Religion

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
We have domain over them yes. Does that mean they are less worthy, absolutely not.

I didn't mean "less worthy" in the sense that they deserve to be treated like crap, I meant they are less capable of actually comprehending pain and fear, thus it makes it ok for us to eat them. They are "less worthy" in the sense they are a simple type of entity lacking the ability to think and feel. We have domain over them simply for this reason alone. If they were indeed sentient beings, they would be our equals and would need to be respected as intelligent emotive entities. But they aren't, and God even says so.

First, I do not subscribe to the old testament. What ever is in there does not hold weight over me. Christ never taught about how to interact with the animals. His mission was hard enough getting man to love one another.

As for animals not being as sentient as we are, personally, I feel they are worthy of every bit of compassion and love we extend to each other. I was raised around farm animals and I know they have emotions, feel pain, suffer lose, very much like we do.

Can we eat them? We can, but look at the repercusions of doing so. We have just about depleted our fish stocks, the industrial farming going on is putting animals in a life of abject misery, and the rest of the world starves as we die of obesity.

The problem isn't us eating them at all, the problem is SO MANY of us eating other species. Nature is about balance, and we don't give a rats ass about that balance, we take what we want when we want it, without the slightest thought about future repercussions. If there were less humans on this Earth, and we truly respected other life on this planet, and didn't waste our food or eat like glutenous pigs, there wouldn't be a problem would there.

I cannot find fault in your statement here. Preach on wiseman!

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

As for animals not being as sentient as we are, personally, I feel they are worthy of every bit of compassion and love we extend to each other. I was raised around farm animals and I know they have emotions, feel pain, suffer lose, very much like we do.

Yes, as I said, SOME animals have degree of sentience, I suspect you are referring to animals like pigs, horses and cows, correct? But what about chickens? They show less emotion and self-awareness right? Some animals are simply more complex than others, that is an undeniable fact IMO. Not everything is designed (by nature) to think and feel, to have dreams, to love. What I'm saying really isn't very hard to grasp, and I can't understand why you deny it. A sperm doesn't have dreams, do you think it loves? OF COURSE NOT. Such statements are absurd. Just as it is absurd to state all "life" is sentient. It may appear sentient, simply because it can do supposedly "intelligent" tasks, but that's not the truth at all. The truth is, some things can and do work without sentience.

Originally posted by WhizPhiz
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

As for animals not being as sentient as we are, personally, I feel they are worthy of every bit of compassion and love we extend to each other. I was raised around farm animals and I know they have emotions, feel pain, suffer lose, very much like we do.

Yes, as I said, SOME animals have degree of sentience, I suspect you are referring to animals like pigs, horses and cows, correct? But what about chickens? They show less emotion and self-awareness right? Some animals are simply more complex than others, that is an undeniable fact IMO. Not everything is designed (by nature) to think and feel, to have dreams, to love. What I'm saying really isn't very hard to grasp, and I can't understand why you deny it. A sperm doesn't have dreams, do you think it loves? OF COURSE NOT. Such statements are absurd. Just as it is absurd to state all "life" is sentient. It may appear sentient, simply because it can do supposedly "intelligent" tasks, but that's not the truth at all. The truth is, some things can and do work without sentience.

I had a pet chicken once. It would wait for me at the door every morning. It had tricks it would do. How sentient was it? I do not know, I am not a chicken. How sentient is a sperm? I do not know, I am not a sperm anymore.

With Love,

Your Brother

Anyone who is questioning their faith should read the works of the Greek Philosopher Epicurus.

He truly gets it.

Once you read Epicurus, you will realize that religion is a fairytale.

reply to post by bdb818888




It is good that you are aware of history. Don't make the mistake of thinking that humanity becomes perfected just because we know something about God. We still have to achieve through experience. During all this we know that perfection is only in God and that we would err greatly in expecting paradise prematurely here on Earth. The trials of life are with purpose. We cannot be simply given eternal life just because we accept God....etc etc. We still have to learn all the lessons through first hand experience. Salvation does not follow the acceptance of Jesus only. Without passing through the fires we learn or gain nothing. We earn what we get or we never achieve wisdom.

reply to post by bdb818888


Your friend has a fundamentally immature rationale for his atheism. The actions of people in the name of a deity do nothing to verify or refute the claims that aforementioned deity exists, those actions merely weigh upon the merits of religious practice.

I'm an atheist and the only reason I need is the lack of reason to believe.

Originally posted by trailertrash
It is good that you are aware of history. Don't make the mistake of thinking that humanity becomes perfected just because we know something about God. We still have to achieve through experience. During all this we know that perfection is only in God and that we would err greatly in expecting paradise prematurely here on Earth. The trials of life are with purpose. We cannot be simply given eternal life just because we accept God....etc etc. We still have to learn all the lessons through first hand experience. Salvation does not follow the acceptance of Jesus only. Without passing through the fires we learn or gain nothing. We earn what we get or we never achieve wisdom.

We are perfect and we are in a perfect paradise my friend. It is because we do not see it as perfect, we do not treat each other as though we are perfect, that we turn it into something it is not. The creator does not make mistakes. The mistakes are Man's judgements.

As Christ said, be perfect even as the father who is in you is perfect.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
Your friend has a fundamentally immature rationale for his atheism. The actions of people in the name of a deity do nothing to verify or refute the claims that aforementioned deity exists, those actions merely weigh upon the merits of religious practice.

I'm an atheist and the only reason I need is the lack of reason to believe.

I love seeing you pop up in these threads.

Do you know why you cannot see God my friend? He is within YOU. The observer cannot see itself. It is your own conscious that is the mind of God. You are correct in refuting the many false deities mankind as made through out time. What saddens me is that despite there errors, you seem unable to see the divine in others. Human consciousness is no mere accident of evolution. It is the product of many many years of development. What we have achieved is something unheard of anywhere on earth. We can more than observe our surroundings and adapt to them. We can unlock every mystery of this existence. We could not do that any other way than if the consciousness that is ours was a part of the universe without. No other way could we comprehend the depth and breadth of the invisible. Atoms, nebulae, quarks, and multiverses are all unseen by every other creature on this planet. They are visible to Man only because he felt they were there, and then pursued them.

I am curious, where do you think your thoughts come from? Those thoughts of the unknown which lead to the discovery of what is known?

With Love,

Your Brother

I was raised as christian, I became agnostic because I learned that religions were made only for control of masses. So-called "holy books" are based on sumerian legends. They just altered the events, added a bunch of crappy stories and removed some of them. Huala, here you go. You have a holy book. They all were written by man, that means they were made up by man.
And yes, since i'm agnostic, I believe that there is something that created us. But who, or what, or why exactly it created us is something I will probably never find out. But I won't follow any religious rules made by man, just because he says so. I will do what I think is right.
Truth is, that there are only two ways. Only one of them is right.
You either believe there is something ABOVE us or don't. You cannot really prove either way. What religions do is that they mock THEIR IDEA of "god". But they will never prove they are right, never.
Atheists don't believe in anything.
Agnostics do, but we don't specify who or what it is, how does he/it look like, behave, do,etc, because we don't know. That gives us free will and no pre-determined rules. We follow rules we consider to be right. But regarding "God", we will probably never find out, because we can't. We choose to believe in something because it's easier to think of. We have some hope that our lives have at least some meaning.

reply to post by bdb818888


First, the the hardcore Satan worshippers sacrifice others in his name, of course you don't hear about all of them cause Satan likes it quite and hidden from our view ( usually late night). Second, Jesus spoke against killing in his name, he warned against churches and the twisting of the faith. Stick to the Word. And of course, dying in his name isnt a bad thing. As crazy as it sounds, you're not just dying for Him; you're his message, you're dying for your faith, and you're dying for the rewards upon your return (like being a soldier in Jesus' army against the Antichrist, for one). A martyr doesn't die for The Lord by killing himself in the process of killing others, he doesn't die in a battle in his name. A martyr fights a battle with his words and actions to reach out to the hard-hearted and the blind. A true martyr dies at the hands of persecutors. This life is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity, and if you're called to give your life for His message then you should rejoice. Though there's been a lot of stuff that was "in His name" even though it was contrary to Jesus' teachings. He warned us about that.
Peace!

Originally posted by TheFuzzMonster
First, the the hardcore Satan worshippers sacrifice others in his name, of course you don't hear about all of them cause Satan likes it quite and hidden from our view ( usually late night). Second, Jesus spoke against killing in his name, he warned against churches and the twisting of the faith. Stick to the Word. And of course, dying in his name isnt a bad thing. As crazy as it sounds, you're not just dying for Him; you're his message, you're dying for your faith, and you're dying for the rewards upon your return (like being a soldier in Jesus' army against the Antichrist, for one). A martyr doesn't die for The Lord by killing himself in the process of killing others, he doesn't die in a battle in his name. A martyr fights a battle with his words and actions to reach out to the hard-hearted and the blind. A true martyr dies at the hands of persecutors. This life is but a blink of an eye compared to eternity, and if you're called to give your life for His message then you should rejoice. Though there's been a lot of stuff that was "in His name" even though it was contrary to Jesus' teachings. He warned us about that.
Peace!

Wow! Where did you come from?

Well met Brother!

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by bdb818888


I'd hate to be involved in someone questioning their own beliefs, so maybe you shouldn't watch this short clip... But I had to throw it in there!

This may be off topic but it does show that animals do respond to humans who give them care and love. A writing spider had a web just outside our front porch. My son who was only 5 then ...started throwing her some food, dead flies and hamburger meat. She would run down and get it. One day I noticed that she had quit repairing her web every night. My son would have a hard time finding a spot to put food on. Then one day I did not see her any more. BUT..got up the next morning to find she had moved into my kitchen with an absolutely beautifully woven web!!! As soon as I walked over she ran down the web!!! Needless to say, I got a jar, put her in it and took her back outside. BUT..she came up on the front porch to build the web. I let her stay until it got cold .and one day she was gone and never came back. We missed her and my son even cried. I even took a picture of her.
And that was just one many adventures with animals and bugs that I have had with my son's love of the animal kingdom. (one including an old black snake we fed for years.)

reply to post by ellieN

This may be off topic but it does show that animals do respond to humans who give them care and love

I can match your heartwarming story with one of my own from my childhood. When I was around 5, I saw a bee desperately floundering in a bucket of water, and my heart went out to it and I rescued it by scooping it up with the palm of my hand. The bee thanked me by stinging me, and it hurt like hell.

How this relates to the topic at hand, I'm not really sure either. I was an atheist at that tender age, so I didn't sacrifice my comfort in the name of any religion, but I guess in my desire to "do good", I was oblivious to the natural instincts of the bee. Well, anyway, it was an important life lesson for me.

reply to post by Seed76


You wrote:

["Does your friend knows that, the indisputable fact is, that all the religions of the world put together have in 2,000 years not managed to kill as many people as have been killed in the name of atheism in the past few decades?"]

In the name of WHAT atheism? You're inventing things now to fit with your predetermined answers.

Quote: ["See, I can go also on those lines as your friend does. In my opinion it´s stupid to go with such arguments."]

Yes, you are very clever.

Quote: [" The truth is that "Humans" are behind those mass murders and not God."]

I'm quite sure, that these "humans" involved in religious atrocities must have been influenced by a book filled with commands of genocide, stoning, slavery etc.

And wasn't this holy manual supposed to be written,dictated or inspired by 'god'?

And in any case, it must be both a great consolation and justification to you, that there have been ideologies even more insane than invasive christianity (though they were stopped, while we still have extremist christians around).

reply to post by IAMIAM


You wrote:

["God is just a word my friend. We are arguing over semantics."]

And when that is settled, you go on to state your own absolutes about this semantic 'god'.


Quote: ["Your consciousness is an image of the creator of all. It is as valid as anyone elses. It yearns to express itself freely, to be loved, and to love in return. The only way we can stop oppressing each others desire to express our consciousness is to learn to love each expression equally."]

reply to post by trailertrash


You wrote:

["During all this we know that perfection is only in God and that we would err greatly in expecting paradise prematurely here on Earth."]

Who are "we"? And how do 'we' KNOW this?

So many more. It started with Adam and Eve. Remember, the wages of sin is death. So all who have not accepted Jesus as Lord will pay the price of eternal death. More earthly bound, think of all the chaos Satan has caused (i.e. Holocaust). Don't let anyone or anything cause you to loose your faith. Keep your eye to Heaven, we are in the last days.

Originally posted by pintobean
So many more. It started with Adam and Eve. Remember, the wages of sin is death. So all who have not accepted Jesus as Lord will pay the price of eternal death. More earthly bound, think of all the chaos Satan has caused (i.e. Holocaust). Don't let anyone or anything cause you to loose your faith. Keep your eye to Heaven, we are in the last days.

And exactly how do you explain that your mini-sermon isn't anything but fantasies taken from a book of fantasies?

Originally posted by bogomil
["God is just a word my friend. We are arguing over semantics."]

And when that is settled, you go on to state your own absolutes about this semantic 'god'.


Quote: ["Your consciousness is an image of the creator of all. It is as valid as anyone elses. It yearns to express itself freely, to be loved, and to love in return. The only way we can stop oppressing each others desire to express our consciousness is to learn to love each expression equally."]

BOGO!!!

How ya been my cantankerous ole friend!

I believe in the post that was pulled from we were discussng consciousness. Therefore, what I said WAS a matter of semantics. I do not see the conflict you are alluding to. Are you stating that someone's consciousness doe NOT yearn to express itself, to love and be loved?

Who else would your consciousness desire to express? Does yours desire to hate and be hated?

I am lost as to what we are at odds over here.

With Love,

Your Brother