12 Things You Need to Know About the Uprising in Wisconsin

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posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 12:56 PM
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reply to post by CuriousObserver
 


No no, you have it all wrong - haven't you been watching Fox "news"? These aren't teacher's they're union thugs.




posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by OMEGAFINN
 


Thanks for the input. Although, the teaching profession is only a part of the issue in Wisconsin. As I posted earlier, I think it's about the working class as a whole. That's the big picture.

We can debate the particular profession of public school teacher all day. It's a good idea for a new thread actually. But I'll say a couple things.

I believe the entire educational system needs to be reformed. The educational system needs to teach kids, from the earliest levels through college, how to be critical thinkers. That requires a balance of the left and right brain. Right now it is all about the left brain. It's all about memorization and compliance. We only develop the left brain, the right brain is neglected and it's EXACTLY why Americans are so easily persuaded. Corporations love when we are easily persuaded.

Part of the reform would also be to raise hiring standards on teachers. As well as much better pay and benefits. This would put more emphasis on the teachers education and critical thinking skills. The problem now is that the teachers are a product of the same left brain dominant system. No offense, but it's the blind leading the blind.

Of course to get there, we would need to make education a much bigger priority than it is now. I'm talking to the level of military priority. And of course to get there, we would need to get special interests out of education, as well as gaining public support. And to get there, corporations will have to stop relying on propaganda to sell their products. And unfortunately, we are a long, long way away from that.

The only way we can get there is if the working class puts their foot down like no other time in our history!



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


Thirty years for Egyptians to confront it. Almost thirty years for the Brazilians, though arguably a segment of their society still lives with it.

Once the "endgame" occurs, it will not be overnight for the fix to happen. It will be a large, arduous process of secret police, oppression, curfew, neglect for human rights and so on.

A lot of people on here have two stances on the mounting oppression here in the US.

1. Head for the hills with canned food and survival gear.
2. Get excited for the awakening of the American people!

The true stance to take would be:

3. Well, there goes "America" for most people. You'll need survival gear to hide out, as a political dissident and most people will wake up but be totally neutered instantly (a combo of the first two). Now wait thirty years til a generation becomes too restless and self-educated.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:27 PM
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"Wisconsin was on track to have a budget surplus!" FALSE

newsbusters.org...

Proven untrue


Well, that's not what Politifact found:

Our conclusion: Maddow and the others are wrong.

There is, indeed, a projected deficit that required attention, and Walker and GOP lawmakers did not create it. [...]

The confusion, it appears, stems from a section in [Director of the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau Robert] Lang’s memo that -- read on its own -- does project a $121 million surplus in the state’s general fund as of June 30, 2011.

But the remainder of the routine memo -- consider it the fine print -- outlines $258 million in unpaid bills or expected shortfalls in programs such as Medicaid services for the needy ($174 million alone), the public defender’s office and corrections. Additionally, the state owes Minnesota $58.7 million under a discontinued tax reciprocity deal.

The result, by our math and Lang’s, is the $137 million shortfall.

It would be closer to the $340 million figure if the figure included the $200 million owed to the state’s patient compensation fund, a debt courts have declared resulted from an illegal raid on the fund under former Gov. Jim Doyle.

A court ruling is pending in that matter, so the money might not have to be transferred until next budget year.

Read more: newsbusters.org...


Also, Politifact leans left for those who would scream, "Right-wing propaganda!"
edit on 20-2-2011 by Bugman82 because: Adding a fact



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by David9176
 


Yeah, we're just a bunch of morons who can't think for ourselves. We must all watch the news and take it for gospel.

Heavens forbid that some of us look at the facts for ourselves, and conclude that the modern Union is just an extortion racket to get lazy factory-trained assembly-line workers $100 an hour in pay and benefits. When truly skilled and apprenticed workers typically only charge $60.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by apacheman
 


Good post! As one that has run my own business for 35 years, and contract my services to others, I see this all the time, Ferrari sales were up last year 20% and are climbing while we go after a few bucks from the heart of the working class. The republicans give tax breaks to business which can be justified in many cases to generate jobs, but that is no excuse not to tax the massive profits of those setting behind a desk raking in millions trading. Those guys are not the job creators, it is us small guys who hire the vast majority of your neighbors. I say it is time to put a high tax on short trades, computer investment, all those quick profit money venues, and if anything, lower them on those that invest in growing business and creating real jobs, products, and and real value in this country. Those that make millions in life do so because of benefit of birth and opportunity and those that make it here do so because of this great country exist and makes it possible for them. So in my view, they owe it to humanity and our society to give back to betterment of that society. There must be a balance between the good for the one and the good for all for society to advance and better itself. Republicans are anti evolution in more ways than one.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by Byteman
reply to post by David9176
 


Yeah, we're just a bunch of morons who can't think for ourselves. We must all watch the news and take it for gospel.

Heavens forbid that some of us look at the facts for ourselves, and conclude that the modern Union is just an extortion racket to get lazy factory-trained assembly-line workers $100 an hour in pay and benefits. When truly skilled and apprenticed workers typically only charge $60.


You said it, we didn't! Interesting that you pick out $100 an hour but my daughter works as a top notch school and doesn't make near that much but regardless, you try doing that job. I wouldn't touch the profession for what it pays. Even at a hundred an hour, that just doesn't sound so bad to me, I sell my services for $400 an hour, the same as my expensive attorney charges me for work done. I think you should bitch about the guys making a thousand an hour or ten thousand, thirty thousand an hour. But no, they work hard and deserve every dime, we can't tax them, they create the jobs. Right! We have to tax some of us and all of us a at some rate if we want to go to war, build roads, and take care of the sick and old. Some choose to lay that burden on the masses, the working class so the elites can be oligarchs and add to their collection of Ferrari's. This is about who carries the tax burden and who's job is worth what. I hate writing a check to the IRS as much as anyone but I don't fault the working class fighting for a better more secure life and don't mind paying my fair share as long as everyone else does. Currently that is not the case! The more you make from your blessed life in this country, the more you owe in supporting this country.
edit on 20-2-2011 by Pappie54 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 01:52 PM
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Personally, I see argument on a false premise.
Unions are asking for over the top benifits and are upset that they aren't getting it.

For those that are pro-union, bully for you. Get as much as you can for as little as you give.

When the system runs dry, however, it'll be the folks that have relied on themselves that'll make it.

You union folks will be begging us for food and shelter when all is sid and done.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:00 PM
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I disagree with your assessment. I don't believe either party is partial to business and I don't believe either party has a monopoly on elitism. If you look at some of the riches men, they are by and large, democrats. George Soros, the Rockerfellers,

Big business typically swings in whatever direction will benefit them most. Google is frequently associated with the democrats as is Bill Gates. If you do any research, you will find that the wealth in congress and the senate swings both ways but frequently goes in favor of the democrats. Wall Street is typically sided with democrats as well.

If you do a simple, cursory search you will find that the perpetuated myth that republicans/conservatives are the people of money, is just that...a myth.

Furthermore, if you're going to use Wisconsin as a basis for your conclusion, lets bring Detroit into the picture. The population has been reduced by nearly 50% in the last 10 years, hundreds of thousands of jobs have been lost, home value has plummeted to the point where they are bulldozing them over and the state as well as the city of Detroit have been run by democrats for the last 8 years. It is a disaster created by liberal policies, corruption and unions. So, if we're going to play the "anecdotal evidence" game, well, I say "bring it". Next stop, California.
edit on 20-2-2011 by General.Lee because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:09 PM
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In basic terms the reason so many jobs and businesses have outsourced to other countries is quite simple for any human being to understand. We'll start with China. China can produce goods so much cheaper than businesses in the United States because:

1. China doesn't have the pollution regulations that we have.
2. China doesn't have the labor regulations that we have.

Regulations cost businesses money. It makes the difference in a $20 toaster and $50 toaster. Inherently, for United States business to compete they have to outsource their work and factories since goods overseas can be produced so much more cheaply. So, if the United States is ever going to be able to compete in industry ever again we either need Chinese regulations to come in line with ours, we need to lower regulations, or tariffs must be placed on Chinese goods to match the cost to produce difference.

Unions artificially inflate wages. They have enormous political muscle that they can flex to get their way. maciverinstitute.com... (Yes, Wisconsin school teachers average salary and benefits combine for a total average package of over $100,000.00) This is the result of political manhandling and government salaries. These wages must come into line.

You cry, "Tax the rich!" This mantra simply does nothing but hurt business in the United States that is in desperate state already due to over regulation, the cry for fair wages, and no tariffs on foreign goods.

The left cries for fair wages and pollution controls. Where are the cries for tariffs on goods produced in China with sweatshops and pollutant factories? Where is their morality and convictions when they purchase Chinese goods produced in the said manner? The hypocrisy is glaring.

-I say disband the department of education and work to privatize education so competition can determine salaries and teachers can be paid based on performance (In the article above it is more than obvious our education system is failing).
-I say cry out against the injustice of allowing Chinese and other countries' goods to be produced unethically and sold without consequences within the United States.
-I say place tariffs on goods produced without fair labor and pollution controls.

Made in China, Made in India, Made in Thailand, Made in Japan, Made in Korea, Made in ........... not the USA.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by ClintK
 

When you read the OP, jump to reply without reading the rest of the thread, sometimes you miss little details, such as the truth.


BTW, right wing people are going to completely ignore this quote from the article:


"At the beginning of this year, the state was on course to end 2011 with a budget surplus of $120 million. As Ezra Klein explained, newly elected GOP Governor Scott Walker then " signed two business tax breaks and a conservative health-care policy experiment that lowers overall tax revenues."

Why? Because the American right wing has become dishonest.


If you'd read about 2 posts above yours, youd've notice that it was Klein and Maddow who were dishonest here. Klein has retracted his statement:

Update: I've been persuaded that the surplus-to-deficit picture is more complicated that I initially understood.
...
The $130 million deficit now projected for 2011 isn't the fault of the tax breaks passed during Walker's special session ... .

www.voices.washingtonpost.com...

Turns out Politifact has determined that the deficit could be as high as $340,000,000 WITHOUT the Governor's attempts to draw and retain new business in the 2011-2013 budget.
www.politifact.com...

Want to go back and try again for the facts or do you just want to do what the rest of the progressive lackeys here do, ignore the truth?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

deny ignorance
jw



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:15 PM
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reply to post by OMEGAFINN
 


Great post! And welcome!



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:23 PM
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This I know per the Dept. of Job and Family Services: Cost of educating a child in 1980, in my county, was just over $1400.00/pupil/year. Today it is just over $8400.00/pupil/year. Yes inflation is higher, but if you plug the numbers into an inflation calculator, the $1400.00 goes to $3600.00, far short of the $8400.00 currently. On top of that, my county had a graduation rate of 77.4% in 1980 compared to 55.2% in 2009. Yes there is a problem.

I do not doubt with what this thread is saying. Not for a minute. But, should we not be more focused on what is supposed to be being accomplished here, which is educating our children? I expect more from the educational system than what I am currently getting. If I have to spend more money for children to get educated, than I expect children a better education, yet the numbers say that that is not what is happening. But the teachers sure are living better lives than they were in 1980, I bet.

I have worked for a couple of unions in my career. They do have lots of problems with promoting laziness. The cost from this is just passed on to the consumer though, so no one really addresses it. I can say though, that when a company turns their guns towards someone that they wish to get rid of, it happens whether it is a union company or not. I have seen it first hand.

I am a business owner now and for those on here that think that all business owners are rich, greedy, non caring indivuduals, you are wrong. I am not going into my personal situation, but I will say that I have a 2000 model vehicle and have not taken a vacation since I have started the business in 2005. I have risked everything that I have for my business and it is my neck on the line as far as whether it is successful or if it fails, so forgive me if I tend to want to reserve the right to make all the final decisions. If you want that ability, please feel free to go out and take the risk of starting your own business. Until then, please stop judging!

Just my 2 cents.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by General.Lee
I disagree with your assessment. I don't believe either party is partial to business and I don't believe either party has a monopoly on elitism. If you look at some of the riches men, they are by and large, democrats. George Soros, the Rockerfellers,

Big business typically swings in whatever direction will benefit them most. Google is frequently associated with the democrats as is Bill Gates. If you do any research, you will find that the wealth in congress and the senate swings both ways but frequently goes in favor of the democrats. Wall Street is typically sided with democrats as well.

If you do a simple, cursory search you will find that the perpetuated myth that republicans/conservatives are the people of money, is just that...a myth.

Furthermore, if you're going to use Wisconsin as a basis for your conclusion, lets bring Detroit into the picture. The population has been reduced by nearly 50% in the last 10 years, hundreds of thousands of jobs have been lost, home value has plummeted to the point where they are bulldozing them over and the state as well as the city of Detroit have been run by democrats for the last 8 years. It is a disaster created by liberal policies, corruption and unions. So, if we're going to play the "anecdotal evidence" game, well, I say "bring it". Next stop, California.
edit on 20-2-2011 by General.Lee because: (no reason given)


really??? for detroit,. it had nothing to do with corporations moving their factories to mexico with GATT and NAFTA trade agreement help, written primarily by the BUSINESS ROUND TABLE (a small cauldron of business CEO's that meet with the president in washington)???? it's those evil democrats and liberals that picked up and moved the jobs away....simple question for you...who has benefited the most financially in america?
the executives and shareholders of corporations?...or the average wage earner?....i don't even know why conservatives argue against the average wage earner at every turn...they are simply unpatriotic and un-american, they want america to turn into another 3rd-world country, with a few rich at the top, with the rest of us just barely surviving.
edit on 20-2-2011 by jimmyx because: could not edit content in original post



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:46 PM
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reply to post by CuriousObserver
 

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but don't workers give up part of their pay in hopes that the money will go to a retirement fund, isn't that money something that they already earned and saved?


The state employees in this case pay ZERO to their retirement, it is funded 100% by the state. They pay very little, compared to the private sector, for health care and disability insurance.

They are being asked to pay a small portion and to keep union leadership out of future negotiations on these issues.(Think about it, union members, paid by the state, negotiating with officials THEY can support or oppose with union donations next election.)
edit on 20-2-2011 by jdub297 because: quote



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by MRuss

*UNIONS are largely responsible for the outsourcing of labor to foreign countries.

*Unions crippled the auto industry with exorbitant wages, benefits and self-serving union bosses.

*It is difficult to fire incompetent workers and reward ones who perform exceptionally well. This can distort incentives in the labor market.

*Unions have declined largely because they have become less relevant in a global economy...

*Unions have negotiated benefits in excess of company profits so much so that the airlines have had to declare bankruptcy and divest themselves of their pension obligations in order to stay in business.

*Unions, through these ridiculously high wages for unskilled labor, exacerbate the demand for illegal alien labor.



MRuss, I didn't quote you in entirety, but I think you made some legitimate points that the thread seems to be ignoring, so far.

Here's the problem with making seemingly "true" statements, in a vacuum: Context is ignored.

What is the relevant context here? Over the past few decades, as this issue has developed, what has been going on in the background?

Well, we have a huge shift in immigration laws in the 1960's, along with a cultural shift, along with a civil rights movement. Hmmm. Seems like a lot. The '70's saw this chaos multiply, and trash the economy, as oil began to be used as the weapon of choice against the world. And the Wall came crashing down in the '80's. A major shift in the international environment, leading to an "opening of the marketplace", leading to what we call "globalization" today.

Obviously, we would have a very skewed vision of the world if we chose to lay most negative American business changes, solely at the feet of labor unions, wouldn't you think?

Are unions "less relevant" in a global economy? Well sure they are, but wouldn't it be nice if someone realized that the "global economy" isn't such a Utopia, especially now that we have the benefit of seeing how it's playing out? Isn't there a bigger question here?

Is there a "demand" for illegal alien labor? Of course! Is it really the fault of labor unions, or could it be that no one wants to deal with the "impossible" border? Going deeper, could the fact that US and other intelligence agencies, who fund much of their operations through pushing drugs, could this be one of the reasons that Mexico can never quite get out from under drug-lord oppression? "If" Mexico could somehow stop this massive subversion, would their economy finally improve, perhaps enough to reduce the incentive to go anywhere they can earn money, since the opportunities aren't exactly as available in their own nation, still officially considered in"revolution" by the State Dept.?

OR, could it be that unions are in fact a very bad thing? Well, YES, they could be, but for what reasons exactly? Could it be more because organized crime has traditionally been given this turf to control? Does not the Mafia work hand-in-glove with the CIA?

To clear the air, lest I be accused of being too this, or too that, I personally see more harm than good to workers from unions. And it does introduce another level of "power" (which is always abused) into the already difficult environment.

HOWEVER, "if" there were no unions, things would almost certainly get very bad for for the "slave class".

Allow me a digression here to explain. Since nothing is occurring in a vacuum, this is yet one more element we must introduce to get a better handle on this situation.

There IS a slave class, I realize that it sounds inflammatory, but at least here I highly approve of the OP's use of the term.

Most people understand that there are peoples in other nations, such as China, and India, who probably should be considered "slaves", more or less, considering their so-called "pay", and inability to find an alternative. And yet, we not only have such a class in most of the developed nations, but some of these nations actually have policies in place to ensure that these slaves can seldom rise higher, generation, after generation.

In the USA, a severely class-segregated public school system plays an important role in keeping people "in their place". Theoretically, the black person from Harlem has the same opportunity as the white person living in Manhattan, who both may attend their local public schools. But as we know, one of these two is far more likely to end up flipping burgers, or sweeping floors. Some of this may be cultural, I wouldn't want to derail the thread with all that, but the point is that the way things are set up now, we aren't likely to run out of burger flippers any time soon.

These "economically disadvantaged" people still must eat, and they are therefore always going to be easy prey for those who can literally "get away" with paying them as little as possible.

SO, economically speaking, we have supply (of low paid workers), and demand (companies who must obey the economic imperative to make a profit).

These are indisputable facts, IMHO. And yet, when someone points out that 80% of people who work at Walmart are on government assistance, food stamps, etc., no one seems to make the connection that Walmart is benefiting from that welfare! Is this even close to true "capitalism"?

Earlier I mentioned that things would get worse for this slave class, without unions, in spite of the fact that corrupt mafia infested unions are mostly bad.

"If" this constructive threat of an added layer of cost and complexity did not exist, then there would be very little to check an abuse that would eventually tend to go just as far as it does in nations like India, and China, make no mistake. But as it is, this "threat" is there, and as a result, unions perform this function for society, even when they have failed to measure up to their original intent.

In this environment, the luckiest workers are the ones who pay no dues, and yet still benefit from higher unskilled wages that would never have been offered, if the labor market hadn't been forced to factor-in the "competition", the companies who have unions to deal with.

Sorry for such a long reply, but this issue is far from being as simple as pointing fingers at republicrats.

JR



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by shermanoaks
 
The problem that the governor recognized is productivity and return on taxpayers' "investments" in government institutions, such as schools. Teachers and parents in this thread have shown that taxpayers are NOT getting their money's worth under the present 'state' of affairs.

The unions aren't being asked to disband, or to suffer extensive wage cuts relative to the private sector. Here, as in other states, unions have the option of making concessions for the benefit of everyone, or sticking tight and letting a few thousand without seniority or tenure take the hit. They've made their positions clear.

As a non-wealthy businessman watching cash flow and ROI, are you willing to trade your non-unionized employees, if any, for a unionized work force?



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 03:13 PM
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The fact that the Democrats left the state rather than act responsibly says it all. Let us erase all debts for every American, divide up all homes in the country worth more than $500,000.00 and make them into vacation homes for the poor and middle class. That would be a good start.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 03:14 PM
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Since the McIver Institute is being quoted a lot here, I thought I'd find out who they are and their agenda.

Here it is, judge for yourself:

www.onewisconsinnow.org...


Be warned: The MacIver Institute is a not a news service.

It is not a member of the traditional media. It is a right wing educational “charitable” organization and it is gathering footage to advance its conservative, anti-worker agenda.

Talking to the MacIver Institute is abetting the conservative movement in its efforts to ensure progressive values and issues are not a part of the public policy debate. MacIver has spent considerable time criticizing the 2009-11 state budget, the Recovery Act, reforming the health insurance industry and stopping global climate change. MacIver is financed and run by leading conservatives, many with long ties to the Republican Party. Speaking on camera with the MacIver Institute helps the conservative movement by giving legitimacy to its faux “reporting,” as its “interviews” are regularly posted on the MacIver website.

WHO IS THE MACIVER INSTITUTE

The MacIver Institute is a conservative, pro-corporate organization founded in 2009 to advance conservative ideas and values. Its top staff is long-time Republican campaign strategists and its board of directors includes leading Republicans, most notably Mark Block, the head of Americans for Prosperity-WI, Fred Lubar, deep-pocketed Republican donor and Jim Troupis, lawyer to leading Republicans such as Assembly Speaker Scott Jensen and ethically-challenged Supreme Court Justices Mike Gableman and Annette Ziegler.

Staff:

MacIver’s top staffers include both the former Chief of Staff to Scott Jensen and former GOP state senate caucus head and campaign strategist for top Republicans including Attorney General JB Van Hollen.

Jensen Ties: Initially, MacIver attempted to distance itself from Jensen, stating through a spokesperson that the former Assembly Speaker has no “formal role” with the organization. An investigation by Eye On Wisconsin's Cory Liebmann revealed that the properties of several initial communications from MacIver included the electronic imprint of Scott Jensen. Milwaukee Magazine also talked with Jensen about his involvement and after a preliminary denial, the reporter wrote “Later, Jensen amended that he is a consultant and his ‘main client’ is Alliance for School Choices.” [Milwaukee Magazine.com, 3/10/09]

MACIVER METHODS
MacIver has begun dispatching a new staffer, former Rock County television reporter Bill Osmulski, to events to film events and create conservative propaganda pieces as “news reports.” These “reports” are put onto the MacIver website and available for public consumption.

ISSUE TARGETS
MacIver hews to the standard conservative lines and its talking points are echoed in the arguments of the state’s leading Republican elected officials. It has referred to the 2009-11 state budget as “$12.8 billion of bad” and “driven by politics and devoid of principle,” has called health insurance reforms at the federal level “budget busting” and has criticized cap and trade. Its top target though, has been the federal Recovery Act and the use of those funds by the state legislature. In repeated postings on its website, MacIver attempts to make the case the legislature and the federal government failed in efforts to solve the economic crisis created by the failed policies of the Bush administration and that the legislature and federal government have failed to create much-needed jobs. [MacIver Institute Website]

CREDIBILITY
Immediately after it hired its phony news “reporter,” MacIver was plunged into controversy when it was confirmed the MacIver staffer had gotten an interview with two elected officials by allowing the two elected officials “to think he was just interviewing the two politicians for a local television station, all three men confirmed...” [Wisconsin State Journal, 9/5/09]

CONSIDERATIONS
One Wisconsin Now supports healthy and vibrant public policy discussions and this rightfully requires public officials to regularly talk with the media. This does not apply to the MacIver Institute, an ideologically-driven organization, created to advance a policy agenda, in this case an ultra-conservative one.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by backinblack
 


lol... "Save are teachers". Yes we need to throw more money to education! The war on education. Are (sic and a joke) workers are only smart enough to pull the levers and dumb enough not to know why. This is by design and no matter how much money is thrown (wasted) at education, nothing will improve.

Wake up America. The perpetual (Why? We could win all of them today, but "they" do not want victory. There is no profit in victory. Hence perpetual wars).

The war on "terror", drugs, immigration, porn, education, poverty, etc.

Watch this brief video and maybe you'll get it: www.youtube.com...





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