Residents videotaping officers 'worries' HPD's chief

Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
Who are "These people", those who dare to video themselves or some stranger (78 year old grandma for instance) getting manhandled, stomped, tasered, or shot and killed? Why the threatening language here?

I am referring to the people who decide to get out of their cars and walk towards an officer with a cell phone in hand.

Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
30+ years ago, getting out was seen as the right and courteous thing to do. Officer can see you, and that you're not armed and not hiding anything. Nowadays you guys are so wound up, you don't know what you want. Officers always ask for citizens to get out anyway, so where does the threat issue apply here?

The key phrase being the Officer asks them to step out.. Thats different. I am referring to thne ones who just take it upon themselves to get out.

Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
Officers being videotaped should not cause any concern for you. Citizens expect to be videotaped on every stop/detainment, by dashcams and on-person cameras, and at every store, stop light and more. What's the difference here? Safety?

and as I have maintained in other threads, as an officer I dont care if I am recorded by media, or 3rd parties wathching what I am doing. If they interfere or force me to divert my attention (because they want to be over my shoulder or stand in the middle of the road) I tell them to knock it off. When I am dealing with someone that is the focus of my attention, again the last thing I want is to try to ask questions and explain whats going on, when all they are intrested in is recording what I am doing, and not paying attention to what I am saying.

Do it intelligently and we are fine - again as I have stated before.

Originally posted by 1SawSomeThings
What about all the innocent citizens shot while reaching for the seatbelt once some steroid enhanced PTSD adrenalized storm trooper orders them out of the vehicle. Don't agree? google it.

edit on 20-2-2011 by 1SawSomeThings because: added info

Riiight.. It happens, not gonna deny that.. All the more reason to actually listen to whats being said, and less on trying to grab your cell phone to record something in hopes of a pay day.

reply to post by harrytuttle


He made commentsd about people getting out of their cars on traffic stops.. Those are the ones that majorly concern us. We keep an eye on the ones around us to ensure its not something other than a 3rd party recording.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Honestly, I think you are likely a good person. I see the way you interact with people here, and note your intellectualism as a positive trait. Would that other cops were like that.

Thank you and there are more out there than you think. The issue is they dont make the news, for obvious reasons. All that is reported are the negative encounters (and in most of those cases rightfully so). If its good, it does not make the news.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
problem is, how many "laws" do you enforce that have no victim? That are a waste of your time? And, though that enforcement, creates a greater danger for yourself?

Danger goes with the job.. I can work an armed hostage situation, and have a positive result where no one is killed, hostages are released, we all go home at the end of the night, here on the other hand I could clock a car travelling 60 in a 40mph zone, stop them and end up being shot dead.. Its not as easy as some make it out to be in terms of what type of call is more dangerous. I would rather work a physical domestic that do traffic stops at 3 am.

As far as enforcement, its our job. We have nothing to do with punishment or fine, thats up to the courts.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
You have to understand that, as a person whose job it is to limit the freedom of a citizen, people are not going to like you.

Its not my job to limit anyones freedom. It is my job to enforce the laws in a firm but fair manner. I would submit that the person who violates the law is the one limiting their own freedoms, by breaking the law. As far as people not liking me, it goes with the job. Its why I would rather take an extra few minutes to answer their questions, and to give warnings an educate before citing. Chances are when I stop someone, they are already having a bad day which is most liekly the reason for the stop. Not paying attention to their speed, etc etc etc.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Just about every person has a horror story about a cop. And you are not like the folks at McDonalds. When that horror story includes a cop, the citizens rights, reputation, and freedom is put in danger (not to mention life). it is a humiliating event that creates actual trauma. I had an incident go bad enough that i would have a panic attack every time i drove past an officer. sometimes i would have to pull over and pull myself together. After a couple of years i got better. That officer was demoted over it, and eventually fired. If i ever see him again, i will not allow him to walk away. It is best that he no longer lives around here.

A valid point, but we have those same stories as well. No amount of training and mental preperation will adequately prepare any cop who has to discharge their weapon at another living person. The impact from that action (a clean / justified shoot) takes its toll. Car backfiring, second guessing their own actions.etc...

As far as your incident goes though, and I mean this with the utmost respect, look at what you wrote. You blanket and stereotype the situaton, putting all cops in the same boat of us limiting freedoms. We are taken to task for our actions, and at the very end, you insinuate you would take action towards this officer if you ever came across him again.

While I sympathize with the actiosn taken against you, revenge does not make it better, and seems kind of hypocritical (again all due respect) to hold officers to one standard, while ignoring it yourself. I am not siding with that officer, I am just saying that encounter has put you off to pretty much all law enforcement from your description. Regardless of the fact that I can have 40 citizen contacts in one day, and of those 40, 35 are absolute asses towards me, does not give me the right to treat the last 5 as the first 35. Its not fair to them.. All I ask is for the same courtesy to not be lumped in with those officers who do have ego / power trip / issues etc..

I dont care for he comparison, and I am sure people dont like it when I say all the people who have contact with cops are guilty.. Its far from the truth... Again, no offense intended by my response.. just pointing some of the contradictions out.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
you are a good man. you should find another profession. because of my own experiences, it is impossible for me to have a positive opinion on LEO's. The position corrupts the evil hearts of men far too easily.

edit on 20-2-2011 by bigfatfurrytexan because: (no reason given)

Fair opinion.. I wont be going to another profession though, and respectfully I wouldnt go around asking people in this profession to leave it. If for no other reason than its running away from a problem. We arent perfect, and in our profession mistakes will be made, and when they occur, again because of the nature of the work, it can end badly for all parties involved.

While I understand your view towards law enforcement, having people leave the profession will not fix the problem with the profession.

again.. all due respect and I am certainly not trying to dismiss anything you are saying, or trying to sound preachy towards you.

reply to post by Xcathdra

I would strongly urge people NOT to get out of your vehicle on a traffic stop to record whats going on. Its even more dangerous with a cell phone being pointed towards the officers:

Of course you wouldn't, but what you don't quite grasp as an armed henchmen of the state, is that you are in essence only that, an armed henchmen of the state.

Ultimately in a state that employs armed henchmen in a totaltarian society with too many tyranical laws, the only thing that the armed hench man can do is use their arms and brute force to make people comply.

The only thing the people can do is to stop complying in a let the chips fall where they may encounter designed to do what the state refuses to do, and that's curtail the enforcement of unjust and tyranical laws and the armed henchmen that enforce them.

So it's just as easy to offer you the advice to quit your job, find honest employment, to stop using the one act of kindness where you are actually serving the people in some capacity as an excuse for the other 9 acts where you are harming the people only to enrich the state.

Believe it or not ultimately common law favors the citizen acting against illegal search and siesure and kidnapping by armed henchmen of the state where they can't establish the legality of their actions.

Within common law about the only thing legal regarding most of the code action carried about the armed henchmen of the state, is that they do manage to use enough brute force and coercive tactics to get most people to contractually accept it through verbal submission to their color of authority.

Watch out for your own sake as that stops happening, and sadly most armed henchmen stop becoming citizens and thinking as and caring as citizens once they have been indoctrinated into a cadre of henchmen.

Smart people making their living this way might be lobbying superiors about the amount and unjust nature of the codes and their selective enforcement as a impedement to the citizens well being and their own.

Thugs with guns though, just keep on keeping on, demanding people submit simply because they have a gun, and insist on doing a job that revolves around armed extortion and kidnapping.

Good luck with that.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Fair enough...and i don't see you as being preachy.

FWIW, i just want to get a chance to break his nose. Nothing more. I am a "forgive and forget" kind of guy. But with his inappropriate actions he left my oldest son with a horrible memory of his dad failing him. I can never have a chance to repair that. I take my role of "dad" more seriously than anything else in life, and just thinking about that 1 time that I let my son down because of that cop makes "forgiving" impossible.

I don't take it out on all cops. i just keep my distance. that one instance taught me that it is better to just keep my distance than to rely on being a good citizen or a righteous man. Funny thing is, i sit on a few Boards of Directors with local law enforcement and attorneys/judges. I have to be around them all the time nowadays, and i have the reputation behind me that what happened 15 years ago would never happen today. Funny thing is, i am not a different person. I was no more righteous at that time than now.

Originally posted by PsykoOps
reply to post by Xcathdra

 

First of all most people know not to interfere with the officer while taping them. Even if they're dealing with you. You have a right to ask questions but you also have to co-operate within the law. Second that whole idea that cell phone guns are a danger to officers is complete bs. Even if that were true then any item pretty much would be in question. Pens, cameras, umbrellas you name it. Has there ever even been even a single case where officers are threatened or engaged with a cell phone gun?

Well, personally speaking as a person who has had to deal with make shift weapons, including home made guns (not a cell phone gun) I dont think it is BS at all. As far as the comment about anything an be used as a weapon, you are absolutely correct in that regard. Everything you named can be used in such a manner that it could kill a person.

The breakdown here is thought process... To the everyday law abiding person a pen is a pen. To us and criminals, it is a weapon, it is a make shift to to open handcuffs, its a drug container, etc. Handcuffs are the same way. Thake a set of handcuffs, latch down one side while leaving the other cuff unlatched, and you now have a weapon that when swung, can penetrate a human skull.

As far as thec ell phone gun, yes there has which is why you see the video I posted.. We receive officer safety bulletins all the time from items that turn up that we have not encountered before.

** GRAPHIC ** A "Routine" traffic stop dealing with a father and son.



A "Pen"


"Lipstick"



"knife gun"



Why we have issues with people keeping hands out of sight



Dangers of a handcuffed suspect


I point this stuff out because its not as easy as you make it out to be, and the whole reason for officer safety videos is because the topic of the video is a direct result of someone being injured or killed in a similar manner.

reply to post by Xcathdra


So because Q gave M a lipstick with a blade in it, in a James Bond movie, all lipstick should now be confiscated because the police saw the move and got nightmares.

The problem is the training videos that are often made by private security firms indoctrinating the armed henchmen of the state into a cult of fear, where they are purposefully made to be frightened of the very people they are meant to protect and serve, to instead just serve a heirarchy that makes one law after another to impoverish and deminish the people in their person.

Excellent, excellent, you have established that the police 'imagine' they need to be afraid of lipstick!

Because someone made a movie telling them they should be, someone who got paid to make it by a out of control bankrupt government that no longer abides by the will of the people, and needs a layer of defense between them and the people in the form of armed henchmen they brainwash into fearing the people.

Of course the state never misses an opportunity to brainwash the people to fear the henchmen either in that age old game of divide and conquer and use the masses to keep the masses themselves down.

And to think you imagine you are being paid to give advice!

Oh boy.

Originally posted by whaaa
Perhaps if the good LEOs didn't adhere to the "Blue Code" and protect the corrupt and brutal in your ranks the attitude would change to respect rather than disgust at the actions of the few.

The Blue Line you are referring to is not as prominent as you make it out to be. It is the exception and not the norm and news coverage bears that out..

Originally posted by whaaa
Institute citizen review boards rather than strictly "internal investigations" that usually result in no punishment or a mild slap on the wrist. Anything less and the problems are going to just get worse for all concerned.

A lot of cities have a citizen review board. I am not a fan off all of them, some are ok, because of the lack of training the citizen review board has in terms of state and federal laws governing officer actions and use of force. If they are used properly and the people are trained in that area then sure.

Originally posted by whaaa
And I'd like to add that LEOs should be dismissed immediately for steroid use.
www.aolnews.com...

As soon as it becomes illegal or violation department policy then sure. I dont use them, and as far as I know none of my cowrkers use em. I think they are problematic though, even more so in profession where anger control is paramount.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Of course you wouldn't, but what you don't quite grasp as an armed henchmen of the state, is that you are in essence only that, an armed henchmen of the state.

If we limit the view to that of paranoia and sterotyping sure.. I am armed, I am not a henchmen, I dont work for the State, I work for the citizens of my City, which is where my authority to enforce the laws of my city and state come from.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Ultimately in a state that employs armed henchmen in a totaltarian society with too many tyranical laws, the only thing that the armed hench man can do is use their arms and brute force to make people comply.

I completely disagree with this. Its to broad to paranoid, stereotypical and exhibits a clear misunderstanding of what it is we do and how we do it, based on negative news stories that dont always tell the entire story. I dont buy, nor will I ever buy, the notion that law enforcement and the military will team up with the Government to institute martial law. We enforce the laws that your elected officals create.

Once we do that, we have nothing else to do with punishment, as that lays with the Judges and lawyers. The cops have nothing to do with the number of people sent to prison for minor drug possession, that again is the judges and lawyers.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The only thing the people can do is to stop complying in a let the chips fall where they may encounter designed to do what the state refuses to do, and that's curtail the enforcement of unjust and tyranical laws and the armed henchmen that enforce them.

Or maybe people could stop bitching about the laws, and actually participate in the process to elect people that share their views and have the laws revoked. Afterall that is the proces is it not? The accusation you make towards law enforcement, as being armed henchment of the state, is no different than what you are suggesting the people do.

Participation is key and we dont have enough of it from the people. Things do not fix themselves, and it gets worse when we have morons elected to office, and the people forget to care and just rubberstamp the subsequent elections.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So it's just as easy to offer you the advice to quit your job, find honest employment, to stop using the one act of kindness where you are actually serving the people in some capacity as an excuse for the other 9 acts where you are harming the people only to enrich the state.

If we have such a problem with law enforcement, why on Gods green earth would you tell people to quit? It will not solve the problem at all. Only participation in Government will.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Believe it or not ultimately common law favors the citizen acting against illegal search and siesure and kidnapping by armed henchmen of the state where they can't establish the legality of their actions.

Believe it or not common law is not recognized in all 50 states, because of court rulings or State Constitutions. And your continued use of the term armed henchment is leading me to beleive that their is no open mindedness on your side here. It seems you have your mind made up on what you "think" should happen.

I understand the intent of what you are saying, and agree things need to change, but I do not agree with your game plan for that change (I am not saying your wrong, I just dont agree with it).

Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by whaaa
Perhaps if the good LEOs didn't adhere to the "Blue Code" and protect the corrupt and brutal in your ranks the attitude would change to respect rather than disgust at the actions of the few.

The Blue Line you are referring to is not as prominent as you make it out to be. It is the exception and not the norm and news coverage bears that out..

Prove it with a link. Otherwise it's just your opinion. When a LEO rats out a brother it is a career breaker and you know it. I have a lot contact with LEO as a contract trainer. I know the system.

Here's my link.

bluemustbetrue.com...

I am all in favor of recording traffic and "safety" (read fishing for fines) stops. Documenting excesses and offenses is the only method available to the populace to remove those predators that have been mistakenly given positions of power and authority over us.

However, let me also say that whenever you record an officer doing a good job, going out of his or her way to help the community, or otherwise protecting and serving in the way we all want them to do, you are honor-bound to broadcast that recording with every bit of vehemence and energy as the 'bad cop' videos.

We want to remove the bad guys but we want to keep the good guys. Celebrate and reward those who protect and serve the PEOPLE. Kick the others in the nuts.

Originally posted by bigfatfurrytexan
Fair enough...and i don't see you as being preachy.

FWIW, i just want to get a chance to break his nose. Nothing more. I am a "forgive and forget" kind of guy. But with his inappropriate actions he left my oldest son with a horrible memory of his dad failing him. I can never have a chance to repair that. I take my role of "dad" more seriously than anything else in life, and just thinking about that 1 time that I let my son down because of that cop makes "forgiving" impossible.

I don't take it out on all cops. i just keep my distance. that one instance taught me that it is better to just keep my distance than to rely on being a good citizen or a righteous man. Funny thing is, i sit on a few Boards of Directors with local law enforcement and attorneys/judges. I have to be around them all the time nowadays, and i have the reputation behind me that what happened 15 years ago would never happen today. Funny thing is, i am not a different person. I was no more righteous at that time than now.

I can understand your intentions toward the officer after giving some more information. I agree it is an absolute bitch of a time knowing a person in a position of authority got way with some he shouldnt have, and the reason for that is because of his profession. It sucks, all the way around, because of the psychological impact on you and your son, the resentment towards the officer, as well as your view towards other officers now. His actions just made your life miserable, and my job 10 times harder.

The other thing I will point out is the distance comment... To me this is a huge problem we seem to have (not singeling you out, but in gerneral) where people have a horrible experience with a Cop, at which point cops fall into that all encompassing "all cops are evil" mindset. When we run into the issue of the people not trusting the cops because of the actions of one, or a few depending on the size of the city, is the start of a bigger problem. Where before I could drive through a neighborhood and speak to residents, who would talk to me about concerns they had about kids in the neighborhood at odd hours, suspicious cars etc, turns into people just iugnoring me as a dirvei through neighborhoods.

Its bad enough being screwed over.. Its 20 times worse when its a cop who does it. All I can say is I understand, but not all of us are like that. I know actions speak louder than words, but for now its the best advice I can give. To me, one of the reasons I come into these forums, and specifically take an intrest in threads like these, is to understand the point of view that I dont always see as a cop.

I can show up at a call and rattle of statutes that have been violated and explain why they are violated, but sometimes its not enough, nor does it get through to the person I am dealing with. I am a firm beleiver in firm but fair, where a warning has more of an impact than writing a citation or taking someone to jail.

There are people who will always hate / non trusting of cops and thats fine. My only issue with that is when people want change and dont agree with what law enforcement does, refusal to even engage in a conversation can actually do more damage...

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
So because Q gave M a lipstick with a blade in it, in a James Bond movie, all lipstick should now be confiscated because the police saw the move and got nightmares.

You are missing the point... The items are real, and have been used to kill officers. The whole point of this thread was talking about people videotaping cops with cellphones etc. The reason we get nervous when people start pulling these items out is we dont know if A - its a real item or weapon and B - what is the intentions of the person we are dealing with?

When you get a chance read the warnings listed on your Iron. You will see a warning that says do not iron clothes while wearing them. Why? Because at some point in the past some idiot tried it, burned themselves, sued and won.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The problem is the training videos that are often made by private security firms indoctrinating the armed henchmen of the state into a cult of fear, where they are purposefully made to be frightened of the very people they are meant to protect and serve, to instead just serve a heirarchy that makes one law after another to impoverish and deminish the people in their person.

I actually think the problem is ignorance from paranoid people who see conpisracies in everything, and fail to exercise common sense, instead advocating an extreme over throw the evil henchmen argument. If thats your thing, thats your thing.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Excellent, excellent, you have established that the police 'imagine' they need to be afraid of lipstick!

Ignorance really is bliss apparently. Come do my job, and deal with some of the repeat offenders I deal with, and you will be amazed and what we pull off of them. Your notion that we are scared of lipstick is off.. As I said before, anything a person has can be used as a wepon, even if its a pen, or lipstick or even water. The problem comes in not because of the rpesence of those items, but the actions of the person whose possession they are in.

Your argument is the same as guns kill people - which is wrong.

People are the ones who have to manipulate those objects.

We are not scared of lipstick.. We are scared the person who has the lipstick container in their hand, who is refusing to show us those hands, who gets out of the car on a traffic stop without us requesting it, is the nightmare scenario.

Your trying to undermine the argument by ignoring the underlying threat.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Because someone made a movie telling them they should be, someone who got paid to make it by a out of control bankrupt government that no longer abides by the will of the people, and needs a layer of defense between them and the people in the form of armed henchmen they brainwash into fearing the people.

Well, can you tell me where I was brainwashed at then? While your at it, should I guess where your paranoid brainwashing comes from in terms of anyone attached to the government is evil, armed and a henchman?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Of course the state never misses an opportunity to brainwash the people to fear the henchmen either in that age old game of divide and conquer and use the masses to keep the masses themselves down.

And yet here you are, not brainwashed by the Government, so apparently your argument is FAIL because you arent affected.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
And to think you imagine you are being paid to give advice!

Oh boy.

edit on 20/2/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)

I see you have no idea what my job is.. I dont get paid to give advice.. I get paid to protect the citizens in my city from people who feel every aspect of Government is out to kill. I get paid to proitect and defend the constitution of the US and the State I reside in, My authority comes from the people, not the government itself.

While I agree there are issues that need to be addressed, I dont think we have come close to what you are advocating.

reply to post by whaaa


I am not going to engage in a tit for tat with you on this topic. As you state its my opinion, and I state its your opinion. Any info I rpovide will be dismissed by you, and will drag the topic off track. You beleive what you believe, and no amount of information I provide, or argument I make, will matter to you, nor will it change your mind on anything, and your posts are evident of that by your choice of terminology.

If you have anything to add on the OP, I will be more than happy to engage in that conversation.

Again.. Just as an example of why we dont care for people we are dealing with to have items in their hands, or in their pockets etc.

As you can see it looks normal... Remove the drugs from it, and replace it with a knife, razor blade, palm gun etc etc etc.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by whaaa

 

I am not going to engage in a tit for tat with you on this topic. As you state its my opinion, and I state its your opinion. Any info I rpovide will be dismissed by you,

That's not true. I would like to see any information that proves that the notion of a "Blue code" is overblown.
I realize it's a sensitive subject but one that needs to be addressed if the we/them attitudes of many LEOs is to be changed into "to serve and protect" the taxpayers that pay your salaries.

And perhaps a reading of this might be helpful....especially #4

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I think my perspective bears relevance here. I’ve been involved in or witnessed multiple confrontations with police over the last few years. They have all, without exception, involved immoral, and or illegal acts by the officers. Among other abuses, they have arrested me on non applicable charges, illegally destroyed recordings of my encounters with them (despite it being evidence), threatened me, bullied me, etc, etc. I’m not in jail, nor do I have a criminal record because nothing I have done has been illegal. What I have done to upset them so much is stand my legal ground. I have never engaged in a situation with an officer without knowing exactly what my legal rights are, I have never let them operate outside their legal boundaries, and I have never let them push me outside my legal boundaries. This has always maintained the justice of the situation.

In my experience police officers in general do not like someone who knows the law as well or better than they do and they will attempt to retaliate. They are poorly trained to deal with a situation where there is no mechanism for control and they attack on all fronts when someone intelligently questions their authority. Officers are very accustomed to people that say “oh, ok officer; you must know what the law is and you will explain it to me truthfully because you are a cop” just like we’ve been taught in school. In reality officers are trained to lie in order to accomplish control of the situation or to suit their agenda, and it is legal for them to do so. I've had officers threaten to charge me if I didn't comply with there instructions but when I've asked them what they would charge me with they were unable to answer because it was only a threat. As a side note: I have learned that if I want to truly know what the law is then I don't ask the police, I ask a lawyer that has experience litigating related cases. Lawyers go to school for years to learn the law. Police go to training for only a few months to learn everything they need to know to be a police officer.

My point is that in all of these situations (of which there have been more than thirty), none of them were handled morally by the officer/s and in fact the officers have never had a legal obligation in the first place to interact with me at all. This is a frightening statistic.

The blue shield culture compounds the problem. Durring one of my more memorable experiences, barely believable even to me, four officers (including the CO) defended the illegal actions of one of their own.

This is why I believe the system is flawed beyond most people’s perception and that there are far more bad apples than good. I believe, based on my experiences that most people have not been exposed to the reality of the situation. In a typical contact scenario, for example where an officer knocks on your door to say that they had a look around for the prowler you called about and to call again if you see anything suspicious, no one sees the “real” police officer, the officer that comes out of their shell when the situation falls outside their control box or provides an opportunity for abuse.

Here is where video recording becomes so vital. There must be public oversight, there must be accountability and the people must have a defense against a system that will always have a human element of imperfection to it. Presently the only tool available to the public for this is the video recording. If not for people taking the initiative incidents such as the Buddy Tavares case, or Oscar Grant case would have never seen justice.

I have seen some of the few recordings that have made it into the public and I have had many of my own experiences and I get this heart wrenching sensation every time I think about how many incidents go untold. I believe that until such time that there is a better solution, the people have a moral obligation to film and publicize police acts of misconduct.

We have let the sheep dogs become the wolves and if we are to live in a healthy society then that must be repaired. Learn the law, learn police procedure, know your rights. Do your part to teach police officers that they can not circumvent your civil liberties without repercussion.

reply to post by Xcathdra


Ok so we agree that it is very rare but anything can be a gun if it's hidden. Then this comes to mind. How long does it take an officer to determine wheter a cellphone is a cellphone or a cellphone gun? Or any other item for that matter. After such determination isn't the issue then resolved?