Dialectical (Argument) Fallacies
"Dialectics is the Science of arguing well."
Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Lucifer777
I feel like any further discussion on this topic would be a waste of time, as you clearly don't see the logical fallacy of your claims. I will leave
you with this.
It seems to me that "anti-Masonry" is mostly a "Christian" sport; the Christian anti-Masons are simply proponents of one form of Capitalist
Christianity who are attacking a competitor in the marketplace of the multi billion dollar religion business, and often all manner of bizzarre
conspiracy theories are presented, whether there is any basis in truth or not.
I would like to just point out that I consider myself to be an anti-cultist and anti-religionist rather than an anti-Mason, and that Masonry is just
one of many cult religions which operate as gangs of organised Capitalists; my essential critique of religous cultism is a Nietzschean, Neomarxist and
Anarchist crtique, and I in no way wish to ally myself with the numerous religious fanatics who accuse Masons of being Satanists. If the Masons were
philosophical and sacreligious Satanists, I would probably have a great deal of affinity with them, but this is not the case; they are simply a gang
of religious Capitalists. It makes absolutely no difference to me what the "name" of your transcendental deity is, whether God, Satan, Brahaman or
The "Masons rule the world"
paranoia is generally ignored by most Communists; the International Dictatorship of Capitalism is a very real
economic dictatorship and it is a rule of Capitalists, not Freemasons, though certainly many Masons are part of the Capitalist establishment.
The Communist and Anarchist agenda includes the total eradication of the economic and religious Archons. Collectivism and the eradication of the
Capitalist economic Archons is essential for the creation of the "New Earth (economic heaven)" and the eradication of religious Archons is essential
for the creation of the "New Heaven (i.e., the world of the mind);" in light of this Masonry must be seen as an anti-revolutionary movement and a
Messianic religious cult which must, in time, be swept away along with the proponents of the various other memetic diseases of religion, and the
defenders of the Capitalist establishment.
What I would like to do is to point out the symptoms of mind control. Generally indoctrinated cultists tend to be overdefensive and tend to utilise
numerous types of argument fallacy; their point is not to engage in argument, but generally to utilise a plethora of argument fallacies including
abuse, contradiction, sophistry, distraction fallacies, etc., and to engage in "cult defense" by all means necessary.
There are various forms of argument fallacy being used here, so firstlly let us consider what a "Logical fallacy" is.
For example, consider the statements:
1: "I am a Roman Catholic and I have never seen a priest rape and abuse a child, so therefore no priest has ever raped and abused a child
2: "All persons who accuse the Catholic Church of protecting child molesters are enemies of the Church, therefore their accusations are
Originally posted by network dude
Originally posted by Lucifer777
Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to
be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers). As I understand it, some Masonic lodges have charity status and others operate as franchise businesses,
however as far as I am concerned they are just part of the multi-billion dollar religion business, irrespective of whether there are corruption
charges against them or not.
that seems to be the problem. Your understanding of what masonry is has come from the wrong sources. With your father being a mason, that surprises
the hell out of me. The bull sh!t on freemasonrywatch is just that. Yes the jesters thing happened, and years ago, before you had to be a mason to
be a shriner, there was some trouble there.....
This is essentially the type of argument which I have given an example of as: 2: "All persons who accuse the Catholic Church of protecting child
molesters are enemies of the Church, so therfore their accusations are false."
Certainly "Watchy," who is the site owner of www.freemasonrywatch.org...
can be defined as an anti-Mason, however Watchy is also a religious
cultist; he is a Roman Catholic and thus a member of the world's largest anti-revolutionary religious cult; he simply represents a cult which is
competing for market share in the multi-billion dollar religion business, and of course like all businesses, the Catholics seek to present the view
that their religious cult is better product than that of their competitors; they also seek to demonise all competitors, and thus naturally, to the
evangelical Catholics, Masons are portrayed as Satanists; this is unsurprising since Biblical fanatics generally tend to portray all their opponents
and competing religion businesses as Satanists.
However, the argument that a critic of Masonry cannot offer valid criticisms of Masonry and therefore their criticisms must be "bull#," or "untrue,"
is simply a logical fallacy. It is most certainly the case that Watchy "does" at times talk a lot of "bull#," however the articles critical of Masonry
which I cited from his web site were not written by Watchy; they are simply articles which Watchy has copied and pasted from other sources on the
In US craft masonry, any money generated and used by the lodge comes from it's members. NO OUTSIDE SOLICITATION happens. We are a private
organization. What we do with our money is purely our business. The fact that we choose to help other with some of that money is our choice alone.
No man outside of the masonic fraternity has any business worrying about how we spend our money. If you wish to have a say in the matter, join, if
not, complain about your own personal finances. What we do inside our doors is private. If you want to know what it's about, join. If not, then
worry about how you will spend your free time. We are an open society to any and all who wish to join our group, providing they meet the requirements.
Freemasonry is part of the multi-billion dollar cult religion business, however this is not what is being disputed; as I understand it some Masonic
Lodges operate as private franchises, much like a McDonalds or Burger King franchise; all appear to be purely religion businesses engaged in the
buying and selling of fake degrees and titles however some of them appear to be registered charities, just like many other types of Temples in the
religious business; the allegations against the Shriner and Jester cults are allegations against registered charities which allegedly raise money for
chidren's hospitals, and use the money to finance events which have been described as drunken festivities where strippers, prostitutes and sex slaves
(trafficked women) are in attendance.
As for you Lucifer777 and whomever you might have been before this user name, I can only say, good luck to you in life.
Originally posted by Skyfloating
I experienced masonic charity in a hospice for dying children last week first hand. From that perspective I consider the idea of it being a "scam" a
violent affront to every truth-loving person.
Again, this is just another logical fallacy; it is not being disputed that the Shriners operate hospitals. Essentially this is the equivalent of
stating "I have seen a Shriner hospital / hospice, so therefore all the allegations and criticisms against the Shriners of institutional corruption
must be false."
One could restate that as "The Catholics run hospitals so therefore priests do not abuse children"
Just to restate the New York Times allegations:
Jessica McGowan for The New York Times
(John C. Goline's) faith was shaken when he joined the leadership of the Suez Shriners in San Angelo, one of 191 temples affiliated with the order.
He found that much of the money collected to support the hospitals was commingled with money used for liquor, parties and members’ travel to Shrine
events. The Shrine’s national auditor largely confirmed his findings, but not before Mr. Goline was forced out of office.
His experience is not unique. An examination by The New York Times of Shrine records and minutes of Shrine meetings and interviews with current and
former Shrine officials painted a picture of lax accounting procedures and oversight under which money earmarked for the hospitals instead financed
The examination found these things:
¶More than 57 percent of the $32 million the Shriners raised in 2005 through circuses, bingo games, raffles and a variety of sales went to costs of
the fraternity, including keeping temple liquor cabinets full and offering expenses-paid trips to Shrine meetings and other events.
¶Only 2 percent of the Shrine hospitals’ operating income comes from money raised by Shrine temples and members’ dues. (The bulk is supplied by
the hospitals’ $9 billion endowment.)
¶A top Shrine official told a meeting of temple treasurers that poor accounting for cash coming into the organization was “an increasingly common
problem,” and that more than 30 temples had discovered fraud — like theft of money and inventory, altered bank statements, padded payrolls and
fake invoices — amounting to as much as $300,000 and involving members of their “divans,” the five-member boards that govern each temple.
Yet whistle-blowers like Mr. Goline are often greeted with hostility, retaliation and official sanctions.
“.......Critics say the line has been blurred between money raised for the hospitals and for members’ entertainment.
“Money raised for the hospitals is being used to pay for parties and liquor and trips, and they know it,” said Johnny L. Edwards, who was a leader
of Oasis Shrine in Charlotte, N.C., until he began campaigning for better control over money. “The way I see it, they’re stealing from crippled
Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Lucifer777
An award-winning businessman killed his wife's lover with a kitchen knife in 'the ultimate act of revenge'. Paul Fleming, 31, told friends he
wanted to 'get rid of' Robert Hordern, who had begun an affair with his wife Gemma at the Glastonbury music festival. Armed with a carving knife, he
confronted Mr Hordern to 'draw a line' under the adulterous relationship.
so it would seem that most males in your town are jealous murderers. It's a shame you live in such a violent area.
Of course that is a very illogical argument, as it is only looking at a very small section of the residents of your town, and then making a sweeping
generalization without much thought. Kind of like what you did here. You took some allegations, not even convictions, and then suggested that it
represents all of US masonry.
Again although it appears that "network dude" is addressing an alleged logical fallacy, he is actually presenting a logical fallacy.
Just because "some" Catholic priest abuse children, this does not mean that all Catholic priests abuse children, but the allegations against
Catholicism go much deeper than this; it is alleged that the hierarchy of the Church knowingly protected such persons, had a policy of protecting them
and simply covered up their crimes and transferred them from parish to parish. Further the Marxist, Nietzschean and Thelemic critiques of the Catholic
institution go much deeper than this, and I will not go into this here; however the point I wish to make is that the allegations against the Shriner
and Jester Masonic cults are not simply allegations against one person or against "some" persons, but rather of institutional corruption.
Originally posted by WormTyrant
Of course some Shriners and Masons have been caught engaging in nefarious activities. They are only human and any group has it's small share of
weak-minded fools that try to ruin it for the rest.
Again this is an argument which merely claims that "some" Masons have been caught engaging in nefarious (wicked or criminal) activities and which does
not address the accusations of institutional corruption.
Always such obsessive, hysterical undertones in peoples voices and words when attacking the Brotherhoods. I wish the detractors would at least
tone it down.
How many times has this already been argued though ? by Masons and non-Masons alike ?
I have to point out that what is occurring here is "not" an "argument" as Socrates or philosophers debating at the Oxford debating society would
understand the term. I have simply presented press articles which contain criticisms of the world's largest charity, and the response from Masonic
apologists has been simply the usual variety of contradiction, abuse, sophistry, temper tantrums, argument fallacies and the kind of "denialism" which
commonly occurs with victims of cult mind control who commonly go into a state of denial when their particular brand of cult religion is subjected to
Lux you have every right to 'not to accept the Judgement' of most sober, non-obsessives on the matter. I just hope for your sake you don't
expect them to really care that much, because in the end they won't.
I am certainly not obsessed with Freemasonry; however since this is a "secret societies" forum and there are Freemasons here whom I assume "are"
obsessed with Masonry, I think it to be the perfect place to subject Masonry to critical analysis and observe the responses from Masonic cultists; and
no, of course I don't expect Masonic cultists to really care about the institutional corruption of their cult; cult hypnosis and indoctrination
generally does not make a person critical of their cult; on the contrary. I do not anyway engage in such debates for the benefit of the religionists
themselves, most of whom I consider ideological enemies and the enemies of humankind.
Debating is anyway an intellectual exercise for those who engage in it properly, and further it leaves a permanent Internet trail which allows both
self analysis and allows one to speak to all peoples and nations and to sit in judgement on the living and the dead.
I am a Mason in both America and Australia, Living in Australia, I'm proud to say I am a founding member of the Melbourne Shrine Club under
Aahmes Temple Don't worry Mate, the Shriners are coming
Again this is just the usual kind of cult arrogance which I have come to expect from cult apologists, and which does not address the crticisms of the
cult's institutional corruption. It is simply a statement of pride, much like the ramblings of Christians who, rather than deal with the crticisms of
that vile religion, just go into preaching mode.
Allegations are always nasty. I've also been told that oral sex, sacrifice, prayers to Satan, and so on are a part of the Blue Lodge degrees.
Allegations don't equal truth.
Again this is just a common distraction fallacy, which equates for example the New York Times allegations with allegations of "oral sex, sacrifice,
prayers to Satan" etc. If Masons do not have "oral sex" then they are probably sexually dysfunctional. In Europe the "sex industry" is totally
legalised and, for example, in the UK, British government employment centres recruit staff for brothels. We Europeans are not as sexually inhibited as
repressed Christian Americans; the allegations of institutional corruption against US Masonry has nothing to do with whether Masons have oral sex or
not, whether the unfounded allegations that they engage in human sacrifice or worship a being called Satan; on the contrary.
Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Originally posted by Lucifer777
Since this is "debating" forum, the motion that I am presenting on this forum is that "regular" Masonry is essentially a corrupt gang of assorted
conservative Capitalists, aristocrats, monarchists, anti-Communists and Anglo-American state terrorist / narco-terrorist collaborators and various
assorted "untermensch," and that the philosophical inheritors of the radical 18th century Illumnists are persons such as myself who represent the vast
myriads of European Socialists, Anarchists, Neomarxists, Neopagans, Luciferians, philosophical Satanists, anti-Christians, anti-religionists,
So apropos of nothing in particular, the exception proves the rule and the miniscule minority is emblematic of the majority?
Again this is simply an attempt to argue that the institutional corruption of Masonry and the alleged widespread use of charity funds to put on
drunken parties is simply due to a few "bad apples," but this is not what is being alleged; on the contrary.
And presumably you stylise yourself as part of the Übermensch?
Nietzsche's "Ubermensch (superior man, an woman)" has nothing to do with relgious models of "perfection," which are mostly models of religious
schizophrenics (such as Jesus & Mohammad) and it is a perfectly natural and attainable model which describes a modern, educated, scientific, rational,
freethinking, ethical, sacreligious person who is totally free of the "slave morality" of religious hypnosis and indoctrination, and who submits only
to the highest authority of human reason and intuition. When I say that this is perfectly "attainable," it is of course impossible in my judgement for
a member of a hierarchical religious cult such as the Masonic priesthood to attain such a state, and I think that the defence strategy of the Masonic
apologists here is indicative of that.
Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Lucifer777
it's not arrogance, and I am sure you have much more book knowledge than I, based on your assertions that you have theological degrees. What you
describe of the way masonry is in the US, is false. Why? because I am a member on the inside and I know for a FACT what goes on when the doors
close. It's not arrogance that your professors knew more about the subject you were about to take. They had already been there and encountered the
material you had yet to learn.
Again this is just a repitition of the standard cult defense; it is essentially a defence which states "Only if you join our cult and submit to our
hierarchy and to cult hypnosis and indoctrination, can you understand our cult"
If this was the case, every academic department of religious studies would simply cease to exist. Obviously a victim or perpetrator of cult hypnosis
and indoctrination is going to be less critical or non critical of their cult, and will have a different perspective that a person who merely wishes
to study and analyse their cult.
With regards to what happens when the "doors" close in Masonry, probably almost all of the Masonic cult initiation rituals have been published on the
Internet if one wishes to read them. As opposed to being "Satanic" rituals, a common complaint regarding Masonic ritualism is that they are "boring"
and "monotonous ("Dull, tedious, and repetitious
");" of course the same thing could be said of any relgious ritual by a person who is immune to
religious indoctrination and hypnosis; never the less, no matter how dull and tedious they are, such rituals can still be very effective in producing
a mind controlled cultist. Further if Masonic rituals really were "Satanic" I am quite sure that their membership would be increasing and not
declining, since Satanism is rather popular and fashionable in the modern culture; hence the growth of the Neopagan movement.
It's very obvious that you are a ME person. You are very caught up in what is in it for you and could care less about others. That's fine and
I am sure you will refute that with a witty retort, but in your heart, you know that is true.
It is my impression, at least with regards to British Masonry that they operate very much like a gang of organised Capitalists, and that a central
motivation for cult membership is economic. In contrast, I have essentially retired from economic activities; I spent far too many years doing that
and I have lost interest; I don't consider myself to be a selfish person; I have nothing to gain personally from political activism; on the contrary;
I am merely part of the invisible college which is engaged in the Final Revolutionary War against religion and against the subhuman proponents of
religion; it is essentially a war for the salvation of humankind as far as I am concerned.
the allegations presented in the OP are what they are. The incident with the Jesters happened. there was proof and those involved were
punished. Only a complete idiot would think that an incident such as that was indicative of the group as a whole, much like my earlier example of how
the men in your town must be insecure murderers. You list charges that have no proof about what Shriners do with their money and time. If you have a
problem understanding that fact, I suggest you go back and read the links you provided. they do not contain any proof of wrong doing, only
supposition and innuendo.
Again this is simple "contradiction." The "evidence" of institutional corruption in US Masonry is clearly stated in the New York Times article. Just
to claim "I don't agree with that" or "I don't consider that proof" is simply contradiction without argument or evidence.
Until you grow spiritually and understand your place in life, you will probably be the self absorbed entity that you represent today. I truly
hope that your growth happens sooner, rather than later.
"Spiritual" and "Spiritual growth" are hypnotic keywords used in many cult religions. As far as I am concerned that is simply "Doublespeak." When a
religious cultist refers to "spiritual growth" it generally means a state where the cultist has succumbed to cult hypnosis and indoctrination and has
begun to exhibit the symptoms of religious based schitzophrenia.
Doublespeak is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words... (for example, naming a state of war "peace").
By the term "spiritual," religionists are referring to the human consciousness, and it is a statement of the obvious that we all are conscious and
that consciousness is not material; however a hghly developed mind (i.e., consciousness) in Nietzschean terms is exactly the opposite state of what a
religious cultist refers to as "spiritual growth."
The "model" of "spiritual perfection" in Christianity is that of a fictional religious schizophrenic and exorcst who believed that his followers would
have the power to miraculously cure leprosy, blindness, raise the dead and move mountains into the sea and whose stated religion was a fundametnalist
form of Mosaic Judaism (strict adherence to the primitive and savage Mosaic Law); this should make it clear that "spiritual growth" in Christendom
refers to displaying the symptoms of mental illness, religious fanaticism, preying on the sick, the disabled and the vulnerable and displaying the
symptoms of cult mind control which include "denialism" in the face of criticism.
To conclude I should just restate that the general Marxist and Nietzschean critique of religion would remain, irrespective of the allegations of
institutional corruption in Masonry; though it is interestng to observe the denialism and the mental contortions and hoops which cult apologists will
leap through in defence of criticism of their cult.
"The criticism of religion is the premise of all criticism."
The Antichrist (Extracts)
The Declaration of War against Christendom
"We should not deck out and embellish Christianity: it has waged a war to the death against this higher type of man, it has put all the deepest
instincts of this type under its ban, it has developed its concept of evil, of the Evil One himself, out of these instincts--the strong man as the
typical reprobate, the "outcast among men." Christianity has taken the part of all the weak, the low, the botched; it has made an ideal out of
antagonism to all the self-preservative instincts of sound life; it has corrupted even the faculties of those natures that are intellectually most
vigorous, by representing the highest intellectual values as sinful, as misleading, as full of temptation. The most lamentable example: the corruption
of Pascal, who believed that his intellect had been destroyed by original sin, whereas it was actually destroyed by Christianity!--
It is necessary to say just whom we regard as our antagonists: theologians and all who have any theological blood in their veins--this is our whole
philosophy. . . . One must have faced that menace at close hand, better still, one must have had experience of it directly and almost succumbed to it,
to realize that it is not to be taken lightly. This poisoning goes a great deal further than most people think:
So long as the priest, that professional denier, calumniator and poisoner of life, is accepted as a higher variety of man, there can be no answer to
the question, What is truth? Truth has already been stood on its head when the obvious attorney of mere emptiness is mistaken for its representative.
Upon this theological instinct I make war:
I find the tracks of it everywhere. Whoever has theological blood in his veins is shifty and dishonourable in all things. The pathetic thing that
grows out of this condition is called faith: in other words, closing one's eyes upon one's self once for all, to avoid suffering the sight of
incurable falsehood. People erect a concept of morality, of virtue, of holiness upon this false view of all things; they ground good conscience upon
faulty vision; they argue that no other sort of vision has value any more, once they have made theirs sacrosanct with the names of "God," "salvation"
I unearth this theological instinct in all directions: it is the most widespread and the most subterranean form of falsehood to be found on earth.
Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth. His profound instinct of self-preservation stands
against truth ever coming into honour in any way, or even getting stated.
Wherever the influence of theologians is felt there is a transvaluation of values, and the concepts "true" and "false" are forced to change places:
what ever is most damaging to life is there called "true," and whatever exalts it, intensifies it, approves it, justifies it and makes it triumphant
is there called "false."... When theologians, working through the "consciences" of princes (or of peoples--), stretch out their hands for power, there
is never any doubt as to the fundamental issue: the will to make an end, the nihilistic will exerts that power...
..God becomes the formula for every slander upon the "here and now," and for every lie about the "beyond"! In him nothingness is deified, and the will
to nothingness is made holy! . . .
Christianity also stands in opposition to all intellectual well-being,--sick reasoning is the only sort that it can use as Christian reasoning; it
takes the side of everything that is idiotic; it pronounces a curse upon "intellect," upon the superbia of the healthy intellect. Since sickness is
inherent in Christianity, it follows that the typically Christian state of "faith" must be a form of sickness too, .... "Faith" means the will to
avoid knowing what is true. ...... The impulse to lie--it is by this that I recognize every foreordained theologian.--
..--With this I come to a conclusion and pronounce my judgment. I condemn Christianity; I bring against the Christian church the most terrible of all
the accusations that an accuser has ever had in his mouth. It is, to me, the greatest of all imaginable corruptions; it seeks to work the ultimate
corruption, the worst possible corruption. The Christian church has left nothing untouched by its depravity; it has turned every value into
worthlessness, and every truth into a lie, and every integrity into baseness of soul. Let any one dare to speak to me of its "humanitarian" blessings!
Its deepest necessities range it against any effort to abolish distress; it lives by distress; it creates distress to make itself immortal. . . . . .
a will to lie at any price, ,,,,Parasitism as the only practice of the church; with its anaemic and "holy" ideals, sucking all the blood, all the
love, all the hope out of life; the beyond as the will to deny all reality; the cross as the distinguishing mark of the most subterranean conspiracy
ever heard of,--against health, beauty, well-being, intellect, kindness of soul--against life itself. . . .
This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be
able to see. . . . I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means
are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,--I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race. . . .
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