OZ MP - "inability" of Muslim migrants to integrate. Finally the debate gets some publicity.

jews do this also, keep their money & ties closley knitted in thier religious community. & its well known they do. but no one complains about them, of course

i will support a minority business wayyy beforei support a mcdonalds or walmart. get over it. 'they' domt want to integrate b/c they KNOW they are hated by people who HATE change.

Originally posted by JonoEnglish
What about the Aboriginal people in Oz? Something like 75% are living in poverty.

To be honest mate, you cant say that successive Australian governments haven't tried to help them....and Im not talking bout the stolen generation here so dont even bother bringing that up...Im talking about real help.

A close friend of mine has worked in outback communities as a doctor and he has seen first hand how our tax money has been wasted on housing.....the government buys these communities portable buildings and builds some sort of shelter/housing for them only to see that these communities revolt and destroy and damage these buildings burining them to the ground...the same with brand new landcruisers, given to these communities care of the tax power only to see them destroyed in no time....

F.F.S !

theres only so much assistance you can offer before you have to "man-up" as a community and take some responsibility for the # that you are in.....Ive seen some aboriginals really make a good living by starting as farm hands and working their way up, getting jobs, experience etc instead of sitting around the community park, drinking themselves stupid and beating and assaulting other members of their community.

Originally posted by JonoEnglish
I know Muslims who are very western in their mindset, yet obviously do practise their faith, much like many christians do.

I totaly agree. I work with a muslim guy that I have known since we've started together 15 years ago. He has a beard and practices his faith in his own time, but other than that, he sounds like everyone else, follows footy, gets along well with everyone and denounces extremist fools for bringing the name and respect of his faith into the gutter.

Thats integration my friend.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Point is, YOUR ancestors did not assimilate to the local culture. YOU are not assimilating to that culture, either. So long as you exist as an isolated immigrant clump that refuses to accept and integrate into your lives the culture and history of the native people of your chunk of Gondwanaland, you can't really complain when someone fails or refuses to integrate to yours.

And frankly what I've seen of Australian "culture" gives me a pretty clear message of why someone might not be too keen on integration.

Ive already mentioned my thoughts and opinions but feel strongly enough to respond to this comment....to be truthful Mr Fox.....the local native culture as it stands does is not really a pillar of respect, or an example that has been well set for everyone else to follow. Yes, the natives have alot of knowledge that they can and have passed on to us "immigrants", but they severely lack any social examples to set for the rest of the community to follow.

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
The reason new immigrant communities congregate is to create a sense of security and well being. It is an incredibly scary thing coming to a new community. Why all the rage against Muslims ? Well, Italians have communities, as do the Vietnamese, Greeks and every other wave of immigrants - why are you not jumping up and down about this ?

I understand the whole point of security and well being, but this has gotten beyond a joke when "gangs" of middle eastern youths harass girls on the local beaches for wearing bikinis.......why dont they harass their own women for wearing the hijab? Its because they see the locals as infidels and not worthy of respect let alone integrate into their communities.

Italians, Vietnamese, Greeks, yes they do have their own communities and as I said in my OP, Im not saying that their communities are right either because its another example just the same as the muslim communities of segregation in society.......but these nationalities have "integrated" far better than any nationalities from Islamic backgrounds/cultures.

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
I see nothing wrong with other peoples cultures - if you do then perhaps it would be worthwhile trying to find out why you find other cultures so offensive.

Sorry my firend but I beleive you are missing the point here....the arguement is not about finding their culture offensive, but their cultures refuse to mix with the local society as multiculturally based as the local society already is.....this stinks of a sense of elitism....they beleive that their islamic upbringing is far superior than that of western societies which is why they try and force their way of life upon us. And dont tell me they dont because I have seen first hand what their vocal minority (or local majority in areas) does.

Schools stopping celebrating Christmas because it "may" offend some students/parents.....

Mate, you have come to a western nation brought up on Christian Values and tradition...if you dont like it, send your kids to one of the local islamic schools that your community have built.

Local KFC and Hungry jacks take away store not serving bacon in their burgers unless you specifically ask for it, and even then you may not get it because the store is in a suburb of high muslim community members.....

WTF? If this isn't impossible your way of life upon the local community then I dont know what is.

School bbq's having to use Halal meat and Halal sausages instead of pork sausages and if pork sausages are supplied then they want a seperate bbq to stop cross contamination.....

FFS....get over yourselves......

The other issue I have is stores having their names in another language...this is Australia, you have your store name in English.

I;ve had first hand experience of being ignored at stores run by people of muslim background.....how do they expect to receive respect from the rest of the community when they DO NOT EVEN TRY TO ASSIMILATE AS A SOCIETY?

The question arises now, like what the Liberal Minister has brought up....what are we to do now to overcome this?

Do we limit immigration from un-assimilatable nations?

How do we break up the urban ghetto's?

I dont beleive full time Islamic schools are going to help their students/youth assimilate so I'd say to close them down aswell.

We of western origin would not be able to even ask about any of the things that Muslim communities do in our country should we try it in theirs......so why do they beleive we should comply with their requests here?

Controlled immigration is a good thing.....CONTROLLED......but it hasnt worked and something needs to be done before society evolves (some may argue with that use of the word) and takes care of some of these social issues themselves with their own hands.

Why must we enter into a form of religious debate? The simple answer is clear, Muslims have a hard time assimilating into Western culture but so do some other peoples. To just say it is the Muslims is to deny the facts. Sure Muslims may be the single largest group finding it difficult to integrate but instead of just singling them out like we have done so far, why do we not just make it universally known that anyone who does not assimilate will be deported. Simple as that, this does not target any one specific group as it goes for anyone who cannot assimilate.

My home town of Jacksonville, Florida has the 10th largest Arab population in the United States but I never hear of any problems around here. No issues of Muslim self-segregation, no honor killings, no Muslim crimes, no Muslim ghettos, hell if I had never read that statistics I would never even had known.

There are those who can assimilate, as is the cases with local Muslims where I live, and those who cannot, or more specifically will not, which need to be deported.

If those who want to immigrate here but hate our nations and/or our ideals knew that if they come here and do not assimilate that they will be deported then only those who truly want to be part of our nations will come here, the rest will stay wherever they are.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


well spoken.


have you noticed that a lot of this anti-immigrant crap is all about fear?

fear that what your people did to others will now be done to them in turn.

yeah forget the past, wouldn't want them abos and muzzies getting any ideas from euro-history, now.

The immigrant in and of themselves is not the problem.

The host nation in and of themselves is not the problem.

The freedom of movement coupled with peoples want (completely understandable btw) to live in communities of like minded, or culturally similar peoples is the problem.

This is the flaw with multiculturalism.

We don't INTEGRATE! We live inside the same areas in SEGREGATED populations.

The segregation is what breeds the intolerence and hatred.

I lived through something similar in my area. We had a large influx of Indian and Pakistanis during the 80's. They tended to live in pockets of people from their own country, and it did cause problems. However, by the time their children (20 odd years) had grown up, and semi-integrated into our society, the communities started to slowly disperse. Now, we have very few and very minor problems with Indians, Pakistanis, and native (multi-generational) Canadians...in my area.

If you want to solve the 'Muslim' problem, open your arms and invite them in. The faster they become comfortable (and safe) inside their surroundings, the faster integration will occur. And don't be suprised that integration is a two way street...it is beneficial. Hell, when I grew up, our 'ethnic' food was limited to Chinese, now I have access to everything under the sun (food, shallow I know). I also have access to a myriad of festivals and cultural events that have given me a much broader and happier view of the world and it's people.

Multiculturalism can work, it just needs an open mind and time.

reply to post by kwakakev


Mate Im not moving to ANYWHERE.
I've been in this residence for over a decade, in the general area for most of my life and I have ancestors in a historical cemetery in this area dating back to the mid 1800s.
I doubt very much you'd tell an Aboriginal who ancestors have lived here since here since the 1800s to move.
Don't be so offensive.

What Western society? Australia was stolen from the indigenous people only a a century or 2 back.

I'm sure alot of the black folks in Australia think these European leaders are unable to integrate to Australian culture.

The irony is delicious.

The Brits went over, bastardised the country, refused to embrace native culture and took control. Now they're complaining that Muslim migrants won't embrace current Australian culture, and are doing the same as the European invaders.

Anyone stopped to ask the actual natives what they think?

Originally posted by mungodave
I think this summs it up...

They don't want to intergrate.

"they" are hardly the static entity that you portray "them" as. I know several egyptian muslims who own successful buisnesses, nice houses, and have only one canadian wife. Are you trying to suggest that these people just want to control canada for evil purposes?

Just because somebody hold certain beliefs doesnt mean they fill the stereotypical racially charged media "ideal"...

I think the main misunderstanding is that Islam is all about them integrating everyone else into their religion, not them integrating into our society.

Sometimes the truth sucks, but it's the truth nonetheless.

reply to post by Melbourne_Militia


You are simply intolerant - not meant to be an insult, but thats what you are. I am not sure entirely what you are, background wise, however I am first fleet on both sides of my family, descendants of Irish catholic and Protestant English, linked back to English Prime ministers, so fairly white - wasp if you will.

I understand the resentment of differences between cultures and the wish to have people behave, act and appear the same as yourself - but when they don't people tend to respond the same as yourself all over the world. Its simply a case of insecurity and low self esteem, coupled with small minded nationalism which is the source for this type of angst.

As I have said I have a very white Australian background - so why don't I feel the same way you do ? why is it that I can see something you can't ?

It's like football, cars, or anything else - people just do different things. I don't care that people follow a different club - in fact it would be boring, there would be no football. Similar with cars or food or in this case cultures. People simply have different languages. What does it matter ? It doesn't, in fact it makes things more interesting having all these awesome places to visit - like Victoria street in Richmond, the Vic markets, China town, Lygon street etc. Foreigners have all congregated in these areas with their own shops, languages, cultures and traditions, yes its different - but thats great, its like having different footy clubs.

When an immigrant society first comes to a new nation, history tells us that they often face a great deal of resentment and frequent abuse, both physical and verbal. So of course they are going to be defensive, cautious, and appear aloof. There is no need to mistake that for arrogance. Of course they are going to maintain their own culture, no need to mis read that as arrogant or better than you. When you decide that people not wanting to take on your culture as being arrogant, you are simply implying that your culture is better - the exact arrogance you are decrying.

Even so - what is wrong with having some pride in your culture. You appear to have some pride - there is nothing really wrong with that - what is deplorable is not respecting that right in other people. I know many Greeks and Italians who have great pride in their culture - almost to the point of arrogance, I have absolutely no issue with people having pride in their culture - why would you ? Insecurity ?

All cultures have their gangs - especially white Christian cultures. Especially Australian whites. In fact we are probably the worst. Your assessment and evidence of Muslims lack of integration is simply taking extreme examples, ignoring cases of the same things perpetrated by your own culture while also ignoring all the cases of well assimilated, kind loving and friendly Muslims - as if they simply don't exist.

Your position on these cultures, compared to mine - when we have the same background - means you are profoundly intolerant, racist and bigoted relative to me. Any person, foreign or domestic would therefore be able to use your line of reasoning and use you an example to claim Australians are racist, backward and bigoted people - despite the fact that I am not. You give us all a bad name - just as some Muslims give all Muslims a bad name - it takes a higher level of thought and consideration to see that not all Australians are as backward as you - just as it takes a higher level of thought to see not All Muslims are backwards either.

Simple.

reply to post by St-Patrick

Its funny how things can change so quickly, the first Muslims to immigrate to Spain adapted well to the Spanish culture and their particular way of living.But a lot of the new arrivals have a completely different attitude, its more like an invasion with hints of contempt of Spanish society, you can never generalize, but as an Australian observer it was fairly clear what was happening. I found this offensive as there is basically no respect towards the country you are living in and that is sustaining you in that moment of time. I have seen Brazilians enter spain, with no education what so ever, but who knew plenty about respecting the space that you are living in. Personally, I have friends from many countries and enjoy multicultural relationships,but I clearly choose what type of person I want to relate with. I dont decide this on the religion they practice, but rather on how they act and relate on a daily basis. My partner who has travelled a lot in the middle east, tells me that when you enter each country they have very strict rules of conduct and that she had to abide by them. So why shouldnt Australia have there own conditions, to me its only logical to not do so is a very large mistake.
Another example that I often use is simple but very beneficial, forget countries and just think in terms of a home. If you have a home and you were sharing with other cultures, what would you do?
I know in my home I would not have anybody dictating to me what I should do, my view is if you come and share my home you have to (ADAPT) When I have a need to go to you home it will be your time to dictate to me. If I don't like what is dictated to me it up to me to move on to somewhere more suitable.
At the end of the day its not so much of cultural issue, its more fundamental its about respect. Ask any parent about this and they will have plenty of first hand knowledge of this.
I mean even a restaurant and a bar can throw you out if you are not behaving, time to wake up Australia. You have enough internal problems to have to worry about others problems, who more than likely wouldn't care less about you.Its not a question of racism, its a question of creating a pleasant space to live in.
I watched a film a few days ago called " east is east" this will show you some of the problems the Australians will be encountering, and gives insight with plenty of solutions on how not to fall in to the same mistakes.
n

reply to post by NadaCambia

You appear to live in the uk, an island. This Island is made up of immigrations throughout is known history, now that is what makes it as it is nowadays. The same applies to Australia, sure the British influence was very inhumane to say the least and when I say that I include the treatment of those who were brought to populate Australia. But lets face it, the first and second world war which came after-wards didn't score much for the advancement of humanity. But on the more positive side, everything that has been built here is an improvement on what was here before. If you removed what was done and then invited you and some friends to stay with our brothers of the land you wouldn't last 28 days. In my opinion, the Aboriginal people are free to live as they wish and that is a responsibility as well as a gift, in the past their people were abused but as far as I can see that abuse is over. Also I find that as a country, Australia has a very strong spirit that changes people, the aboriginal have a name for blond haired people " Toe heads " So that might be exactly what we are, so watch out you better take cover cause we ARE the land of down under.

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
reply to post by Melbourne_Militia

 

Your position on these cultures, compared to mine - when we have the same background - means you are profoundly intolerant, racist and bigoted relative to me. Any person, foreign or domestic would therefore be able to use your line of reasoning and use you an example to claim Australians are racist, backward and bigoted people - despite the fact that I am not. You give us all a bad name - just as some Muslims give all Muslims a bad name - it takes a higher level of thought and consideration to see that not all Australians are as backward as you - just as it takes a higher level of thought to see not All Muslims are backwards either.

Simple.

we do not have the same background.....i mentioned in one of my earlier posts that I am first generation immigrant to Australia having come as a child along with many relatives. The examples i gave earlier are NOT extreme examples but ones that are happening in many outer suburbs of Melbourne....not just one or two isolated incidences.

There is also nothing wrong with pride in your culture, BUT when that pride in your culture overwhelm's and blinds your ability to assimilate/integrate then don't you think that there is a problem?

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
reply to post by Melbourne_Militia

 

You are simply intolerant - not meant to be an insult, but thats what you are.

No, I am very tolerant, but if you would have payed attention to my ealier posts you would have understood my position on this topic....my intolerance lies in the fact that I do not appreciate groups of people that do not assimilate/integrate into Australian society and would rather segregate and form urban ghetto's, trying to influence local culture and way of life to become that like their former home nations.....judging by your comments, you must be a supporter of this? The majority of Australian's are not. Thats the fact!

Originally posted by Aristophrenia
reply to post by Melbourne_Militia

 

Any person, foreign or domestic would therefore be able to use your line of reasoning and use you an example to claim Australians are racist, backward and bigoted people - despite the fact that I am not. You give us all a bad name - just as some Muslims give all Muslims a bad name - it takes a higher level of thought and consideration to see that not all Australians are as backward as you - just as it takes a higher level of thought to see not All Muslims are backwards either.

Once again you are not reading my earlier posts...you must have just read the gist of it and not the detail to go off making such accusations....I said earlier that I work with a good friend who is a practicing Muslim. Please read my post at the start of Page 3 - quoted below -

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia

Originally posted by JonoEnglish
I know Muslims who are very western in their mindset, yet obviously do practise their faith, much like many christians do.

I totaly agree. I work with a muslim guy that I have known since we've started together 15 years ago. He has a beard and practices his faith in his own time, but other than that, he sounds like everyone else, follows footy, gets along well with everyone and denounces extremist fools for bringing the name and respect of his faith into the gutter.

Thats integration my friend.

How the hell is my line of reasoning racist and bigoted? I want immigrants to blend into Australian society just as I and my family have....there's a reason for immigrants to come to Australia...its because they don't like their country of origin or the way of life there so they come here for a better life.....if you come here, live how we live...dont lock yourselves up away from the rest of society. Feel free to practice your faith and culture in your own home but do not try and force that culture/religion onto the rest of the community....that just breeds resentment towards you and your culture/religion.

I know it's not just Australia that has this problem. And stop bringing up the arguement of the First Fleet settlers not assimilating to the local indigenous culture....we are talking about whats going on now...not what went on, go start another thread on that seperate topic if you so desire. You cannot change the past, whats done is done, how are we to help solve this? to build a better Australian society?

What exactly do people mean when they say ''integrate'' ?

What constitutes somebody integrating as opposed to not integrating ?

In a free society, people should be able to live how they want. So what if some people don't want much to do with the rest of society ? They are only harming themselves by doing this, and future generations will eventually mold themselves successfully into an ever evolving society.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox


Point is, YOUR ancestors did not assimilate to the local culture. YOU are not assimilating to that culture, either. So long as you exist as an isolated immigrant clump that refuses to accept and integrate into your lives the culture and history of the native people of your chunk of Gondwanaland, you can't really complain when someone fails or refuses to integrate to yours.

And frankly what I've seen of Australian "culture" gives me a pretty clear message of why someone might not be too keen on integration.

What a racist bigoted remark ,but i suppose that is ok by you as long as it's not about Aboriginals or Muslims,
What has happened in history is un changeable,so unless you have a time machine or want 2.5% of the population (Aboriginals) ruling the majority in some sort of undemocratic dictatorship,it's the way it is,The way the aboriginals were treated in the past is wrong there's no denying that,Many wrongs have happened in the past ,committed by every race and religion on the planet,Do we live in the past and continue the hate and blame or do we move on?

You seem to have a very dim view of Australia and Australians in general , why is your racial prejudice against Australians any different to racism against muslims? Is this racial hatred directed at all Aussies or only white one's ?

Have you ever been to Australia ? what have you seen of Aussie culture that sickens you so ? i really hope your not judging a whole nation by the actions of a few,out of interest what county are you from mate ?

I'm an Aussie and I'm proud to be an Aussie so get the hell over it mate!

reply to post by Flighty

Mate Im not moving to ANYWHERE. I've been in this residence for over a decade, in the general area for most of my life and I have ancestors in a historical cemetery in this area dating back to the mid 1800s. I doubt very much you'd tell an Aboriginal who ancestors have lived here since here since the 1800s to move. Don't be so offensive.

I was trying to be supportive and realistic in a difficult situation. Do you think the aboriginals had much of a say when the British first colonised Australia? If they did not like it we just shot them or rounded them up in little communities and fenced of there heritage after 50 000 - 100 000 years. It is good to see that we have grown up a bit since those days. There is a lot more going on than individual wants, there are significant cultural and international issues at play. If you like where you are, then say and try and work through it. If not move, Australia is a big place with many great locations around. These decisions are ones many people must make as the globalisation process continues with many costs and benefits. Lots of people are have trouble with this so if you have any other answers I would like to hear it.

The Aboriginal community of Redfern next to Sydney is one that has withstood many problems and pressures over the years from many cultural backgrounds. It is a testament to their culture that they have been able to hold their ground. I know things are getting difficult with such a central location to the city and with very high land prices. I hope these and other communities are able to maintain their culture, but there have been significant influences and competition as towns and cities grow. Government policy is one factor that determines where these cultural suburbs are expressed, I have not studied the issue enough to determine was other factors contribute.

I do find it troubling how you label an option to move as offensive. It is an option, if you do not like it, do not do it. This offensiveness does come across more as your opinion on integration. The genie has been out of the bottle for a very long time on integration. There is a scientific principle called diffusion where things tend to naturally distribute. Put a tea spoon of sugar in a glass of hot water and you can see this process happen. This same principle has been at play through all of recorded history with many cultures. Warfare is the other way things can go when cultures meet. With more effective transportation methods this process of integration is accelerating. Government does have a responsibility to help manage this diffusion of cultures with immigration and town planning policy. There are many complex issues and decisions involved with this, but pretending that integration can be stopped is unrealistic. There maybe some room to limit it or balance it a bit better if some things are getting out of control, expansion is also another option with skill shortages and humanitarian reasons. Since you are keen on staying where you are then I suggest you start looking at ways to can at least live next to each other.

reply to post by kwakakev



White flight is never an option. It's already happened in many suburbs in Sydney already and it has to stop.
I have no problems in my immediate vincinity, so I didn't make this personal until you made it so by telling me to move out of my area.
I'm talking about the GENERAL PROBLEM here. So talk GENERALLY or please don't address me at all.
Your stabbing around trying to apply this to me personally and it won't work from here on in.

I stick by original post that integration doesn't work, so let them have the suburbs they have already conquered.
And leave the rest of us in peace to get on with our lives.
That's my opinion on the matter and I'm not changing it.

reply to post by Flighty


I have provided some options for consideration, I have not told you to do anything so please do not put words in my mouth. Unless your name is Scott Morrison? To make this debate general can we please take out opinion as well and just deal with the facts. I am sticking to my facts that integration is not an option. Wether you love it, hate it or just blasé to the fact it is an organic process. Ants integrate their surroundings into their nets and make new ants. Plants integrate the soil, water, sun and pollen to make new plants. Factories integrate nuts, bolts and many other widgets to make cars and other stuff. People integrate the food they eat into their cells. Cities integrate peoples and cultures to grow, support and manage the greater population. When integration is to fail, is to stop working, it is to initiate death. If multiculturalism is to fail then it is a declaration of war.