On Masonic Charity. The world's largest non religious charity scam. On the Shriners and Jesters., page 3

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

it's not arrogance, and I am sure you have much more book knowledge than I, based on your assertions that you have theological degrees. What you describe of the way masonry is in the US, is false. Why? because I am a member on the inside and I know for a FACT what goes on when the doors close. It's not arrogance that your professors knew more about the subject you were about to take. They had already been there and encountered the material you had yet to learn. It's very obvious that you are a ME person. You are very caught up in what is in it for you and could care less about others. That's fine and I am sure you will refute that with a witty retort, but in your heart, you know that is true.

the allegations presented in the OP are what they are. The incident with the Jesters happened. there was proof and those involved were punished. Only a complete idiot would think that an incident such as that was indicative of the group as a whole, much like my earlier example of how the men in your town must be insecure murderers. You list charges that have no proof about what Shriners do with their money and time. If you have a problem understanding that fact, I suggest you go back and read the links you provided. they do not contain any proof of wrong doing, only supposition and innuendo.

Until you grow spiritually and understand your place in life, you will probably be the self absorbed entity that you represent today. I truly hope that your growth happens sooner, rather than later.

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

If the Shrine only donated 1% of it's funds to its hospitals.. the hospitals would all be defunct. Many Shriner temples cannot even maintain their buildings.

the Circus is also just a small portion of the Shrine. Most of the charitable money is donated or bequeathed upon death. As it is Dollar for Dollar, the Shrine is the largest charity.. and while you might find them to be cheap satanic jerks... tell that to a little child who received free of charge care from a Shriner next time you see one.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

---

And Worshipful means "Respectable" .. Worshipful Master = Respectable Sir.

EVIL!!!!!

We still use Worshipful for official titles too, most people don't know that Honorable is another translation (and more accurate no doubt) for Worshipful .. so instead of Worshipful Judge Smith .. we say the Honorable Judge Smith.

Master can be used to refer to a child, "young Master Smith" or "Messers" for the plural .. It's a general term for "One with Authority" "Presiding Officer" or someone skilled in a particular craft..

But of course, we would expect someone with numerous Theological Degrees to know this.

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

You know you could just look on the official website itself. It says it has some 340,000 members in the US, Canada, Mexico, Phillipines, Puerto Rico, and Panama. It's not just the US.

I never said there were only 1,200 Jesters.

Freemasonry is not nor has ever been a religion. We do not meet the basic requirements to be considered a religion. Actually 'worshipful' doesn't mean we worship them. In what body do we use the term "Messianic King"? Worshipful = respectful, honorable. Master = Mister (Mr.)

Whether a person actually believes in the Masonic rituals and the buying and selling of "fake degrees" and titles is quite another matter; they are still members of a cult religion which utilises religious hypnosis, indoctrination and mind control.

Your opinion only.

Well part of the education I glean from engaging cult members in discussion is to be able to study their rather stereotypical cult apologetics, and the defensiveness of Masons here is quite typical of cultists.

So what are we supposed to do? Agree with the lies spread about us?

reply to post by vinay86

---

Particularly to Freemasonry, the organization does not commit nefarious acts, only rogue members who forget the lessons taught and the same thing could be said about Christianity. You cannot damn the entire Masonic community for what a small group of Jesters did.

That is a disgusting accusation that you cannot back up. We help all that we can. The Shriners are starting to spread to the international scene, its quite possible that with their membership growth that their hospitals will soon be showing up. I mean, you are the same person who accused of doing nothing in India or during the Australia flooding and several of us proved that you were wrong.

Not displaying our charity to the media at every turn does not make us any less legitimate or your arguments against any more true.

Masonic leaders ordered no such genocide. Not every person of authority was or is a Freemason, and not every bad thing can be blamed on the Freemasons. That's just stupid and irrational. Quit trying to make Freemasonry a scapegoat for your perceived injustices.

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

Actually we use "Celestial Lodge Above" as a generic term to describe one's view of the afterlife, and we don't say its a "men's only" place.

I'll pass on your offers. There's so much more than physical world.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Lucifer777

---

I feel like any further discussion on this topic would be a waste of time, as you clearly don't see the logical fallacy of your claims. I will leave you with this.

Dialectical (Argument) Fallacies

"Dialectics is the Science of arguing well." Augustine

It seems to me that "anti-Masonry" is mostly a "Christian" sport; the Christian anti-Masons are simply proponents of one form of Capitalist Christianity who are attacking a competitor in the marketplace of the multi billion dollar religion business, and often all manner of bizzarre conspiracy theories are presented, whether there is any basis in truth or not.

I would like to just point out that I consider myself to be an anti-cultist and anti-religionist rather than an anti-Mason, and that Masonry is just one of many cult religions which operate as gangs of organised Capitalists; my essential critique of religous cultism is a Nietzschean, Neomarxist and Anarchist crtique, and I in no way wish to ally myself with the numerous religious fanatics who accuse Masons of being Satanists. If the Masons were philosophical and sacreligious Satanists, I would probably have a great deal of affinity with them, but this is not the case; they are simply a gang of religious Capitalists. It makes absolutely no difference to me what the "name" of your transcendental deity is, whether God, Satan, Brahaman or Mickey Mouse.

The "Masons rule the world" paranoia is generally ignored by most Communists; the International Dictatorship of Capitalism is a very real economic dictatorship and it is a rule of Capitalists, not Freemasons, though certainly many Masons are part of the Capitalist establishment.

The Communist and Anarchist agenda includes the total eradication of the economic and religious Archons. Collectivism and the eradication of the Capitalist economic Archons is essential for the creation of the "New Earth (economic heaven)" and the eradication of religious Archons is essential for the creation of the "New Heaven (i.e., the world of the mind);" in light of this Masonry must be seen as an anti-revolutionary movement and a Messianic religious cult which must, in time, be swept away along with the proponents of the various other memetic diseases of religion, and the defenders of the Capitalist establishment.

What I would like to do is to point out the symptoms of mind control. Generally indoctrinated cultists tend to be overdefensive and tend to utilise numerous types of argument fallacy; their point is not to engage in argument, but generally to utilise a plethora of argument fallacies including abuse, contradiction, sophistry, distraction fallacies, etc., and to engage in "cult defense" by all means necessary.

There are various forms of argument fallacy being used here, so firstlly let us consider what a "Logical fallacy" is.

For example, consider the statements:

1: "I am a Roman Catholic and I have never seen a priest rape and abuse a child, so therefore no priest has ever raped and abused a child
2: "All persons who accuse the Catholic Church of protecting child molesters are enemies of the Church, therefore their accusations are false."

Consider:

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Lucifer777


Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers). As I understand it, some Masonic lodges have charity status and others operate as franchise businesses, however as far as I am concerned they are just part of the multi-billion dollar religion business, irrespective of whether there are corruption charges against them or not.

that seems to be the problem. Your understanding of what masonry is has come from the wrong sources. With your father being a mason, that surprises the hell out of me. The bull sh!t on freemasonrywatch is just that. Yes the jesters thing happened, and years ago, before you had to be a mason to be a shriner, there was some trouble there.....

This is essentially the type of argument which I have given an example of as: 2: "All persons who accuse the Catholic Church of protecting child molesters are enemies of the Church, so therfore their accusations are false."

Certainly "Watchy," who is the site owner of www.freemasonrywatch.org... can be defined as an anti-Mason, however Watchy is also a religious cultist; he is a Roman Catholic and thus a member of the world's largest anti-revolutionary religious cult; he simply represents a cult which is competing for market share in the multi-billion dollar religion business, and of course like all businesses, the Catholics seek to present the view that their religious cult is better product than that of their competitors; they also seek to demonise all competitors, and thus naturally, to the evangelical Catholics, Masons are portrayed as Satanists; this is unsurprising since Biblical fanatics generally tend to portray all their opponents and competing religion businesses as Satanists.

However, the argument that a critic of Masonry cannot offer valid criticisms of Masonry and therefore their criticisms must be "bull#," or "untrue," is simply a logical fallacy. It is most certainly the case that Watchy "does" at times talk a lot of "bull#," however the articles critical of Masonry which I cited from his web site were not written by Watchy; they are simply articles which Watchy has copied and pasted from other sources on the Internet.

In US craft masonry, any money generated and used by the lodge comes from it's members. NO OUTSIDE SOLICITATION happens. We are a private organization. What we do with our money is purely our business. The fact that we choose to help other with some of that money is our choice alone. No man outside of the masonic fraternity has any business worrying about how we spend our money. If you wish to have a say in the matter, join, if not, complain about your own personal finances. What we do inside our doors is private. If you want to know what it's about, join. If not, then worry about how you will spend your free time. We are an open society to any and all who wish to join our group, providing they meet the requirements.

Freemasonry is part of the multi-billion dollar cult religion business, however this is not what is being disputed; as I understand it some Masonic Lodges operate as private franchises, much like a McDonalds or Burger King franchise; all appear to be purely religion businesses engaged in the buying and selling of fake degrees and titles however some of them appear to be registered charities, just like many other types of Temples in the religious business; the allegations against the Shriner and Jester cults are allegations against registered charities which allegedly raise money for chidren's hospitals, and use the money to finance events which have been described as drunken festivities where strippers, prostitutes and sex slaves (trafficked women) are in attendance.

As for you Lucifer777 and whomever you might have been before this user name, I can only say, good luck to you in life.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
I experienced masonic charity in a hospice for dying children last week first hand. From that perspective I consider the idea of it being a "scam" a violent affront to every truth-loving person.

Again, this is just another logical fallacy; it is not being disputed that the Shriners operate hospitals. Essentially this is the equivalent of stating "I have seen a Shriner hospital / hospice, so therefore all the allegations and criticisms against the Shriners of institutional corruption must be false." One could restate that as "The Catholics run hospitals so therefore priests do not abuse children"

Just to restate the New York Times allegations:

Jessica McGowan for The New York Times

www.nytimes.com...


(John C. Goline's) faith was shaken when he joined the leadership of the Suez Shriners in San Angelo, one of 191 temples affiliated with the order. He found that much of the money collected to support the hospitals was commingled with money used for liquor, parties and members’ travel to Shrine events. The Shrine’s national auditor largely confirmed his findings, but not before Mr. Goline was forced out of office.

His experience is not unique. An examination by The New York Times of Shrine records and minutes of Shrine meetings and interviews with current and former Shrine officials painted a picture of lax accounting procedures and oversight under which money earmarked for the hospitals instead financed temple activities.

The examination found these things:

¶More than 57 percent of the $32 million the Shriners raised in 2005 through circuses, bingo games, raffles and a variety of sales went to costs of the fraternity, including keeping temple liquor cabinets full and offering expenses-paid trips to Shrine meetings and other events.

¶Only 2 percent of the Shrine hospitals’ operating income comes from money raised by Shrine temples and members’ dues. (The bulk is supplied by the hospitals’ $9 billion endowment.)

¶A top Shrine official told a meeting of temple treasurers that poor accounting for cash coming into the organization was “an increasingly common problem,” and that more than 30 temples had discovered fraud — like theft of money and inventory, altered bank statements, padded payrolls and fake invoices — amounting to as much as $300,000 and involving members of their “divans,” the five-member boards that govern each temple.

Yet whistle-blowers like Mr. Goline are often greeted with hostility, retaliation and official sanctions.

“.......Critics say the line has been blurred between money raised for the hospitals and for members’ entertainment.

“Money raised for the hospitals is being used to pay for parties and liquor and trips, and they know it,” said Johnny L. Edwards, who was a leader of Oasis Shrine in Charlotte, N.C., until he began campaigning for better control over money. “The way I see it, they’re stealing from crippled children.”

............

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Lucifer777

---

An award-winning businessman killed his wife's lover with a kitchen knife in 'the ultimate act of revenge'. Paul Fleming, 31, told friends he wanted to 'get rid of' Robert Hordern, who had begun an affair with his wife Gemma at the Glastonbury music festival. Armed with a carving knife, he confronted Mr Hordern to 'draw a line' under the adulterous relationship.

source

so it would seem that most males in your town are jealous murderers. It's a shame you live in such a violent area.

Of course that is a very illogical argument, as it is only looking at a very small section of the residents of your town, and then making a sweeping generalization without much thought. Kind of like what you did here. You took some allegations, not even convictions, and then suggested that it represents all of US masonry.

Again although it appears that "network dude" is addressing an alleged logical fallacy, he is actually presenting a logical fallacy.

Just because "some" Catholic priest abuse children, this does not mean that all Catholic priests abuse children, but the allegations against Catholicism go much deeper than this; it is alleged that the hierarchy of the Church knowingly protected such persons, had a policy of protecting them and simply covered up their crimes and transferred them from parish to parish. Further the Marxist, Nietzschean and Thelemic critiques of the Catholic institution go much deeper than this, and I will not go into this here; however the point I wish to make is that the allegations against the Shriner and Jester Masonic cults are not simply allegations against one person or against "some" persons, but rather of institutional corruption.

Originally posted by WormTyrant

Of course some Shriners and Masons have been caught engaging in nefarious activities. They are only human and any group has it's small share of weak-minded fools that try to ruin it for the rest.

Again this is an argument which merely claims that "some" Masons have been caught engaging in nefarious (wicked or criminal) activities and which does not address the accusations of institutional corruption.

Always such obsessive, hysterical undertones in peoples voices and words when attacking the Brotherhoods. I wish the detractors would at least tone it down.

How many times has this already been argued though ? by Masons and non-Masons alike ?

I have to point out that what is occurring here is "not" an "argument" as Socrates or philosophers debating at the Oxford debating society would understand the term. I have simply presented press articles which contain criticisms of the world's largest charity, and the response from Masonic apologists has been simply the usual variety of contradiction, abuse, sophistry, temper tantrums, argument fallacies and the kind of "denialism" which commonly occurs with victims of cult mind control who commonly go into a state of denial when their particular brand of cult religion is subjected to criticism.

Lux you have every right to 'not to accept the Judgement' of most sober, non-obsessives on the matter. I just hope for your sake you don't expect them to really care that much, because in the end they won't.

I am certainly not obsessed with Freemasonry; however since this is a "secret societies" forum and there are Freemasons here whom I assume "are" obsessed with Masonry, I think it to be the perfect place to subject Masonry to critical analysis and observe the responses from Masonic cultists; and no, of course I don't expect Masonic cultists to really care about the institutional corruption of their cult; cult hypnosis and indoctrination generally does not make a person critical of their cult; on the contrary. I do not anyway engage in such debates for the benefit of the religionists themselves, most of whom I consider ideological enemies and the enemies of humankind.

Debating is anyway an intellectual exercise for those who engage in it properly, and further it leaves a permanent Internet trail which allows both self analysis and allows one to speak to all peoples and nations and to sit in judgement on the living and the dead.

I am a Mason in both America and Australia, Living in Australia, I'm proud to say I am a founding member of the Melbourne Shrine Club under Aahmes Temple Don't worry Mate, the Shriners are coming

Again this is just the usual kind of cult arrogance which I have come to expect from cult apologists, and which does not address the crticisms of the cult's institutional corruption. It is simply a statement of pride, much like the ramblings of Christians who, rather than deal with the crticisms of that vile religion, just go into preaching mode.

Allegations are always nasty. I've also been told that oral sex, sacrifice, prayers to Satan, and so on are a part of the Blue Lodge degrees. Allegations don't equal truth.

Again this is just a common distraction fallacy, which equates for example the New York Times allegations with allegations of "oral sex, sacrifice, prayers to Satan" etc. If Masons do not have "oral sex" then they are probably sexually dysfunctional. In Europe the "sex industry" is totally legalised and, for example, in the UK, British government employment centres recruit staff for brothels. We Europeans are not as sexually inhibited as repressed Christian Americans; the allegations of institutional corruption against US Masonry has nothing to do with whether Masons have oral sex or not, whether the unfounded allegations that they engage in human sacrifice or worship a being called Satan; on the contrary.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by Lucifer777
Since this is "debating" forum, the motion that I am presenting on this forum is that "regular" Masonry is essentially a corrupt gang of assorted conservative Capitalists, aristocrats, monarchists, anti-Communists and Anglo-American state terrorist / narco-terrorist collaborators and various assorted "untermensch," and that the philosophical inheritors of the radical 18th century Illumnists are persons such as myself who represent the vast myriads of European Socialists, Anarchists, Neomarxists, Neopagans, Luciferians, philosophical Satanists, anti-Christians, anti-religionists, humanists etc.

So apropos of nothing in particular, the exception proves the rule and the miniscule minority is emblematic of the majority?

Again this is simply an attempt to argue that the institutional corruption of Masonry and the alleged widespread use of charity funds to put on drunken parties is simply due to a few "bad apples," but this is not what is being alleged; on the contrary.

And presumably you stylise yourself as part of the Übermensch?

Nietzsche's "Ubermensch (superior man, an woman)" has nothing to do with relgious models of "perfection," which are mostly models of religious schizophrenics (such as Jesus & Mohammad) and it is a perfectly natural and attainable model which describes a modern, educated, scientific, rational, freethinking, ethical, sacreligious person who is totally free of the "slave morality" of religious hypnosis and indoctrination, and who submits only to the highest authority of human reason and intuition. When I say that this is perfectly "attainable," it is of course impossible in my judgement for a member of a hierarchical religious cult such as the Masonic priesthood to attain such a state, and I think that the defence strategy of the Masonic apologists here is indicative of that.

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by Lucifer777

---

it's not arrogance, and I am sure you have much more book knowledge than I, based on your assertions that you have theological degrees. What you describe of the way masonry is in the US, is false. Why? because I am a member on the inside and I know for a FACT what goes on when the doors close. It's not arrogance that your professors knew more about the subject you were about to take. They had already been there and encountered the material you had yet to learn.

Again this is just a repitition of the standard cult defense; it is essentially a defence which states "Only if you join our cult and submit to our hierarchy and to cult hypnosis and indoctrination, can you understand our cult"
If this was the case, every academic department of religious studies would simply cease to exist. Obviously a victim or perpetrator of cult hypnosis and indoctrination is going to be less critical or non critical of their cult, and will have a different perspective that a person who merely wishes to study and analyse their cult.

With regards to what happens when the "doors" close in Masonry, probably almost all of the Masonic cult initiation rituals have been published on the Internet if one wishes to read them. As opposed to being "Satanic" rituals, a common complaint regarding Masonic ritualism is that they are "boring" and "monotonous ("Dull, tedious, and repetitious");" of course the same thing could be said of any relgious ritual by a person who is immune to religious indoctrination and hypnosis; never the less, no matter how dull and tedious they are, such rituals can still be very effective in producing a mind controlled cultist. Further if Masonic rituals really were "Satanic" I am quite sure that their membership would be increasing and not declining, since Satanism is rather popular and fashionable in the modern culture; hence the growth of the Neopagan movement.

It's very obvious that you are a ME person. You are very caught up in what is in it for you and could care less about others. That's fine and I am sure you will refute that with a witty retort, but in your heart, you know that is true.

It is my impression, at least with regards to British Masonry that they operate very much like a gang of organised Capitalists, and that a central motivation for cult membership is economic. In contrast, I have essentially retired from economic activities; I spent far too many years doing that and I have lost interest; I don't consider myself to be a selfish person; I have nothing to gain personally from political activism; on the contrary; I am merely part of the invisible college which is engaged in the Final Revolutionary War against religion and against the subhuman proponents of religion; it is essentially a war for the salvation of humankind as far as I am concerned.

the allegations presented in the OP are what they are. The incident with the Jesters happened. there was proof and those involved were punished. Only a complete idiot would think that an incident such as that was indicative of the group as a whole, much like my earlier example of how the men in your town must be insecure murderers. You list charges that have no proof about what Shriners do with their money and time. If you have a problem understanding that fact, I suggest you go back and read the links you provided. they do not contain any proof of wrong doing, only supposition and innuendo.

Again this is simple "contradiction." The "evidence" of institutional corruption in US Masonry is clearly stated in the New York Times article. Just to claim "I don't agree with that" or "I don't consider that proof" is simply contradiction without argument or evidence.

Until you grow spiritually and understand your place in life, you will probably be the self absorbed entity that you represent today. I truly hope that your growth happens sooner, rather than later.

"Spiritual" and "Spiritual growth" are hypnotic keywords used in many cult religions. As far as I am concerned that is simply "Doublespeak." When a religious cultist refers to "spiritual growth" it generally means a state where the cultist has succumbed to cult hypnosis and indoctrination and has begun to exhibit the symptoms of religious based schitzophrenia.

Doublespeak is language that deliberately disguises, distorts, or reverses the meaning of words... (for example, naming a state of war "peace").
en.wikipedia.org...

By the term "spiritual," religionists are referring to the human consciousness, and it is a statement of the obvious that we all are conscious and that consciousness is not material; however a hghly developed mind (i.e., consciousness) in Nietzschean terms is exactly the opposite state of what a religious cultist refers to as "spiritual growth."

The "model" of "spiritual perfection" in Christianity is that of a fictional religious schizophrenic and exorcst who believed that his followers would have the power to miraculously cure leprosy, blindness, raise the dead and move mountains into the sea and whose stated religion was a fundametnalist form of Mosaic Judaism (strict adherence to the primitive and savage Mosaic Law); this should make it clear that "spiritual growth" in Christendom refers to displaying the symptoms of mental illness, religious fanaticism, preying on the sick, the disabled and the vulnerable and displaying the symptoms of cult mind control which include "denialism" in the face of criticism.

To conclude I should just restate that the general Marxist and Nietzschean critique of religion would remain, irrespective of the allegations of institutional corruption in Masonry; though it is interestng to observe the denialism and the mental contortions and hoops which cult apologists will leap through in defence of criticism of their cult.


Lux
"The criticism of religion is the premise of all criticism."

_____________

The Antichrist (Extracts)
Friedrich Nietzsche

The Declaration of War against Christendom

"We should not deck out and embellish Christianity: it has waged a war to the death against this higher type of man, it has put all the deepest instincts of this type under its ban, it has developed its concept of evil, of the Evil One himself, out of these instincts--the strong man as the typical reprobate, the "outcast among men." Christianity has taken the part of all the weak, the low, the botched; it has made an ideal out of antagonism to all the self-preservative instincts of sound life; it has corrupted even the faculties of those natures that are intellectually most vigorous, by representing the highest intellectual values as sinful, as misleading, as full of temptation. The most lamentable example: the corruption of Pascal, who believed that his intellect had been destroyed by original sin, whereas it was actually destroyed by Christianity!--

It is necessary to say just whom we regard as our antagonists: theologians and all who have any theological blood in their veins--this is our whole philosophy. . . . One must have faced that menace at close hand, better still, one must have had experience of it directly and almost succumbed to it, to realize that it is not to be taken lightly. This poisoning goes a great deal further than most people think:

So long as the priest, that professional denier, calumniator and poisoner of life, is accepted as a higher variety of man, there can be no answer to the question, What is truth? Truth has already been stood on its head when the obvious attorney of mere emptiness is mistaken for its representative.
.
Upon this theological instinct I make war:

I find the tracks of it everywhere. Whoever has theological blood in his veins is shifty and dishonourable in all things. The pathetic thing that grows out of this condition is called faith: in other words, closing one's eyes upon one's self once for all, to avoid suffering the sight of incurable falsehood. People erect a concept of morality, of virtue, of holiness upon this false view of all things; they ground good conscience upon faulty vision; they argue that no other sort of vision has value any more, once they have made theirs sacrosanct with the names of "God," "salvation" and "eternity."

I unearth this theological instinct in all directions: it is the most widespread and the most subterranean form of falsehood to be found on earth. Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth. His profound instinct of self-preservation stands against truth ever coming into honour in any way, or even getting stated.

Wherever the influence of theologians is felt there is a transvaluation of values, and the concepts "true" and "false" are forced to change places: what ever is most damaging to life is there called "true," and whatever exalts it, intensifies it, approves it, justifies it and makes it triumphant is there called "false."... When theologians, working through the "consciences" of princes (or of peoples--), stretch out their hands for power, there is never any doubt as to the fundamental issue: the will to make an end, the nihilistic will exerts that power...

..God becomes the formula for every slander upon the "here and now," and for every lie about the "beyond"! In him nothingness is deified, and the will to nothingness is made holy! . . .

Christianity also stands in opposition to all intellectual well-being,--sick reasoning is the only sort that it can use as Christian reasoning; it takes the side of everything that is idiotic; it pronounces a curse upon "intellect," upon the superbia of the healthy intellect. Since sickness is inherent in Christianity, it follows that the typically Christian state of "faith" must be a form of sickness too, .... "Faith" means the will to avoid knowing what is true. ...... The impulse to lie--it is by this that I recognize every foreordained theologian.--

..
..--With this I come to a conclusion and pronounce my judgment. I condemn Christianity; I bring against the Christian church the most terrible of all the accusations that an accuser has ever had in his mouth. It is, to me, the greatest of all imaginable corruptions; it seeks to work the ultimate corruption, the worst possible corruption. The Christian church has left nothing untouched by its depravity; it has turned every value into worthlessness, and every truth into a lie, and every integrity into baseness of soul. Let any one dare to speak to me of its "humanitarian" blessings! Its deepest necessities range it against any effort to abolish distress; it lives by distress; it creates distress to make itself immortal. . . . . . a will to lie at any price, ,,,,Parasitism as the only practice of the church; with its anaemic and "holy" ideals, sucking all the blood, all the love, all the hope out of life; the beyond as the will to deny all reality; the cross as the distinguishing mark of the most subterranean conspiracy ever heard of,--against health, beauty, well-being, intellect, kindness of soul--against life itself. . . .

This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see. . . . I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,--I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race. . . .

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

I feel sorry for you Lucy, I really do. but what I feel sorry for more is the Shriners and Jesters, I might be mistaken, but I believe I heard you're from Europe, hardly no Shriners and Jesters there, so how do you know what the Shriners are about? Have you heard the mothers crying thankfully as you announce their child will get the operation that will fix that kids club foot so they can grow up living a normal life? How about going to one of our Hospitals and seeing the kids there, knowing that they would have been doomed for a life of pain and agony had you not been there with a generous heart to care? I'm guessing not, people never see that part, they just see some article about how bad we all are, one person damns us all I guess. So I know the facts, for every 1 person that goes out and tells how great something is {restaurant, hospital, some kind of establishment}, there is 10 people that are willing to talk about how bad the place is, so think of it this way, do you think that by telling people this, those people will not be willing to donate $5 to the Shriners, and maybe that $5 would be all you need to keep a kid in our hopsital just one more day but because of you, you just screwed them... how would that make you feel Lucy? shame on you my friend, shame on you

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

What I was meaning when I said "In your opinion" was that Freemasonry is a religious cult and that the degrees (and there lessons) are fake. Unless one has gone through them one can hardly speak about them with expertise. Plus what is bad in teaching morality, truth, honesty, integrity, tolerance and so on?

There is no world wide Grand Master of York Rite Masonry. The York Rite I'm accustomed to has 3 bodies each with a distinct leadership.

Like I said before, "celestial Lodge" is a generic term for one's belief of heaven.

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

Let me know when you get to the 33rd Degree darlin

Originally posted by TheForgottenOnes
reply to post by Lucifer777

---

I feel sorry for you Lucy, I really do. but what I feel sorry for more is the Shriners and Jesters, I might be mistaken, but I believe I heard you're from Europe, hardly no Shriners and Jesters there, so how do you know what the Shriners are about? Have you heard the mothers crying thankfully as you announce their child will get the operation that will fix that kids club foot so they can grow up living a normal life? How about going to one of our Hospitals and seeing the kids there, knowing that they would have been doomed for a life of pain and agony had you not been there with a generous heart to care? I'm guessing not, people never see that part, they just see some article about how bad we all are, one person damns us all I guess. So I know the facts, for every 1 person that goes out and tells how great something is {restaurant, hospital, some kind of establishment}, there is 10 people that are willing to talk about how bad the place is, so think of it this way, do you think that by telling people this, those people will not be willing to donate $5 to the Shriners, and maybe that $5 would be all you need to keep a kid in our hopsital just one more day but because of you, you just screwed them... how would that make you feel Lucy? shame on you my friend, shame on you

Again, this is just another appeal to emotion and a "special pleading," which does not address the criticisms of the OP.

The charity business.

In the UK for example we have 185,000 registered charities, with 5000 new charities being registered each year. Many of these charities are simply businesses which contribute little or nothing to any humanitarian causes, particularly religious charities.

I recall the case of an African evangelical "exorcism" church in London which was under investigation by the charity commission and the media because the professional hypnotist (the clergyman) who ran it had a six figure income and drove a top of the range Mercedes; however the church was not to far from the residence of the Archbishop of Canturbury who has a similar income, lives in a palace (literally) and who is provided with staff, a chaffeur and a limousine; and even he lives relatively modestly in comparision to another of his neighbours who is the actual head of his church and Jesus' living representative on earth to all Anglicans (i.e., H.R.H. Elizabeth Windsor).

Many charites in the UK are simply businesses which provide six figure incomes for key personnel (see for example business.timesonline.co.uk... ). In the US which is the heart of the multi-billion dollar Jesus business, the situation seems to be no different with numerous multi-millionaire professional hypnotists (evangelists / exorcists). Probably one of the world's worst and most criticised non religious charities, for example is the Red Cross (see thebatscave.blogspot.com... ), and of course if one criticises the Red Cross, one could expect a similar response from it's apologists, arguing "look at all the good we do," as if this justifies the syphoning off of the majority of funds collected in "administration costs."

If people are less willing to donate to the Shriners and Jesters charities because of the "bad press," it is really innapropriate to criticise the press for writing such articles rather than criticising such Masonic charities themselves. Further it is simply indicative of the "cult mindset" to become overly defensive about any criticism of one's cult religion and to attempt to place one's fellow cultists beyond criticism, and this thread is a clear example of the over defensiveness of cult members where "I" seem to be the "Satan" for simply raising the matter on a forum were Masonic religious cultists hang out to defend their cult. I am merely interested in the somewhat predictable reactions of the cult members themselves.

While on the matter of how Masons use their charity funds, I notice that the latest article (Jan 2011) on Sandy Frost's website includes the following description of a Jester's event.

“The Royal Order of Jesters (ROJ) is a world wide fraternal organization whose membership is limited to individuals invited to join by other members. The motto of the ROJ is ‘mirth is king.’ The ROJ has local chapters or ‘courts.’ On occasion, a local court or group of local courts in the same geographical location sponsor social gatherings known as ‘books of the play’ or ‘books.’ The sponsoring courts organize the ‘books’ and arrange for food, lodging, and entertainment at the ‘book.’ Jesters from all over the country may attend the local ‘books.’ The ROJ also sponsors a yearly national ‘book,’ the equivalent of a national convention. In April, 2005, the Jester's national ‘book’ was held in Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada. As set forth below, a typical feature of a ‘book of the play’ is the presence of prostitutes (‘Jester Girls’) who engage in commercial sex acts with members of the ROJ. Arrangements for the prostitutes are generally made by the organizer of the ‘books,’ or the region hosting the national ‘book.’ On occasion, individual Jesters may make arrangements to transport prostitutes to ‘books.’”

sandyfrost.newsvine.com...

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers).

I am coming to the conclusion that American Masonry seems to be more of an excuse for drunken revelry, but I can assure you that Scottish Masonry (Masonry in Scotland as opposed to the Scottish Rite Masons in the US) is a sect of Messianic Christians who consider themselves to be Christian Knights of an ancient military priesthood; it is most certainly an organisation which can be defined as "religious"

I think someone needs a LOL...

Again, yes, there are some groups that a Mason can choose to join which explicitly require that their members be Christian. This does not mean that all of Masonry is Christian, or that Masonry itself is Christian.

Your showing of photos of members of these appendant bodies in their Christian Knights Templar-themed costumes is not proof of Masonry being Christian. It's proof of Christian appendant bodies based on the Knights Templar being, well, Christian appendant bodies based on the Knights Templar. (Gotta love a tautology...)

edit on 2011.2.20 by JoshNorton because: (no reason given)

I think I should make it clear that Masonry is just part of the multi-billion dollar religion business. "Anyone" can start a Masonic Lodge and run their Temple as a business, or a tax free charity and sell fake degrees, pompous military titles, and make up a series of rituals, and in fact many individuals have done just that; it is apparently a very profitable business; since the religion business offers the highest profit margins of any business, since they are essentially in the business of selling no-thing.

An "irregular" lodge is simply an independent religion which has been set up without having to gain the approval of the Grand Lodge in London, however the two main Masonic bodies in the UK, Scottish and English Masonry are part of the "Christian" business since their hierarchy appears to consider themselves to be "Christian Knights" and they only admit Christians; though their "Christ" is of course not "Jesus" but some mortal cult leader; never the less it is a Christian cult in the same way that the Messianic Korean cult of the billionaire arm's manufacturer and religious schizophrenic Sun Myung Moon is a Christian cult, though of course it is Moon who is the Christ.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Lucifer777

---

What I was meaning when I said "In your opinion" was that Freemasonry is a religious cult and that the degrees (and there lessons) are fake. Unless one has gone through them one can hardly speak about them with expertise.

Repeating the same point over and over again does not make it any more true. There are numerous Internet sites where one can read the various rituals of Masonry (such as www.phoenixmasonry.org... ). Obviously a person who has been initiated into a cult and is a victim of religious hypnosis and indoctrination will have a different understanding of the cult than a person who is merely studying the cult.

There are numerous varieties of esoteric initiation, from the pseudo-Greek US college fraternities and sororites to the numerous regular and irregual Masonic lodges to the numerous New Age Neopagan and Neowiccan covens and lodges, and all such initiation rituals have at some point been simply invented by the hierarchy of such lodges; it would simply not be possible for a student of religion to go through "all" such initiations; never the less one can study them.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by Lucifer777

---

Let me know when you get to the 33rd Degree darlin

Frankly I have found that most Freemasons don't even know what the 33 degrees are about anyway, and having read through many Masonic rituals it is hardly surprising, since I fail to see the correspondence with the "actual" 33 degrees; degrees which I have been studying, internalising and pathworking since my teens.

With regards to purchasing the 33 fake degrees of Masonry, I have no intention of doing so, since I consider Masonry to be heterodox (heretical) Kabbalism and a religion business scam; and by "heretical" I do not refer to the Kabbalah as being heretical but to the Masonic mumbo jumbo which is supposed to impart the knowledge of the 33 degrees.

Probably the best understanding of the 33 degrees of knowledge can gleaned without joining any cult and by simply studying Aleister Crowley's "Book of Thoth." I should point out that one cannot anyway fully understand the 33 degrees simply by reading about them, however rather than explain this, I will merely point to other prewritten essays I have on the subject.

Further the "ultimate" esoteric ritual cannot be anyway experienced in a "male only" cult. The internalisation of the 3, 11 and 33 degrees is not something that one can purchase from a religion business, and it seems to me that those who have purchased such degrees are usually devoid of "the knowledge" which is commonplace and commonly understood throughout the Neopagan movement where it is "not" at all a secret.

See also my essays on this subject: "The Kabbalah Simplified. For Children." on: www.davidicke.com... and "Kaballah Simplified Pt 2. The 33 and 38 degrees." on: www.davidicke.com...

Originally posted by KSigMason

---

Plus what is bad in teaching morality, truth, honesty, integrity, tolerance and so on?

That is simply religious doublespeak; I refer you to Nietzche's comments on this matter which I have posted in previous posts.

As long as the priest, that professional denier, calumniator and poisoner of life, is accepted as a higher variety of man, there can be no answer to the question, What is truth? Truth has already been stood on its head when the obvious attorney of mere emptiness is mistaken for its representative. .............Upon this theological instinct I make war: I find the tracks of it everywhere. Whoever has theological blood in his veins is shifty and dishonourable in all things. The pathetic thing that grows out of this condition is called faith: in other words, closing one's eyes upon one's self once for all, to avoid suffering the sight of incurable falsehood. People erect a concept of morality, of virtue, of holiness upon this false view of all things; they ground good conscience upon faulty vision; they argue that no other sort of vision has value any more, once they have made theirs sacrosanct with the names of "God," "salvation" and "eternity." I unearth this theological instinct in all directions: it is the most widespread and the most subterranean form of falsehood to be found on earth. Whatever a theologian regards as true must be false: there you have almost a criterion of truth. His profound instinct of self-preservation stands against truth ever coming into honour in any way, or even getting stated. Wherever the influence of theologians is felt there is a transvaluation of values, and the concepts "true" and "false" are forced to change places: what ever is most damaging to life is there called "true," and whatever exalts it, intensifies it, approves it, justifies it and makes it triumphant is there called "false."... When theologians, working through the "consciences" of princes (or of peoples--), stretch out their hands for power, there is never any doubt as to the fundamental issue: the will to make an end, the nihilistic will exerts that power...

Nietsche: The Antichrist

With regards to Masonic morality, I refer to my essay: " Masonic Degrees of Knowledge & Epistemology." on: www.davidicke.com...


Rather than just repeating myself over and over again, since I have responded to such matter of "Masonic morality" on numerous occasions, I cite from my on essay, hyperlinked above:

"If we take the example of the current cult leader of UGLE (united Grand Lodge of England) English Masonry as a "good" Mason, we find that this man is an aristocratic, monarchist; a man who holds the highest rank (of Field Marshall) in the Capitalist, imperialist, state terrorist / narco-terrorist military and whose cult includes many "good" Masons who are involved in the usury (loan sharking) industry and in various parts of the Capitalist and police state establishment.

Thus when a Mason states that a Mason is a "good and moral" Mason and then that their God is a "good and moral" god, we can produce a working definition of what is "good" by studying the behaviour of the Masons themselves. If a "good" Mason can be a Capitalist state terrorist / narco terrorist, Usuryist collaborator then logically it follows that the goodness of their "good god" must be defined similarly.

Thus we end up with a definition of a "good (in the moral sense)" god who is a state terrorist, narco-terrorist, Imperialist, capitalist, loan sharking, police state collaborator; a Capitalist devil in other words.

When Masons argue that this Capitalist devil whom they refer to as God is the Creator of the Universe, this is not a statement of "sense" but rather "non sense," since they cannot prove either by pure reason or by empirical observation that the Creator of the universe is a Capitalist devil of the ilk of the Masonic cultists themselves."



Unfortunately the term "good" is one of the most common hypnotic keywords used by professional hypnotists of the religion business. A "good" Catholic, a "good" Hindu, a "good" Communist and a "good" Freemason cannot be understood merely by a universal dictionary definition of the term "good," and by "good" I refer to moral (a discernment of good and evil) goodness as opposed to a "good ice cream" or a "good Jester's function" since the latter term may just refer to the quality of the strippers and prostitutes (or trafficked sex slaves) in attendence.

In Orwell's "1984," the state was of course "good" and Newspeak was not a new language; it was rather simply the English language where definitions of language were strictly defined by the state; this is also the case in organised religion where although religious cultists may use the English language and refer to themselves as "good," they usually have their own private "cult insider" definition of goodness,

Whenever a priest or a religionist uses the word "good," the goddess of nature (Mother nature) must tremble.

Lux

reply to post by KSigMason

---

Particularly to Freemasonry, the organization does not commit nefarious acts, only rogue members who forget the lessons taught and the same thing could be said about Christianity. You cannot damn the entire Masonic community for what a small group of Jesters did.

Many masons forgot their lessons throughout the history and murdered several innocents during war, revolutions and colonizations. What is in front of us doesn't need any proof, you haven't read the history of colonists. And you didn't know anything about East India Company, how it arrived in India and what it has done to India.

Q). When did Freemasonry come to India?
A). The honor of receiving Freemasonry in India goes to Calcutta. In 1730 officers of the East Indian Company held their meetings in Fort William, Calcutta. The number given to the Lodge was 72.

masonindia.org
You didn't know about your brother Robert Clive AKA "Clive of India"and his friends like general dyer and how they massacred thousands of innocents to dominate India and steal its resources, annihilated our ancient culture, and how they transferred wealth of third world to their countries. You don't know the reason why third world is so poverty stricken, because you haven't researched about the masonic law makers present in those countries from ages. 30 million were killed in India by those mason colonists and I haven't said anything about genocide of people in America, Africa, middle east and rest of Asia by the same mason colonists.

I can provide you with the names of masonic leaders, generals, revolutionists who murdered millions for profit and power, but I know you will keep your eyes closed, because you have been brainwashed by your grandmasters / slave masters to act as an army of stooges, defending horrendous acts being committed by your masters globally everyday.

Freemasonry is a private corporation, one of you has already admitted it to some extent. Freemasonry is a corporation engaged in waging wars, committing atrocities on innocents, and exploitation of countries for profit and power. you proved to me nothing, freemasonry has done nothing in India but more exploitation, it is right in front of me, I know all about our mason law makers and supreme court justices, and what oppressing laws they are making, donating a few dollars whenever disaster strikes, does not comes under the broad definition of a charitable organization. It comes under the earning of loyalty and goodwill of people like you and to mislead others who try to know about masonry, it is to conceal their clandestine devilish agendas.

Originally posted by vinay86
Freemasonry is a private corporation, one of you has already admitted it to some extent. Freemasonry is a corporation engaged in waging wars, committing atrocities on innocents, and exploitation of countries for profit and power.

You can expect all the usual denialism, however it does seem to me from a UK perspective that the Masons operate much like any other Capitalist gang. Almost all the major Capitalist gangs such as the Yakuza, the Triads and the Russian and Italian mafia have "religious" type initiation rituals, tests and obedience oaths, but the Masons really top the list when it comes to the extent of their rather long and tedious initiations.

It seems to me that the "the knowledge" in Masonry is really not "knowledge" at all as we would commonly understand the term; their rituals are simply a process of religious hypnotisation and indoctrination which produces a mind controlled slave who conforms to "group mentality." An examination of what "Masonic Knowledge" is does not conform to epistemological contraints. Epistemology is a branch of philosophy which essentially asks the question "What is objective and subjective knowledge?" For example we all "know" objectively that gravity tends to pull objects down towards the earth, and we all know subjectively that "love" is good, as we all like to to love and be loved. Masonic knowledge in contrast just seems to be mumbo jumbo and a process of indoctrination.

The Masons are very much like the Scientology cultists in the sense that they seem to believe that they have some form of special "knowledge," which when examined by academia just seems to be non-knowledge. Masonry generally tends to produce men who are indentifiable by their arrogance; and in the inner mind of the cultist, they can be totally convinced that they are priestly knights of an ancient order on a sacred mission.

I have a copy of Martin Short's "Inside the Brotherhood" which runs to 700+ pages. I have not been able to find a pirate copy in a web edition, but there is probably one somewhere on the Internet. What is valuable about this work is that it is devoid of the usual bizzarre conspiracy theories regarding Masonry which are of the David Icke / Henry Makow type hysteria; it essentially concentrates on financial corruption, their control of the financial districts of the City of London and their incestuous economic activities, economic corruption, etc.

With most other organised crime syndicates, they generally exist as a "subculture," and have relationships with banking, government, the police and the judiciary through bribery and fear; not so with the Masons, since in the UK, they have their own financial district (the Square mile) with its own laws, their own banks and financial institutions, and they have completely infltrated the police and the judiciary. There are about 40 military lodges exclusively for members of the armed services (see www.militarymasons.co.uk... ) in the UK and their current UK cult leader, the Duke of Kent holds the highest rank in the British military, apart from his cousin of course, who is the current head of state and allegedly Jesus' representative on earth to all Anglicans

Unfortunately the Masons are not a progressive or radical influence on society; they tend to have conservative, aristocratic, regressive, Capitalist values and they most certainly exist primarily for their own economic interests. In addition to being a Capitalist gang, the Masons are also a Messianic religious cult, and in my judgement probably one of the most powerful and malevolent cults, though certainly not the "most" malevolent, since their Islamic enemies are, in my judgement, a much more serious threat, and there are of course cults such as the Korean Moon cult whose combination of apocalyptic prophecies, multi-billion dollar arms' manufacturing, and their fleet of ex Russian military submarines places their cult leader near the top of the list of dangerous religious schizophrenics with genocidal intentions.



Part of the danger of having a society full of victims of religious hypnosis and indoctrination is that it produces a person who very often genuinely believes that they are "good," "moral" and "virtuous," even when they are engaged in the most malevolent activites, and further they model themselves around models of human perfection that are simply models of religious schizophrenia such as Jesus, Mohammad and the sadistic and genocidal tribal deity of the Bible, and as can be understood by the responses from Masonic cultists on this thread they seem to consider their cults to be beyond criticism.

Another common symptom of cult mind control is what the Scientologists call "Fair Game" policy, and though the Masons may or may not use this term, their responses on this thread indicate that they apply this policy. The "Fair Game" policy in Scientology is a policy that Scientologists should never attempt to "defend" against criticisms of their cullt, but rather only to attack the critics. I have had numerous first hand experiences of this myself and in this respect the Masonic cultists seem to be rather similar to the Scientologists.

You will probably not be able to convince many Masons of the malevolence of their cult, and this is probably the same situation for many who are victims and /or perpetrators of cult mind control, however I notice, for example, that this thread is showing up on Google front pages for a variety of related searches on Masonry, the Shriners, the Jesters, etc., and thus I tend to always take the view that the effect of such Internet debating has much wider implications than just chatting with a few cult members.

Personally I am guilty of many of the allegedly "Satanic" activities which the Christians unjustly accuse the Masons of, and I have been immersed in the British Neopagan subculture for many years. I could not care less about "god's will;" it is my will which is paramount and I have long sought to change the course of history and to radicalise collective human consciousness, and the Internet is the best place to do that. My "will" however is entirely benevolent and selfless; I have long ago ceased to exist as a person concerned with my own personal self interests; I am much more concerned about the salvation of humankind; however a "Saviour" in Nietzschean terms is a person who seeks to save others "from" the religious fanatics, and who seeks to immunise others to religious hypnosis and indoctrination; thus the "Invisible College" of the 21st century is a rather varied collection of assorted atheists, humanists, Deists, Neopagans, Satanists, Luciferians, Feminists, Neomarxists, Anarchists and so forth. Unfortunately, for those who have spent much of their adult lives immersed in a religious cult environment, they are mostly simply "beyond salvation" and in Nietzchean terms are the "dammed" who seek to spread their memetic virus to others.

Lux

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

Masons operate much like any other Capitalist gang. Almost all the major Capitalist gangs such as the Yakuza, the Triads and the Russian and Italian mafia have "religious" type initiation rituals, tests and obedience oaths, but the Masons really top the list when it comes to the extent of their rather long and tedious initiations.

I agreed with you freemasonry is a capitalist gang comprised of religious cultists, they take oaths by placing their hands on bible, Koran etc. and the sinister teachings of bible is what they follow, there are all sorts of conspiracy theories that they are satanist and their rituals have some dark occult spiritual meanings, these type of theories really takes away the limelight from their real malicious agendas. I don't believe in such theories myself, and I agree with you the rituals and symbolism is all part of hypnotism and mind control to infuse in them those genocidal and malevolent tendencies, otherwise there is no way a human being can commit such monstrous acts of mass murders. And they use it on general populations also through symbolism in movies and music videos.

Using rituals and symbols and other allegorical ways to teach good morals and ethics is very odd, as they can be taught in a much better way without using them. And wearing apron, gloves, uniforms is the idea taken straight from various cults. There is no need for any of it to impart good moral values, expect if they want to make a mind control slave.

I also stumbled upon ATS threads on Google during searches, So It is good to share truth here on ATS, I will definitely read "Inside the Brotherhood", I was already looking for some enlightening book about the real truth behind freemasonry. So thanks to you. If you know about some more useful resources about freemasonry, you can share it with me. I have also stopped thinking about my own self interests and materialistic tendencies, because I am also absolutely concerned about salvation and liberation of humanity from the clutches of evil, that's why I am here.

reply to post by Lucifer777

---

Not all Masonic charities provide the chairman with a six figure income. I know some charities don't pay anything to their committee members.

We shouldn't criticize the charity, but rather the few individuals who abused their office. What is your end state? To end all charities? Or just those who are connected to the Freemasons or a religion?

Sandy Frost may say a lot but does she have physical evidence of it?

You can start a "Masonic Lodge", but unless you have gone through the proper channels you will not be recognized nor are the degrees real, these would be your fake degrees.

You keep repeating the same thing about how we're a cult and blah blah blah. There is a difference between reading a book and actually going through the degrees.

It's not doublespeak. It's a straight forward question. What is wrong with it? Cannot you not speak for yourself on this matter?

Here's the problem I have with you, it's not that your an atheist, but rather your attitude and blatant hatred. You have no morals.

reply to post by vinay86

---

Not all the colonists were Masons. What laws were passed by Masons to keep India poverty stricken?

Not all genocides were committed by Masons.

Please do name these Masons. What Lodges did they belong to? When did they join?

Freemasonry is peaceful, it engages in no wars. If people followed all the tenets and virtues taught in Freemasonry there wouldn't be wars.

reply to post by vinay86

---

what religion were the men you claim committed these atrocities? What color eyes did they have? what street did they live on? You claim they were masons, of course that is highly unlikely and improbable that all of them were masons. I am sure we can connect their alliances in more diabolical manners. Perhaps they all were born outside of a hospital, or they all were left handed. Attempting to vilify a worldwide organization that is at the very least 200+ years old using your logic is laughable at best.

I looked back at some of your comments, it would seem that you need a scapegoat to blame things on and freemasonry seems to fit that nicely. At least you did find the correct thread to spread baseless accusations. Proof no longer required for condemnation, only a few loose rumors will be fine. hang 'em high boys.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Lucifer777

---

Not all Masonic charities provide the chairman with a six figure income. I know some charities don't pay anything to their committee members.

We shouldn't criticize the charity, but rather the few individuals who abused their office. What is your end state? To end all charities? Or just those who are connected to the Freemasons or a religion?

There would simply be no need for charities in a socialist world. The multi-billion dollar "religion" business, including the Capitalist Jesus business, is of course just a business of charlatans, fake healers etc., who prey on the sick and the vulnerable. In Europe we are in a transitionary stage of economic evolution where there is a synthesis of Capitalism and Socialism, but I simply cannot forsee any toleration of the professional hypnotists of the Jesus business in future socialist states, nor even the necessity for the Capitalist institution of the charity business.

Sandy Frost may say a lot but does she have physical evidence of it?

This is just further evidence of the "denialism" of the cult mindset, despite the evidence presented on this thread.

In a courtroom there is essentially "physical evidence" and "testimonial evidence;" if by "physical evidence" such as semen stained sheets at Jester parties, the evidence is not material evidence but testimonial evidence; if you wish to present evidence that such witnesses to these events are unreliable, please do so. Since the case involving Jester sex parties and the availability of prostitutes has led to successful prosecutions, it must be assumed that there was sufficient evidence to convict ( see sandyfrost.newsvine.com... ).

The evidence presented by Sandy is a variety of evidence including the testimonials of Jester and Shriner Masons themselves and the evidence of FBI investigations. The evidence presented on her website is quite extensive, but it does include various forms of material and testimonial evidence including:

Turns out that the Jesters weren’t so secret after former Nevada Assemblyman Joe E. Dini Jr.:

"DECLARED, That the members of the Assembly of the State of Nevada hereby express a hearty welcome to the Royal Order of Jesters, Reno Court 33 and Las Vegas Court 181, and the Shrine of North America in their endeavors to provide fun and fellowship for its members and to bring necessary medical treatment to children across the United States. Declared by the Assembly March 9, 2001."

So, some attorney convinced the IRS to grant the Jesters tax exempt status to "spread the gospel of merriment and mirth."

This translates to throwing weekend parties called "The Book of the Play."

Tax returns show the Jesters spent $600,000 on one.

That's over $12,000 a minute.

sandyfrost.newsvine.com...

For example a tax return is material evidence. Since you are obviously literate enough to read her rather extensive site and have been able to read other extracts from her site which have been presented on this thread, to simply suggest that there is "no" material evidence for her claims, should not be taken as a statement of ignorance on your part, but rather of wilfil denialism and of "bearing false witness;" in other words premediated deception. This is of course is entirely symptomatic of cult mind control, where no amount of material or testimonial evidence will be accepted as reliable by the cultist. This thread is of course "not" an intelligent debate, and to revert to "lying" is of course , often a last cry of the despairing in debate

"Like computer viruses, successful mind viruses will tend to be hard for their victims to detect. If you are the victim of one, the chances are that you won't know it, and may even vigorously deny it." Richard Dawkins.

You can start a "Masonic Lodge", but unless you have gone through the proper channels you will not be recognized nor are the degrees real, these would be your fake degrees.

This statement is no different to a statement made by a proponent of one name brand in the religion business against the proponents of competing name brands, that they have an inferior religious product. "All" degrees issued by any Masonic lodge, regular or irregular, are not accredited degrees, and thus by definition are "fake" degrees, just as the salvation sold by a Catholic priest is just as fake as the salvation sold by a competing evangelical fake miracle worker.
Under the ridiculous laws of "religious freedom," any religious charlatan can start a Masonic lodge or a Christian salvation business and the view that only some religions offer "real" salvation or "real" degrees, while others offer "fake" salvation or "fake" degrees is entirely based on the subjective ramblings of metaphysicians.

You keep repeating the same thing about how we're a cult and blah blah blah.

The "cult" of Rome, the "cult" of Jesus, the "cult" of Isis, the "cult" of Freemasonry, for example; the term "cult" is a noun which is meaningful (cultus: to worship; a system of religious beliefs and rituals; "devoted to the cultus of the Blessed Virgin") in the English language and I use the term as a descriptive term, not as a derogatory term. Cult insiders of course have their own private definitions of language which are usually a form of doublespeak; thus members of "cults" often refer to their rituals as a form of "religion" and refer to the rituals of their opponents as cult rituals; this is simply a private definition of terms; the Masonic denial of their religious rituals as cult rituals or religious rituals is merely further evidence of cult insider language; perhaps it will not be long before Masons start to argue that their rituals are not rituals and that their Jester and Shriner prostitutes are "sacred priestesses."

There is a difference between reading a book and actually going through the degrees. It's not doublespeak. It's a straight forward question. What is wrong with it? Cannot you not speak for yourself on this matter?

An academic in the field of "Religious Studies" should be able to read through the entire cacophony of Masonic rituals, Christan rituals, Hindu rituals, etc., without succumbing to religious hypnosis and indoctrination; it is not disputed that a cultist who goes through such rituals will have a different experience, since they tend to become the victims of religious hypnosis and indoctrination.

Certainly the pathworking and internalisation of the 33 Kabbalist degrees is quite different to merely reading about them, however I fail to find such associations in the various Masonic degrees which I have read through, which seem to me to be intended to obfuscate ("Render obscure, unclear, or unintelligible, Bewilder") the Kabbalistic degrees; this is quite the opposite of Crowley's method which was rather to make the 33 degrees quite easy and simple to understand and to make this knowledge publicly available.

Masonry in my judgement is thus just a religion franchise for the buying and selling of fake degrees and which tends to produce a rather pompous and arrogant individual from whom the Kabbalistic knowledge appears to be entirely hidden. The real inheritors of the Kabbalistic tradition and knowledge are, in my judgement, to be found in the modern Neopagan movement, not in the Masonic movement.

Here's the problem I have with you, it's not that your an atheist, but rather your attitude and blatant hatred. You have no morals.

Moral Philosophy.

Morality is a subjective discernment of good and evil; I often find the philosophical atheists to be the most moral people; however their morality is not derived from any fake trasncendental sources; for example an atheist might argue that it is "immoral" to execute people for working on the Sabbath whereas a Biblical fanatic might defend this as being "moral," based on the ramblings of some primitive and barbaric religious fanatic.

Once you accept the view that the Biblical deity of the "Sacred Volume of the Law" is an absolute definition of "goodness" then you accept a definition of goodness which is derived from the anthropomorphc (a projection of human consciousness) definition of what Richard Dawkins describes as "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully (Dawkins: "The God Delusion")."

Thus it is quite natural that if you define the source of all love and goodness in such a hateful and savage way, that you will consider your philosophical enemies to be "hateful" and "immoral;" however for those of us who define morality purely by deriving our moral philosophy from the "highest authority" of human reason and intuition, you are simply babbling in "doublespeak." Personally I consider myself to be an extremely "moral" person and an evangelical Thelemite, which I predict will be the moral philosophy of the future Aeon; however Thelemic or humanist moral philosophy will always be considered immoral by the proponents of the lie of transcendental morality.

reply to post by vinay86

---

Not all the colonists were Masons. What laws were passed by Masons to keep India poverty stricken?

Not all genocides were committed by Masons.

Please do name these Masons. What Lodges did they belong to? When did they join?

Freemasonry is peaceful, it engages in no wars. If people followed all the tenets and virtues taught in Freemasonry there wouldn't be wars.

Again this is just indicative of the "denialism" which is typical of a mind controlled cultist who cannot accept any criticisms of his fellow cultists. As previously stated, there are around 40 Masonic lodges in the UK which are exclusively for current and former members of the armed services, and your current international cult leader, the aristocratic monarchist, the Duke of Kent holds the highest rank in the British army.

Claiming that "Freemasonry is peaceful, it engages in no wars" is really just a semantic depersonalisation; in reality "Freemasonry" does not exist and is purely a metaphorical term; only "Freemasons" exist in reality; thus you are implying that "Freemasons are peaceful; they engage in no wars;" which is of course a totally deceiptful claim. Generally resorting to bare faced "lying" is generally another cry of the despairing in debate.

If people followed all the tenets and virtues taught in Freemasonry there wouldn't be wars.

Again a totally ridiculous statement of cult doublespeak.

Lux

The idea, therefore, that religious faith is somehow a sacred human convention—distinguished, as it is, both by the extravagance of its claims and by the paucity of its evidence—is really too great a monstrosity to be appreciated in all its glory. Religious faith represents so uncompromising a misuse of the power of our minds that it forms a kind of perverse, cultural singularity—a vanishing point beyond which rational discourse proves impossible."
— Sam Harris (The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason)

Fundamentalist Christianity: a mind control CULT?
  Posted 5 days ago with 36 member flags

A masons ring of the 32nd degree
  Posted 12 days ago with 11 member flags

Monarch programming - evidence or coincidence?
  Posted 4 days ago with 11 member flags

The Court System and Freemasonry.
  Posted 6 days ago with 10 member flags

Exposing Freemasons & 33 - Geometry,Astrology, or Devil Worship?
  Posted 7 days ago with 7 member flags

FACT: Buzz Aldrin claimed moon as a Scottish Rite \'Territory\'
  Posted 15 days ago with 6 member flags

I was a Mason and here\'s what I learned...
  Posted 3 days ago with 6 member flags

Did you know that Disney has a secret VIP club, suggestively named "Club 33"??
  Posted 13 days ago with 5 member flags

Newest topics, updated in real-time:

Newest topics getting flags, in real-time:

Newest topics getting replies, in real-time: