Koch Brothers Behind Wisconsin Effort To Kill Public Unions

reply to post by bossracer


Wow, the ignorance on the subject of unions is staggering.

How do you think government workers got all those sweet perks in the first place? UNIONS! The government (and certainly not the tax payers) does not go around handing out raises and retirement benefits because they're Santa Claus. The workers won all those things by collective bargaining. In fact, almost ALL work safety laws in the nation were enacted because of unions. Sick days, medical leave, workman's comp, retirement accounts-----those all became available to non-union workers because the unions demanded them and then the rest of the non-unionized companies/fields looked like a-holes if they didn't offer something comparable. The idea of "benefits" is because of unions. If you've ever called in sick without getting fired, thank a union.

reply to post by 00nunya00


Its the anti-union propaganda. But you are right. The reason that people have good treatment at all is because of unions. It is too bad people dont realize that, but a lot of money has gone into the public relations campaign against unions.

ok genius, how does one collectively bargain with an employer who makes no profit? Please illustrate for me how unions for the private sector improved benefits for govt workers? I example will be sufficient. In your grandfather's time, a govt job was the thing to get. They were hard to come by. People kept applying over and over again. They gained private sector experience to make themselves more attractive to the govt entity. They accepted a job for lower pay, knowing full well they would not make as much money. It is called "public service". And in return for a relatively short career in cushy govt service, these public sector employees received a pension for the rest of their life. This was one of the benefits. Many of these civil servants (note the name) left the govt in their 40's, and then went and got a union job. They worked that job for 20+ years and retired when Social Security kicked in. Not a bad gig.

But I don't see how any union then or now is applicable to govt service. Working for the govt, be it local, state or Fed, by definition is a sacrifice of wages. In return, the govt worker receives protections union workers can only dream about, and a FREE PENSION.

How can you compare a private, for profit company who is always trying to reduce costs in order to increase profits to a govt entity working at no profit and paying workers exclusively with taxpayer money?

Do you pay taxes? Do you know anyone with a govt job? Do you know what a FREE PENSION for life is worth? Have you ever heard of anyone being fired from a govt job for anything less than criminal behavior? Have you ever heard of a govt downsizing or exporting their work force to a foreign country? Are you so betrothed to the Unions that you can not see any other point of view except Union = good. Everything else = bad?

Last task. Where is the state of Wisconsin going to get the money to pay teachers more?

Originally posted by bossracer
ok genius, how does one collectively bargain with an employer who makes no profit?

They collectively bargain with an entity that would like to pay them as little as possible because, like all nonprofits, the more they save the more they can do. They are collectively bargaining with the taxpayers who would prefer to give them as little of their money as possible because the tax payers, like you, largely see civil service as a "privileged" position guaranteeing certain benefits. Have you checked where government worker pensions are at lately? Oh yeah---TONS of them went to line Bernie Madoff's pockets. TONS of them were heavily invested in the housing scheme. Those pensions are nearly GONE. "Guaranteed" pension my arse.

Have you ever heard of anyone being fired from a govt job for anything less than criminal behavior? Have you ever heard of a govt downsizing or exporting their work force to a foreign country? Are you so betrothed to the Unions that you can not see any other point of view except Union = good. Everything else = bad?

Absolutely not. The part of unions that makes it nearly impossible to fire workers----public or private-----is the part that ruins the practicality of unions. I think it's ridiculous to have to spend years and tons of money to go through some overcomplicated review process before a person can be fired. This is the biggest part of what's ruining our school system----not teacher pay (although merit-based pay would help), not admin (although that could be cut), not even testing (even though teachers should be tested as well). So yes, I agree----unions are not perfect and need some major changes. But that should in no way mean outlawing collective bargaining altogether. That would be tearing down the system that made our country a safe place to work.

Last task. Where is the state of Wisconsin going to get the money to pay teachers more?

How about:

1) Repeal Walker's $67 million in tax cuts for businesses that will not generate any jobs?
2) Repeal Walker's $25 million in stimulus spending for alleged "jobs creation" that Obama was crucified for?
3) Repeal Walker's $48 million in health savings account goodies that the people who put him in power just love?
4) ACTUALLY ANSWER THE DEMOCRATIC STATE SENATORS' CALLS AND NEGOTIATE ON PENSION AND BENEFIT CUTS LIKE THE UNIONS SAID THEY WANTED TO?????????

reply to post by bossracer

"Many of these civil servants (note the name) left the govt in their 40's, and then went and got a union job. They worked that job for 20+ years and retired when Social Security kicked in."

Other than anecdotal evidence to support a faulty talking point, I am not sure what bearing it has on the discussion today. This was at the same time the US manufacturing sector led the world and we had a trade surplus. Union influence was also quite a bit higher too.

But I don't see how any union then or now is applicable to govt service. Working for the govt, be it local, state or Fed, by definition is a sacrifice of wages.

If we were to turn this around and use Wall Street’s reasoning, how does a government hire anybody worth a damn then? In Wisconsin they already make 11% less than their counterparts in the private sector. What should they make? Who do you want educating your children? They are already in the lower half of teachers pay nationwide. As a matter of fact, Wisconsin teachers’ salaries start 2nd from dead last nationwide. They have already agreed to the financial aspect of the bill. They are arguing over the collective bargaining part. However at this point, what has that bargaining got them beside slowing down the descent down the toilet?

Are you so betrothed to the Unions that you can not see any other point of view except Union = good. Everything else = bad?

The Unions can be and have been part Mafioso. Agreed. However, they serve, albeit in an ever diminishing capacity, as a buffer between the dude with the job and the corporate Mafiosos running our so called economy. Those multinationals have already demonstrated their intent beyond a shadow of a doubt. They do not give a damn about the dude with the job here in the states. They have zero qualms about sending the jobs over seas or hiring illegals which is nothing more than poor man's outsourcing.

Those who cry that public sector jobs do not need some form of protection need to get up to speed on the situation. Multinationals, the same guys who killed our manufacturing sector, want nothing more than to get their hands on the cash payed to public sector workers through contractors. That is the one and only reason for these attacks against the unions. Period. Don't believe it?

I am in the military. I have been overseas numerous times. There are more contractors there than Soldiers. They make incredible amounts of money. Your taxpayer dollars as a matter of fact. The same voices crying for a downsizing of government are readily at hand with a private contract to do the same job. I have yet to see ONE example of a job being done cheaper than by a Soldier. NOT ONE. It is the latest bowl of money to plunder.

The state jobs in Wisconsin fall into the same category. Once the union is gone, it's fair game. While I am not a fan of the union, I am less of a fan of the corporate plunders running a muck.

HOLY C***!!!!

Just after I post my wild conspiracy theory, well, not so wild, I find this:

www.democraticunderground.com...

Hidden in the bill causing so much uproar is the sale of Wisconsin's power plants to the Koch Brothers. No bids required. Pennies on the dollar.

I suppose the big protests over teachers unions has little to do with the truth.

Guys like that here in Quebec, where unions are really powerful,
Would find himself dead in a mater of hours.

reply to post by ABNARTY


Unreal. The whole aspect of Walker not being willing to bargain or even talk to Democratic senators about compromise makes sooooo much more sense now. I wondered how he could be so stupid as to be unwilling to negotiate for one second----the very thing the right lambasted the left-controlled congress for allegedly doing. It's political poison for even the strongest of candidates-----Americans at least try to talk about a compromise, or pretend to anyways. Not even a pretense of compromise here.

Originally posted by ABNARTY


Other than anecdotal evidence to support a faulty talking point, I am not sure what bearing it has on the discussion today. This was at the same time the US manufacturing sector led the world and we had a trade surplus. Union influence was also quite a bit higher too.

no time to argue more talking points, but this one is bunk. US STILL leads the world in manufacturing. Check it out.

I still don't know what the teachers union thinks they are going to collectively bargain for. There is nothing left. If they lost their pensions in the stock market, that is no fault of the employer, public or private. I moved 100% of my retirement account to secure govt investments. I only earned 2%. But didn't learn a penny. All I did was look at my statement every month, and used 3 consecutive months of negative returns as a trigger. It is not rocket science.

I'd like to see a source for the power plants being sold to the K brothers for pennies on the dollar.

I did see a Huffington post piece with a cut and paste of a section of the bill. This quoted section said the state could sell the plants through a no bid sale. It sounds like a set up for a payback. Which is exactly what Dems do when in office. Both parties need to stop this kind of crap, and be more accountable to the people. No doubt.

But I don't see where the plants have been sold.

edit on 22/202/11 by bossracer because: added info

reply to post by bossracer


You have your head in the sand, my friend. I outlined for you EXACTLY what Wisconsin could do to solve their made-up "budget crisis" and you didn't even reply to my post------because you got pwned. How about respond to ANY of the logic you've been presented with here?

ETA: and you obviously have absolutely no clue how pensions work, how they are managed and how many people lost everything before YOUR 401k was affected and before you even had a clue there was a problem.

reply to post by 00nunya00


some people are like little kids where they say that everything is wrong and needs to be fixed and then they never offer any suggestion or any solution to the problem. If you are going to mention that things need change then brainstorm a solution on even a remote idea of how it may be fixed!

I will confess that I do not know much about the Koch Bros. but all of this Anti-corporation spillage is just that spillage. The Unions did have their place and did contribute to the American workers benefit,HOWEVER they are not the sole source of all that is good for workers. They are in fact largely responsible for the loss of American manufacturing base. Why would I pay a Union worker $60.00 an hour when I can pay a Mexican worker $15.00?
Unions seem to have the mistaken belief that the jobs BELONG to them. I am not opposed to anyone collectively doing anything. What is the major problem with Unions is the same problem with Government, MONOPOLY. I have worked in a Union and yes the pay was great and the benefits fantastic. It was however a very hostile environment. What I found was that long time Union goons were very quick to preach collectiveness when it came time for contracts but were very quick to be all about "whats mine" when it came time for the RIF!
I currently work for a non union corporation and it is hands down a better environment. Yes we do stupid things but that is by and large due to our customer being the Government.

To correct those who get their news from Anti-Corp sources

The State of Wisconson does indeed have a budget shortfall of at least $134 million. This does nto include the $200 million owed to the state’s patient compensation fund, illegally raided by former Gov. Jim Doyle.

The tax cuts Walker has put into place are not set to take effect until the next year and are thus not part of the shortfall.


The average teacher in Wisconsin pays 1% of their pension. The average private sector worker pays 5%.

reply to post by fordrew


Oh , I just love the way Republicans resort to name calling when they also have no clue,
other than to blame the working class for all of the debt problems
( mostly incurred through the Bush era) or maybe they do have a clue,
More power to the rich while the middle class becomes slave labor!
capitalism at it's finest ( right ,Republican)

reply to post by bossracer


To answer your point about the US leading manufacturing, there was a conjunction in the sentence, "and". As in '...and had a trade surplus...', we sold more than we bought.

I agree with the unions negotiating for scraps, there is not much left to ask for.

The Koch Bros are not going to take out an add stating their intent. Since it is part of the bill still in limbo, how could anyone buy it yet? It is currently not for sale. Yet. Who else is in a position to buy them? The Koch Bros are the second largest private company in the US and that is what they do. They funded the Governor's election. It does not take too much to connect the dots. For those who disagree, then explain to me why selling power plants is in a bill concerning teacher benefits?

Koch brothers quietly open lobbying office in downtown Madison

This is sick and these people need to be stopped now. They really want to "go for the kill".

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


And the reason why Britain won the Battle of Britain was because of the Supermarine Spitfire.

Doesn't mean that they are still effective

Originally posted by ABNARTY
HOLY C***!!!!

Just after I post my wild conspiracy theory, well, not so wild, I find this:

www.democraticunderground.com...

Hidden in the bill causing so much uproar is the sale of Wisconsin's power plants to the Koch Brothers. No bids required. Pennies on the dollar.

I suppose the big protests over teachers unions has little to do with the truth.

Alright!

Way to post LIES!


Deny Ignorance FTL.

This place is like reddit. Lots of emotions and talking points. And some name calling.

00nunya00 says to get rid of about 150 million in evil Gov Walker's budget is an answer to my original question. 150 million is chump change in this puzzle. It might help. But it is no solution to the wages and benefits that have been increased well out of proportion to the teachers "product".

And then he says the Dems and the union want to negotiate. I read that was done. The only sticky wicket left is the bargaining right.

My pwned question still stands. "How do you get more benefits for public sector employees when the local, state and Fed govts are spending more than they take in?"

What do the unions gain by falling on their sword over the right to bargain when the taxpayers have nothing left to bargain with.

When a private sector company makes big profits, it seems completely reasonable to me (even accounting for my staggering ignorance) for the unions to petition for some of those profits to trickle down to the workers who made the product. Can we agree on this? or do we need to continue name calling?

But in the case of a public sector union, I stand by my position there is no way to keep giving them more pay and benefits when the "company" is a government entity. There is no profit to share. Using the logic that the public sector employees should receive enhanced pay and benefits because the private sector union workers are makes no sense. Will these same public sector workers take a pay and benefits reduction when the private sector becomes un-profitable? Of course not.

Public sector unions have a limited place in keeping the work environment appropriate. I have no issue with that.

Has anyone factored in the dismal performance of the WI school teachers? They have received the best compensation for the poorest performing graduates, when compared to other midwest states. Fact.

How did you reach the conclusion I know nothing about pensions? Left field man. I have a pension. Like ABNARTY, I'm in the military. I am pension eligible now. And no union ever helped me. I accepted the lower pay in exchange for many benefits. One of which was a zero cost pension at the end of service.

Take this topic away from the Republicans and Democrats. They are so similar as to be the same. There are almost no real differences in the politicians. They are mostly crooked, greedy, and consumed by a lust for power. They are in the pockets of special interest groups. The Dems pockets are more heavily lined with taxpayer funded union money. The Repubs pockets are more heavily lined with corporate donations. Which one is worse? WGARA. They are both bad.

Regardless who is in power, all the states have to balance their budgets. They can't print money. They can only collect taxes. Most states are now obligated to pay out much more than they can possibly take in. What is a real fix?

I heard on the radio today from a former state Gov that over 90% of states budgets are comprised of: Education, Medication, and Incarceration. If you eliminate 100% of all state expenditures not related to those three, you can reduce the budget by less than 10%. I double checked that number here: www.ofm.wa.gov... and it is not far off. Washington state has a 63B dollar budget. Over 50B of it is the top 3.

The states are going to have to find a way to reduce spending by about 20-30 percent. And they are going to have to raise taxes. Should WI school teachers really be rewarded so handsomely? And why has the budget gone up so much. In 2003, the WI budget was just a tad over half what it is today. The spending is out of control. WI's 70 BILLION dollar budget really needs to be cut down to 40 Billion. 150 Million is nothing.

And I did say I was short of time, BTW.

Originally posted by Lemon.Fresh

Originally posted by ABNARTY
HOLY C***!!!!

Just after I post my wild conspiracy theory, well, not so wild, I find this:

www.democraticunderground.com...

Hidden in the bill causing so much uproar is the sale of Wisconsin's power plants to the Koch Brothers. No bids required. Pennies on the dollar.

I suppose the big protests over teachers unions has little to do with the truth.

AMEN to that! Especially when one considers that the state of Wisconsin doesn't own ANY power plants.

Alright!

Way to post LIES!


Deny Ignorance FTL.

reply to post by SirMike


I am still waiting for the proof that the sales of these plants will go straight to Koch.

Just more talking points from Daily Kos, amplified verbatim throughout Google.