Out of body experiences just the product of a confused mind

reply to post by PieKeeper



I would like to add that my mothers NDE was not short at all....it was 9 hours of strong intense detailed visions while her kidneys were failing. No, she was not brain dead by any means...but there was no other reasons for her to of went through the experiences she did for 9 hours besides her kidneys failing. 1 hour after her last words before she went unconscious....she had to go on life support because she was going to die.

She saw many things...and one of those things was while her eyes was open which was a matrix of energy with yellow dust that was everywhere, falling into the 'lines of energy' that went through everything. Even everyone's head had a 'energy of light' coming from their head and streaming into the 'energy lines' with the dust always moving to and fro between the lines/into the lines. When she would close her eyes, she was 'beyond' here....but with open eyes, she was here but still saw things. Saw beings by her bed...saw beings above my head.

Her last words were 'Im at the gate'. For 9 hours, she told me of other worlds.

Lets just say, I have no problem anymore with saying 'I dont know' for truly, I dont know. I embrace, the mystery of it all. I think what each person 'see's relates to them in a very personal way. First of what they personally are in need of and second, what they personally 'dream' of. So I dont think that what 'one' persons see's can be translated as a absolute truth of the 'unknown' for all. I do think, we are creators of some of what we experience and I do think that part of experiences are truly from the true creator/design that is beyond us and our personal self. While one is going to see Jesus, another is going to see a trustworthy female to guide them (example to show, we often will see, what comforts us....but the underline message is, of the 'true self's nature'). Images that take form for us, are often an image that our unconsciousness is already familiar with and that the Spirit/creator will use for us to 'experience' things beyond us.

reply to post by kaleshchand


You have to love armchair scientists, don't you? This isn't a thing that can be experimented on using 3rd dimensional thinking.

I have had many OBEs. I am not anymore special than you are, but a deep cellular change has been occurring in many human beings, myself inclusive, for many years, and for some, again myself inclusive, this has been prevalent for years. For others it is just now coming to bear. When it happens, it don't mean you are deluded, and you are not crazy, although some will assume that. I am often called a mental case, on drugs, in need of drugs, and crazy as a loon, but that doesn't bother me, so don't let it bother you either.

This happened to me last year. I didn't try to do this, it just happened. I was sitting in my easy chair in my living room, and I was alone, the others had went to town. I was watching a movie on TV, and everything got real quiet. Now this real quiet thing had happened before, preceding a real time vision was one, and there were a few more times too. This was no different.

I stood up for some reason, I couldn't remember thinking that I should get up, or anything like that. I sat back down, but thought to myself, what the hell was that? And I could have swore I caught something from the corner of my eye. Just then I stood up again, I should say I was yanked up, not all at once, or in a violent way, but forceful just the same. This time I was compelled to turn my head slightly, and I saw my body sitting in the chair, then again I sat down. The next time I was ready for it. I emptied my mind, and raised my vibrations to the highest degree that I could muster. This time I floated up from the chair, like in a dream state, but I was fully concious the whole time. I completely turned this time, and visibly saw my body sitting there. It looked asleep, like I said before, the face had a peaceful, pain free look on it. I looked down at my "body," which was in reality my Spirit, and it was glowing with a silver sheen, glimmering. I could see "clothes," and such, but realized this was just an effect of being in this condition. We create instantaneously. I could see everything in the room, but realized I could also see through it too, and then I saw the magnificence of this Universe, laid out for me in a manner that was a thing to behold. I heard a noise, our van had pulled up and stopped, and this ending it for me. I was again sitting in the chair, but the memories of the event were quite astounding to me, even though I had "been out" before. I have been out astral travelling before, and in returning have had to crawl back into my body. It was always dark like, and nothing in particular made me think this was something everyone didn't do. But this time it was different.

To end, Ascension is happening, people. You can deny it and stay here in the 3rd dimension, and nobody will make fun of you for that. Things are happening every day now, look around in this forum alone and one can see that. The Ascension is under way, it will come to a climax in late 2012, then it will be over until the next cycle singularity. The Ascension is an experience that you choose to be part of, and the choices are many, not just two like religion teaches.

Whether you Ascend or not is a subconscious act on the part of your true self, your soul. You, as a physical being, with a physical sense of reality and conciousness does not know if you are ready to Ascend.... Only those who are aware of their
Higher Self, or your Complete Being. This is the major problem with religion, it teaches that the High, Divine Spirit is "out there" and not, "in here."
Many of you are not ready for this, despite the efforts of teachers who come to enlighten you. Paradise, or a primitive state of being awaits, the information is there, you just must seek it out. "Seek, and you will Find." It's in the bible. In the back somewhere. Good luck to you all, hope to see one or two of you in the Afterlife. There will be a Cosmic Party that will last for years.

reply to post by autowrench


Hi auto!

So am I understanding you correctly that you believe the 'higher self' and the holy spirit....are one in the same?

Let me add first, why I find them to be different. The Higher self is more directly connected to each individually, like my higher self is not the same as your higher self. I have different things to learn on a personal level then you do. The Holy Spirit is something we all share together, this is what makes us 'one'. Each path, higher self and holy spirit....offers a different understanding...the higher self offers understanding for individual growth and the holy spirit offers understanding for when we are ready for the more...to live for others...in the knowing that we all share the same holy spirit. The higher self seems to still be connected to ego somewhat....for it is still the higher part of ourselves that 'knows' things as individuals. So on a personal path of growth for the self...self maturity ect...we can seek the higher self....but on a more humble path of the 'one' that we all share that connects us all...we can seek the holy spirit. Each offers a somewhat different understanding....depending of course what are desires are...if they are for the 'self' or for the 'all'.

So would love for you to expand on what you think. As I sought the higher self...I learned alot about 'me' I overcame alot of regrets I had, I embraced the good and the bad in my life, I learned about things about me that I didnt want to face and the higher self helped me get through that. I feel a deep connected to Saturn, when I sought my higher self. When I sought the holy spirit....there was things I needed to understand, like the oneness that we are all....that my will had to be for the 'all' and not the self....while seeking the holy spirit. For since we all share this same holy spirit....its nature is for the 'all' that is 'of Thee'.

Does that make any sense?

reply to post by PieKeeper

Science is limited to the physical because that's what we can measure, observe, and test. Metaphysics isn't subject to scientific methods.

And that's the point Science has limited itself to the physical and refuses to consider the possibility of moving beyond the physical.. Hence it has not learned to measure beyond, it considers anything beyond the physical as non existant. It is a self limiting paradigm.

Originally posted by hawkiye
And that's the point Science has limited itself to the physical and refuses to consider the possibility of moving beyond the physical..

Science hasn't limited itself, it's limited by our own reality. It doesn't refuse to consider the possibility of moving beyond the physical, we simply can't measure paranormal phenomena.

Science is a system for objectively measuring, testing, and observing reality. What you are suggesting is outside our capabilities to achieve these objectives from an objective standpoint.

Originally posted by PieKeeper

Originally posted by hawkiye
And that's the point Science has limited itself to the physical and refuses to consider the possibility of moving beyond the physical..

Science hasn't limited itself, it's limited by our own reality. It doesn't refuse to consider the possibility of moving beyond the physical, we simply can't measure paranormal phenomena.

Science is a system for objectively measuring, testing, and observing reality. What you are suggesting is outside our capabilities to achieve these objectives from an objective standpoint.

You don't see that even your own statement proves my point. You think it is impossible to move beyond the physical and that all reality ends with the physical hence you are not open to considering the possibility that reality extends far beyond the physical despite the much evidence that it does. This is no different then scientist believing the world was flat centuries ago. They did this by observable evidence, the world appeared flat to them, however a few challenged the status quo and were ridiculed and scorned for it and even threatened to be punished for hearesay.

Open your mind friend.

Originally posted by hawkiye
This is no different then scientist believing the world was flat centuries ago. They did this by observable evidence, the world appeared flat to them, however a few challenged the status quo and were ridiculed and scorned for it and even threatened to be punished for hearesay.

Science showed that the earth was round. Religious institutions, not science, were the ones that ridiculed and punished those that opposed the idea of a flat earth.

Bad analogy.

Originally posted by hawkiye
You don't see that even your own statement proves my point. You think it is impossible to move beyond the physical and that all reality ends with the physical hence you are not open to considering the possibility that reality extends far beyond the physical despite the much evidence that it does.

It doesn't prove your point. I'm telling you exactly why there's no reason to believe that there is anything "beyond the physical." It's because you can't show any objective measured, tested, or observed evidence for it. Sure, you have people that say "I had an out-of-body experience.", but that's as meaningful as someone saying "I got abducted by aliens from another dimension." because it's EXTREMELY subject to bias, especially when we know for a fact that the brain can produce hallucinations and delusions.

reply to post by PieKeeper

Science showed that the earth was round. Religious institutions, not science, were the ones that ridiculed and punished those that opposed the idea of a flat earth.

Bad analogy.

Not quite. Science believed the world was flat. Sailors had known for decades it wasn't but kept quiet to avoid scorn. Science didn't show anything it only conformed when the knowledge could no longer be denied

It doesn't prove your point. I'm telling you exactly why there's no reason to believe that there is anything "beyond the physical." It's because you can't show any objective measured, tested, or observed evidence for it. Sure, you have people that say "I had an out-of-body experience.", but that's as meaningful as someone saying "I got abducted by aliens from another dimension." because it's EXTREMELY subject to bias, especially when we know for a fact that the brain can produce hallucinations and delusions.

Almost every statement of yours including the above proves my point perfectly. You do not know for a fact the brain can produce hallucinations. Tell me did science cut the brain open and there was a sign in there that said hallucinations produced here? Measuring electric impulses in the brain proves nothing of the kind. It only proves the brain reacts to certain stimulation, it does not prove the origin of any experience a person has that might be considered a hallucination. It is all speculation on the part of science.

I am sure your blind spot will cause you to disagree so we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Originally posted by hawkiye
Science believed the world was flat... Science didn't show anything it only conformed when the knowledge could no longer be denied

Science doesn't believe. Science is a tool, not an entity. Religion conformed when "the knowledge could no longer be denied," but science is what brought us to the conclusion that the Earth was round.

Originally posted by hawkiye
I am sure your blind spot will cause you to disagree so we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Disagree? You've consistently shown your ignorance and misunderstanding of what science is and what we know about the topics in question (I provided some good articles on gravity to which you never responded).

We're not agreeing to disagree, you're choosing to remain ignorant.

reply to post by PieKeeper


Yeah yeah whatever. You keep thinking that dude.. What ever reinforces your blind ignorance, or what ever blows your dress up..

reply to post by hawkiye


"Scientism" has indeed stifled the true progress of science for centuries. every revolutionary mind and/or concept is outright ridiculed and discarded initially, most frequently for a period of 1 to 3 decades. happened with einstein, happened when the earth was thought to be flat, happened when it was proposed that the earth rotated around the sun, and many, many, many other things. It is actually an interesting thing to study as its a deeply consistent pattern. i postulate that such self-inflicted dogma towards the idea of the "known being limited or wrong" is more of a human psychological/sociological trait, as it is seen within everything from science, to religion, to sports, to money. Perhaps based in fear for some, and pride for others.

Then, in hindsight, it is simply said "well science did accept it was wrong, thats its strength!" but it never seems to include the notion that accepted science was flat out wrong, and had ridiculed the "right" conceptualization for years. No thought is given to the fact that such a thing might be happening currently. And, if history tells us anything, it is always happening that way. if all was known, then science wouldnt have a need for itself. if all is not known, then it is not known what is or is not 100% consistent ("true"). only that there is a consistent pattern as far as we know. and then we get into interpretation of the data..

Its an interesting point made about gravity, hawk. People are so quick to jump on such a thing, because indeed, things are moving in a seemingly consistent pattern. the human concept and symbols of gravity may be a completely misguided line of thinking on what is actually happening to cause the effect. has happened historically with countless concepts and topics, with a seemingly consistent pattern

As far as the article, im guessing they had all the equipment to test whether or not something in the.. "metaphysical" (terrible term, really) realm manifested outside of the body? I am sure that, being scientists, they used such a proper test platform, as the stated interpretation of the data is reaching a bit far using standard data-gathering. it points to conclusions such as "all experience is contained within the mind," and "nothing exists beyond chemical reactions in the brain," and "there is nothing more than the 'material' our senses observe." These correlations, however, can not be made without the proper testing, independent of the notion of an OOBE. I also would think that they would be able to explain the inherent experiential difference between certain types of meditation and sleep, as the measured empirical data shows them as indistinguishable from one another. The vast array of these experiences point to something outside of our current understanding, observation, and concepts. It is a variable that many do not want to even attempt to put into the equation. It doesnt mean anything other than it needs to be explored and understood to a greater degree. after all, that rock in ones shoe only comes into "existence" when it is stepped on, right? The difficult part is coming up with testing platforms, but surely, Sirius A "existed" before we came up with the testing platform to observe it. Though, "scientism," at that time, would have claimed quite differently, because of course, they already "knew" such things to be false because of lack of evidence!

Without knowing how to test anything beyond the physical brain/body response itself, the data could also be interpreted to mean that OOBE are a real and empirically measurable phenomena that can be stimulated through the brain. I mean, thats exactly what they did.. They have taking the first steps in proving OOBE exist empirically, at least within the human brain. There is the discrepancy, however, of distinct variances between the test subjects experience, and "real world" experiences. It could simply be a similar experience, with no relation beyond being an individual experience. Making such conclusions is once again, dont without evidence. We can not say the other effects present (such as consciousness leaving the body), if we are not testing for them. we would just be making assumptions with no testing, or even attempts to do so, no evidence, and only based within our own bias in a world that is beyond our comprehension in its totality. Such interpretation of this data is making huge leaps into the unknown with zero evidence. In fact, it is directly discarding pieces of evidence to jump to this conclusion. The OOBE experiences that can relay parts of the experience accurately, even if they are literally brain-dead, must be considered. All this test shows is that dissociation can occur by using these methods. It is a step in understanding experience, such a test shows nothing other than 'that' state can be induced by 'those' conditions. no proper, logical conclusion can be made beyond that, without significant further testing, and the invention of new testing platforms.

It seems they made a test that would prove their already present bias, and those that have made similar assumptions use it to affirm their bias on the unknown as well (both ways).

It will always be the fringe scientists who make the biggest leaps. mainstream "science" is more concerned with proving what it knows is right. It has its place, but even at its best and "truest," what we know is only a human representation and inevitable limitation of what is already going on around us, in us, and with us as a part. Conceptually, science is never truth. For the "fringe" scientists, science is the search for truth. For mainstream science, it is nothing more than a testable representation of what is already perceived to be true. Such things are frequently proposed by the fringe scientists of 1-3 decades previous. It is not an appropriate jump to thinking it is truth, as none of it is anything more than human symbols used to understand what we observe.

[/science rant over] it can just get frustrating dealing with this type of thing on so many fronts.. it was time to vent

reply to post by sinohptik


Excellent post sinohptick and thanks for the analisys! Pie keepers own words show the world we see around us is actually a hallucination. And there is scientific proof below. It will be intersting to see if he tries to deny it.

reply to post by PieKeeper


OK Pie Keeper here you go Scientific proof that everything you see is nothing but a hallucination or illusion. How do the dark regions of the brain process signals from the optic nerve and create light in a place completely devoid of light?

Here is the video giving the scientific proof that reality is beyond the physical:



You think that's air you're breathing...

The video you posted is exactly why we don't depend solely on personal testimonies to learn about our world. Using instruments, we can confirm the observations made with our senses, and we can even observe phenomena undetectable by our senses.

Originally posted by hawkiye
OK Pie Keeper here you go Scientific proof that everything you see is nothing but a hallucination or illusion.

You said "You do not know for a fact the brain can produce hallucinations. Tell me did science cut the brain open and there was a sign in there that said hallucinations produced here? Measuring electric impulses in the brain proves nothing of the kind. It only proves the brain reacts to certain stimulation, it does not prove the origin of any experience a person has that might be considered a hallucination."

So... what is exactly your stance on hallucinations in the brain? The hallucinations I originally referred to are essentially confused/false sensory interpretations and inputs which occur in the brain.

Originally posted by hawkiye
How do the dark regions of the brain process signals from the optic nerve and create light in a place completely devoid of light?

The brain doesn't produce light (at least not a significant amount, but some biological functions do create small amounts of light.) Where did you get that idea from?

Originally posted by hawkiye
Here is the video giving the scientific proof that reality is beyond the physical:

They're defining the entire foundation of "reality" simply based on how the brain processes information. Essentially "The brain perceives reality indirectly, therefore everything is a perception and nothing is real. "

Can you please explain how this is reasonable?

Could you also explain why this is more plausible than our brains perceiving things that are *real* in the sense that we are using it?

reply to post by PieKeeper

Could you also explain why this is more plausible than our brains perceiving things that are *real* in the sense that we are using it?

Did you watch the whole video? Apparently not as it was not a personal testimony but scientific evidence.

You said the brain creates hallucinations based on chemical reactions. When all is said and done then anything we perceive is reduced to a chemical reaction in the brain hence everything you see is nothing more then a hallucination and according to your reasoning can be nothing more then such.

The brain is matter these chemical reactions occur in the deep dark recesses of the brain where there is no light therefore any perception of light must be a hallucination. This supports your theory, but now you question it. You can't have it both ways either the brain is creating everything you see via chemical reaction in complete darkness or it isn't. Which is it?

That's quite possibly one reason for some. I doubt that it is the reason for all.

reply to post by hawkiye

You said the brain creates hallucinations based on chemical reactions. When all is said and done then anything we perceive is reduced to a chemical reaction in the brain hence everything you see is nothing more then a hallucination and according to your reasoning can be nothing more then such.

Yes, our visual experience is created via a chemical process, but it is a different process to a hallucination. Our vision is based on real stimuli, whereas hallucinations out based upon fake ones.

When light enters the eye, it is refracted by the lens onto the retina. There are two main types of cells that help us see: cone cells for seeing in colour, and rod cells for seeing in black and white. Both of these cells rely on a chemical to transmit the message down the optical nerve (iodopsin and rhodopin, repectively). Light hitting the retina causes a chemical reaction that causes a neural impulse carrying on the information to the optical centres in the brain.

A hallucination, in the broadest sense of the word, is a perception in the absence of a stimulus

Hallucinations

Originally posted by hawkiye
Did you watch the whole video? Apparently not as it was not a personal testimony but scientific evidence.

I didn't say that it was a personal testimony. I meant that this video explains why we don't generally use personal testimonies to gather empirical evidence.

Originally posted by hawkiye
You said the brain creates hallucinations based on chemical reactions. When all is said and done then anything we perceive is reduced to a chemical reaction in the brain hence everything you see is nothing more then a hallucination and according to your reasoning can be nothing more then such.

A hallucination is seeing/hearing/sensing something that isn't actually there, such as seeing fire in the room when no one else can. You're getting it backwards. What our brain interprets is indeed chemical reactions, but that doesn't mean it's all hallucinations.

Originally posted by hawkiye
You can't have it both ways either the brain is creating everything you see via chemical reaction in complete darkness or it isn't. Which is it?

You asked how the brain creates "light in a place completely devoid of light?" to which I said "The brain doesn't create light." I would say that the brain isn't "creating" everything you see. Instead, what is not being hallucinated is being interpreted from sensory input.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

So would love for you to expand on what you think. As I sought the higher self...I learned alot about 'me' I overcame alot of regrets I had, I embraced the good and the bad in my life, I learned about things about me that I didnt want to face and the higher self helped me get through that. I feel a deep connected to Saturn, when I sought my higher self. When I sought the holy spirit....there was things I needed to understand, like the oneness that we are all....that my will had to be for the 'all' and not the self....while seeking the holy spirit. For since we all share this same holy spirit....its nature is for the 'all' that is 'of Thee'. Does that make any sense?

Makes perfect sense. The Spirit, Soul, Higher Self, Holy Guardian Angel are all the same thing. They are the Divine Self that we all are. these carbon based corporeal human bodies were created for us by beings unknown, but that vast and pure energy that resides within each and every one of us is the Divine First Creator. You might say it/he/she decided to Incarnate into bodily flesh. The divisions we are are is the many parts of a pure personality blasted into billions of pieces across the Universe. Let's just say we are a young God, or rather many Gods and Goddesses in training for some yet unknown purpose. Who or what started all of this we do not, cannot understand, and I wish some would stop trying to personify it.

reply to post by Griffo


You think that's light you're seeing?

reply to post by PieKeeper


You think that is reality you're perceiving?


There are many OBE's and NDE's where the person saw and heard conversations of doctors relatives etc. in the room, out of the room beyond earshot, and even miles away that were confirmed by those whom they heard and saw. This is evidence that consciousness is not dependant on the brain.

Tonight it is my goal to have an OBE and give the OP a Wedgie, I hope this will convince him/her. LOL. Just kidding I am not able to do such things...yet!