The solution to the "palesitinian problem"

In 1917, when britain was mandated by the league of nations with establishing Palestine as a Jewish national home, it included ALL of present day Jordan and Israel. This is seldom known, but it is true. In 1922 The british violated the terms of the mandate and broke 75% of Palestine and gave it to the Saudi emir and thus created the trans-Jordan. One of the excuses behind this blatant defiance of the Balfour Declaration was the understanding that any displaced arabs in western palestine would be relocated to the 75% of Palestine that was taken away from the Jews.

reply to post by dontreally


Where is the solution? And I thought it was the other way around. The Jews (Rather Israelis) took and are still taking the Palestinians land.

Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Intresting. Some context..

The preamble of the mandate declared:

Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

In March 1930 Lord Passfield, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, had authored a Cabinet Paper[61] which said:

In the Balfour Declaration there is no suggestion that the Jews should be accorded a special or favoured position in Palestine as compared with the Arab inhabitants of the country, or that the claims of Palestinians to enjoy self-government (subject to the rendering of administrative advice and assistance by a Mandatory as foreshadowed in Article XXII of the Covenant) should be curtailed in order to facilitate the establishment in Palestine of a National Home for the Jewish people." ... Zionist leaders have not concealed and do not conceal their opposition to the grant of any measure of self-government to the people of Palestine either now or for many years to come. Some of them even go so far as to claim that that provision of Article 2 of the Mandate constitutes a bar to compliance with the demand of the Arabs for any measure of self-government. In view of the provisions of Article XXII of the Covenant and of the promises made to the Arabs on several occasions that claim is inadmissible

en.wikipedia.org...

But yeah, not sure what you mean by a "solution" ... care to elaborate?

Two-state solution. Either that or bomb the sh!t out of Palestinians and Israeli's neighbors (you know some Israeli leaders want that) Get it over with already. End the apartheid. Let U.S-Israel troops get rid of Hizbollah and Hamas and if Israel cares, then maybe it could help defend both Israel and Palestine instead of antagonizing the Palestinians as they have done.

But of course, if this were to happen then Israel would probably not be able to b!tch about SOMETHING and probably would have to focus on something other than their military might. It's the same crap for more than 40 years. It's getting old, people.

ISRAEL & PALESTINE: THE MAPS TELL THE TRUE STORY
The truth is that far from being the poor victim it likes to portray itself as, Israel is in fact the
most aggressive and belligerent nation in the region, having invaded pretty much everyone
it shares a border with.

Maps Here



Another claim that Israel likes to make is that Palestine never really existed to start with.

"How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to."
Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

"There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed."
Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

Again, maps tell a different story.

I'm so sick of this palestine/ isreal crap.Good lord both of these peoples have hated each other for 3000 years.Since the time of abraham.Here's the scoop folks neither side is gonna quit untill either the other side is all dead or they both are.Both are guilty and both are innocent I've heard people take both sides the truth is ,it doesn't matter .It's not about nationalism it's about what abraham did they just don't remember what started this 3000 years ago.Well some of them do and I think they're the ones who keep this nonsense going.It will never end till one side or both are all gone.

reply to post by lonegurkha


I understand the history, political, and religious implications,
but
I think if you were from either of these nations,
maybe you would have a different view of the situation.

JMO

Originally posted by Ex
reply to post by lonegurkha

 

I understand the history, political, and religious implications,
but
I think if you were from either of these nations,
maybe you would have a different view of the situation.

JMO

Surely, but it does not help the case. Both nations need an impartial judge that could create a solution that favors both nations to end the bickering. This should be the responsibility of the U.S. so-called "leader of Democracy and the free world" but the U.S. has its hands tied with Israel. So, we are stuck with endless proposed resolutions, rocket fired, bombings, etc. Having the opinion of a particular side won't help any thing. This is a political and nationalistic issue.

reply to post by Serizawa


If you want to understand the true origins of the Palestine/Jewish conflict you'll have to read BOOKS on the subject, and not read some pithy biased distortion of how todays issue came to be. That article is abysmal with its errosr.

First of all, there are census' from Ottoman times that show a stagnant population in Palestine for nearly 200 years before the Jews were guaranteed their homeland in 1917. This period being from 1690-1890.. And before we even get to the issue of "explotation" and "displacing" you'll need to read up on the history of the holy land and how the perennial exploiters of the arabs were other arabs - the effendi class who like Europes elite, brutually took advantage perhaps even more egregiously of the peasant population. This is one of the many ironies that people simply know nothing about. In addition, nomads frequently came in and extorted the farmers in palestine to give over a certain percentage of their produce for 'protection' from other nomadic tribes. If they didnt do this they would be plundered. Palestine was a GRUELING land to live in for arab, Jew or christian. Very few took the risk to develop land lest an invading tribe take advantage of them and profit from their effort; this being another reason why the land laid desolate for so long.

Now, in the late 1800s, when the effendi began selling land to Jews for very high prices (being greedy as they are, they couldnt resist the revenue) they simulataneously incited Arab violence against the colonialist "Jews" even though roughly 40% of them had been dhimmi Jews from other Arab lands (Yemen, Baghdad, Libya, Morocco, Egypt etc)

The area known as western palestine (infact, the Jewish 'settled' areas of palestine only comprised a portion of Palestine ie; look at Israels 1948 borders which arent what they are now) had a steady population of around 120,000 "arabs" by 1917, when the Jews were assured a homeland by the league of nations. .The areas that the Jews came and settled in the late 19th early 20th century were mostly barren, uninhabited lands; ie, Rishon Tikva, Tel Aviv etc..Also, other areas of Israel already had large Jewish populations for over 2000 years since their expulsion by the Romans in 200 CE. Cities like Safed, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Hebron, (the 4 holy cities of Judaism) along with Gerar, Sheckem, Beer Sheva etc. In addition to that, Israel was NOT like other areas in the Arab world. Israel had a very small population, first of all, and second of all, there were greeks, Turks, Kurds, Circassions, Persians, amongst other populations with only a small arab (and by arab i mean strictly speaking, people from the arabian peninsula, not muslims) contingent. As many historians have also noted, and as a turkish census confirms, Palestine was a land that due to the harsh living conditions and severe taxations, had people moving in and out of it constantly. Most of the arab population of Israel were nomads which indicative of desert living moved in and around the middle east and hardly ever permanantly settled anywhere.

In 1917 when Israel was granted a nation - which was meant to comprise all of palestine, including the eastern side of Jordan, the Arabs began illegal immigrations into western palestine. The Ottomans allowed this despite making an effort to curtail Jewish immigration. In 1934 alone 30,000 hurani (syrians) migrated illegally into western palestine into Jewish settled areas. So, on the contrary, the Jews were the ones displaced by the arabs.

Remember how i said earlier that the population of palestine remained at around 120,000? Well by 1935, the british argued that an "unprecedented" natural increase in the palestinian population had occured that bolstered the arab numbers to a majority (which was a stipulation in the belfour declation. Only when the Jews would become a 'majority' would they become a Jewish state - this could have happened before the Nazi holocaysrt and could have been the Jewish peoples haven, but the british and arabs made sure that didnt happen. Also, coincidentally enough, the British restricted immigration during this time to its smallest numbers: only 10,000 a year, despite the fact that they were being systematically eliminated in Europe. Chaim Weizmann said regardless of british policy Jews were willing to swim to palestine if they had to. Only 50,000 got in during the war, even sending back boats of Jews who were looking for asylum - back to Germany.) from 120,000 to 460,000. These numbers were frankly impossible given the conditions. The other arab populations for instance in the Trans-jordan and Lebanon increased at around 50%, whereas in western palestine it was over 250%. Tthis despite the fact that the British only registed Jewish immigration, and felt no need to keep an eye on the arabs. This increase was OBVIOUSLY and undoubtedly the result of illegal immigration which even the british acknowledged in their reports, but underemphasized its importance.

So with the above, it is known that the Jewish homeland which was created by the league of nations for the Jews, was undermined by the British, even despite the fact that the Jewish money coming into the middle east was for JEWISH development. The British 'quota' system heavily restricted Jewish immigration yet crassly allowed Arabs from Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Libya, Sudan and northern saudia arabia to come into Palestine illegally at whim and take those Jobs which were created for Jewish workers. Only when it became so flagrant (literally, the british hope simpson report of 1930 used this word) did they deport arabs, and even small numbers at that.

The Arabs came simply because opportunity was being created by Jewish investment.

reply to post by rogerstigers


The solution being Jordan. That state was stripped from the original mandate and given over to the Arabs,. despite the fact that they already had so many states.

Solution would be deport those 4,000,000 palestinians to Jordan.

Population exchanges were possible since 1950, when 800,000 Sephardic Jews were expelled from muslims countries. an equal exhange of populations could have occured at the time. A precedent existed with the Greeks and Turks who exchanged around 350,000 and 600,000 each of their respective populations, and also in the 1950s when Pakistan sent 6,000,000 Hindus and Sikhs to India in exchange for 6,500,000 Muslims living in India.

The arabs categorically REFUSED and indeed became the first case of refusing to an evenhanded exchange of peoples. While they kicked out Jews, and expected the Israelis to take them, they refused to take on their own peoples- who they shared a language, culture, and religion with.

That is Islam for you.

reply to post by dontreally


Ahh....man and his silly notion of "owning" the earth.

I think that if you believe the borders around "your" piece of land define who you are than you should have the right to fight and die for that notion. Have at it, I don't care anymore......

It won't change the fact that it remains a notion.

To keep it fair, disassemble every military force on this planet and let the ones willing to die for there illusion have at it on some deserted piece of land with nothing but sticks and stones. The last one standing will be declared the winner and gets to define a new imaginary line on the map..........but leave me (and everybody else not interested) out of it. Screw national pride and patriotism, if it doesn't affect me I don't care if I have to call myself a Chinese, African, German or Eskimo.

Well.....that's my solution anyway. But I like yours to...(you did offer a solution, didn't you??)

Peace

Just wanted to present a little history of the middle east for those who believe that the nation states of isreal and palestine go back any distance into history www.mapsofwar.com...

reply to post by lonegurkha


The issue isnt who poltically controlled Palestine.

Palestine has been made up of a very cosmopolitan population, from as far away as Germany (the teutonic knights templar for instance) to Persians, Circassians, Turks, Kurds, Greeks, Bosnians since atleast the Middle ages. Mostly made up of Christians and Jews.

The Arab claim came around 650 CE and didnt last for longer than 50 years, when the Arabs lost control of Jerusalem.

Since than, this area has been 'juggled' between invading empires as that slideshow shows. There has NEVER been a distinctive arab population "since time immemorial" in Palestine.

But above all, lets not forget who made this land so important to the world. The Jews - Judaism, and the kingdom of Israel. This land has been sacred to the Jews for 3,500 years and a population, albeit small at certain politically hostile times in its four main cities of Tiberias, Safed, Jerusalem, and Chebron subsisted, despite the troubles brought upon them by the Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Persians, etc

So i think this people who as a people deserve a land that is their own, and indeed no land on earth belongs to any people more than Israel does to the Jewish people (as the many ancient Hebrew tombs, historical sites like Tomb of rachel, Samuel, Joseph, Temple mount attest to). And it is exceedinly unjust and invidious to hanker on about the 'displaced' palestinians, when those who were displaced were offerred compensation which they WOULD HAVE accepted if they werent threatened by the Muftism in Palestine - which today has evolved into the PLO. The Palestinians like any normal people want peace, and they would have gladly got up and gone to Jordan if their leaders werent making political capital of their plight in their war on a Jewish presence in their "arab world".

Truth will eventually prevail, and the truth is all peoples deserve a Home. NOT IN UGANDA, seeing that land has no historical relationship to the Jews, but to Africans; but in Israel, Eretz Yisrael.

Originally posted by dontreally
In 1917, when britain was mandated by the league of nations with establishing Palestine as a Jewish national home, it included ALL of present day Jordan and Israel. This is seldom known, but it is true. In 1922 The british violated the terms of the mandate and broke 75% of Palestine and gave it to the Saudi emir and thus created the trans-Jordan. One of the excuses behind this blatant defiance of the Balfour Declaration was the understanding that any displaced arabs in western palestine would be relocated to the 75% of Palestine that was taken away from the Jews.

It is not true.

There were several agreements, most of them signed by far more senior officials than Balfour, between France and Britain, as well as with various Arab nations, amongst others that sliced the Ottoman lands into various pieces even before the Ottomans had lost the territory. None of them worth the paper they were written on in the event of war...

It doesn't matter anyway, who said what and when, the problem remains the same and the only solution is one single unified nation with equal rights for all citizens.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


Well they werent recognized agreements. The Balfour Declaration was the de-facto purpose of Britain being granted control by the league of nations to create a Jewish state in Palestine - which then constituted both Jordan and Israel (back than was referred to as 'western palestine')

Im sure alot of talking went on behind the scenes. Makes alot of sense. Whats really sickening is the double standard the british applied against the Jews. For instance, they only bothered to assiduously monitor Jewish immigration, yet ignore the illegal immigration of arabs into Israel to take those jobs being created by Jewish investment intended for JEWISH workers than being persecuted in Europe (the pograms were very bad in eastern europe around this period). They not only ignored, but when criticized by the zionist representative to dosomething about it, like ID cards which was instituted in Syria by the french without much difficulty, retorted that they didnt have the means to carry out such a program, or, it would complicate already delicate matters in palestine with the arabs.

For instance, the Hope simpson report contradicted the purpose of the British mandate, which sought to make a home for the Jewish people. Later on the White paper completely and utterly obviated the balfour Declaration by giving Vetos powers to the Arabs in matters of Jewish immigration..And this occured at the vital time in History when the british were completely aware of what was happening in Germany - in 1939. The british completely and knowingly and obviously played an equal, albeit passive role in the Nazi extermination program. Look at the sinking of the Struma for a prime example of British callousness.

I think its funny too the idea of "peace" with arabs who are as vitriolic (indeed were friends with the Axis and firmly believed Germany would win the war. Only towards the end of the war did they change their tune so they could be admitted into the nascent UN) as the Nazis with their antisemitism and suicidal to boot.

No peace will come unless it comes through war. Or, an Arab concession to Israels right to exist, which is probably not going to happen.

If a two state solution occurs, it will setup the scenario the Arabs have been wanting since the 20's. An Israel small enough to completely obliterate.

You're acting like the British are the lord of the land....

Your op still fails to realize that Muslim/Palestinian people have been living in the land, and according to the UN, no one has the right to tell anyone to leave their land. Jews on the other hand migrated to Israel. So who is the "legitimate" owner of Palestine?

reply to post by dontreally


At the end of WWII the jews were offered Grand Island in the Niagara river just down the road a piece from where I live they refused .Truthfully I can't argue any of the well made points in your post.I agree completely with you.However I don't see the parties involved making peace any time soon.

Originally posted by dontreally

Well they werent recognized agreements. The Balfour Declaration was the de-facto purpose of Britain being granted control by the league of nations to create a Jewish state in Palestine -

I'm not sure on your timeline....Britain were given a protective mandate and actively resisted, diplomatically and on borders, European Jewish settlement. It was only with the fall of France that the other agreements became invalid and Balfour gained precedence. They always planned on screwing over most of the arabs, so honouring those agreements wasn't an issue once oil rights had been secured.

reply to post by KilgoreTrout

I'm not sure on your timeline

Whats wrong with my timeline? Im talking about the Belafour Declation of 1917 which dealt with the league of Nations desire to create a Jewish state. The previous 'agreements', although i know very little of them, had no bearing on Palestine after 1917.

screwing over most of the arabs

How exactly were they always "intent on screwing the arabs"?

How were the Arabs screwed (unless you mean by european colonialism, in which i case would still disagree. The arabs screwed themselves with their highly restrictive Islam which treats the poor in a disgusting fashion - this especially being horrible in palestine during ottoman and british rule - The Effendi are notoriously corrupt)

Those other discussions had no bearing on Britains actually administering the mandate. The League made it Britains responsibility to handle Palestine politically while allowing the Jewish immigration to grow until it became a Jewish majority.

It was actually the complete opposite. It was Jews who got screwed by the arabs,.

First of all, lets debunk the myth that Jews werent oppressed in muslim lands. That is absolutely ABSURD. They were relegated to Dhimmi status which has all sorts of cute perks like only being able to pass on a muslims left side (otherwise you would be hit), not being able to ride a horse, not having any legal rights, whether in court (all Jews are assumed guilty when a muslim makes a claim against you)... How many massacres have to occur before the truth starts being told? How many attacks did the Mufti of Jerusalem have to inspire (the 1936 Jerusalem massacre being financed with Nazi money) and how many Jews did crazed muslims have to kill before people realize that it is the JEWS who got screwed. Even before 1917 Jewish communities were being plundered and massacred ie; in Safed in 1840, in hebron a few times before 1917, and again and again after the belfour declaration. The "evil" Jews didnt even respond to these disgusting responses because overall Jews are decent law abiding human beings who at times can be compeltely push overs. The Irgun finally said enough to these ceaseless arabs massacres and in 1940 took revenge on the Arabs for their endless attacks on them; and even than, they had the decency to warn them before.

The land that Jews settle was actually only 9% of the Palestine mandate. That land has a sparse Arab population of around 120,000. Only with illegal arab immigration from Lebanon, Syria, trans-Jordan and Egypt of even people from as far as Sudan did the palestinian people manage to become a large majority thus precluding and giving the british a pretext to stifle Jewish immigration.

From they very beginning, His Majesties government was effing with the Jews. First they apportion them all of Palestine, than reduce it to 25%, only 9% of which was actually settled by Jews. Than of this 9%, in the coastal regions of palestine, did the Arabs start moving in and taking Jewish jobs that were created to facilitate Jewish immigration. Did the british help, or prevent this immigration? They turned their head and their own reports regard their handling of the situation as "blinkered", they blinked and more and more illegal arabs come in, having agreements with the Arabs to allow this.

They created a quagmire for the Jews. They got them in and made them fight tooth and nail to get the land that was first of all, THEIRS and the many ancient Hebrew inscripted tombs throughout the land attest to that, as do the ancient religious sites of Cave of Macpelah (cave of the patriachs) Tomb of Rachel, in bethelehem, Tomb of Joseph, Tomb of Samuel, the Temple mount. Israel is fiilled with physiocal testimony of this people - theJews, physical and spiritual connection to the land. The palestine claim is superficial and also exaggerated beyond recognition. The original situation was much different than it is today, thanks to unchecked illegal immigration. And 2nd of all, the freaking league of nations promised them the state, and ended up reducing it to a pitiful amount (just look how amazingly sad the 1948 borders were, and STILL the greedy warmongering muslims wanted to throw the Jews into the sea)

If you would like to understand the detals of all that im writing you can read Joan Peters national best seller "From time immemorial" the origins of the Jewish-Palestine conflict.

reply to post by lonegurkha


I would have rejected it to.

a little island on the niagara river? Are they freaking serious?

Thats how much they respect the Jews. They offer them uganda, an island in the great lakes, when all it is they want and deserve is their state in their peoples ancient homeland. Its completely reasonable. They didnt contrary to whats megaphoned leave the land for 2000 years only to return in 1848. They had a continuous population in many different cities; Jerusalem, Tiberias, Safed, Hebron. Safed has always had a large Jewish presence of atleast 1000 Jews since their ancient Kingdom, despite the fact that massacres occurred very frequently.

Us north americans are so sheltered from what the world is really like, and how harsh human being can really be to each other. Massacres especially Islam inspired attacks were incredibly common in the middle east and North Africa. When the Jews got the chance to leave (sometimes they were even prevented from leaving. Also, did you know that the european practice of forcing Jews to wear a badge was actually devised in morocco by the Muslim rulers and only transported to Germany 150 years later)

When it comes to dehumanizing an individual, the muslims are the best at it. Look at their own woman and see how much freedom they have; they cant even show their faces!