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Military chaplain: Soldier's rape 'must have been God's will'

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posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:39 AM
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reply to post by Wyn Hawks
 



this is REALLY about the military refusing to make male soldiers behave themselves

It could be argued that training soldiers to behave themselves, to be nice to gays, to not rape women, to be civil and humane and generally respectful of people...might not be completely compatible with having them go to foreign lands and kill people.

A dog can be trained to play nicely with children and allow them to play and jump on him. Or he can be trained to guard your house and bite intruders.

Not both.




posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by GTORick
 


The glaring error is invoking 'God's will' as an explanation, and recommending church as a viable, comforting solution.

I think you're ignoring the situation entirely. The disguised solutions above reflect similar ignorance...

This guy is just challenging the court system to do what it will. Either way, it is always the end result of 'God'...
edit on 19-2-2011 by smthngmssnghr because: added ' '



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:43 AM
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Chaplains can be from different faiths.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this Chaplain be voicing a typical Muslim position?

Do we know the religion of this Chaplain?

I had a Mormon Chaplain's wife stiff me for $3000.

Question authority.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:47 AM
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reply to post by DimensionalDetective
 


its absolutely true. god is a rapist:/
just read the bible and the koran



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:51 AM
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Originally posted by Jim Scott
Chaplains can be from different faiths.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this Chaplain be voicing a typical Muslim position?

Do we know the religion of this Chaplain?

Question authority.


He spoke of 'God'. He recommends 'church'.

Muslims can convert to Christianity to attend church, but we are talking of God and church here, hence Christianity.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 01:57 AM
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reply to post by LordBucket
 


Why are you interrupting everyone's self righteous rainbow and butterfly diatribe with good realistic logic!?

If your job is to stop people who want to turn you and all your friends into ground long pork and then come to your country and do the same to all your women and children maybe being loving and compassionate isn't the trait we're looking for.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by smthngmssnghr
 


No, I am not ignoring the situation. I replied to the chaplains actual words in an earlier post on page 4 of this thread and clearly said it was wrong. You are comparing what I said about an observation I made about the chaplains religion with how I feel about what he said. The two are not the same. Did you misconstrue my post on purpose to make it seem I was ignoring what he said?



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:24 AM
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reply to post by smthngmssnghr
 


The quote from the lawsuit is "it must have been God's will for her to be raped". The part about attending church is not even a direct quote of what she says he said. 'church' may or may not be the word used by the chaplain. At any rate you are arguing semantics now and so am I. It sounds like a guess at best either way. However, Christianity has not been named as the chaplains religion as a fact.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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reply to post by Jinglelord
 


While I agree a fighting force does not need some of those traits they do need to follow orders, the law and they should have honor. I see none of that when I read some of these stories about rape in the Armed Forces.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by Sinnthia
The reason I am taking part in this conversation is exactly that right there. I am trying to understand so I am putting myself in the shoes of a deeply religious rape victim. I might need to put myself in the shoes of an intellectually stunted religious rape victim though in order to not have a few rational thoughts sneak in.

Please tell me if I am getting it wrong. Should I be reading from the view of a deeply religous rape victim or someone who takes what they are told by men of the cloth without question?


I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of the Chaplain and why he might not be an evil person rather genuinely trying to help.

I think a deeply religious rape victim would forgive and surrender to the will of God. You think that is stupid, I agree, but a person with true faith would not question. I am not one of those people and wouldn't expect it of anyone unless they profess to be Christian, then if they don't do that they are heretics and should be excommunicated for questioning the will of their God.



Then you should be able to understand exactly where I am coming from. No matter how religious you are, that does not need to mean you are also stupid and in this case I am just assuming this woman is not stupid. So if the Chaplin were to tell me all the things you said my reaction would be the same, religious or not.

to the chaplin - "Are you trying to tell me that this god is so powerful and knows everything so he has a greater plan that I should find some safety in all while telling me that this god could not figure out a better way to make whatever point this makes without having me raped? I vote no confidence and want a god that can use bunny rabbits kissing to teach lessons. Being all powerful, that should be easy."

See, no matter how hard I try to pretend I believe in god and hear those words. I cannot reconcile omnipotent with what boils down to really crappy planning.


Look I'm trying insanely hard to be civil and mask my real opinion. How stupid does a woman have to be to join the military to fight and somehow believe that in a testosterone jar head hyped up for fighting and war male institution that her virtue would not be at serious risk? Don't want to get raped? Kick him in the you know what and bite off his tongue then stab him when you're done. THAT is a woman that should be in the military. Not the one that gets PTSD after a non-violent rape. Then goes to a chaplain hoping for what? What is a man of the cloth going to tell you? My guess is most of them are going to give the exact same line with various levels of sugar coating.

Before anyone gets angry I am not being misogynistic, realistic is the right word and obviously I'm right judging by the rash of incidences. Is it horribly wrong? Of course it is. But so is war, so is killing, so is a whole slough of things we do to keep our world running. With barely any thought I could write a page of atrocities that make her rape look like a skinned knee.

Our world is not a pretty place. It isn't supposed to be.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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I don't beleive the Chaplin said that to her. I've been a Christian all my life and I have never heard a minister or priest say such a thing. Christians don't believe that God wants women to be raped. We don't believe that going to church will keep a woman from being raped. This part of the story is too outlandish to be believed.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by sara123123
I don't beleive the Chaplin said that to her. I've been a Christian all my life and I have never heard a minister or priest say such a thing. Christians don't believe that God wants women to be raped. We don't believe that going to church will keep a woman from being raped. This part of the story is too outlandish to be believed.


Because you are Christian, you do not believe another Christian would do something bad? What kind of logic is that?

Navy Chaplain Convicted of Rape

It happens. Way to attack the victim of rape and repeated sexual assault though, Sara.
edit on 19-2-2011 by Sinnthia because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:42 AM
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reply to post by IAMIAM
 


I had to read this response a few times because you kind of seem to criss cross your own ideas so before I respond to it, I need to ask one particular question. Do you believe your god has a master plan or do you believe he gave us free will?



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by DimensionalDetective

Military chaplain: Soldier's rape 'must have been God's will'


www.rawstory.com

"He pulled her into his bed, held her down, and raped her. He also photographed the rape," it reads. Havrilla reported the incident within a month.

In February 2009, she reported for active duty training and, upon seeing her rapist, went into shock.

"She immediately sought the assistance of the military chaplain," the lawsuit reads. "When SGT Havrilla met with the military chaplain, he told her that 'it must have been God's will for her to be raped' and recommended that she attend church more frequently."

(visit the link for the full news article)





If this is a true and accurate report that chaplain should be horsewhipped.
edit on 19-2-2011 by trailertrash because: typo



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:17 AM
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Originally posted by IAMIAM
I take no offence to anything. I know the sting this topic has.

Good to know.



God did not create politicians. God creates Man. Man creates these other labels.

But that was what you said.

Originally posted by IAMIAM
My friend, God is the creator, it is all good and all present. Being all good, everything it created in this existence is good. Being all present, it is within everything in this creation politicians, murderers, rapists, trees plants, everything.

My emphasis on the part that stands out to me. Either this statement is a tad convoluted or I am missing something. It is all chicken and egg with you stating that god is within everything he creates - "politicians, murderers etc." and that those are good because he is within them because they are his creations.

Personally, it reads like this -
"See my left hand? See what it is doing? Now, look at my right hand. See my right hand? See what it is doing? Ok, now look at my left hand. Huh? Huh? Impressed yet?"

God is great. Everything he makes is awesome, even rapists.





God did not create a rapist. God created Man. Man created a rapist through what ever trauma the rapist endured before becoming a rapist.


That is a tad bit oversimplified but fine. It completely detracts from the whole "part of God's plan to be raped" idea I thought you were trying to help me understand? I believe I said it was crappy planning to use rape as a teaching tool. You seem to be saying it was good planning to let people just do whatever they wanted because what they were going to want to do was so perfectly part of that great plan, including rape.

Free will or master plan? Please pick one for me or dare explain how it could ever be both. Perhaps that is for another thread.


Yes, some are born with chemical imbalances and defects in the brain. We can detect these issues now and treat them before they become harmful to themselves and others.


Whoa whoa whoa there, cowboy. You mean interfere with your omniscient God's master plan AND that child's free will? Somes smells a touch blasphemic in these here parts. What say you?


God's master plan is for Mankind to learn to love one another.

This god that weilds rape as a teaching tool, you mean? That guy?

It is that simple. The hell we have created here is our own doing.

His plan was for his most beloved creations to create their own hell to wallow in?

Are you sure you are trying to convince me he was not a crappy planner?


We have created the systems which corrupt us. We created a dog eat dog world and then are surprised that some act like junk yard dogs. It is what WE have created with what God has given us.


I am sorry but I really am having a tough time following along as you bob between trees in this manner. God creates and has a plan but life sucks because we create and are not following that plan or that was his plan? You should REALLY never be a spokesperson for your god outside this thread. Just saying.


When I was three years ... much deeper problem.


I cut that down for brevity and not in any way to diminish the things you so bravely came clean with in that post. I also cut it down just in case you rethink your sharing and decide to edit some out for personal reasons. I would say thanks for sharing what seem to be some really troubling personal experiences. I am sure it takes bravery, even in the anonymous world of avatars and screen names. (yes I noticed your avatar is actually a photo but I am just trying to be delicate)

That said.

Seems to be quite a rough pool of baby sitters your mother had to choose from wherever you live. I would think with that level of abuse so easily found across such vastly different types of babysitters might be a symptom of a much bigger problem. Then again, it could also be even better evidence of an entirely different kind of problem; one that Michelle remembers


BUT...what is your point? How does what you shared and the result that has become YOU apply here? How does it apply to the point you are making in reference to the words of this chaplain? How does it apply to free will or your god's master plan?

You seemed to be making the case that abuse begets abuse and only love will beget love. Why are you not out advertising your facesitting babysitting then? Was it love later on that erased that abuse and therefor nullified it? Are you saying I was correct in assuming you might think it comforting to tell the rape victim that her attacker would be healed with hugs then?


It is a symptom of the world we have created.


I do not dispute that. You do. -

Originally posted by IAMIAM
My friend, God is the creator, it is all good and all present. Being all good, everything it created in this existence is good.


So God created everything and has a master plan but this rape happened because of the world we created with our free will.

Honestly. Does that make you feel good at night? If so, I am glad. It is never going to work for me. I like to think about things just too darn much. When two completely contradictory thoughts fight for space in my brain, instead of just hoping my imaginary friend knows why it wont make sense to me and just going to sleep, I get all "thinky" and junk.


I have forgiven everyone who has ever harmed me because I saw through my mother what happens when you do not. It eats you alive for the rest of your life. Me, I am healed.


I honestly do commend you for that if it is really true in your heart. I have no reason to doubt it is so and I have no problem saying that makes you a better person than me in that respect. I sometimes do hold on to anger beyond the point of it even resembling something that felt good to have. I recognize that and even agree that is nothing but detrimental.

That said...

That Chaplain would have been getting fitted for two new dental plates and after my hand healed, I would get over it and move on.




I would not say it if I did not mean it.


For some reason I believe that. Let me say that anyone that says anything ever on ATS is welcomed with at least skepticism in anything they claim to me but I do believe wholeheartedly that you do MEAN what you say. For whatever that may be worth to ya.


I do not enjoy witnessing the cruelties we do to one another every day. It tears my heart out because I know we can do so much better. The healing must start some where. Forgiveness must start somewhere. I have a daughter and one day she will have children of her own. If we do not turn this world around, what kind of world will my grand kids inherit?


I am with you there but that is so far from the original issue that I have no idea how to even approach this. Most of us on this forum spent 99% of our time discussing the 5% of life we do NOT agree on. I think most all of us agree that things like rape are bad and that we hope our offspring fair better.

Where you and I, and I feel safe in saying others, diverge on this is just exactly HOW to get there. For me, telling a rape victim to just accept that her all powerful god had a good reason for her to be raped is not going to do that. I am pretty sure that is EXACTLY the kind of thinking that helped the Catholic church become so popular with the young boys of late.

"It is God's will that you just hold it in your hand fow a minute, my child."
"It is God's will this man not be punished so that he may heal and move to a new church."
"It was God's will that this evil rear it's ugly head again to raise awareness but alas, as is also God's will that we just move this priest again. God totally promises no more rape lessons. Promse!"

God's will gets used to excuse things, not heal things. Excusing rape will not prevent it. Hugging the rapist will not reform him. Hoping you imaginary friend has a plan that includes your ability to usurp said plan and it will all work out is just downright self destructive and I guarantee your grandchildren will not thank you for sitting in the corner with your rosary beads while rapists came sweeping through town.


I hope it is one of love, and not one of torment. We must start somewhere.


I wanted to start with the victim and you seem to want to start with the rapist. He can wait.


With Love,

Your Brother
edit on 19-2-2011 by IAMIAM because: (no reason given)


Returning all that love and more, your sis - SINnthia!



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:25 AM
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Originally posted by Tayesin
Never would I dismiss such a thing. Nor do I condone such a thing. I am merely presenting a bigger picture perception for those who may be ready to See.


I understand that but what you do not seem to understand is that bigger plan involves DISMISSING this rape as a good thing for its part in that plan. It cannot really be more clear than that to me. I sometimes wonder if testicals seriosuly disrupt the ability to discuss rape, abortion, pregnancy, menstruation, etc. on a realistic level. That is not a personal attack either but a greater theme I notice among males who voice opinions on such issues.


My perception is that we have all been Rapist and Raped in our lifetimes on this world... hence Empathy comes naturally. At no time have I said anything to belittle the Experience of this Lady.


Actually you just belittled it right there by saying we are all either guilty of or victims of rape, you again relegate rape to something less than what it actually is. Rape is not a normal condition of the human experience. It is an exceptional event of great violence and to pretend that everyone automatically has a hand in it in order to be able to feel empathy is not only belittling but sickening.


I hope you may see this too.


Sometimes I wonder how religions ever get new recruits. No, I do not see that. I do not see any of what you are saying. All I see, quite honestly, is you stepping over yourself in order to both belittle and dismiss a rape.



Are you trying to make the case that it was part of God's plan or that it is just a normal condition or what? Between the two of you, I am able discern about 5 different gods here so please forgive me if I am having trouble "seeing it."



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:27 AM
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Originally posted by GTORick
The chaplain might not be Christian at all or indeed from any traditional dogmatic religion.


What type of military chaplain is not from any traditional dogmatic religion? Isn't that exactly what a military chaplain is? One who represents one of the recognized dogmatic religions?

While he may not be Christian, you seemed to not notice the Christians in this thread rushing to defend what he said as well. It cuts both ways.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by Jim Scott
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't this Chaplain be voicing a typical Muslim position?


What is a typical Muslim position? You mean archaic translations of the Koran employed by fundamentalists? Then just as much as it is a typical Christian position. I know Muslims and none of them believe they have the right to rape anyone ever under any cicumstance. I cannot say exactly the same for all the Mormons or Mennonites I have read about in local papers. Religions like Islam and Christianity actually break down into different sects.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by Jinglelord
I'm trying to look at it from the perspective of the Chaplain and why he might not be an evil person rather genuinely trying to help.


In the shoes of that chaplain you would shut your brain off and just say some words? Sorry but I would still be thinking and the moment I said something so insane, I would question the very god that cannot plan a little better and maybe use his powers for good instead of rape.


I think a deeply religious rape victim would forgive and surrender to the will of God. You think that is stupid, I agree, but a person with true faith would not question. I am not one of those people and wouldn't expect it of anyone unless they profess to be Christian, then if they don't do that they are heretics and should be excommunicated for questioning the will of their God.


As much disdain as I have for organized religion, I still like to think that some people can both be that, and intelligent. Maybe I am asking too much? Maybe it is just easier to let rapes happen?


Look I'm trying insanely hard to be civil and mask my real opinion. How stupid does a woman have to be to join the military to fight and somehow believe that in a testosterone jar head hyped up for fighting and war male institution that her virtue would not be at serious risk?


Please, stop trying. You are trying to debate the religion view with me all while professing to see religion much the way I do just so that you do not honestly admit you believe it is her fault she was raped for joining the military?



Don't want to get raped? Kick him in the you know what and bite off his tongue then stab him when you're done.


I bet you have a really comfortable chair in front of your computer. To even suggest that all the women, children, and men that are raped the world over every minute because they just did not kick someone in the balls is beyond laughable.

Rapes do not happen because the victim forgets they have knees.


THAT is a woman that should be in the military. Not the one that gets PTSD after a non-violent rape.


A WHAT??????????????????????????


I want to respond to that last sentence but I am not sure I can because it seems I got something stupid on my screen.


Then goes to a chaplain hoping for what? What is a man of the cloth going to tell you? My guess is most of them are going to give the exact same line with various levels of sugar coating.


Yeah, stupid woman seeking emotional support from her religion 3 years after the fact. She should be in jail.


Before anyone gets angry


Not sure you are real good with timing either.


I am not being misogynistic, realistic is the right word and obviously I'm right judging by the rash of incidences.


I think you need a dictionary, a stopwatch, and a treadmill.


Is it horribly wrong? Of course it is. But so is war, so is killing, so is a whole slough of things we do to keep our world running. With barely any thought I could write a page of atrocities that make her rape look like a skinned knee.


Remember that if your daughter ever gets raped. Skin both her knees and tell her to quit her blubbering. Everyone knows if women didnt want to get raped they would not go outside with their face showing. My your rhetoric sounds familar. Women get raped because they are women and should be kept tucked away. Take your fundamental Sharia ideals to another country maybe.


Our world is not a pretty place. It isn't supposed to be.


Apparently it is a sin and I should be punished for wanting it to be one though.



posted on Feb, 19 2011 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by DimensionalDetective

Are you freakin KIDDING me?!?

This is another one of those stories which literally leaves me speechless. On too many levels to even count.

As we have seen in recent stories, rape of female military employees has been an absolute EPIDEMIC.

But here we have a supposed "chaplain" literally chalk up this gal's sexual brutalization up to "god's will"?!?

Uhh, yeah, I'm sure "god" cooked up some plan for this guy to RAPE the gal, then take pictures of it.


There really isn't a whole lot I can add to this, other than we live in a really sick, and deranged world. Ugh...

www.rawstory.com
(visit the link for the full news article)
edit on 18-2-2011 by DimensionalDetective because: (no reason given)


That wanker is not a chaplain, hes a pedo with no children to torment..

you have to forgive him, his urgers are out of control..

.... he needs a bullet to the face.





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