Confiscation of Gold and Silver by the U.S. Government

Originally posted by TV_Nation
I think this entire thread is skeptical.... The orders in the Wikipedia link were revoked so no longer are in affect.

Originally posted by iLoGiCViZiOnS
I hate to shoot a theory down that is Anti Government Capitalism etc but I really don't see them confinscating any Gold anytime soon. They need us. We are their slaves and they don't want to piss us off in record numbers for fear what happened in Egypt could happen here. Relax People!

I agree with this statement. This video sums it up.

wow that video was spot on.. thanks for posting it

Big difference between 1933 and 2011.

in 1933, Gold and Silver were common in "legal" tender coins and were widely used.

and, Gold traded as a commodity was tightly priced, unlike today.

plus:

Order 6102 specifically exempted "customary use in industry, profession or art"—a provision that covered artists, jewelers, dentists, and sign makers among others. The order further permitted any person to own up to $100 in gold coins ($1,677 if adjusted for inflation as of 2010; a face value equivalent to 5 troy ounces (160 g) of Gold valued at about $6200 as of 2010). The same paragraph also exempted "gold coins having recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins." This protected gold coin collections from legal seizure and likely melting.

it was also hard for the Gov't to enforce the hoarding part.

they didn't have good metal detectors back then!

There was only one prosecution under the order, and in that case the order was ruled invalid by federal judge John M. Woolsey, on the technical grounds that the order was signed by the President, not the Secretary of the Treasury as required.[3]

The circumstances of the case were that a New York attorney, Frederick Barber Campbell, had on deposit at Chase National over 5,000 troy ounces (160 kg) of gold. When Campbell attempted to withdraw the gold Chase refused and Campbell sued Chase. A federal prosecutor then indicted Campbell on the following day (September 27, 1933) for failing to surrender his gold.[4] Ultimately the prosecution of Campbell failed but the authority of federal government to seize gold was upheld.

The case forced the Roosevelt administration to issue a new order under the signature of the Secretary of the Treasury, Henry Morgenthau, Jr., which was in force for a few months until the passage of the Gold Reserve Act on January 30, 1934.

Some months back, I spoke with a fellow I know casually who is deeply into the gold/silver market. I asked his opinion on buying gold. His response was that if I did, I should buy only coins minted before a certain date. When I asked why, he told me something that was so unbelievable I had to see it for myself.

I did. To this day I wish I had written down at least the page number, but at the time I didn't think to. So I can't link it here; all I can do it tell you approximately where to find it.

Buried within the Patriot Act, inside those 1000+ pages, is one small paragraph. It states that under this act, the President has the power to confiscate any gold, silver, or other metallic monetary items as he sees fit by issuance of an Executive Order in any time of National Emergency or to aid in National Security.

If someone has the time and patience to dig through all that mess and find it, please send me the page number?

TheRedneck

They can do anything they want
They have not and will not limit themselves
that is the whole idea

'stards

Thats why I say
There will be a time to DUMP gold and silver, and switch to what the I Ching would call
"things have value because of their usefulness and mobility"


Even then things like colloidal silver ( practicle uses) and jewelry and art and the like will always hold some value.

reply to post by TheRedneck


TR, I looked around but the only specific reference to the Patriot Act and gold confiscation I could find is this link

news.goldseek.com...

and this one by a guy running a company in Australia by the name of Peter Schiff (Euro Pacific Capital) out of Perth.

He claims that gold deposited in Australian runs almost no risk of confiscation, because "Another safety factor, the risk of confiscation, is also minimal. Unlike the U.S. government, which under the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 made it illegal for U.S. citizens to own gold, Australia has no such history."

Apparently he doesn't his own country's history very well, or counts on us in other countries not knowing it:

"In Australia part IV of the Banking act 1959 allows the government to seize private citizens' gold in return for paper money where the Governor-General "is satisfied that it is expedient so to do, for the protection of the currency or of the public credit of the Commonwealth.[13]" As of January 30 1976, this part's operation is "suspended"."

Merely "suspended" doesn't indicate it won't happen if there is a global currency collapse. Interesting timing on that "suspension" it coincides nicely with the 1974, Dec 31 end of prohibition of mass gold ownership in the US under Pres. Gerald Ford; might indicate what happens during a global currency flux might affect other nations and vice versa, as for as mass gold ownership.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

reply to post by mydarkpassenger

I didn't find it through a link... have never seen any site mention it, even ATS... I pulled up an online copy of the Patriot Act on pdf and he told me which page to look on. If memory serves, that paragraph was a little more than halfway down the page. I also remember it wasn't close to the first or last of the Act... it was somewhere in the middle.

I realized how stupid I was to not jot down the page number when I started to write out a thread for here about it... which I never did because I couldn't find the proof.

TheRedneck

David Morgan was one of the two initial sources for this latest confiscation rumor. On Friday, he felt the need to clarify the issue with a bit of new information while in conversation with Jim Puplava. His remarks are brief, and to the point, just fast forward to the 3:27 mark.

MP3

And by all means, be sure to read Trader Dan's commentary the issue.

Trader Dan's Market Views

Thursday, February 17, 2011

Gold Confiscation Chatter once again

It seems as if there is some sort of universal law, akin to gravity or centrifugal force, that whenever the price of gold is moving higher, talk MUST surface about it being confiscated by the US government. I do not know whether this is also related to the tides or activity on the surface of the sun but it seems as if it is designed to create a sense of near panic among those who want to buy the metal against an inevitable devaluation of the US Dollar.

Rather than spending untold hours of precious time answering individual emails, I decided to just post a short response to this here. - Read On

If you're still concerned and decide to dump, I doubt you'll have trouble finding a buyer

*Not advice*

Gold and silver are just a standard. There are other metals out there, platinum, palladium, copper, aluminum titanium etc. More cumbersome and harder to use but they can be used.

Gold and silver are only standards anyhow.

They can only take away your property if you let them. Learn the law and don't let yourself be tricked into 'voluntary compliance' with their thievery.

doesnt matter to me

i have invested my money in lead and harley parts

Originally posted by JustinIowa
reply to post by St-Patrick

 

Well, since you're mocking my country, I will mock your intelligence, or lack thereof.

Land of the free, home of the brave.... jean-yus

Our 2nd amendment of the US Constitution is there for the reason that firepower is needed in repelling tyranny. Foriegn and domestic. The founding fathers knew and were witness to this in there time. To read the Declaration of Independence, it is easy to see astounding similarities then and now. Tyrants will not release power and control willingly. Freedom is not free. We let down our guard and corrupting influences infiltrated our government over a century ago slowly eating away at the foundation of this country. During the reading of the Constitution in the new congress, a member scoffed. This is the belief of some of these morally bankrupt goons that snaked their way in with the help of corporate aid. Congress is supposed to be of the people. Most retiring members are now going to work for the lobbying firms that used them to slip crap like obamacare through. These guys need to be prosecuted 1st and foremost as a lesson to any others that might sell out the honor.

Assuming that the govt did recall the gold as per the 1933 EO, they would not be able to force you to sell it at 10 cts on the dollar (pay $200 when the market price is $2000...like "cash for gold"). 1st, they would have to pay the market price, 2nd, they would likely honor the exemptions cited in the original 6102 order (5 double eagles or ~5 oz, numismatic coins [2x+ the bullion value], jewelry, and dental gold). 3rd, t is unlikely that they will revalue the gold price at 5x the value when they only revalued it 1.69x higher in 1933. However, unlike 1933 when only one person was prosecuted for not turning in their gold, the federal government ("ve have ways") has means to track non cash purchases from large vendors and will enforce it (probably with another large jail sentence and a 6 figure fine). In 1933 they didnt recall any silver or other metals but I do think that they call be included in a future recall given a) the greater values now compared to then and b) the strategic nature of these and other metals (ie, PL & PA).

The government could certainly rationalize calling in at least the legal tender coins which would not only include 90% silver coins (1964 & before) but also the popular US Silver Eagles. When the treasury first minted the gold and silver eagles back in 1986 they had 'face values" of "$50" & "$1", respectively. It is entirely possible that a recall when only come when they plan a new currency backed (at least nominally) by gold and silver. It could be a new US currency as a stepping stone to a world currency or straight to a world currency unit (WCU) directly. Either way it will likely occur after a period of inflation and the new currency could be 100:1 exchange with gold at 50x silver. Personally, I think that the $2000 price for a recall is a trial ballon (just short of the inflation adjusted 1980 high [using govt statistics]. I think that they will let it go to $3000 (but it will take a real crisis to get there) and then do the recall and at the same time institute a flash crash (like 1987 in stocks) and force people who dont cash in immediately to take less for the gold (there will be a window with a deadline). At $3000 they could offer $2958 (mkt discount for bid as you cant sell to dealers at the actual price) and then after (after they trash it to $1600 in a few weeks) readjust the price to $5000 on the world mkt (not $10000) which is the same 1.69 ratio from 2958 to 5000 as it was in 1933 (20.67 to 35.00). And then when they collect the gold readjust the currency 100:1 with the dollar exchangeable for WCUs at 1:1 (local currency for everyday transactions). This would price the us eagles at their original face values: gold eagles at $50 and the silver eagles at $1 (which implies a pre-conversion price of $100 to gold's $5000 after repriced to be exchangeable with the WCUs).

Confiscation at a different scale, "cash for gold!" one can see it all over the place now. The desperate and poor are being decieved into handing over their gold for worthless paper.

Of course this doesn't account for much of the gold that is out there but its a start. It's definitely takes whatever little the poor had away. And as the lower-middle class becomes the new poor they will follow suit, etc.

reply to post by TheRedneck


Maybe this will help you:

GOLD. . . . AND THE PATRIOT ACT
REGULATIONS EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2006


CLEARLY SHOW . . . .
THE INTENT - TO (ONCE AGAIN) - PROHIBIT
THE OWNERSHIP OF GOLD IN ANY FORM
OTHER THAN -- JEWELRY & ANTIQUE COINS
. . . . These new rules can be found on the internet at the Federal Register website. However, the specific definitions are buried at the very end of the third column on page 33716. They specifically define, under federal law, what IS and what IS NOT "bullion.". . . . Also, they define, under the Patriot Act - what IS and IS NOT "antique numismatic gold."

forum.treasurenet.com...

reply to post by Fractured.Facade

This article states that numismatic or "antique coins" must have a value of "at least the bullion value" That statement is quite misleading as all bullion coins trade (exc for slight discounts to sell them to a dealer) at the bullion value. The yardstick (per 1933 as I understand) is 2X THE BULLION VALUE....not 40% over bullion for overpriced gold british sovereigns, swiss or french francs as sold by Goldline and the like (under the premise of future confiscation). You would have to buy real numismatic coins and that doesnt include common MS-60 Double Eagles. You would have to look at either rarer dates or PCGS (or equivalent) MS-63 or higher grades. The key is 2x bullion. Do you have a direct link to the language in the Patriot Act that refers to gold bullion and bullion coins (as it was not in the article)?

You can browse and search the Patriot Act here:

www.asksam.com...

Using that the only thing I can find that comes close to what TheRedneck may have read is the following, and it has been amended...

Section 203 of the International Emergency Powers Act (50 U.S.C. 1702) is amended--

(1) in subsection (a)(1)--

(A) at the end of subparagraph (A) (flush to that subparagraph), by striking `; and' and inserting a comma and the following:

`by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States;';

(B) in subparagraph (B)--

(i) by inserting `, block during the pendency of an investigation' after `investigate'; and

(ii) by striking `interest;' and inserting `interest by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; and';

(C) by striking `by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States`; and

(D) by inserting at the end the following:

`(C) when the United States is engaged in armed hostilities or has been attacked by a foreign country or foreign nationals, confiscate any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, of any foreign person, foreign organization, or foreign country that he determines has planned, authorized, aided, or engaged in such hostilities or attacks against the United States; and all right, title, and interest in any property so confiscated shall vest, when, as, and upon the terms directed by the President, in such agency or person as the President may designate from time to time, and upon such terms and conditions as the President may prescribe, such interest or property shall be held, used, administered, liquidated, sold, or otherwise dealt with in the interest of and for the benefit of the United States, and such designated agency or person may perform any and all acts incident to the accomplishment or furtherance of these purposes.'; and

(2) by inserting at the end the following:

`(c) CLASSIFIED INFORMATION- In any judicial review of a determination made under this section, if the determination was based on classified information (as defined in section 1(a) of the Classified Information Procedures Act) such information may be submitted to the reviewing court ex parte and in camera. This subsection does not confer or imply any right to judicial review.'.

Seems they have amended it to be more focused on foreigners... But this line seems to be open to a lot of interpretation...

"confiscate any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States"

I don't see how this could be used to confiscate gold, silver etc.

No worries, Obama can't take your gold... Unless you are a foreigner and maybe a terrorist with gold and silver.

The 1099 tax form covers contractors who make an independant income , income from dividends and income from all others things except a salary and a wage . The 2010 , 1099 requires the disclosure of gold holding and buried in the health care bill is the provision that in 2012 and beyond every transaction in gold bullion above $600.00 must be declared to be taxed . For 2012 all dealers , buyers and sellers must keep accurate records of sales transactions above $600.00 . Use only cash to buy gold and leave no paper trail from credit cards , money orders , electronic transfers or personal checks . Don't worry about the market . The last time gold was confiscated less than 30% of the bullion was actually turned in and almost all was serial numbered investment bars . The official price was $22.00 per ounce and dealers shot the off the books price to $28.00 to $30.00 per ounce and shipped it to refiners in Europe and Mexico for $35.00 per ounce . The whole world has to outlaw private ownership and transaction or a confiscation scheme will never work so if the USA ever does it again , gold becomes instantly more valuable for those who don't submit . If gold is $1,900.00 when a confiscation scheme is imposed , it's worth $2,300.00 the next day . Same as good Canadian whiskey during prohibition . Buy only from a manufactured source of a highly recognized mint or refinery because if the SHTF no one will buy other gold without an assays on every coin , wafer or bar . If the SHTF don't be holding numismatic coinage because no one is going to be paying any numismatic premium or collector value . You get bullion price or slightly lower so if you paid $1,700.00 for that St. Gaudin coin that contains $1,300.00 in gold , you'll be getting $1,300.00 or slightly lower . If the situation ever does get that bad no one will care about your collector value because there will be no numismatic collectors and everything will be based on spot bullion . Numismatic value will be as worthless as your stamp collection .

reply to post by JustinIowa


He's from Canada. You forgot to add an "eh?"

I've been aware of this for a while from other sources also.
I have been steadily buying silver over the last few months and ok I only have around 2kilos but if nothing else I hope it will be an investment.

Anyhooooo

More on the Red Alert Message here although the first video doesn't really get into the topic untill around 5mins.

Wow great predictions. It's either stuff that has already happened or will never happen lol.

Originally posted by St-Patrick
reply to post by JustinIowa

 

The 2011 United States of America =

FEMA camps

Earth Quakes created by frakking and/or HAARP (inside jobs)

Gold confiscation

Police State

33% of population obesity (higher rate in the world)

Bank Bail out

No health care for the poor

Invading other countries in the name of democracy (oil)

Disinformation in the MSM

Banks are ruling the country

Internet kill switch

10 years incarceration for getting caught with 1 gram of pot

Billions of $$$ in secret operation budget

Rank 2nd worldwide for child poverty

............
........
...

That would deserve its own thread

What a wonderful world

edit on 21-2-2011 by St-Patrick because: typo

edit on 21-2-2011 by St-Patrick because: (no reason given)

Then again this was posted in April 2010 and makes interesting viewing....ie exchanging Gold for cash but also discussing Hyper inflation where only Gold and Silver have value.



I think the day we see a major exporter to the US asking to be paid in Gold not dollars is the day we will start to worry.