condemn their worship either. It doesn't say "You will worship no other god other than me". It says "You will worship me first".

What we got here, is a failure to communicate.

Step one in understanding

Know all the meanings of a word you wish to stress.

From www.m-w.com

Main Entry: before
Function: preposition
1 a (1) : in front of (2) : in the presence of b : under the jurisdiction or consideration of c (1) : at the disposal of (2) : in store for
2 : preceding in time : earlier than
3 : in a higher or more important position than

See that "in the presence of" definition? Let's slip that into the translation.

Thou shalt have no other gods in the presence of me.

Now doesn't this have a completely different meaning than the one you interpretted?

But wait, there's more.

Step two in understanding

When trying to understand a translation go back to the words from which it was translated. For perhaps something was "lost" in the translation.

Exodus 20:3 (KJV with Strongs)

(Thou shalt have) no other gods (before) me.

The bolded words are from words in the previous translation.
The words in ()'s are added for clearer understanding.
"No" is representative to the "negative form" of the verse.

Hit the link, click on the words I bolded, and examine the definitions.

The language from which it is translated is a very visual language. It basically "paints a picture" of what is being said. The essence of what is being said is "(There are) no other gods (in my) presence"


Concerning multiple Gods worshipped in the old testament: I would ask you to read this poem about blind men and an elephant.

.

I don't misunderstand the word "before". I take it in context with everything else that I see in the Bible. It's always convenient to see what we want, isn't it? The plain truth is that there are other gods in the Bible whatever your point of view. The very fact that Yaweh needs to utter this Commandment is proof in itself - he's aware of other gods!!! He doesn't say "false" gods!!!

Ex.15:11 "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?"

Ex.18:11 "Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods."

Ex.22:20 "He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed."

Ex.22:28 "Thou shalt not revile the gods."

Ex.23:13 "Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth."

Ex.23:32 "Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods."

Num.33:4 "Upon their gods also theLORD executed judgments."

Ps.96:4 "For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods."

Ps.97:7 "Worship him, all ye gods."

Jer.10:11 "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens."

Zeph.2:11 "The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth."

There's another page of "other gods" here.

www.whatsaiththescripture.com...

The evidence speaks for itself. Time and time again, the early Hebrews rush off and worship different gods. They spend more time in the Old Testament of the Bible doing this than worshipping Yaweh!!!! Even after Moses gives them the Commandments, they still revert to worshipping other deities!!!!
It's quite a condemning pointer that this is the first Commandment that is given and then the first to be immediately broken and enforced with fear. The rain hadn't even dried off the tablets before the Hebrews were stating what a waste of time Yaweh was. Even after his appearance to the masses, they still didn't follow him!!! It was only through killing dissenters and physically forcing the people to follow him that Moses managed to give his god any sort of status. Yaweh has to whine on and on and on in the Bible that he is head honcho - if he were really that convincing, I doubt that he would need to be so persistent. The fact that he has to keep reinforcing his position seems damning enough to me. The fact that he mentions and condemns other gods so many times, doubly so.

Mute Halo - you are very wise my friend. AD5673 - OK lets break it down like this - try to wrap your mind around this: Lets say that ULTIMATELY in the ENTIRE UNIVERSE - which is Multidimensional & Infinite - there is One Supreme God & that we can never know ITS true Name. But here is the thing just take a look around - look at the Diversity of Life - look at all of the different types of People & Animals in existence in the World. They all Perceive Reality differently. So OK there is ONE Universal God - but they ALL PERCIEVE it Differently - they All call IT different names & Worship IT in different ways. IT - the One Supreme God - MANIFESTS ITSELF to us in a Multitude of different ways. Do you get it now? Obviously BOTH Good & Evil Exist - Just as Light & Darkness Exist. But these are Just Two Sides of the Supreme God - In Reality "GOD" is neither Good nor Evil - this is only our Worldly Perception!!!

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by The Last Patriot

The idea that the Israelites worshipped many different gods because they had different names for Him is false. It was just different names, not different gods.

Uhhh. Not true. Abraham worshipped Elohim - he was the Canaanite high god.
Yaweh was an entirely different god altogether - probably a minor deity until elevated by Moses. The Egyptians did the same thing with Osiris.

Exodus 3:6 " Moreover He said 'I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

God is telling Moses right there that the God Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob worshipped and the God that is appearing before him is the same God.

Matthew 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias as talking with him.
Matthew 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Matthew 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

If the God of Moses,(which as Exodus 3:6 clearly states, is the God of Abraham) and the God of Jesus( which is a bit of a misnomer, Jesus is God) are different beings altogether, why would Moses be present at the transfiguration of Christ, which was presided over by Jesus' God?
There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that the Bible was edited to make it seem that many different Gods were really one God.

Leveller, the other gods that God mentions are fallen angels cast to Earth. Their crime was wanting humans to worship them, not God. When they were cast out of Heaven, they set to convincing mortals that they were gods, and should be worshipped. This is why God said" Thou shalt have no other gods before me." If your going to worship something, Doesn't it seem prudent to worship the all-powerful creator, and not lying spirits pretending to be gods?

[edit on 17-7-2004 by The Last Patriot]

Originally posted by The Last Patriot
If your going to worship something, Doesn't it seem prudent to worship the all-powerful creator, and not lying spirits pretending to be gods?

No. It seems more prudent to use the freewill that you are given and not to be forced into worshipping a god who frightens man into following him as Yaweh does.

As for the god of Abraham, god of Isaac malarky? Do you really expect the Bible's authors to have Moses say anything different? Yet again I believe that we have evidence in the very fact that Moses' god has to tell him that he's his forefathers' god too. If there were no other gods, why would he have to state that he was the god of Abraham? Wouldn't it be taken as read?

As I've stated before - Abraham's god was El. The Bible calls him El. He was the Canaanite high god.
Moses' god was Yaweh - the tribal god of war who assumed El's mantle.

There's a song by Metallica called The More I See...
(Originally recorded by Discharge)
From where I stand I see
Pain suffering and misery
The more I see the more I see
The less the less I believe
From where I stand I see
Hate violence and war
The more I see the more I see
The less the less I believe

I dont know what the author was referring to when he wrote that song, but when I see all that bad stuff he refers to, the less the less I believe in god, actually I no longer believe in him, due to all my dedication and constant faith, prayer, preaching, devotion and money that I've given to him, but what has he given me???? Many people will argue that he's given me this beautiful earth, this beautiful country, my beautiful parents, he has given me my not so beautiful body, he's given me a job, HE HAS GIVEN ME MY SOUL, my gosh wow that's lot of gifts!!! and when I ask where is the actual proof that he's given me all that??? Again people will argue that everything is proof of that, all the creation is proof that god loves us, the sun, the moon, the stars, the trees, the animals, the bible, many other religious books say that god is the owner of everything we see including our souls, he's given us everything we have according to many people, if that's the case he hasn't given us an equal amount of gifts, I know friends that no longer have a dad or never had one or a mom, or both, I also know people that are mentallly impaired, physically impaired or both, I know people that were born in a living hell literally in countries that pay less than one hour a day, where wars and violence can end your life everyday, my question to those who think god loves us and he died for us to be saved and be happy, what the hell is he doing??? why is he treating the people in suffering, down in the pits, like this?? why did they do to deserve that?? Innocent people dying, suffering, crying, asking for help and no one's around even god himself, what about them?? why doesn't god helped them to fix their problems and get'em up and running again why?? why?? I tell you why because "THERE REALLY IS NO GOD" "IT"S ALL THEM" there is a far more advanced race than us in this galaxy, a race that can see the present the future and past as if they were 3 different windows with 3 different views, a race billions of years old, mankind has only a few thousand ,and we are still horribly undeveloped depending only on this earth to survive, we cannot go out into space like they can, we are simply part of someones kingdom, just like a zoo is part of a city, or like the family that just bought a box filled with sand and ants, the ants are property of the family, they just watch how the ants are doing developing their tunnels, we cannot escape from the zoo, the cage, the box whatever you wanna call it, we wouldn't survive, we hardly think, all we do is eat, sleep, work, and maybe have a laugh sometime during the day, we are almost fish in the water, so vulnerable, anything can hurt us, even the weather of our own home called earth. There isn't only one race out there far more advanced than us, there's gotta be at least 3 , this planet and solar system belongs to one of those races, and we are their property I don't think they are Evil, but i don't think that they care for our pain and suffering either, they just care for our development to be independent and to be able to defend ourselves, because the so called satan is just another race that is more advanced than us, Satan's race wants to own us, and god's race doesn't want that I don't know if they would help us out more than God's race, wars and violence have sttoped us from achieveing better results throughout history, but God (they) didn't care too much about it as long as a male and a female were left alive we could restart all over. But the atomic bomb came and now we can make nuclear bombs, and we can blow up ourselves and the whole planet and there would be no one left to start again, The whole thing would be over, all the suffering, all the laughs, all the love, all the chit chat and bible and god thing would be over, so now they show up to ease our lives a little more, throughout history men has worked hard to earn his living, breaking his back, risking his life, has been taught lies and treated with deceit and died in the darkness not knowing what life is all about, only because god said so, and you do it, well now they show up to help us a little more of what it's all about, it's all about technology , development, innovation, indenpendence and free thinking, it's all about progress to live easier lives, not sweating, not breaking your back, not risking your life, but thinking, creating, innovating, so we can finally not depend on some prayer or some blessing to get our food, to live happy, relaxed, to think freely and create something good afterwards, the nuclear and atomic bombs, are the reason why we have advanced more than any other century in the history of humanity, those bombs got them scared and made them help us out a little more than just giving us, revelations, bibles, prayers, faith, and all that stuff that basically leads to blindness, and ofcourse there are different god's in the bible, jesus teachings are totally different from the old testament, "eye for an eye" and "put the other cheek" are tottaly the opposite, this earth and everything in it, is like a zoo that has been under different owners, how do they change powers ???? I don't know do they simply buy planets as if they were houses?? maybe, but one thing is for certain those races do not care for the people in africa who are dying of aids, or the people who is dying in agony in a hospital, or the wars that were fought with swords and shields, and guns and rifles, because they knew that even after those deaths there would still be people left to start society again, but now , if there is a nuclear world war, its hard to predict if anyone would be left alive and if someones survives it will be hard to live with so much radiation, they dont want that, so that's why development has been better than ever during the last century because they are in it too.

Originally posted by Leveller
I don't misunderstand the word "before". I take it in context with everything else that I see in the Bible.

Didn't you? You did?

You said:

Even the Commandment is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
Not only does he acknowledge the existence of other gods but he doesn't exactly condemn their worship either. It doesn't say "You will worship no other god other than me". It says "You will worship me first".

That sentence in context in the chapter:

Exodus
20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Why would a jealous God be saying its ok to worship other gods, as long as you worship me first? That's rather like a jealous girlfriend saying its ok to date other people as long as you don't cancel dates with her. That just doesn't happen.

In context with other things in the bible:

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deuteronomy 13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Joshua 22:5
But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

If one worships two gods, how can one serve the LORD your God with all of anything?


There are no other gods in the presence of God. To God, the other gods worshipped by men are not gods.

It's always convenient to see what we want, isn't it?

.

[edit on 17-7-2004 by Raphael_UO]

Barth take heart.
God still IS, although God isn't yaweh.
this is a magnificent earth experience, thankfully is it not eternal.