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Another example of cheap Chinese junk. Lead acid batteries.

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posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 06:48 PM
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I am going to post this because I just found it hard to believe someone in the manufacturing field would try this.

This involves sealed lead acid batteries. The ones that are used on computer UPS systems, electric wheel chairs, golf carts exec.

I had one fail rather early. Pulled it out of the unit. And it was a Chinese TAIYUAN ATTiger brand. Size was labeled 17AH. Same general construction as most other 18AH lead acid batteries.

But what I found odd was how light it was……..?????????

I know they are improving stuff all the time. You know. Lighter better stronger…… But this one was real light…….. So, I decided to cut it open to see why it was so light….

The ultimate “Don’t try this at home!” warning……..

I was expecting to extremely thin lead plates or something….. but what I found just left me dumbfounded. They had left plaits out!!!!!! The normal complement should be 7 plates, but they only had 4 in the battery. They filled in the rest of the space with fiberglass separators. The total capacity of the battery was actually about 9AH.





What gets me, is that the majority of the cost of production goes into the case, acid, and assembly. You don’t save much by leaving out almost half the plates. Doing that is just saving pennies, while producing a product that they know won’t meet specs.

It is like they wanted to produce a sub par product that they know is going to fail just for the fun sticking it to the consumer.

So, if your elderly grandparents or parents have a hoverround or electric wheelchair that doesn’t seem to get very far on a charge, check to see if the batteries are made in china. If they are, that may be the reason why. Then replace them with a quality US, or Japanese brand and don’t look back.




posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 06:54 PM
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Not surprised.
Early failure = early replacement = more profit$
Theres your motive.

Good job taking the time to bring this to light though. Consumers need to be warned and the companies
held responsible. I would recommend taking this to the next level by contacting whoever imports these... even possibly the attorney general (I think if I remember correctly).
edit on 18-2-2011 by SnakeShot because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 07:38 PM
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reply to post by SnakeShot
 


I don’t think it’s worth contacting the AG over it. I am pretty sure they already know about such crap.



I am just posting it as a real world example to the people on the board.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 11:49 PM
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Originally posted by Mr Tranny
I don’t think it’s worth contacting the AG over it. I am pretty sure they already know about such crap.


I am just posting it as a real world example to the people on the board.
If it's really marked 17AH but it's really only 9AH, then that's fraud, and they may not know about it, and it's actionable.

They would probably need to send one to a lab to have it tested to see if it's really 17AH or not, as your photos may suggest it isn't, but they don't really prove it. It does look pretty bad, they might not know about it and if enough people let them know then they might start an investigation.

Are you getting longer time between recharges with a true 18AH replacement battery?


XL5

posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 05:23 AM
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The thicker the plate, the more it can stand being discharged (deep cycle). The slimmer plates will be packed tightly and give you more peak amps (starting battery). Also, the amp/hour rating is normally measured for 20 hours, not 1. So if the battery was 20AH you would measure it by drawing 1amp over 20 hours in the case of a 17AH battery you would draw 0.85A for 20 hours. They may have misslabled it too. IMO lead acid batteries are very over priced.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:07 AM
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i would think that the company producing these has skimped not only on the plates, but by reducing the gross weight of the product, save on transportation costs as well.
f



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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Modern SLA (sealed lead acid) batteries are categorized by capacity rankings. Each capacity ranking has an industry standard form factor. The is because based on current technology, that is the smallest area you can fit that capacity of battery into.

All 17/18AH batteries look the same. Same height, same depth, same length. A 33AH battery has about the same height and length as the 18 AH batteries but it has about twice the depth. On and on.

Standards for a capacity in it’s accompanying form factor are…….

20Hr discharge rate equal or greater than spec when new.
Cycle life until 60% capacity remaining at 100%DOD is……..200 cycles.
Cycle life until 60% capacity remaining at 30%DOD is……..1000 cycles.

And to achieve those specs, you have to pretty much fill out the space available. That is because no mater who makes it, the laws of the universe are the same, and it will take a specified amount of material to do it.

Considering that they have only half the number of active areas as should be, that tells me that the unit will only have half the capacity that it’s spec dictates.

And another problem they bring about with how they constructed it is plate bending. Normally all lead acid batteries have an odd number of plates in each cell. That is because of a peculiar habit of the positive plate. When lead peroxide grows on the side of the plate, it causes that side to swell some. So, if you have a positive plate with only one active side, then it will bend and buckle when ever you charge or discharge it. You have to have every positive plate bordered by two negative plates so that both sides will be active, to avoid buckling. The first plate and last plate in the cell is always negative. Something you can not have with 4 plates. Thus, you guarantee that you will have plate buckling and breakage.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 10:59 AM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


China doesn't hold the patent for producing substandard goods. Hell American build quality is pretty much regarded as a joke by the rest of the world but I digress. Fact is, the vast majority of every day items are produced in China. The keyboard you used to type out this thread, probably made in China. Yet you managed to post a topic without your text coming out as smiley faces or it exploding in your face giving you a querty smile in the process. The monitor you're staring at while reading this, probably made in China, but I bet your eyeballs don't feel like they are being fried in their sockets and I also doubt it's giving you face cancer as you sit there reading. Your TV, China. DVD player, China. Stereo system, China. Most things manufactured in China work just fine and are of excellent quality so cherry-picking fakes and attempting to use them as some sort of whipping stick, well, its pretty fail. Next time buy from a reputable distributer.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by quackers
reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


China doesn't hold the patent for producing substandard goods.


You got that right. The title of the post is wrapped in stereotype/prejudice, even if the OP doesn't realize it. Those damned Chinese, making cheap goods for us westerners. Those damned Arabs, always wanting a Jihad, Those damned Americans, always trying to sell their weapons. Those damned Canucks, being to damned polite



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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Don't knock the "Chinese" I assure you it is the manufacturing owners and their bottom line that is the originator of this crud. Geographically China yea. But who buys it and keeps buying it? Really, who is SOLD this stuff. It is a whole system. It is a system. All of the parts work together and it is a system. The Internet kinda threw a monkey wrench in the mix because now common complainers can find each other and concertedly cause big changes.
edit on 19-2-2011 by yoesse because: correct misspell



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by quackers
Next time buy from a reputable distributer.


I didn’t buy it……. I fix the crap that other people buy. That is my job.

The SLA brands I try to stick with as replacments are……

Power sonic.
Panasonic.
GNB
CSB



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


GNB/Exide have production facilites in, wait for it, China
Power Sonic have production facilities in, hold the phone, China.
Panasonic, yep, China.
CSB, well what do you know its a bloody Chinese company.

C'mon you gotta laugh.




posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 12:53 PM
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Next time you have a standard c battery cut it open and you will find just a standard aa battery wrapped in a larger casing. So I would say its not uncommon for them to just change the pretty cover and leave the internals the same as the cheaper model. Your really just buying the name or a pretier package.

And whay does this d battery just have a c battery inside with a plastic filler?




edit on 19-2-2011 by JBA2848 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by quackers
Power Sonic have production facilities in, hold the phone, China.

Um….. NO……….. they don’t…… I have been dealing with them for over a decade. They are made in the US. Yes, they have a plastic molding factory in Mexico that makes the hulls for some of the batteries that they assemble here in the US. And they have a europen branch with production and sales for that area.

www.power-sonic.com...

Now you don’t want to get power sonic confused with Powersonic industries. Which does have factories in china.

www.powersonic.net...


Originally posted by quackers
GNB/Exide have production facilites in, wait for it, China


GNB is a US native company. It use to be called “Gould Storage Battery”’ before it changed it’s name to GNB then was taken over by excide.

And it does not have factories in china. Here is their production locations.

Exide's Worldwide Facilities


Data as of 5 November 2010


Transportation

USA/North America
Bristol, Tennessee
Florence, Mississippi
Manchester, Iowa
Salina, Kansas
Europe
Azuqueca, Spain
Fumane, Italy
Manzanares, Spain
Poznan, Poland
Romano di Lombardia (BG), Italy
South Asia
Gandhinagar, India
Pacific Rim
Adelaide, Australia

GNB Industrial Power

USA/North America
Columbus, Georgia
Fort Smith, Arkansas
Kansas City, Kansas
Europe
Bad Lauterberg, Germany
Büdingen, Germany
Castanheira do Ribatejo, Portugal
Horten, Norway
La Cartuja, Spain
Lille, France
Pacific Rim
Padstow, Australia
South Asia
Bangalore, India
Middle East
Dubai, United Arab Emirates

Plastics

USA/North America
Lampeter, Pennsylvania
Europe
Peronne, France

Recycling

USA/North America
Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Canon Hollow, Missouri
Frisco, Texas
Muncie, Indiana
Reading, Pennsylvania
Vernon, California
Europe
Bonmati Girona, Spain (Oxivolt)
San Esteban de Gormaz, Spain
Sonalur, Portugal
Pacific Rim
Wellington, New Zealand

Charger Facility

Europe
Trafford Park, England


Their production locations in Europe Australia and India are primarily to serve those markets. You won’t find products from those factories in the united states.


Originally posted by quackers
Panasonic, yep, China.


Panasonic is a Japanese company, and they have two production sites for lead acid batteries.
555 Sakaijyuku, Kosai, Shizuoka 430-0452, Japan

Kunminghu Street, Shenyang Economic and Technological Develpment Zone, Liaoning, 110141, CHINA

Depending on which type you buy, you will get products from one of the two.


Originally posted by quackers
CSB, well what do you know its a bloody Chinese company.


CSB is a taiwan company. It use to be made strictly in Taiwan. They made a good product.
They now have two factories in china. But I haven’t used any of their products made from those two factories yet. But considering the company, they would have someone’s hide if they tried what I had seen in that battery I took apart.

You have to remember, we are the Saudi Arabia of lead. Most lead battery products are being exported from this country. Lead acid battery production is one industry that hasn’t taken a hit in the US. A good portion of the rest of the world uses US made car batteries.

And as far as auto batteries go, the one to stick with on car batteries is Johnson Controls. They are the ones that make the Interstate batteries. They are the largest battery manufacturer in north America.

They privet label for walmart sears and a bunch of other stores.

If you go into a walmart store you will most likely see batteries from one of two companies with the walmart brand on them.

Johnson Controls.
Exide.

delco remy/Delphi use to be number 3 in the list. But they sold their battery manufacturing division to Johnson Controls.

They are two major car battery manufactures in the US. If you buy a car battery, then it is made by one of the two, unless it’s imported.

The way to tell them apart is look at the vent caps. If it has removable caps shaped octagonish (square with cut corners) then it is made by Johnson controls. Look at an interstate battery, and you will get what I mean.

If it has a square with rounded edges style cap, then it’s made by exide.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:18 PM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 



Um….. NO……….. they don’t……

Um... yes they do.

Power Sonic;
Manufacturing
Battery Manufacture
Shenzhen
CHINA


GNB is a US native company. It use to be called “Gould Storage Battery”’ before it changed it’s name to GNB then was taken over by excide.

And it does not have factories in china.


Oh really?

CHINA
Exide Technologies
Hong Kong, China
TEL: 852.3106.2668
FAX: 852.3106.0260

Exide Technologies
Beijing, China
TEL: 86.10.6510.2910
FAX: 86.10.6510.2912


CSB is a taiwan company.


Do you know where Tiawan is? It is part of The Peoples Republic of China.


Panasonic is a Japanese company, and they have two production sites for lead acid batteries.
555 Sakaijyuku, Kosai, Shizuoka 430-0452, Japan

Kunminghu Street, Shenyang Economic and Technological Develpment Zone, Liaoning, 110141, CHINA

Depending on which type you buy, you will get products from one of the two.


So which ones come from their lead acid manufacturing facility in Shenyang, China then?



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by quackers

Power Sonic;
Manufacturing
Battery Manufacture
Shenzhen
CHINA


That is part of the European operations.

And I will correct my self. They have moved all US targeted production to the Mexico factory.. I will cede that point.



Oh really?

CHINA
Exide Technologies
Hong Kong, China
TEL: 852.3106.2668
FAX: 852.3106.0260

Exide Technologies
Beijing, China
TEL: 86.10.6510.2910
FAX: 86.10.6510.2912


If you actually look at the details behind those listings you will get a clearer picture. They are just trying to get an affordable product into an emerging market.
www.prnewswire.co.uk...


Beijing - Exide Technologies (NYSE: EX), the global leader in stored electrical energy solutions, and Shenyang Dongbei Storage Battery Co. Ltd., one of the largest battery companies in China, today announced that they have received official Chinese government approval to begin immediately operating their new joint venture, Exide Shenyang Industrial Battery Co. Ltd., to be located in the city of Shenyang, China. The two partners held a ceremony today in Beijing officially inaugurating business activity of the joint venture. This marks Exide Technologies' first step into mainland China in terms of local manufacturing. The joint venture, which is 65-per cent owned by Exide Technologies, is currently projected to involve a total investment of US$25 million over the next five years, with an estimated production of 100,000 medium and large network-power batteries in the first year, growing to 300,000 within the first five years.


They don’t own those factories. They are partnering with a local factory to produce a product under their name to try to establish a foothold into the Chinese market. If they manage to, and the figures make sense, then they may buy land and build a factory there to produce for the local market, but not yet.




Do you know where Tiawan is? It is part of The Peoples Republic of China.


Ummm……….I may want to remind you that there is us war ships that patrol that area because that isn’t exactly settled yet. And I don’t consider it settled yet. I no gripes buying Taiwan produced products. I support them with my dollars with out hesitation.



Panasonic is a Japanese company, and they have two production sites for lead acid batteries.
555 Sakaijyuku, Kosai, Shizuoka 430-0452, Japan

Kunminghu Street, Shenyang Economic and Technological Develpment Zone, Liaoning, 110141, CHINA

Depending on which type you buy, you will get products from one of the two.


So which ones come from their lead acid manufacturing facility in Shenyang, China then?


Small batteries that are used in emergency exit lights and small UPS systems.

Their original factory in Japan has shifted it’s focus to larger batteries for electric vehicles, standby power and motive power. If you buy a Panasonic EV battery, it is made in japan.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by Mr Tranny
 


I was simply making the point that just because a particular product comes from China does not necessary mean it is of substandard quality. Even companies you yourself use have operations there and obviously those companies stake their reputations on the quality of their products wherever they are manufactured, and that includes China. Why people continue to generalize all Chinese goods as being inferior is beyond me because it simply isn't true. In fact I would suggest substandard goods are in the minority, as they are in just about every other country.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 07:02 PM
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If these are in electric wheel chairs,then the taxpayers are getting ripped off as most of these are bought under medicare for the elderly or disabled.

A good built deep cycle battery should last for over 20 years if properly charged.
not 1000 recharges.

The mine i worked at had a electric mine locomotive with a industrial deep cycle battery that went into service in 1969.
It was still operating and hauling rock from the mine in 2003.

What i have seen is the average life span of batteries has dropped by half every 20 years.

There are batteries (nickel-iron Edison batteries )out there that have been running for over 100 years.
the Wells Auto Museum (Wells, Maine)has a 1908 Baker Electric car that is still running on the original Edison batteries

I first started working on battery powered equipment in 1970 in the Navy and have worked as a electromotive equipment mechanic ever since.
The trade covers every thing from electric wheel chairs to electric cars. including electric starting systems.
anything that has a battery hooked to a motor.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:32 PM
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reply to post by quackers
 


The problem with your point is it is invalid. I am not talking about a US or Japanese branded product made in china with US or Japanese company oversight. I am talking about a Chinese branded product made in China. With no outside oversight by a larger multinational.

The problem with this battery isn’t quality control. If that was what you thought I was implying then you missed the point. A Chinese factory with US/japan oversight may or may not have poor quality control, or products that fail from manufacturing defects, but that is not what I am even discussing here.

This isn’t a manufacturing defect. This is straight out intentional effort to ship a substandard product by intentionally leaving stuff out while knowing that it is going to cause problems for the users.

A US, Japanese or Taiwanese company would be taken to the cleaners if they shipped a product like that. But products like that pour from Chinese based companies all the time. It isn’t the first time I have seen Chinese branded stuff like that, and it won’t be the last.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by quackers
In fact I would suggest substandard goods are in the minority, as they are in just about every other country.
Perhaps that's true, but it glosses over that it's a much larger minority and the minority is a much larger problem in China. You can buy garbage in China that you can't even find ANY western country will make. For example, if you wanted to put lead paint in toys in a western country it would be really hard because it's so hard to find paint with lead in it, but it's not hard to find leaded paint in China.

But the best factories in China are as good as the best factories anywhere in the world, I've been to both types of factories in China, evaluating their manufacturing methods.


Originally posted by Mr Tranny
This isn’t a manufacturing defect. This is straight out intentional effort to ship a substandard product by intentionally leaving stuff out while knowing that it is going to cause problems for the users.
Perhaps so, but it either meets the label specifications or it doesn't. If it doesn't meet the label specifications, then it's definitely fraudulently labeled for that reason. If they can get it to meet specs somehow by cutting back on the materials used inside, there's no law against that.

But it could be fraudulently labeled, but it would take lab tests instead of photos to prove that. It does appear they could make a lot better product if they wanted to, but as you might guess, business contracts are often awarded to the lowest bidder. so if they made the low bid by reducing the materials used, that's how they got the contract.

If it meets the Amp-hours on the label in lab tests, all you can really fault is the way the specification for the amp-hour rating is written. And if it doesn't, it's possible a recall of all their mislabeled products could be ordered.



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