Out of body experiences just the product of a confused mind

Originally posted by bargoose
I don't understand why science seems to be scared of the possibility of a spiritual facet to reality.

It isn't scared. Proponents of "a spiritual facet to reality" don't have the evidence to demonstrate that their claim is valid.

reply to post by PieKeeper


Your not making any sense.

All the scientist did was create an optical illusion using a bunch of equipment and then they made the leap that this is somehow associated with an O.B.E.

I have had several O.B.E. and this experiment doesn't sound like anything I have experienced. I walked around the room and walked around my apartment and then I looked at myself lying in bed with a computer generated avatar, goggles, cameras and mirrors.

Neither does science have evidence for it's side of the argument, so should at least keep an open mind.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
reply to post by PieKeeper

 

Your not making any sense.

All the scientist did was create an optical illusion using a bunch of equipment and then they made the leap that this is somehow associated with an O.B.E.

It wasn't just an optical illusion, they fooled the proprioception of the subjects. Because out-of-body experiences deal with body position, they are directly related to the sense of proprioception. Because scientists can show that they can induce these sorts of experiences and fool the sense of proprioception, they are showing that out-of-body experiences are likely to be a similar fooling of the senses.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
I have had several O.B.E. and this experiment doesn't sound like anything I have experienced. I walked around the room and walked around my apartment and then I looked at myself lying in bed with a computer generated avatar, goggles, cameras and mirrors.

Just because you experienced something doesn't mean that it was real, and personal accounts of experiences are extremely subject to bias.

Originally posted by bargoose
Neither does science have evidence for it's side of the argument, so should at least keep an open mind.

The burden of proof doesn't necessarily lie on the scientific community to disprove the claims that I referenced. It's up to the proponents to demonstrate the validity of their claims.

reply to post by PieKeeper


What???

You said:

It wasn't just an optical illusion, they fooled the proprioception of the subjects. Because out-of-body experiences deal with body position, they are directly related to the sense of proprioception. Because scientists can show that they can induce these sorts of experiences and fool the sense of proprioception, they are showing that out-of-body experiences are likely to be a similar fooling of the senses.

This makes zero sense. Out of body experiences are LIKELY to be similar!! Based on what? On what basis do these scientist draw these correlations? Was this based on brain wave activity of someone experiencing an O.B.E. and someone that's rigged up to their equipment? What metrics did they use to show that the experiment with the goggles, computer generated avatar, mirrors and cameras are correlated to an O.B.E.?

You said

Just because you experienced something doesn't mean that it was real, and personal accounts of experiences are extremely subject to bias.

Did you even read the paper. Of course my O.B.E. is real according to these scientist but it's an illusion of the brain that they created in a lab with a bunch of equipment and what they produced is nothing like I experienced.

Don''t you think the experiences of those who have had O.B.E. is relevant if these scientist are going to make the silly claim that their experiment with all their equipment explains O.B.E.'s?

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
This makes zero sense. Out of body experiences are LIKELY to be similar!! Based on what?

Based on the fact that out-of-body experiences primarily deal with the sense of body position, also known as proprioception.

Originally posted by Matrix Rising
Did you even read the paper. Of course my O.B.E. is real according to these scientist but it's an illusion of the brain that they created in a lab with a bunch of equipment and what they produced is nothing like I experienced.

Again, what I'm referring to as real is the nature of the experience; whether or not consciousness was actually disembodied. How you describe the personal experience is important in determining what sort of things play a part in the experience. However, whether or not it actually happened or the nature of the experience (whether or not consciousness was disembodied) can't necessarily be trusted.

reply to post by PieKeeper

No one has shown that out-of-body experiences are a supernatural phenomena and not an illusion being constructed by the brain itself.

And no one has shown that they are not supernatural phenomena either. The fact is science does not know either way. To claim they do shows the arrogance still so prevalent in to many science circles.

Thought, self awareness, and consciousness are all products of brain activity. This is pretty well known, and there isn't any evidence to show otherwise.

Really? If that is so well known then please show us where science has proven it? Oh and also proven that brain activity is not a result of thought instead? It seems they should be able to create thought with chemical reactions if they have proven it.

It doesn't make sense since the brain is the mechanism powered by thought, the thought would have to be applied first not the other way around. It is kind of like saying punching someone in the nose is the result of the actions of the hand as if the hand did it on its own and the thought was then created as a result, when clearly there was fore thought making the decision to throw the punch before any action took place.

Here is 100% proof atleast to myself that obe is somthing real...

When I was around 16 I began to realize when I was in a dream,whats more that I could control any and all aspects of myself at will...What puzzled me was how those I met along the way could not be manipulated in the same fashion... It Would be well over a decade before I would ever hear the term "high lucidity"...

After sometime having been doing this,one of my favorite things to do was to take flight... I loved to leave the atmosphere... The first time I did this I was scared abit by what I saw... There was so much more going on and to be seen then in any picture I had ever seen of space...

Anyway I also liked to look down at the earth from on high several times I would see buildings bathed in a white light... I had always been wanting to go to it but tis time felt I had to...Reaching the ground I came into contact with with a group of kids ages varied from 5 to 18.... 12 of us in total what was odd here was the man in a black suit on each side of him were soldiers in full body armor flight helmets big black visors leaving only thier mouth and chins exposed... Once again manys years before I would see such things while awake...

The man in the middle callled out to the group of the group of 11 others to fall in we would be leaving soon... I had been far more intrested in the soldiers and the one in the middle I remeber wanting to see behind his black glasses,and how at one point upon reaching toward one of the soldiers guns which looked way kool to me,how his sudden laugter stopped me from doing so,and him telling me how I had no need for a gun whatsoever ... The soldier very straight faced cracked a smile though that made me feel better...

The man in black suit turned to the soldier on his right hand side and informed him it was time... without pause the soldier lifted his hand to the left side of his helmet and rang out... We are go for Oracle extraction... Me standing there thinking to myself,'what the hell is this guy talking about?' In mere seconds even before first visual of the incoming chopper, I became aware of a strange humming buzz in my head... whrrrrr whrrrrr whrrrrr... the way the air pressure dropped suddenly felt quite cool... And the hair on my arms standing on end it was like the air itself had become electrified...My flesh now felt moist aswell...The chopper was now down about 35 feet away in this rather large parkinglot for the building to the right of it in a city unknown to me...Once again a sight unknown to me this choppers body looked more like a giant insect then a helicopter... I could not see the blades there was a giant ring around where the blades would be that seemed to be attached to nothing...And it souded very quiet more like a helicopter far in the distance... You could feel it better and hear the air moving more if that makes any sense...

The soldier on the left side of the man while I was taking this in had been speaking quietly in the same fashion as the other had,but didnt catch what he was saying,anyway it was then that he told us to go ahead and get in and that there was a spot for each of us... heads low move quickly he said we all did just as he said this fact still amazes me...

Once inside there was indeed a spot for all 6 each side facing forward 2 each side of the large open doors and 1 facing us alittle further back between the 2 behind the pilots...The 2 soldiers spun thier seas sideways flipped up an arm from under the seats extended a piece up from that snapped thier guns iinto place,then each pulled down a screen and turned it on...it was outside but in perfect color and daylight yet it was fully dark besides street lights and the odd light from homes...

It was then the smallest youngest of us snotty nose and all spoke... He asked what do you call this? His voice told me he was not the least bit afraid, which is what I was wondering as he did... Then the man in the middle replies what shall we call this? I blurtted out suddenly without thought Mantis...both soldiers began to smile thier big grins...The man in the middle then said you are 100% deadon...thats all of this for now as Ihave gone far beyond my intended content of my original claim at the start of this post...much more to this event and many more meetings over the years with these same individuals to be certain...

Anyway like I was saying I liked to fly when I would find myself leaving my body looking down on myself lying in bed...I would always do this and look around at items here and there just as they were before I decided to goto sleep and so rememberd... This night I thought I would ride my bike instead of fly and go visit a friend named Kent...So I do I get to his house no need to knock as I am fully welcome,I enter greet his mother and father and proceed downstairs to Kents room... I knocked to which he answers with a shaky voice tha he wants to be left alone...Its me I tell him and ask whats wrong? this is my very good friend the sound of his voice tells me he is greatly troubled...He lets me in I sit down in one of the chairs in his room and he in the other... He begins to reveal to me though streams of tears and anguish how his girlfriend had cheated on him...He went on further the details i will not speak of here and explained why he simply could not deal with it and had decided he would be taking his own life this very night...

I stay with my friend several hous talking sense to him these words I will not utter here either but I stay untill I see the desired change come over him to know he would be safe if I left..When on my way out I said Id see him at school the next day...I ride my bike home as I pass under each street light along the way they turn off as I do... after a few in a row, im kind of freaked out..When I reach home i simply leave my bike at my front steps instead of bringing inside as I always did otherwise...

I look at my bike in the morning on my way out to catch the bus its inside my house right where I always keep it...I get to school as I step off the bus Kent is there waiting...

He pulls me to the side and thanks me, explains how he would have done it and was just about ready when I showed up last night... it all plays back in my mind I remember my bike in the morning im freaked out right about then ...I tell him how I went to his house during a dream and somehow our dreams merged...He laughs at me smacks me on the shoulder...He says how he will never forget it... Im left standing there thinking about my bike...

every word of it
true

My VERY first memory was an OBE. This is TOTALLY contradictory to other OBE's as most experience this when death is imminent. I would like to know who could possibly explain this!

BTW this first memory was confirmed by family.

I have to disagree with the is articles premise. I would just like to refer to Mr Cayce. Can any scientist debunk, dispell his prophecies or outer body experiences?Nostradamus? Any Pope?, Indian tribes?, Even anyone? I think it is a individual experience that "science" will never be able to explain. Can science explain what happens to a persons personallity/ (soul) when one dies?

Originally posted by hawkiye
Oh and also proven that brain activity is not a result of thought instead? It seems they should be able to create thought with chemical reactions if they have proven it.

I'm not a neuroscientist (a student of biology, though), but from what I understand, the brain is essentially a massive series of neurons. A "thought" would be a series of neurons receiving and sending information. This is indeed chemically based.

Originally posted by hawkiye
It doesn't make sense since the brain is the mechanism powered by thought, the thought would have to be applied first not the other way around. It is kind of like saying punching someone in the nose is the result of the actions of the hand as if the hand did it on its own and the thought was then created as a result, when clearly there was fore thought making the decision to throw the punch before any action took place.

The hand doesn't have to act with thought. If you accidently touch a hot pan, you begin to pull away your hand before the information even reaches your brain. The information of touching the hot pan is responded to by neurons in the spinal chord, which tell your hand to pull away. This is just an example of a non-brain related reaction, and doesn't apply to every situation.

Also, the brain is not a "mechanism" powered by thought. Your body primarily runs on processes that you cannot consciously control, but that your brain takes care of automatically.

Originally posted by mugger
I have to disagree with the is articles premise. I would just like to refer to Mr Cayce. Can any scientist debunk, dispell his prophecies or outer body experiences?Nostradamus? Any Pope?, Indian tribes?, Even anyone? I think it is a individual experience that "science" will never be able to explain. Can science explain what happens to a persons personallity/ (soul) when one dies?

First of all, the scientists don't bear the burden of proof to debunk these things. The burden of proof lies upon the claimant. Second, debunking out-of-body experiences is the path that these scientists have taken a step towards. Third, Nostradamus wrote extremely vague prophecies that could apply to a number of situations, and it's only inevitable that they would each be attributed to an event. Fourth, the soul has never been shown to exist, nor has an afterlife. Currently, according to science, the soul doesn't exist and therefore your personality ceases to exist when you die.

Originally posted by hawkiye
reply to post by PieKeeper

 

No one has shown that out-of-body experiences are a supernatural phenomena and not an illusion being constructed by the brain itself.

And no one has shown that they are not supernatural phenomena either. The fact is science does not know either way. To claim they do shows the arrogance still so prevalent in to many science circles.

Thought, self awareness, and consciousness are all products of brain activity. This is pretty well known, and there isn't any evidence to show otherwise.

Really? If that is so well known then please show us where science has proven it? Oh and also proven that brain activity is not a result of thought instead? It seems they should be able to create thought with chemical reactions if they have proven it.

It doesn't make sense since the brain is the mechanism powered by thought, the thought would have to be applied first not the other way around. It is kind of like saying punching someone in the nose is the result of the actions of the hand as if the hand did it on its own and the thought was then created as a result, when clearly there was fore thought making the decision to throw the punch before any action took place.

You may find this thread I posted of interest: www.abovetopsecret.com...

A lot of the people who responded had quite a similar take on things.

It's something to do with magnetism electricity. Science didn't prooved the phenomenon was real considering this field of study is a taboo. With that being said, is the scientific world using empirical method to proove realities ready to allege such a thing for the masses ? I don't think so, the evidence would be just unaccepted and the masses would go crazy, seriously think about the impact ( did you ? ). Second, science didn't proove WITHOUT ANY DOUBT that OBE's were not real.

If you still deny what I say, search about this man : Robert A. Monroe. He wrote a complete book called Journey's out of the body which explains his path in this domain. Furthermore, Let me ask you another question, If somebody would have the chance to teach you how to do such experiences : would you take part in the process only to DISCOVER the real thruth about this, vibrations, energy and all these ? If you say no, then you are limited in the ammount of knowledge you allow your brain the learn and that is totally YOUR personnal choice.

In the end I consider that science isn't an absolute considering Einstein a great physician said EVERTYHING IS RELATIVE . How ironic? I must that at this point, whatever your opinion is, it is not important to me as everybody deserve his own. Altough you'll learn someday thet only the crazy keeps his ideas frozen in the ice and by that time I hope you'll not regret knowledge you could've gotten which maybe is irrational to you, but that is not to another.


It's all up to you now .

reply to post by PieKeeper

I'm not a neuroscientist (a student of biology, though), but from what I understand, the brain is essentially a massive series of neurons. A "thought" would be a series of neurons receiving and sending information. This is indeed chemically based.

That still does not prove thought is the result. It is actually evidence that thought is the cause of all action in the brain. If it was the other way around as you suggest then what decides what actions the brain should take to create certain thought processes? There would be no consciousness, no self awareness and no decisions just random thoughts. Consciousness which is the real you is what drives the thought process and causes the actions of the brain to send those thoughts into the body etc.

Even a computer can do nothing without an intelligence to program the mechanism with its thoughts. there is no reason either the think the brain creates it own thoughts by mere chemical reactions. the brain is just a more sophisticated computer programmed by the intelligence or consciousness that inhabits the body.

The hand doesn't have to act with thought. If you accidental touch a hot pan, you begin to pull away your hand before the information even reaches your brain. The information of touching the hot pan is responded to by neurons in the spinal chord, which tell your hand to pull away. This is just an example of a non-brain related reaction, and doesn't apply to every situation.

Wrong it is not non-brain related. You first had to learn to pull that hand away through conscious thought based on experience. A baby does not know to pull the hand away. Everything begins with a thought.

, the brain is not a "mechanism" powered by thought. Your body primarily runs on processes that you cannot consciously control, but that your brain takes care of automatically.

And the brain just figured this out all on its own before it created thoughts? Some consciousness with a logical thought process had to program the brain to do what it does automatically like a computer creating neuro paths for automatic functions based on logical thought. Otherwise it would be like assembling a computer with no machine code, programming, etc. and expect it to work perfectly. As I said everything begins with a thought. Indeed logic dictates that the brain is a mechanism for conveying and processing thought not creating it, like a computer but on a much more elaborate scale with a self aware entity or consciousnesses as the operator. For science to assume thoughts are the result of mere chemical reactions makes no sense. The chemical reactions are the result of thoughts entering the brain from the consciousness or entity that inhabits the brain and body.

reply to post by hawkiye


You're going to have to explain how you know that "thought" derives from "consciousness or entities" and that it causes all brain activity, because you're only demonstrating your lack of understanding of biology and that you believe that consciousness exists outside of the brain, which no one has been able to demonstrate.

A Chance To Prove OBEs Are Real

Ok here is a chance for people to prove that OBE is real.
Now this will only work for people who can have OBEs, however scientists con easily do this test if they recruit people who can have OBE's at will.

For the test you will need a place about which you do not know anything, but you must be able to go there after the OBE. Could be a particular street you have never been in or even a room in your house which has been remodeled by a trusted person and then locked while you were not at home.

When the OBE occurs go to the said place while in OBE state. Try to remember as many things about the place that you can.
Complete the OBE in as much of a controlled mode as you can. Immediately write down all that you remember. Then go into the said place and check if what is there and what is written match.
If they do match then of course OBE is real, if it does not that leaves 2 possible conclusions, either the OBE was not done correctly or that OBEs are not real.

Originally posted by PieKeeper
reply to post by hawkiye

 

You're going to have to explain how you know that "thought" derives from "consciousness or entities" and that it causes all brain activity, because you're only demonstrating your lack of understanding of biology and that you believe that consciousness exists outside of the brain, which no one has been able to demonstrate.

By the same token you are going to have to demonstrate consciousness is a result of chemical reactions in the brain. Measuring electrical impulses during thought does not prove either way. However there is much evidence for consciousness outside the body and as the force that animates the body.

Ever had the phone ring and know who it was before you picked up without seeing the number or any other way of knowing? Ask doctors about faith healings they have witnessed that defy all science. The very fact that you can put together any logical thought process testifies to an intelligence that animates the body and brain and is not a result of it. Otherwise what is it that is making the decisions in your life? There has to be an intelligence behind all things otherwise there is nothing. The arrogance of science in assuming they know chemical reactions cause thought without demonstrating it is amazing in light of the fact that the very lives of those contemplating it testify to the opposite.

So tell us do you really believe you and who you are and your life and the billions like you are just a result of a bunch of random actions of a glob of meat and chemicals that got lucky?

Science still can't explain what animates the body and makes intelligent decisions yet everyone knows it exist. Nor can they explain what keeps the planets in thier rotations. You can't even explain how salt tastes to someone who has never tasted it. So one last time just because science cannot measure something with its limited knowledge does not mean it does not exist.

Science once thought the world was flat too...

reply to post by Griffo


I would not say OB is of a 'confused' mind.

OB is an altered state that has been 'scientifically proven' to reduce pain/trauma the individual is experiencing, that is not confusion

interesting thread though

My mother who was strickly bed ridden for years....had a OBE.

During this OBE...she was 'walking' through her house...which was something she could not due-she had not been able to walk for years. She had not been in any room of the house for years as well.

It just so happens, during her OBE...she found something in another room my father had been looking for and was frustrated that he could not find it.

When my mother awoke she recealled walking through her house and told me how wonderful it felt to be able to 'roam' around her home and feel like she was walking. She took it all as a dream...unitl she remember what she had seen in the other room...which was what my father had been looking for. She told him right where to go and to look in a certain place on his desk....and sure enough, there was what he had been looking for.

We were all baffled beyond belief....but there was no way my mother could of known what it was and she was able to tell him exactly where it was.

take it for what you wish
LV

reply to post by LeoVirgo


This is exactly the type of data verification that is needed to prove OBEs either way. The ability to physically see/ hear/ etc what is impossible to do so from the current location of the physical presence. This is what scientists should be trying to do, not this stupid prop show.