Wisconsin protesters to face Tea Party counter protesters today

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
reply to post by beezzer

 

They are taxpayers, Beezer. We can't paint this with such a wide brush, ya know? They also probably to their fair share of contributing to their own healthcare costs and pensions. That varies from state to state.

They get their salary and their benefits soley from tax payer money. Sure they pay taxes, on tax paid money. Kinda like taxing money twice.
Niiiiiice.

reply to post by beezzer

Exactamundo. I added a question after you replied, too. Is this state's financial burden maybe really being caused by tax cuts for the rich and large, multinational corporations? It seems like it might be?

reply to post by ~Lucidity


The Tea party is a corporate shill party . . . . Created by corporatists to make them more money. They are ignorant whores who only exist like the Republican party to aid and abet the rich and super rich like the Koch brothers.

www.usnews.com...

But it has now come out how involved they [THE KOCH BROTHERS] have been in funding Tea Party groups, Americans for Prosperity, FreedomWorks, and Citizens for a Sound Economy ($12 million). [Check out a roundup of political cartoons on the Tea Party.]

reply to post by woodwardjnr

But like BenevolentHeretic sort of said, look at what is dividing us. Where the hell is our common ground? No one seems to even want to discuss that anymore. Seems like the "sides" have dug in and can't even focus on anything else.

Both my grandfathers were union workers in the trade fields, and staunch supporters of it. They told us about how hard it was to find work, how easy it was for the big boss man to fire someone, impress them to work unreasonable hours with no overtime, paltry wages, kids working in factories, no sick days, and other miserable pitfalls of employment before the advent of worker unions and collective bargaining. After learning about the conditions from them during the 20s and 30s when the unions were taking center stage to keep the businesses and corporations honest, I hold the position of my grandparents. Too be fair, the Unions have had their pitfalls as well, from strong arm tactics, collusion with organized crime, skimming pensions, ect, but on paper it seems to be a good thing as long as it remains honest. Avarice is everywhere.

With the situation in Madison, I am on the fence about if I support them or not? We can all agree that state budgets are in the abyss right now, and in response, serious cuts are going to have to be made. Everyone, from the highest ranking government officer down to the lowly civil servant is going to have to take the brunt of it. These teachers and others protesting in the streets are tasked with providing essential services to the state and the taxpayer.

They have no right to shut things down when ever they feel like it, and affecting not only a certain portion of society but everyone. That is something we have to keep in mind with the phenomenon of government unions. Moreover, the taxpayers ought to be given a say in how much these workers should be payed as well as the politicians. I have heard stuff about possible referendums and such to address that concern. That seems like a possible alternative going forward. In respects to the current situation, the Wisconsin governor has laid down the ground work for his proposal to alleviate some of the strain of the state budget deficit. Some are going to feel they are being singled out. If need be, some kind of meeting needs to be held to negotiate a new contract between the union and the state.

The governor ought to call the parties together, and negotiate a new contract with the necessary parties before passing the budget. It seems to me, that he is trying to ram through the budget before any kind of deliberations or collective bargaining can take place? The state is already in the toilet, and a few more weeks or months should be put aside so everyone can work out an equitable deal. Lets spare the partisan smoke screens, and look at this topic rationally. One thing is for certain, most of us can agree that times are tough and people will stop at nothing to preserve their family's dignity and standard of living.

To cut a long story short, the jury is still out concerning the situation in Wisconsin. As for the Tea Party jumping into the fray as the OP points out, it seems they are playing the role union buster and agitator? They had better think twice before shaking the stick at that hornets nest? The people are already furious about the perception of being slighted by the governor, and a handful of Tea Party counter protesters chanting opposing rhetoric is like a child playing with matches in a room full of accelerants They had better tread lightly on this one. Lets not risk people getting hurt or serious damage to property over a union dispute.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


I'll answer you honestly. I'm not sure.
There was a thread about the gov. giving tax breaks that may have been over the top. But budgets, especially government budgets, are compartmentalized. Even though it's underneath same auspices, government can't borrow from category "A" to pay for category "B".

And this entire issue isn't about cuts. It's about limiting the raises that these public unions receive. You may want to call Wall Street/corporate America greedy, but these government unions have shown their true colours.

reply to post by inforeal

Well their material sure sounds to me like it's being written by corporate interests. Look as the words they even us—egregious violators, strong-arming union thugs, absurd contracts, bullying methods, plush benefits, lavish contracts, extravagant health benefits, bloated pensions, Is that the reality for these working people? Is it really? No.

And who does cutting down on any or all of these "egregious violations" really benefit? The government? The corporations that have to lose profits on these "extravagant" health benefits or finally pay up on some of these "bloated pensions" that people worked years for? Ugh.

I'm sure not every Tea Party "member" has this mindset but it sure does sound to me like there's some discongruity between these kind of talking points and the pure-vanilla Tea Party members viewpoints.

Originally posted by alysha.angel50 or 60 years ago when wives stayed home raised the kids took care of the shopping housework ect things n my opinion were a lot simpler.

Originally posted by ~Lucidity
Okay, I'm just going to say it. Why the hell would the Tea Party pick government over people? How far is this going to go? Could we see violence here?

Because in this case the "people' are a small minority of the population who are not willing to do themselves what they are demanding of the rest of the population.

The state is broke - either they raise taxes on everyone (80-90% of the people) to keep the status quo or the unions (10-20% of the population) negotiate.

The needs of the few in this case are being touted as more important than the needs of the many. Spock would have none of that!

Democrats have over the years made huge promises to the Unions in exchange for campaign money. Now those promises are untenable and they don't seem to want to take responsibility for their actions and make amends.

Truth is unions were important in the past but since they became more of a political action committee than a workers’ rights organization the tables have tipped and the unions are the ones doing what the employers did. Manipulating the system to their sole advantage - can't have a job if the company (in this case government) is broke.

So now the unions are in control over then employers in a one sided relationship that is just as unbalanced as the employers having all the juice. The unions are driving up taxes for the common people and in the case of private companies they are inflating the price of goods and services.

Especially in those unions for un/semi-skilled labor - it doesn't take a load of skill to put screws in a molded piece of metal on an assembly line; neither that nor an education is required. What are they being compensated for?

My uncle who works for GM makes more than a Captain in the Army and he’s not in charge of anything but his station on the line. For sure his retirement plan is better than mine from the military. I got 50% after 20 years he gets 85% of his last years pay and guess who gets all the over time? Yep the guys who are in their last year. So he will retire making more than he did when he was working.

reply to post by ~Lucidity

Did you just call teachers, police, firefighters, and healthcare workers drones? ...

I KNEW some one would bite.

Please notice YOU are talking about teachers, police, firefighters. I AM talking about Government Drones. The endless battalions of people who work for the government and do very little except drive productive people crazy with their endless red tape.

The most useless boss I ever had was a chemist (masters degree) who had worked for the government for 20 years and had just "retired" to industry. The turkey not only could not find his rear with both hands, he singlehandedly constipated the entire lab and got fired in three months. Upper Management NEVER fires other management unless they REAL REAL are screw-ups.

I have had multiple run-ins with various government inspectors and other agents. Out of the several dozen I have had to work with over the years, from FDA,USDA, housing... I have respect for ONE!


And given the absolutely crappy job teachers are doing teaching our young I have NO respect for the current crop of teachers!

"For 10 years, William Schmidt, a statistics professor at Michigan State University, has looked at how U.S. students stack up against students in other countries in math and science. .... by 12th-grade, we're at the bottom of the heap, outperforming only two countries, Cyprus and South Africa."
:Source

I am supposed to REWARD this type of failure?


Oh and if you want to talk about police:

...The Spring 2007 edition of Justice Policy Journal features a 31 page treatise, Civil Asset Forfeiture: Why Law Enforcement Has Changed its Motto from "To Serve and Protect" to "Show Me the Money," in which Jared Shoemaker examines the negative impact on law enforcement goals and practices when police agencies aggressively pursue civil asset forfeitures as a means of supplementing their budgets, as well as how police agencies' addiction to forfeiture revenue leads to disregard for individual due process rights, sometimes with tragic and life-altering consequences for innocent individuals....

More importantly, the narcotics units studied preferred seizing cash intended for purchase of drugs supplied by the police, rather than confiscating drugs already on the street. When asked why a search warrant would not be served on a suspect known to have resale quantities of contraband, one officer responded:
"Because that would just give us a bunch of dope and the hassle of having to book him (the suspect). We've got all the dope we need in the property room, just stick to rounding up cases with big money and stay away from warrants."

In one case an agency instructed the researcher to observe the suspect's daily transactions reselling a large shipment of coc aine so that officers could postpone making the bust until after the majority of the drug shipment was converted to cash. This case was only one of many in which the goal was profit rather than reducing the supply of drugs reaching the street. ... www.fear.org...

Again my personal experience with the theft of my semi truck and trailer has left me with nothing but contempt for the police in my state. With a picture, SS#, address, drivers licence number, girl friends address, and me spotting the guy not once but three times, it took FIVE years for the cops to catch the thief. He will get a max sentence of 2 months probation despite multiple arrests and convictions including attempted murder.

I hope that the Tea party demonstrations dwarf the pathetic union childish whining yuppie spoon fed cry babies that are protesting now. I think that they will. Each and every democrat that left the state should at the very least be censured formally and have there pay docked. And every teacher that has skipped work should be loose wages . Period. Say, one weeks pay for every day missed.

reply to post by ~Lucidity


See the difference is that we in Europe are normally reasonably united over protesting against our government. The recent student protests, although derided in some parts of the right wing press, were generally well supported by the majority of Brits. We certainly dont have protest groups calling for more cuts to the uk economy and I cant see a group like that gaining much popularity.

The thing both most tea partiers and most progressives can agree on, is that neither are in the top 1% who own the majority of the wealth. Both I assume want the same freedoms? Both at risk of future unemployment, both at risk of seeing a decline in social mobility. There's a few things they have in common.

reply to post by woodwardjnr


May I speak for the Tea Party?
Thank you.

Progressives and Tea Party members see the same problems, it's just that we have different solutions.

This is a microcosm of the true meaning of Armageddon: the good side—the Wisconsin protesters, against the evil side—the fascist governor and the corporate shill Tea Party.

The Governor is Pontius Pilate and the Tea Party are the Sadducees and Pharisees

The Wisconsin protesters represent Jesus and the disciples. They have the Reverend Jesse Jackson and Ed Shultz on their side for the lower classes against the super rich and their puppets in the Tea party and that puppet of the rich Governor Walker advocating their side, the side of the ruling class.


These people don’t give a dam about taxes. They are just using that as an excuse to union bust, so the rich and the super-rich can do what they want in the work place and bring us back to serfdom.

It is the Unions that are the ONLY opposition to the corporate empire that can give unlimited money to buy politicians.

The ignoramuses who support this fascist governor don’t know that, at least most of them don’t, therefore they constantly support groups like the Tea party and individuals like this Governor Walker that do things against the intrests of the average guy.

He is doing this ONLY SO HE CAN CUT TAXES FOR THE RICH!
THE SAME THING CHRIS CHRISTIE DID IN NEW JERSEY.

reply to post by crimvelvet

Okay. Fine. You call them drones, and I'll call them Americans lucky enough to still be making a living in employment in the public sector. Your drones in the private sector are far worse off

As for that teacher study and the reasons our kids are "dumb?" There are many arguments and just as many counterarguments to that, with some problems wrought by unions and others wrought by and/or not addresed by governments. Off topic but it might make a good one if you want to post a thread. You may not respect teachers (broadbrush), but plenty still do. Plenty are still out there giving their all despite all this political BS.

reply to post by inforeal

Don't even get ,me started on Christie and NJ. There may be a bloody revolution there if half of what I've read is true (here's a very long summary newjerseyhills.com...). I hear Florida is in bad shape this way too. Probably quite a few other states too and they just don't know it yet. All the people in all the states need to realize they're probably next.

reply to post by inforeal


Why don't you just admit that you want socialism, not freedom.
It's not hard to say.
It's obvious you abhor personal responsibility and lower taxes, so c'mon scooter, just admit it.

You want the government unions to get more tax payer money. You want taxes raised. Calling us names is just another symptom of the hatred for freedom today.

Associating the greed of the unions to Jesus is also beyond tacky.
Shame, sir. Shame.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

Interesting. There does seem to be more unity there as far as workers rights are concerned. This I have noticed, but they'll probably start working on that little issue there too soon.

As to the other thing, I don't think some of them realize they're not in the top 1%. Or they sure don't act and speak like they realize it.

I'm frustrated. I have been staying out of the more serious matters on ATS because I get so frustrated sometimes. I have to just see myself as an observer, watching the decline of a society. Every day, I lose hope that we can bring it together in time - before we actually fall. But every day goes by and it just gets worse.

I think the common ground should be the Constitution. And the people should stand united against the government and its intrusion into our lives, but like I said, both sides WANT government intrusion to serve THEIR needs and desires. They're both so messed up - this country is so messed up - that hope is just a small spark in a huge dark space.

But when I talk about the Constitution and being united, both sides come out with THEIR interests, not considering the interests that others have. We have become a nation of such selfish people, it makes me so sad. Everyone wants what THEY want and screw the other people and what they want.

Why is it that people can't support the rights of those with whom they disagree??? Since when did each of us think we can make our rules apply to everyone? So, you don't like unions. FINE, Don't belong to one. Don't support them, but get out of my life! Leave me alone! If I want an abortion, if I want to do drugs, or own a gun, or to marry another woman, If I want to hate something and express it, love something, pray in school or NOT, protest something you like, leave me alone!

The Tea Party want government spending cut. Schools are not in my opinion the best place to start but entitlements add up and are very costly long term obligations that experience creep with collective bargaining.

Tax cuts for corporations keep them in your state. Without them they will find lower tax states or nations and move taking all of the jobs they create with them so there is a catch 22 situation. Unfortunately for America the entire world would like to have our jobs. That means we take benefit cuts or we take job cuts one or the other.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Why is it that people can't support the rights of those with whom they disagree??? Since when did each of us think we can make our rules apply to everyone? So, you don't like unions. FINE, Don't belong to one. Don't support them, but get out of my life! Leave me alone! If I want an abortion, if I want to do drugs, or own a gun, or to marry another woman, If I want to hate something and express it, love something, pray in school or NOT, protest something you like, leave me alone!

And there it is.

As you can see, I'm totally frustrated too. And watching helpless. Seeing both sides and just not getting why some of these matters are so worthy of paralyzing and/or numbing an entire nation. And probably destroying it in the end if we don't just start prioritizing and talking,

Why can't people support the rights of those with whom they disagree? Beats me. I do it all the time. You do it. So we know it's possible.

But you know we're about to hear exactly why they can't, don't you? Because they can. And because tangentially, somehow, some way, they will probably try link it to either the Constitution.

As for Wisconsin—how many jobs did they lose in the private sector, how much did their tax base erode as a result, and how many back-door deals and special interest shenanigans are going on to even have gotten to this point where this has become such an issue? This union thing is not the root cause of their problems. It's just an easy fix.