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OZ MP - "inability" of Muslim migrants to integrate. Finally the debate gets some publicity.

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posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 12:49 AM
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They come in masses living in our "Civilized Countries"
But they stick to their religious believes.





posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 12:52 AM
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reply to post by mungodave
 


Well, not really. He claimed that they have come to the UK and are legislating their way of life into ours. This is not the case and would dearly love to be shown any evidence to the contrary.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:23 AM
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Originally posted by mungodave
reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 



Why there?

Canberra is the seat of government in this country.

Are you saying native Australians should have the final say?

This 5th gen Aussie pays enormous taxes and always has, just to enjoy his own country.

And to have an opinion.


As I've often found myself explaining on ATS, you certainly have a right to your opinion. However you have no right to have that opinion seriously considered or treated as anything remotely resembling a valid or meaningful argument. Your right to free speech begins and ends with your (probably overused and underconsidered) ability to vent waste gasses through the vibrating flaps in your larynx. Your audience is then free to use their own variety of honks and whistles to tell you what a moron they think you are.

Point is, YOUR ancestors did not assimilate to the local culture. YOU are not assimilating to that culture, either. So long as you exist as an isolated immigrant clump that refuses to accept and integrate into your lives the culture and history of the native people of your chunk of Gondwanaland, you can't really complain when someone fails or refuses to integrate to yours.

And frankly what I've seen of Australian "culture" gives me a pretty clear message of why someone might not be too keen on integration.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:36 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by mungodave
reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 



Why there?

Canberra is the seat of government in this country.

Are you saying native Australians should have the final say?

This 5th gen Aussie pays enormous taxes and always has, just to enjoy his own country.

And to have an opinion.


As I've often found myself explaining on ATS, you certainly have a right to your opinion. However you have no right to have that opinion seriously considered or treated as anything remotely resembling a valid or meaningful argument. Your right to free speech begins and ends with your (probably overused and underconsidered) ability to vent waste gasses through the vibrating flaps in your larynx. Your audience is then free to use their own variety of honks and whistles to tell you what a moron they think you are.

Point is, YOUR ancestors did not assimilate to the local culture. YOU are not assimilating to that culture, either. So long as you exist as an isolated immigrant clump that refuses to accept and integrate into your lives the culture and history of the native people of your chunk of Gondwanaland, you can't really complain when someone fails or refuses to integrate to yours.

And frankly what I've seen of Australian "culture" gives me a pretty clear message of why someone might not be too keen on integration.


If you could look beyond your own broken record to the wider world, you'd still be on topic. The past, the past, the past!!! Me me me. OVER IT!
edit on 19-2-2011 by CarpenterMatt because: Pushed the wrong button!



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:49 AM
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reply to post by Melbourne_Militia
 


" The Barcelona mosque is unique because it is a public project funded by Spanish taxpayers. Saudi Arabia built the “great mosques” in the Spanish cities of Madrid, Malaga, Marbella and Fuengirola, has been accused of using the mosques and Islamic cultural centers in Spain to promote the Wahhabi sect of Islam dominant in Saudi Arabia. Wahhabism rejects all non-Wahhabi Islam, any dialogue with other religions and any opening up to other cultures. By definition, Wahhabism also rejects the integration of Muslim immigrants into Spanish society. "


thelastcrusade.org...


The LAST Crusade Indeed....



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:32 AM
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reply to post by CarpenterMatt
 


Doesn't this apply to you and your ways ? These are new people with new customs - perhaps you need to get over the way things were and move on ?



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:38 AM
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The reason new immigrant communities congregate is to create a sense of security and well being. It is an incredibly scary thing coming to a new community. Why all the rage against Muslims ? Well, Italians have communities, as do the Vietnamese, Greeks and every other wave of immigrants - why are you not jumping up and down about this ?

If you were to travel to London you would understand that there are HUGE communities of Aussies only, HUGE communities of KIWI only, etc, etc ? Do these people fail to assimilate ? No, they feel comfortable amongst their own, they have a sense of home. They are already living in another country, they are engaging fully with that country and simply trying to create some sense of their past, their identity and their culture. What is wrong with people having other cultures ? What is wrong with people remembering who they are, where they are from, there customs ? What is wrong with living near by to friends, family, loved ones and community ?

I see nothing wrong with other peoples cultures - if you do then perhaps it would be worthwhile trying to find out why you find other cultures so offensive.

As for the original article - written in a MURDOCH (FOX NEWS) publication, it is a slant on what the true story is - it was leaked by a senior Liberal Front bencher that they were going to try and use Muslims as an issue to stir up voter angst for the next election. Seems to be working very well for conservatives in Europe.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:58 AM
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I am over all this fear mongering rhetoric trying to validate this ongoing illegal war. Do you want to know what failed multiculturalism means? WW3, big bombs, scorched earth with nothing but cockroaches and underground bunkers remaining. The global economy is going through a real hard and sensitive time with some very serious and deep challenges to confront. If we as a peoples and collection of cultures cannot sort this mess out then money will collapse, no more trade, no more 7/11, no more society.

Ok, there are some issues with the statistics for some new immigrants, well do your bloody job and stop trying to past the buck Scott Morrison. You know you have now been tagged as the next Pauline Hanson, expect a job in these Muslim communities coming up.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:15 AM
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I no longer think integration is the way to go.
I think what really should happen is let them have their suburbs but also let the Anglos have their suburbs that are no go zones to them too and let everyone live in peace how they want to.
Anything else IS A WASTE OF TIME. It's been proven time and time again.

Also because of the high number of offspring that they have once they are here, their initial immigration numbers should be way lower initially to counter act it to keep it more balanced.
edit on 19-2-2011 by Flighty because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:23 AM
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reply to post by CarpenterMatt
 


The past is never the past. The past is the same road you walk in the present, and the same road you'll be on in the future. If you try to ignore where you've been, you just end up being clueless of where you are and where you're going. Most people understand this perfectly well, that what happened then is relevant now, and will always be relevant in some way. Those who try to remain ignorant of and dismiss the past, are always those who have the most to lose by facing the truth of where they come from, and realizing where they're going.

The wider world is far beyond the perceptions of someone like yourself, who can't even see past their own feet.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:25 AM
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reply to post by Flighty
 




I no longer think integration is the way to go.


Integration does happen, but it is a generational thing and takes time like the meaning of indigenous. For a new comer to a new land some familiarly is a very valuable thing to them. They are much more able to communicate and understand when there are connections to there culture. There is lots to it and many ways to go. Some small towns have embraced a little diversity, but it depends on the immigrant as well. There are people and departments who work with these issues a lot more than me. Just don't expect too much change overnight.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:41 AM
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reply to post by kwakakev
 


Yeah I appreciate what you are saying, but it NEVER ENDS.
There will never be a point in time when we are all integrated because immigration will never cease long enough for everyone to catch up enough to all be on the same page.

I think people are beginning to get tired of the constant disruption to our lifestyles and way of life with each new group that comes here. They should be brought up to speed BEFORE they get here so the general population don't have to constantly wear the consequences of their ignorance, like we have over the last 4 decades.


edit on 19-2-2011 by Flighty because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 05:06 AM
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reply to post by Flighty
 


Life is a dynamic thing constantly changing. From all my travelling around no two places are exactly the same. I know diversity can be a very challenging thing at times but these are the cards we have been dealt. As for time, some science indicates we have a few more million at least years left in the Earth. As for the universe the life span is a lot longer, I am still undecided on if it does end or not.

As for your situation, there will be some community groups around to aid with the settlement issues if immigrants are common to your area. Some churches play a role, perhaps some government body could help point you in the right direction if you feel you have something to offer on this issue. If it does feel like your suburb has been invaded by another culture and you are having difficulty with it then I suggest you start thinking about moving to another suburb. In the larger cities it is common for different cultural communities to establish themselves in certain areas.

I can see your point with an education program for new immigrants to assist with the culture shock they experience. Movies would be a good medium as some do have trouble with reading and writing.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox

Originally posted by mungodave
reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 



Why there?

Canberra is the seat of government in this country.

Are you saying native Australians should have the final say?

This 5th gen Aussie pays enormous taxes and always has, just to enjoy his own country.

And to have an opinion.


As I've often found myself explaining on ATS, you certainly have a right to your opinion. However you have no right to have that opinion seriously considered or treated as anything remotely resembling a valid or meaningful argument. Your right to free speech begins and ends with your (probably overused and underconsidered) ability to vent waste gasses through the vibrating flaps in your larynx. Your audience is then free to use their own variety of honks and whistles to tell you what a moron they think you are.

Point is, YOUR ancestors did not assimilate to the local culture. YOU are not assimilating to that culture, either. So long as you exist as an isolated immigrant clump that refuses to accept and integrate into your lives the culture and history of the native people of your chunk of Gondwanaland, you can't really complain when someone fails or refuses to integrate to yours.

And frankly what I've seen of Australian "culture" gives me a pretty clear message of why someone might not be too keen on integration.


No offense, TheWalkingFox, but as a casual bystander here I find your general tone here to be overtly confrontational. It leads me question whether your overall aim is to foster healthy debate, or stifle it through a campaign of vague (but present) form of trolling. If one intends to support their arguments in this manner then is it really surprising if people choose to complain or even ignore them altogether?
edit on 19-2-2011 by Ross Cross because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 05:47 AM
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double post :s
edit on 19-2-2011 by y0uneedmt because: double post



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 05:47 AM
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Here's my two cents on muslim integration in our society, based on personal experiences, what i know of their religion & history.

First of all, muslim's in Australia aren't very friendly. I've come to this conclusion because
a) very few of them smile
b) the numerous occasions on which i've gone out of my way to say 'hello' or 'good day' to a muslim i've been looked down upon & ignored
c) even when i don't go out of my way to say hi to them, they still look at me the same and ignore me.

Now, if these people were just silent all the time it wouldn't be an issue to me. Unfortunately, they talk to each other. They complain, they hate and they plot; happiness is the only infidel in their eyes.

Australia's stance on the matter is WEAK, PATHETIC & SICKENING. A woman was gang raped by more than 10 muslim men a few years ago, does anyone from Australia remember what happened? Just in case you've forgotten, our PM allowed the leader of muslims (or whatever the hell the pig is titled) onto our television screen to speak a few words to his followers.Here's the basic gist of what he said in relation to the dude's who raped her :

-Australian women should not be allowed to wear bikinis on the beach
-If Australian women choose to do so this makes them 'meat'
-'Meat' can be raped by Muslim men, and they should not feel bad because the women are teasing them.

'Bilaf Skaf' was one of the supposed 14 attackers names, heres a link regarding the case
www.smh.com.au...

He was also let off many years of his conviction by our government.

In conclusion, anyone who justifies the actions of these inbred fools deserves the same fate as the women they mutilate. And as for the women in their religion, i feel like walking up to them and being like

'DO YOU WANNA GET STONED?'



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 06:08 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by CarpenterMatt
 


The past is never the past. The past is the same road you walk in the present, and the same road you'll be on in the future. If you try to ignore where you've been, you just end up being clueless of where you are and where you're going. Most people understand this perfectly well, that what happened then is relevant now, and will always be relevant in some way. Those who try to remain ignorant of and dismiss the past, are always those who have the most to lose by facing the truth of where they come from, and realizing where they're going.


There's a difference between acknowledging the past & binding it to yourself like a manacle. It's obvious we humans do this very well & to our detriment I believe. Too much holding on & not enough letting go.



The wider world is far beyond the perceptions of someone like yourself, who can't even see past their own feet.


Is that so oh wise & all knowing sage? If only I could be in your presence & I would grovel at your feet for the keys to enlightenment.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by Aristophrenia
reply to post by CarpenterMatt
 


Doesn't this apply to you and your ways ? These are new people with new customs - perhaps you need to get over the way things were and move on ?


We have a nice history of cultural integration from many cultures. Unfortunately its obvious the Muslim situation is not following the same pattern here in Australia or in any of the other Western countries. If you'd care to do some reading as I suggested or look into the unfolding problems of other Western countries, you will have a clearer understanding of why many people are uncomfortable. I don't need to "get over" this social re-engineering of my country, & the majority of Australian's like the ideals & values we hold & unapologetically have an expectation newcomers should integrate, not isolate themselves entirely. It is clear that Muslim immigrants are not prepared to do that.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 06:34 AM
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reply to post by St-Patrick
 





The first question we have to ask ourself is:
When muslims immigrate in a new country do they really have the sincere intention to integrate in their new community ?

I don't think so


This statement is true of ANY immigrant today.

All of a sudden across the world we have all this "multi-culturism" crap. When my grandparents immigrated they LEARNED English and became citizens. They encouraged their children to become completely integrated and that includes my MUSLIM grandfather. My parents took on the culture of their new homeland completely. Today we have immigrants who never bother to learn English and EXPECT their new home to accommodate THEM. If they are so fond of their own culture let them go back home!

WORSE "multi-culturism" is a death trap for a nation. It is no wonder those in favor of a global government use it to destroy us from within.


...Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall and that 'An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide.'"

"Here is how they do it," Lamm said: (First) ;"Turn America into a bilingual or multi-lingual and bi-cultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict, and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual.

"The historical scholar Seymour Lipset put it this way: 'The histories of bilingual and bi-cultural societies that do not assimilate are histories of turmoil, tension, and tragedy.' Canada, Belgium, Malaysia, Lebanon all face crises of national existence in which minorities press for autonomy, if not independence. Pakistan and Cyprus have divided. Nigeria suppressed an ethnic rebellion. France faces difficulties with Basques, Bretons, and Corsicans."

Lamm went on: (Second
"Invent 'multi-culturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds..... www.rense.com...




posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 07:36 AM
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Thanks for everyones contribution to this thread. I kno its a heated topic around many bbq's in Australia, even ones from 1st generation Aussies such as myself.


Originally posted by mungodave
I have no issues with multi-culture, but a process must be in place to force integration.


Mungo, to be honest, even as a immigrant myself I totally and wholeheartedly agree with you...thou this is something that should have been in effect from day one of the immigration policy....theres should have been a quota to how many peoples from a particular background can settle in any one area.

Its proven that if immigrants settle in areas where there is a high percentage of the same immigrants then they will not learn the language of the country they settle in anywhere near as quickly or as opposed to if they were forced to settle in an area where there was more Australia's or even people from other nationalities other than their own then they will be forced to learn the local language ASAP to learn to communicate with everyone.

This like I said should have been done from day one....unfortunately we are beyond this at this point in time....force integration isnt going to help resolve the urban ghetto's that many of our nations capital cities have developed.



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