China launches new type of sub, American intelligence "suprised"

The information that the US was suprised was false. They did know about this sub, which is a variant of the Kilo for sometime. They were suprised that it was being shown now. They thought that they would wait. It may of been the rising tensions that prompted them to take out their sub.

Originally posted by Kozzy
The latest versions of the MiG-29 are not superior to the F-16. The latest versions of the Su-30 and it's varients are not superior to the F-18s but maybe equal to the F-15s.

Russian naval air is also dead...because it's Navy is dead...like it's space program...for now.

I'll give it to you on SAMs, they are good.

And I haven't heard of the US purchasing Russian technology for another else then testing

[edit on 17-7-2004 by Kozzy]

Sorry to inform you but the lastest versions of the Mig-29 have a few things over the F-16. They are faster, have more power, two engines, better climb rate, variable intakes. I am not saying the F-16 is bad but it was never designed to go up head to head with an aircraft like the Mig-29. If the F-16 gets the upgraded versions of the AIM-120 and AIM-9 then it may be a different story. Also the F-16 does have the better air to ground capability and can carry a more varied bomb load. The F-15 is getting outdated and the Su-30 does have the edge in some places. The Su-30 has more power, better climb rate, two radars, rear firing missiles. But it is not to say that the F-15 is a bad aircraft. It is getting old. It ws designed in the late 60s to early 70s. The Su-30 is a much later design.

Where did you hear that from?

They are currently modifying the first four of them to carry tomahawks and are being redesignated as SSGNs. They did not have the ability to carry them before, as that would be a waste.

Where do you get your information from?

You just said it yourself they are modyifing them pretty soon all ohio class subs will have tamahawk missiles which is a cruise missile
also the Mig-29 is not better than the 50/60 block F-16 which are the updated version of it plus like you said the F-15 is old.

[edit on 17-7-2004 by WestPoint23]

No all of them are going to be converted.

here is a latest picture of china's latest stealth FFG 525. If you are interested. I personally think it is a looker.

www.wforum.com...

Originally posted by WestPoint23
You just said it yourself they are modyifing them pretty soon all ohio class subs will have tamahawk missiles which is a cruise missile

The only ones that will be able to shoot tomahawks will be the SSGNs and SSNs. SSBNs do not have the capability to shoot tomahawks, nor would they be used for that. It is not their mission to do cruise missile shoots.

I thought I had made that clear in the earlier post? Guess not.

Originally posted by COOL HAND
The only ones that will be able to shoot tomahawks will be the SSGNs and SSNs. SSBNs do not have the capability to shoot tomahawks, nor would they be used for that. It is not their mission to do cruise missile shoots.

I thought I had made that clear in the earlier post? Guess not.

I agree with COOL HAND. I don't know what's the point some guys argue
this. Equiped with cruise missile to proved it is more advanced ? that is
joke. Equip with what kind of missile depends on what is the mission.
Cruise missile is used for ground attack, not for handling the threat
from the sea. If the whole sub is sunk by another sub, what is the use
it carrying so many tomahawk missiles.

Originally posted by jetsetter
The information that the US was suprised was false. They did know about this sub, which is a variant of the Kilo for sometime. They were suprised that it was being shown now. They thought that they would wait. It may of been the rising tensions that prompted them to take out their sub.

Firstly, the sub is not variant of Kilo. It is one of the 035 class sub, which
is old style sub with some modern modification. China has more advanced
039 class sub and Russian's Kilo sub. The sub this topic is talking seems
like another completely new design, and it is said US intelligence assigned
it a new name. But in China, we don't know if it is still classified in 039 class
or will set a new class like 040 class for it.

The event happened near japan sent shock to japan just because
the sub is old and by far not the most advanced in Chinese sub fleet.
Japan is known having the most advanced sub detecting technology
and network.

About this event, there are several versions of story and we don't know
which one will be true. All we know is US & Japan held a joint navy drill
near japan, and in this timing suddenly a 035 class sub surfaced while
it is sailing back towards China, and after it surfaced, soon there comes
a P3 anti-sub plane, and the plane escorted the sub several tens of miles
before the sub dive again into the sea.

One version is like jetsetter said, that US & Japan knew this, but they did
not take any action.

The other version is there are multiple sister subs there monitoring the joint
drill, after they completed the mission and sailing back, one sub surfaced
in order to send message to japan. What is the message ? I guess it is
telling japan that their anti-sub network is not perfect, and better not
mess with America to interfere Chinese taiwan issue.

Which version is true depends on your own judge.

Wuhan is a deep water port about two hundred kilometers upriver from the mouth of the Yangze River. Wuhan Shipyard was started there seventy five years ago. In the PRC era it has become the primary builder of China�s non-nuclear submarines. In May, on the occasion of its anniversary, it displayed a new variant of the Song class guided missile submarine, longer than the parent, which, it was said, has an Air Independent auxiliary propulsion unit. Also in May two photographs were taken of a different, rather larger submarine, also at Wuhan shipyard. It appears the new submarine is as large or slightly larger than the 244 foot long (2350 ton displacement) Kilo Project 636. The DOD disclosed that this new class of conventional submarine has the code name �Yaun.�

It had been reported in the Chinese press that China had built its own version of the Russian �Kilo� class. It was stated that the submarine had been modified, and that the Chinese variant was �better� than its Russian counterpart. Analysts discounted this report as mere propaganda. Even the publication of a model of the submarine by an aviation magazine caused no change in this view: building a model is a lot easier than building a full sized submarine. But the photographs of the submarine, launched and undergoing the usual floating fitting out process at Wuhan, has caused a reinterpretation of this report. It is clear that this submarine is nearly ready for sea and that she is, indeed, a variant of the Russian Kilo class. However, it is not an exact copy. The diving planes are on the sail, and there are other detail changes. Given the Chinese have already fitted AIP in both Ming and Song type hulls, the possibility this is an AIP variant of the Kilo should not be discounted. It also may be able to launch cruise missiles from torpedo tubes, as the Song class do. Evaluation of the model indicates it is large enough. If so, it might indeed be said to be a �better� version of the Kilo than the Russian version.

There is another implication of this development. China has barely completed taking delivery of half a dozen of the third group of Ming class, It is now building the third variant of the Song class. There are two sub groups of Kilo with eight more building for delivery in 2006 and 2007. The first 093 class SSN is expected to commission in a few weeks. The first 094 SSBN is well under construction. Now we have another sub type of Kilo nearing completion. Clearly China has decided to acquire many types of submarines, more types than any other nation. The Chinese perception that its submarines are its first line warships is reinforced by the appointment of a submarine officer as the new commander of the navy (PLAN, or People's Liberation Army Navy). And it appears that the size of the Chinese submarine force is not declining, as was widely reported. Instead it appears that in excess of eighty submarines will be available (in one state or another) for the medium term. It also appears that this force is modernizing fast, and that in waters of interest to China, it probably has a significant, and growing, operational capability.

There's been some claim that the new Chinese sub is a radical "surprise" for the U.S. Navy. Despite the charges that the Navy "didn't know" they were building it, in fact the Navy did. The "surprise" was that the boat was ready sooner than expected, but it's really hard to tell when a boat will be finished, given that they're always built under a shed. As for its capabilities, well, a lot is being said, but while the new boat seems to be different from the previous class, it's not clear that she's a major leap forward.--
From: www.strategypage.com...

[edit on 7/17/04 by jetsetter]

Here is an actual pics of it:



It is a modified Kilo. The major modification is the relocation of the diving planes from the hull to the sail. There have been other modifications. An AIP system may of been installed.

Originally posted by jetsetter
The information that the US was suprised was false. They did know about this sub, which is a variant of the Kilo for sometime. They were suprised that it was being shown now. They thought that they would wait. It may of been the rising tensions that prompted them to take out their sub.

Sorry jetsetter, I mis-understood your this post. I think you are still talking
about the sub surfacing event near the costal of Japan, but you actually
talking about the new sub. My fault, and sorry again.

Most Russian made planes have the advantage up close they because they are more agile, as jetsetter said. But American planes have superior avionics and radar support, giving them an advantage farther out.

Basically what I'm saying, even if the Su-30 and MiG-29 were superior to America's anything, it wouldn't matter.

Originally posted by Kozzy
Most Russian made planes have the advantage up close they because they are more agile, as jetsetter said. But American planes have superior avionics and radar support, giving them an advantage farther out.

Basically what I'm saying, even if the Su-30 and MiG-29 were superior to America's anything, it wouldn't matter.

Yes, modern air war is sytem vs system, America has huge edge on this
point. I remember before I read a post which quote a miltary man said :
we don't care the other countries owning F16, no matter how many they
have, we can shoot all them down. But if the F16 comes from US airforce,
then we need to take it seriously.

The same plane, but with different system support, the threat will be
very very different.

Aircraft??
We have an entire aircraft forum. Do not go off-topic in this thread about Chinese Submarines. Air war and fighter planes have their place but it isn't here.

Originally posted by Spectre
Aircraft??
We have an entire aircraft forum. Do not go off-topic in this thread about Chinese Submarines. Air war and fighter planes have their place but it isn't here.

They're weapons...

what i dont get is why they moved the planes. shouldnt they turn faster down on the subs main body?

If the Chinese have a kilo sub we can detect it they are more nosy than the Ohio class subs and the so we can detect them the chicoms wont be able to sneak past our subs and attack our carrier fleets.

west point it doesnt need to sneak past it just makes like a hole in the water and waits for you. then fires off a torpedo.

Why did you use the Ohio class sub as an example? It is a ballistic missile sub. The Los Angles class is an attack sub, that is what the Chinese need to get past.

[edit on 7/17/04 by jetsetter]

Till now most effective way to handle sub threat is still using sub vs sub.
so it is LA sub's mission to clear the route for carrier.

But possible scenrio will be LA sub face a group of diesel subs, it is like
a tiger face a group wolves, hard to bet which one will win last.