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Military chaplain: Soldier's rape 'must have been God's will'

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posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by sara123123
 


Lets see those statistics. I have never even heard of an organized atheist group. That just sounds stupid.

Something tells me you don't have the stats or they are just asinine.




posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 07:03 PM
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Yet another upstanding moment for christianity. "attend church more often" NOW there is some uplifting words after getting raped by some psyco jarhead. He fogot to tell her to flip a buck in the basket before she leaves. It is storys like this that remind me why I ignore all oranized religion and follow non.I hope that poor girl finds a way to pull through.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


And if something were to "happen" to the Chaplain it would be the work of the devil , right ?



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:17 PM
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reply to post by Marulo
 


I'm not entirely sure I could me more clear than I already have been if you read the thread. Excepting the last little discourse that went a bit too far in trying to illustrate a point.

If you can't put yourself in the shoes of a person with complete faith in God who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and has a divine plan you can't understand.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM
Here is how I discuss things.

Suppose we are discussing an apple sitting on a table between us. I say to you I see a bright red shiny apple. If you then come back and say that I am being silly there is no way I could possibly see a bright red shiny apple, I have learned nothing about your point of view. I then say surely it is a bright red shiny apple, it is the shade of a fire engine. If you then retort, impossible! that is non-sense and what does a fire engine have to do with this, you are being ridiculous! I still have not learned what your point of view is, and I am growing weary of the conversations because there is absolutely no way you can crawl inside my head and tell me what I see. Attempting to do so IS ridiculous.


Well that imaginary scenario sure does sound pretty tiring. I am sorry if that is what you see. I have been trying to understand you and where you are coming from with what you give me. The fact that it contradicts itself and I notice that is kind of something I cannot just do away with in order to make this work out in your favor.

You were trying to convince me of something. I am unconvinced. Because you failed to sway me, NOW the entire discussion was pointless. The entire discussion you did not deem pointless until AFTER engaging in it fully of your own free will.

Or was this all part of your god's plan? How do you know I am not just here to ask you logical questions as a test of faith? Your god is a tricky fella ain't he?


Now, if I say I see a bright red shiny apple, and you reply well I see a bright green apple, now I have learned your perspective, and you have learned mine. The conversation can progress. Well from my view the red apple looks like it may be a Washington apple, to which you could reply well that is interesting, but to me it appears to be a Granny Smith. Neither of us is wrong, and we have learned something about each others point of view.


The apple can be tested to find the genetic markers easily identifying the specific strain. Or we could read the bag it came in or ask the person who bought it what the sign said. See, an apple of any kind is definitively and apple of that kind. Debating it would be extremely pointless. Apples are apples.

Now if you are trying to equate identifying a species of apple to whether or not claiming an omnipotent god plans for rapes to happen and should just be given that on faith it was for a bigger purpose...

...then you lost me. Do you at least see how I am trying to understand? Do you even remotely see why you are hard to follow? I am not attempting anything but to understand. If you prefer I just read your posts and star them, you are looking at the wrong person. I question things when they make little sense to me. It is a character flaw, I admit.

Then again, I am as your god made me.
He has this master plan that includes such things as rape and perhaps this exchange between us.

I find it interesting that the two posters that seem to be claiming my emotions are clouding me and all I am doing is lashing out are the two posters that seem to be "upset" or even "angry." I am simply trying to understand that rationality of holding two completely antithetical concepts in your head and being ok with it. Well, I was SIMPLY trying to. It has gotten quite a bit more complicated.


You see, when we do nothing but put people on a constant defensive about how they see things, we learn nothing of the person, why they have the view they have, or even show the decency of allowing them to develop their views through mutually valued exchange.


If you are on the defensive and that is causing this inability to communicate then I have to question why you voluntarily continue to be my emotional hostage.
You have been going right along, responding to me all this time. Now you want to frame it as me having put you on the defensive and thus clouding the issue?

Sorry, again I feel bad for making you post things in this thread. I am not sure how I am doing it but I feel ust awful about it.


I am not here to justify my views to anyone.


Then don't. I am not sure anyone said you had to.


I prefer to share my views and learn from others their view.


Same here. I have been trying to learn from you. The problem is you do not seem to like the fact that my learning involves asking questions about concepts that are quite obviously contradictory. I am not sure how school went for you but I often asked questions when things did not make sense as stated. It would have been a shame if my teachers had framed this as putting them on the defensive and thus confusing the issue instead of well...you know...clearing it up. What do I know.


When someone gets domineering and wishes to exalt their view as THE correct one to have, then I withdraw because no one can crawl inside my head and tell me what I see. I cannot do this to anyone else either.


You mean me? I never said that my view was anything but MY VIEW. This is the second time you have elevated me and my posts to some imaginary position of power that I have no desire to claim nor hold in secret. I am only here to speak for Sinnthia. Why do people on ATS respond to me as if I am the spokesperson for some group somewhere so often? That is really odd. If I knew I had this kind of power, I would have been using it.


So back to the subject at hand, I agree with you that the Chaplain should not have said such a thing to a rape victim. It is callous and uncaring and contradictory to the religious teachings of all the worlds religions. A man of the cloth is supposed to be a healer and should have focused on caring for the emotional and spiritual well being of the victim.


So...all this other stuff you were saying about a god's plan and stuff was...??

OK then. So we agree? Cool.


Why do you think that he was in the wrong?

With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 19-2-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)


Basically for the same reasons you do which is why I am more perplexed now than ever.

I do have a more specific gripe with the issue as stated and as has been defended by both Christian defenders and those playing the role alike in this thread though. It is belittling, dismissive, and condescending.

It takes this very violent and horrible PERSONAL experience and turns it into a simple cog in a machine that for all its polution, serves a greater purpose in the end.

It takes this event and instead of addressing it as an issue that needs healing and time and to be dealt with, and pushes it aside as something to just be accepted as a necessity of omnipotent planning. No more consideration needed because "God" knows what he is doing.

It assumes that the audience (the rape victim) is not intelligent enough to at least wonder why any ALL LOVING, ALL KNOWING, ALL POWERFUL being would not be able to come up with a plan that maybe did not include people being raped.

I know the idea of a world without rape is purely fantasy but then again...

so is the idea of an all loving, all knowing, all powerful being.

Anything else? Please put me on the defensive if that helps you learn something from me. I am not intending to be a vampire but I cannot help that people lay down before me, neck splayed, inviting me in, then cry about how mean I am for taking them on their own terms. Shoot away, slugger. I am an open book. Just do not ask personal details that will not help you learn anything other than personal details. Know what I mean?



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 08:42 PM
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Originally posted by Jinglelord
Whoa whoa whoa!

It just occurred to me I'm probably wrong in several places, am saying things completely wrong, and the point I was originally trying to make got completely lost in my petty little back and forth. I was trying to invoke hostility and I succeeded, I feel bad and I apologize.

The problem is I was trying to convey a viewpoint I only partially agree with and debating for the sake of debate.

The one and only point I am trying to convey here is that I feel it is possible the Chaplain is getting a bum rap and what he said has been misinterpreted. So what do I do? I start spouting without being clear and trying to use emotionally driven arguments I am not skilled enough to pull off.

I'll try to remain more focussed in the future.


How does it feel to be the person I probably see most eye to eye with at the moment?

If you were just trying to be provacative, play devil's advocate, or just exagerate the point to amplify a point, that is all good and fine. I will respond in kind though to whatever comes my way. I think I understand so let me try to concentrate on this.


The one and only point I am trying to convey here is that I feel it is possible the Chaplain is getting a bum rap and what he said has been misinterpreted.


I absolutely agree with you.

Maybe you are skilled enough to pull it off, you just are not misogynistic and myopic enough to really commit? Perhaps there is an underlying sense of decency that prevented you from taking it to the levels it would need to get to in order to truly play that role out? Perhaps I am reading something else into it. Either way, thanks and I thin you and I are on common ground.

I admit that we have basically zero context. We have no idea what religion chaplain he was. I believe the US military recognizes about 150 different religions. Granted, many are deviations of a greater theme but it does add to the pool of variables for the sake of reality here. We also really have nothing other than this woman's word. I can admit that people lie and people imagine things. Maybe the Chaplain is getting a bum rap. Maybe he does not even exist.

You and I

Me and you

Right here? We together on this much?

For me it could have ended there. I responded with my initial reaction to the story as given, even assuming it was true. My reaction was to the story and the reality of what DID in fact happen. It is a convoluted story.

After she was raped, Havrilla had to just sit and deal with it while they "investigated." This means exactly that. She went through a great deal of emotional issues and one circumstance lead to her gaining a great deal of weight shortly after this incident took place. Obviously, being in the military, there are standards she needed to meet. She was put on a weight training course and was ordered to lose the weight, "Get fit" again as it were. While they were "invstigating" this rape, she had to report to someone during her weight training on a regular basis to be judged for fitness. Guess who they made her report to?

THE SUSPECTED RAPIST!

That is right. While they were investigating, they ordered her to report to the man she said raped her on a regular basis so that he could LOOK AT and JUDGE her body.

That really rubs me the wrong way. I tried not to react as emotionally as I would like because the details really get my blood boiling.

So while you and I were actually agreeing without having realized it yet, a buch of Christian spokespeople slipped into the thread and volunteered to explain why what the Chaplain said was maybe not so bad in the eyes of their Christian god.

That is when this went from the details of this real chaplain to...

..."Oh no you di'n't!"

From there we were off to the races with these volunteers from the god Jehovah trying to explain it away. Now you see, some of them are crying foul because they have been quoted and replied to. If we all just stuck to the details of this story and what is confrimable then this would probably have gone a very different way.

If you really want to poke the bear though and make some other point that is aside the distraction this thread has NOW become, please do. Reading "non-violent rape" almost seems refreshing at this point. I guess we all get what we ask for huh? I should have never come into this thread dressed like this in the first place.

edit on 19-2-2011 by Sinnthia because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by Tayesin
reply to post by Sinnthia
 

Hi,

You do not see it.

You still ADD words to what I say... do you get that?


Not really because it is rather dishonest actually. I quoted you in full and in context and then replied accordingly. It was you that then had to go back and cherry pick from your own post in order to make a point that you could only make by cherry picking from what you had already said. I added nothing. Saying you do not mean something, and then going ahead and saying it anyway does not fool anyone that I know.

It is like saying "I am not racist but I hate all asian people for no reason other than being asian. What? I said I am not racist!!!!"

Yeah, sorry, no.


You ADD words to mine.. it Changes the meanings I intend... and then You argue against those Perceptions.. YOUR Perceptions.. not mine.. not what I said.


You are going to have to point out to me where I added anything to your words. If you do not like my responses, try again. Do not sit there and cry no fair because I quoted you in full. If you do not like how your own words are used in full context, that is not my issue.


Do you see that yet?


You mean because without demonstrating how or when but by merely repeating it I was supposed to then see it?


All your arguing so far in this thread has been a case of You doing the same thing to most posters.... mincing the words so it apppears to fit your Belief about the poster's rely.


If you say so. I would really like for one of you to help me understand this concept of being held prisoner to my unfair tactics. How did I become so powerful? It seriously begs the question as to why there is so much of this voluntary engagement that springs forth like fungus in hopes of sprouting petals only to wither into the twisted lamentations of stockholm reasoning. Like, for real now. I am not forcing any of you to respond to me for post after post after post so to eventually cry that the playing field has ALWAYS been tainted and therefore unworthy of even giving fair competition a thought. You came onto the field and asked for a pass. You cannot now sit back and cry about it was always tainted and you always knew it. Neither of you. Well, you can try.


Time to put the brain in neutral.. stop thinking you are right.. and just read with Open Eyes...Because You are Missing the Points completely.


My brain does not have a neutral setting. It is always in one degree of drive or another. Perhaps you can teach me that trick. As far as being "right" goes...

Again, that is a power that some posters are assigning to me. You cannot give me power I do not have and then complain about how I use it. I do not think I am right about anything in this thread. I think I am Sinnthia about everything in this thread. If you believe that what I think is right or wrong, that is for you to worry about.


Your emotional response (A Reaction) is Blinding You. Stoping you from seeing the Simplicity on offer.


No, it is not. I ran out of emotions as far as this branch of this discussion goes quite some time back. I am not sure what simplicity you speak of. You also seem to believe that while telling me I need to stop thinking I am right, what I should really do is shut up and listen to you until I admit that you are right. I know, I am adding words again aren't I? It is called a response. You add words when you respond. Get that?


I do hope you are able one day to Perceive without having to Twist it to Fit Your Beliefs.

Be Well.


Yeah I really do not think you hope anything about me other than that I will shut up or agree. Yes, this is fully and assumption but I find people that finish with such empty platitudes so clearly belied by the very content in juxtapostion to it are usually saying it out of the wrong side of their face.

The above is what is an ADMITTED ASSUMPTION. You can tell me I am wrong but at least you cant say I twisted or added anything there.


So at this point, I know longer even understand where it is the people that were defending this Chaplain's words acutally stand on anything other than that they think I have forced them to respond to me multiple times on what they always knew to be unfair grounds shifted in my favor. I guess that is good to know too but it seems way off topic at this point.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 09:03 PM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


I like to agree with people who are obviously thinking so it feels good to agree.

I think what the Chaplain said could indeed be interpreted in a million different ways and we have no idea nor will we likely ever know what his true motives were for saying them. I saw everyone trying to say he was evil out of hand with no thought towards what he could have really been trying to say or how well what he said was actually interpreted.

It just bugs me when people get attacked as evil for saying something with no regard for where they were coming from, what they believe, how they said it and without any real proof as to what they said.

Perhaps the biggest confusion is that this woman did have a horrible event happen to her. Justice will need to be served for this one way or the other. The rapist will need to pay a debt to society and hopefully a larger moral debt as he gets older in the form of regret and grief for his actions. Somehow this man's actions are I believe being mixed up with a Chaplain's words. I doubt severely the Chaplain is condoning the actions of the rapist, (possible but I doubt it) he is more likely engaging in failed attempt at consolation.

Now if that agrees with your take we really do see eye to eye and I will laugh at myself even harder for engaging.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 09:36 PM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


I was going to reply to you line by line, but it was getting quite lengthy. So, let me just say thank you for putting things in perspective. I was reading into your words more than I should have. You are quite bright and definitely a challenge.

God is all powerful, all loving, everywhere. God is within each and everyone of us.

So why then do we have rape, murder, etc?

We are products of our environment. What ever we experience growing up has a dramatic effect on how we turn out as adults. If we experience nothing but turmoil and pain, this is what we are likely to put out into the world. It is a vicious cycle that keeps on going. This is the gift of free will. We can either chose to see God within each other and love one another, or we can refuse to see God within each other and judge one another.

It isn't until mankind learns to treat each other with absolute love that we will break this cycle. Unfortunately, we have created a system that causes us to not treat each other with love. It is the system of competition. Man is not adapted to having to compete with each other for survival. We are social creatures and need social interaction, love, and compassion to develop properly. As long as we continue to have this system of competition, we will conitinue to breed hate and violence.

There are anomalies. Not everyone who is raised lovingly will be loving, and not everyone who is raised tragically will be a tragedy. For those who are unloving, we must be understanding enough to look for the reasons why and help heal what ever the problem is.

In short, God created US, God is within US, WE do not see it that way due to our own blindness caused by the harm we have suffered in the world.

Is this all part of "God's Plan"?

Call it evolution, call it social development, call it what ever you will, I say everything is in divine order. Mankind will either learn to love one another and build a better system where none have to compete for survival, or we will annihilate ourselves as we develop bigger more powerful weapons.

Would I tell this to a rape victim?

Absolutely not. I would do what needed to be done to make her or him safe and comfort her or him through the healing process, what ever that process entailed for her or him.

It is because of my beliefs that we must love one another to make the changes necessary to move to our next stage of the divine plan that I am an advocate for forgiveness. I whole heartedly believe that we need to forgive the murderers, the rapists, everyone, and work on healing each and returning them to their freedom as a loving member of society. I know it isn't going to be a cake walk, but it is an absolutely necessary step to correcting the errors of our past.

The way we are doing things now is simply unsustainable into the future.

Thank you for being patient with me and I apologise for reading your intentions incorrectly. You have a brilliant mind and it had me perplexed.

You ARE the way God made you, and he made you perfectly.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 10:03 PM
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reply to post by Sinnthia
 


Sinnthia,

No offence intended....

Are you here for the Argument? You are excellently talented in this regard.

I'm not. And I don't follow the expectations of those who are. I have assumed nothing.. despite you saying I have based on some rules of argument you follow but that I care nothing for.

When a person will not see how they twisted someone else's words to suit their argument, and then argued with the person about it.. that is Dishonesty and I want no part of it.

I wish you well.

(and when I say that I mean only and exactly that in total honesty.. not anything else you may think I am saying.

Back to the advertised topic...










edit on 19-2-2011 by Tayesin because: dyslexia



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:07 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by MikeboydUS
 



I can't begin to imagine all of the intracacies of operating a system as big as the Earth, but I do know from just running small operations and projects that what you perceive is almost never the whole story, and things that make no sense in a narrow viewpoint, make perfect sense on a broader scale.


I completely agree. Microscopic organisms are in their own world. Insects are in their own world. We are in our own world. I don't think the chain ends with us. We are like gods compared to insects and microscopic organisms, and I'm willing to bet that there's something we can't see or comprehend that compared to it, we are microscopic.
edit on 19-2-2011 by ShnogTrip because: typo



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 11:43 PM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


I don't see how some poor girl bieng raped is Gods will. Crazy moron Chaplain what a disgrace.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 12:27 AM
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Okay, so I believe this was mentioned before but I will say it one more time. All Christians and Jews believe in the old testament God and of course only Christians believe in the New Testament God. So lets look at the old Testament for a moment. There are a few but I will focus on one. The Book of Job.

Familiar with it? No? Essentially God allows Satan to kill all of Jobs kids and give him terrible boils and whatever else to test his faith.

Your telling me if God can will a man's children to be killed and given physical calamities to test his piousness this same God can't will for a woman to be raped in the eyes of a Chaplain?

Are you people for real?

The argument isn't about Christianity or Judaism which I will assume this Chaplain was one of the two, the argument is whether this is in line with how a holy man is expected to believe. Which it clearly is.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 06:41 AM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


That comment doesn't surprise me one bit. I was married to a right wing religious man many years ago. He became "spirit filled" and spoke in "tongues". I did not. He told me that he believed if a woman was "filled with the spirit", she would never be raped. The implication being that since I was not "spirit filled" according to him, that if I were raped, it would be my fault.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by leaualorin
GOD AND RAPE...


Goes together like a horse and carriage, doesn't it?

If it's not done by soldiers fighting His wars, it's done by His priests.

Still waiting for proof that this "god" is a benevolent being. Personally, I think the chaplain may be right.



posted on Feb, 20 2011 @ 07:38 AM
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Originally posted by Jinglelord
Okay, so I believe this was mentioned before but I will say it one more time. All Christians and Jews believe in the old testament God and of course only Christians believe in the New Testament God. So lets look at the old Testament for a moment. There are a few but I will focus on one. The Book of Job.

Familiar with it? No? Essentially God allows Satan to kill all of Jobs kids and give him terrible boils and whatever else to test his faith.

Your telling me if God can will a man's children to be killed and given physical calamities to test his piousness this same God can't will for a woman to be raped in the eyes of a Chaplain?

Are you people for real?

The argument isn't about Christianity or Judaism which I will assume this Chaplain was one of the two, the argument is whether this is in line with how a holy man is expected to believe. Which it clearly is.


It should be pointed out that this is not only a Judeo-Christianity belief. The same would hold true if the Chaplain was a Muslim. If he was Hindu, he would tell her that it was her Karmic debt coming back to get her, that perhaps she was the rapist in a previous life. If the chaplain was of any number of tribal traditions out of Africa, it would be her ancestors who allowed the rape because she had dishonored them somehow. If He was Budhist, perhaps this suffering was just one more thing she had to let go of on her road to enlightenment, she suffers because she desires not to suffer.

There are all sorts of conclusions as to why a man of faith would make such a statement which is supported and recorded in many faiths. Personally, I feel they are all cop outs. We like the idea of having something other than ourselves to look at when it comes to the evils of the world. Satan, suffering, ancestors, even God's Plan are all things we can point to as scape goats when things go wrong in this world.

The reality is we are living in a world WE have created. This Sister would not have been raped if we did not have a military for her to be in. We would not need that military if the world learned to share its resources equally with all. We would not have had the soldier be a rapist if we created a world were all are valued and loved from cradle to grave.

We created this mess. The Chaplain was just falling back on the same old dusty excuses we have been using since the dawn of time. It is anyone's fault but our own.

No wonder no one can believe in an all loving, ever present, deity. We fail to prove his existence by our own actions on a daily bases.

With Love,

Your Brother



posted on Feb, 21 2011 @ 12:18 AM
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Originally posted by Marulo
reply to post by sara123123
 


Lets see those statistics. I have never even heard of an organized atheist group. That just sounds stupid.

Something tells me you don't have the stats or they are just asinine.


I have no idea what you are talking about.
What stats are you demanding that I take my time to research for you?



posted on Feb, 21 2011 @ 03:52 AM
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reply to post by Jinglelord
 


Your right, I guess I am just not an idiot.



posted on Feb, 21 2011 @ 03:54 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 21 2011 @ 08:41 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



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