On Masonic Charity. The world's largest non religious charity scam. On the Shriners and Jesters.

Originally posted by network dude

Originally posted by Lucifer777
By the term "dog" I was not referring to an animal or using the term merely as an arbitrary, derogatory insult. A "dog" is a BDSM slang for a collared human pet.



I was referring to the archetypal Masonic recruit who is willing to be humiliated, trained, owned, made submissive, obedient, degraded, dressed up in humilating costumes and who has a psychological need to find a "Master," and to become his master's psychophant.

just out of curiosity, when you are done leading your boyfriend around by a chain, does he leave with a profound sense of trust and knowledge that you genuinely care about him, or does he just get chain burns and a sore ass?

Network Dude, when you post nonsense like this it just provides more argumental evidence about the masons rampant ego's and arrogance. Personally speaking I would much rather see yourself, and the other masons on here, provide good evidence to prove Lucifer wrong than to just childishly insult him. The freemasons, to me, come across as a bit weird but hey, when has being a bit weird ever been a crime? In this day and age its a positive plus point!!!
In my view all this information about masons branding each other and electrocuting one another needs a serious answer to refute the claims. At the moment I'm undecided... While the idea of freemasons plotting against us behind the scenes to enslave us and bring about a new world order seems over the top and ridiculous, the points in the catalogues mentioned so irritatingly by Lucifer takes the debate in the other direction and makes the cult look silly... I suspect, like most things, the truth lies somewhere in the middle but I would really love to hear more to clarify the position from yourself and masons such as Augustus and Ksigmason...

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
Personally speaking I would much rather see yourself, and the other masons on here, provide good evidence to prove Lucifer wrong than to just childishly insult him.

The problem is that what little time I've wasted reading Lu's posts, it seems like all he's got are overarching, broad generalizations that simply aren't true to begin with. All attempts to refute his claims, or request that he narrow things down to be more specific, have either been ignored or deflected by him.

At this point, I just ignore his posts altogether, because I honestly don't think they're bringing anything of value to the board.

In my view all this information about masons branding each other and electrocuting one another needs a serious answer to refute the claims.

Again, I might have missed it, because I'm really not interested in wasting my time on the guy, but have there actually been any real accusations of branding and electrocuting by Masons? Or just out of context pages from a fraternal supply company catalog from 80+ years ago? As far as I've seen, there's nothing to answer...

reply to post by CholmondleyWarner


I don't expect you to understand that post either. It has to do with the 1st degree ritual. In masonry the initiate is taught trust. From an outside perspective, without thinking at all and using knee jerk reaction, one might think it's degrading, but it's very far from it. At the end of the initiation, the brother understands that the men whom he met that night will be his friends and will be there to help him in any way they can. And I assure you, it has nothing to do with twisted BDSM, or any hazing rituals. All of the garbage that has been posted about hazing tools are for college fraternities I would assume. None of them show up in craft masonry at all.

Lucifer keeps trying to throw his own sexual fantasies into a masonic discussion in which he has no knowledge of. If he denied any of the comments I made, then they might be in poor taste, but since he quite happily agrees with them, I think turnabout is fair play. besides, I never claimed to be grown up or sophisticated. In fact, It was implied that I wasn't smart enough to converse on his level, so nothing I say will matter anyway. I think even you had that statement. So just ignore the kid cracking jokes in the corner.

Originally posted by network dude
In fact, It was implied that I wasn't smart enough to converse on his level, so nothing I say will matter anyway.

Well, you did lose to the tic-tac-toe playing chicken.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


He's just so damn fast! I will get him in the rematch.
I have a plan. I am gonna have a KFC hat on to distract him.

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
While the idea of freemasons plotting against us behind the scenes to enslave us and bring about a new world order seems over the top and ridiculous,

The "New World Order" referred to by George Bush Sr., is essentially the "International DIctatorship of Capitalism" and we are already living in it, and many Masons are certainly part of the Capitalist establishment, at least in the UK, where they are certainly "the" Capitalist Mafia.

the points in the catalogues mentioned so irritatingly by Lucifer takes the debate in the other direction and makes the cult look silly...

Silly?



Impersonating His Satanic Majesty and prodding canditates with and electric baton is a holy and ancient rite which dates back to ancient Egypt; Devil's Tridents with portable electric batteries have just never been discovered in Egypt because it was such a secretive and holy rite.



Similarly with the sacred Egyptian rite of the Hula Hula Bull Dance; this is not silly; it is a totally sacred Egyptian rite, as is the playing of the Egyptian sacred hymn, "How Dry Am I (i.e., I am not drunk enough)" on the bells attached to the candidates' testicles. The sacred Human Shimmy Bell outfits have not been discovered by Egyptian archeologists because this holiest of sacred rites was preserved in secrecy by the ancient Pharoahs on penalty of death..

What blasphemy and heresy is afoot on this thread to suggest that these sacred and holy Masonic rites are silly?



Similarly with other Masonic rites alleged on this thread, such as the covering of the testicals with whipped cream and strawberries, applying electric shocks to the genitalia, fake branding, the caging of candidates, simulated "golden showers (spraying the candidates with water from an attached rubber pensis)" and knocking the candidate unconscious.

The secrecy of these sacred and Holy rites are protected by blood curdling oaths, and the "good men and true" of Masonry cannot speak of them; however I have raised such matters here simply to show what sacred and holy priests and preservers of the ancient mysteries they are and just how seriously they take their cult religion.



Holy, Holy.

Lucifer
Blasphemy, Heresy, War, Revolution, etc.


______________________

Originally posted by JoshNorton
The problem is that what little time I've wasted reading Lu's posts, it seems like all he's got are overarching, broad generalizations that simply aren't true to begin with. All attempts to refute his claims, or request that he narrow things down to be more specific, have either been ignored or deflected by him.

This is simply untrue; in the ten pages of this thread there have been "no" attempts to refute the allegations presented here; all that I have witnessed is Masonic temper tantrums, denialism and abuse. Further all the allegations are very specific.

.

Again, I might have missed it, because I'm really not interested in wasting my time on the guy, but have there actually been any real accusations of branding and electrocuting by Masons? Or just out of context pages from a fraternal supply company catalog from 80+ years ago? As far as I've seen, there's nothing to answer...

Yes you obviously missed it. The fraternal supply catalogue merely establishes that such behaviour has been going on since the 1930's, but the allegations are contemporary.

For example:

Man sues Shriners over initiation injuries Trial exposes secret ritual in which electric shock is used on initiates.
December 10, 1991|By Knight-RidderLEXINGTON, Ky. -- The veil of secrecy that shrouds the initiation rites of Shriners has been lifted as the result of a Lexington man's lawsuit against Oleika Shrine Temple.

articles.baltimoresun.com...

The opening of the trial was shown live yesterday by local cable television, enabling people to sit home and learn all about what Shriners call their "hot sands session."

Michael G. Vaughan, 44, a brick mason and would-be Shriner, told jurors of being blindfolded and having a jolt of electricity applied to his bare buttocks as part of the initiation rites in June 1989 at the temple. He also told of having to walk on an electrified mat that was supposed to simulate the hot sands of the Sahara, of being knocked unconscious and suffering other injuries during the initiation.


Vaughan claims he was was humiliated and embarrassed by the ordeal. The humiliation, he said, causes him to suffer anxiety, a sleep disorder and nightmares.

He is seeking an unspecified amount for medical bills, lost income and punitive damages.

Attorneys for the shrine and six of its members say that Vaughn was not injured and that he filed the suit out of greed.

The defense attorneys said they would bring in witnesses who say the ritual was not painful, but fun.

By the time a jury was seated yesterday there was time for but one witness to take the stand -- Vaughan.

On direct examination by his own attorney, John Hamilton, Vaughan described three electrical shocks he received during the induction ceremony. The first -- the one to his buttocks -- was the most painful, he said. Vaughan said he was led blindfolded into a room where the blindfold was lifted long enough to let him see a red hot branding iron bearing a shrine emblem.

Vaughan was then told to lay on a table and pull down his boxer shorts. That's when he was given an jolt with a stick wired to a 12-volt motorcycle battery. He was not branded with the hot iron.

He said the pain was so great it lifted him off the table.

"It lifts you off the table a foot or two," he told the jury.

He also told of being shocked while sitting on a metal bench and while standing on the electrified mat.

"At any time, did you feel like you could walk away and quit and still be accepted for membership?" Hamilton asked.

"No, you were intimidated to the point to where it never entered your mind that you could get out of this place. It was a very fearful situation," Vaughan replied.

The testimonial above speaks of the initiate sitting on an electrified metal bench in 1991; however the electric bench was sold in the Demoulin catalogue in 1930.



The testimonial above speaks of the initiate being electrocuted with a metal stick wired to a battery, in 1991; however this item was sold in the Demoulin catalogue in 1930.



The testimonial above speaks of the initiate being being shown a red hot branding iron being heated in 1991; however this item was sold in the Demoulin catalogue in 1930.



The testimonial above speaks of the initiate having to walk on an electrified mat in 1991; however this item was sold in the Demoulin catalogue in 1930.







There are numerous other images of devices used in these sacred and holy rituals designed to terrify, electrocute and humiliate the victim on: www.phoenixmasonry.org...



All these sacred and Holy Rites have of course been passed down through the ages, since the age of the Pharaohs; thus establishing the ancient legacy of the Holy priesthood of theTemplar Warrior Knights.

Holy, Holy.

Lux

Originally posted by network dude

And I assure you, it has nothing to do with twisted BDSM, or any hazing rituals. All of the garbage that has been posted about hazing tools are for college fraternities I would assume. None of them show up in craft masonry at all.

Again this is just more of the same "argumentum ad ignorantiam" which litters this thread. The "appeal to ignorance," does not refute allegations of acts which you are unaware of. An example of such an argument would be "I have never seen a stripper or had sex with a prostitute at a Masonic function; therefore no strippers or prostitutes attend Masonic functions."

In Masonry there are cults within cults within cults, and there are so many side degrees that I doubt that anyone apart from his Satanic Majesty Himself and the Masonic "elect" could possibly gain them all.

Further Masons are anyway bound by their sacred oaths to His Imperial Majesty not to speak of such matters.

Lux

reply to post by Lucifer777


well sally, you seem to have fallen back into that trap of posting much more information than your audience can stay awake for. this is why your pupils make those jokes about you. Long winded and short on substance. but again, I am but an uneducated person who does not belong in the arena with such an esteemed linguist. As I once heard, if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t. You are the true teacher in that regard.

Oh, and in every masonic lodge in every city, town, and province, the degrees are taught in the same manner that they have been for hundreds of years. They use the same methods of teaching and virtually the same wording with a few tiny exceptions. So I can say for sure, with no hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind, that your props have not ever been used in the three degrees of craft masonry anywhere in the world. If you can prove otherwise, please do so. If not, perhaps you should go back to your boys in the back room. They may not tire of your incredibly boring drivel as quickly as the ATS readers.

So Lucifer, basically what you're saying is that the masons make a good man better by playing childish practical jokes on him and, to a degree (no pun intended) humiliating and torturing him..? The branding iron test I can kind of understand as it could be deemed a testing of trust. But why oh why would any man even consider having bells attached to his crown jewels? What does that prove?
And another question, just what do you hope to achieve by ridiculing the masons in this way? Seeing that your father was a "brother" just what did he do to you that has caused you to be so bitter against him (you call him the devil) and the cult which he apparently held dear to his heart?

Originally posted by Lucifer777
...there are so many side degrees that I doubt that anyone apart from his Satanic Majesty Himself and the Masonic "elect" could possibly gain them all.

If I recall correctly MasonicLight has most/all of the 'side' degrees but I do not recall him as coming across as Majestically Satanic.

Further Masons are anyway bound by their sacred oaths to His Imperial Majesty not to speak of such matters.

Stop. Now you are just being silly. I am sure you father told you that the secrets are only the modes of recognition and words accompanying them as well as some portions of the degrees themselves. These are of course readily available in various media.

Originally posted by network dude
Oh, and in every masonic lodge in every city, town, and province, the degrees are taught in the same manner that they have been for hundreds of years. They use the same methods of teaching and virtually the same wording with a few tiny exceptions. So I can say for sure, with no hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind, that your props have not ever been used in the three degrees of craft masonry anywhere in the world. If you can prove otherwise, please do so. If not, perhaps you should go back to your boys in the back room.

This is essentially a "Straw Man" argument since it has not been suggested in this thread that such hazing rituals are used in the first three Masonic degrees; but rather the testimonials of American Masons presented in articles here establish that they are used in "side degrees;" and the Jesters and the Shriners "are" the definition of side degrees; the latter of which is an organisation which almost a third of all American Masons belong to.

They may not tire of your incredibly boring drivel as quickly as the ATS readers.

More abuse and an appeal to a collective "we" whom you do not represent. All the attention you Masons have given to this thread and my lengthy responses filled with search engine keywords and images with embedded keywords seem to have pushed this threads to the front page of Google for many searches on subject; so you do not even know "who" is reading this thread, and you statement is merely a statement of arrogance. I am also entirely aware that most Americans are barely literate enough to read a cornflakes packet, but I am unfortunately unable to write for such persons.

Lux

__________

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
So Lucifer, basically what you're saying is that the masons make a good man better by playing childish practical jokes on him and, to a degree (no pun intended) humiliating and torturing him..?

I do not believe that Masonry takes good men and makes them better; it takes Capitalist men who wish to rise higher up the Capitalist food chain; it is essentially a Capitalist gang, and many Capitalist gangs have hazing rituals and obedience oaths.

The branding iron test I can kind of understand as it could be deemed a testing of trust. But why oh why would any man even consider having bells attached to his crown jewels? What does that prove?

You should direct such questions to the Masons.

And another question, just what do you hope to achieve by ridiculing the masons in this way? Seeing that your father was a "brother" just what did he do to you that has caused you to be so bitter against him (you call him the devil) and the cult which he apparently held dear to his heart?

I am on good terms with my father and I have no complaints about him personally; even fathers who are ideologically evil tend to love their sons; I am quite sure that the overt Masonic cult leader the Fieldmarshall, the Duke of Kent also loves his children, but he probably is less concerned about the children of Iraq, a nation which his armies and allies have littered with the lasting gift of around 2000 tons of depleted Uranium; nor with the effects which the dictatorship of Capitalism have on the children of humankind.




With regards to "my father the Devil" it is a term of endearment; anyway my father is a lifelong anti-Communist and his definition of his Capitalist God is most Communist's definition of the Devil. He is not a Devil worshipper; he is a Godist, which is the same thing as far as I am concerned. He is anyway retired and is no longer actively involved in Freemasonry, though he does recite the mantra "Once a Freemason, always a Freemason. "Always" is a very long time to be a companion of His Satanic Majesty," but it is a choice made by many of the men of Scotland.

Lux

Originally posted by Lucifer777
The allegations made by critics of the Freemasons which have been presented in articles on this thread have "not" in any way been proven wrong.

Is this not also "argumentum ad ignorantiam"? You like to point out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", but your "proposition has not been disproven, then it cannot be considered false and must therefore be considered true" is also an "appeal to ignorance". Some truths can not be proven, and some fallacies may never be disproved with absolute certainty.

en.wikipedia.org...

All statements are true in some sense, false in some sense, meaningless in some sense, true and false in some sense, true and meaningless in some sense, false and meaningless in some sense, and true and false and meaningless in some sense.

Principia Discordia
www.principiadiscordia.com...

Originally posted by CholmondleyWarner
So Lucifer, basically what you're saying is that the masons make a good man better by playing childish practical jokes on him and, to a degree (no pun intended) humiliating and torturing him..? The branding iron test I can kind of understand as it could be deemed a testing of trust. But why oh why would any man even consider having bells attached to his crown jewels? What does that prove?

In the 19th and early 20th century, there were tons of active fraternal orders around: Elks, Eagles, Woodmen, etc., etc. All had their own distinctive initiation ceremonies, some of which were rather juvenile.

I suppose fake table saws and electric bridges may have been seen as funny in some of those groups, but they of course have nothing to do with Masonic initiation.

And another question, just what do you hope to achieve by ridiculing the masons in this way? Seeing that your father was a "brother" just what did he do to you that has caused you to be so bitter against him (you call him the devil) and the cult which he apparently held dear to his heart?

I think Freud would have asked the same thing!

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

If I recall correctly MasonicLight has most/all of the 'side' degrees but I do not recall him as coming across as Majestically Satanic.

Sheesh. I need to try harder!

Originally posted by Lucifer777
Well he must be an extremely busy person to run around all those degrees...

I can not answer for him but if I recall many of the appendant bodies meet monthly or only occasionally and participation is always optional.

...and he must be quite wealthy to afford all the fees...

He would again be the correct person to ask but I can not imagine it being very expensive, my estimate would be around $500.

...he must be one his imperial Majesty's most gullible customers.

Maybe if the Duke were actually selling American Masons something.

If only all Masons were like this, perhaps people would be selling their McDonald's franchises and purchasing Masonic franchise businesses.

If you say so.

I wonder how brother Masonic Light even has the time to appear on the Intenet with all the canings, beatings, electrocutions and testicials he has to apply whipped cream and strawberries to, and what with all the stippers and prostitutes he has to give attention to. It is a tough job, but I suppose someone has to do it.

Maybe he has balls of steel?

As far as Masonic Light being "Majestically Satanic," it is not a compliment I would extend to any of the Masons here; I would expect at least the ability to engage in intelligent debate from someone who was "Majestically Satanic," and the behaviour of the Freemasons on this forum falls far short of that. None are worthy.

What is there to debate? Some Jesters acted very poorly and were subsequently expelled/prosecuted for their transgressions. And if 'majestically satanic' translates to tedious and boring I would settle for the non-satanic version.

edit on 10-3-2011 by Lucifer777 because: Addition to text; and text was not diabolical enough.

edit on 10-3-2011 by Lucifer777 because: Addition to text; and text was not diabolical enough.

I found nothing remotely diabolical, please try harder.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

As far as Masonic Light being "Majestically Satanic," it is not a compliment I would extend to any of the Masons here; I would expect at least the ability to engage in intelligent debate from someone who was "Majestically Satanic," and the behaviour of the Freemasons on this forum falls far short of that. None are worthy.

What is there to debate? Some Jesters acted very poorly and were subsequently expelled/prosecuted for their transgressions. And if 'majestically satanic' translates to tedious and boring I would settle for the non-satanic version.

This is a mistatement of the criticisms presented against American Masonry, which has been repeated and re-repeated by Masons throughout this thread; the articles on this thread suggest that corruption is institutional and endemic in the American Masonic institutions, the Shriners and Jesters; and further that the rather thuggish and childish gang hazing rituals described here, including various forms of torture to emphasise secrecy oaths, are in common useage throughout these two cults. It is thus unsurprising that American Masons are in a state of cult denialism over such allegations, since their behaviour is protected by secrecy oaths which have been taken whilst being subjected to forms of torture. Thus rather than simply admitting to such allegations, what we fnd here in the many responses from Masons on this thread is simply deception, cult denialism, abuse, contradiction, numerous forms of argument fallacies including what seems to be their favorite, "the argument from ignorance," temper tantrums etc. Based upon the behaviour of Masonic cultists on this thread, I consider there to be no possibility whatsoever of intelligent discussion; any more than I would expect this from a gang of football hooligans. Since this is a public debate, it has been my pleasure to give the Freemasons the opportunity to portray themselves in such a manner; although I will be off the Internet for a few days, any further assistance I can be with this matter, upon my return, I am only too happy to assist.

His Imperial Satanic Majesty.
Lucifer.
Advocatus diaboli

Originally posted by Lucifer777
This is a mistatement of the criticisms presented against American Masonry, which has been repeated and re-repeated by Masons throughout this thread; the articles on this thread suggest that corruption is institutional and endemic in the American Masonic institutions, the Shriners and Jesters; and further that the rather thuggish and childish gang hazing rituals described here, including various forms of torture to emphasise secrecy oaths, are in common useage throughout these two cults. It is thus unsurprising that American Masons are in a state of cult denialism over such allegations, since their behaviour is protected by secrecy oaths which have been taken whilst being subjected to forms of torture.

I am not going to argue if they are widespread or not since I am not a member of either group and can not offer any insight other then the few articles you linked. I can personally state that I would not particiapte in any such antics as they do not fit my definition of what Masonry whould be. I am happy with my Blue Lodge activities and have encountered nothing that I would consider juvenille, childish, thuggish or matching any of the hazing rituals you posted.

Thus rather than simply admitting to such allegations, what we fnd here in the many responses from Masons on this thread is simply deception, cult denialism, abuse, contradiction, numerous forms of argument fallacies...

Since these allegations have appeared on this forum previously (I think it may have been Sandy Frost herself) they are nothing new to me. They obviously happened and I am fairly certain I did not deny them. On the contrary, I think I made my point that I find them unacceptable and the perpetrators should be punished.

Since this is a public debate, it has been my pleasure to give the Freemasons the opportunity to portray themselves in such a manner;

It has also given everyone the opportunity to enjoy your condescending tone and demeanor.

Originally posted by Lucifer777
The fact that you did not personally witness the assassination of Kennedy is not sufficient reason to believe that he was not assassinated.

Likewise, just because Kennedy was assassinated almost 50 years ago does not mean that US Presidents are still regularly shot at in Dallas in 2011.

Your "testimonies" are 20 years old. Since that lawsuit, the Shrine has stopped doing the "burning sands" to avoid future legal conflict by similarly litigious candidates.

I have to agree with Josh on his view that he's quite happy to debate the points which Lucifer raises if it wasn't for the fact that he's so condescending and egotistical in his manner. In one of Lucifers posts he bemoans, as I have in a few posts, how the masons appear to gang up and use mob mentality against anyone who dares question freemasonry, and how some are overly arrogant and egotistical... It seems that arrogance and egotism Isn't a trait restricted to just the masons as you Lucifer could do with looking at yourself and take a step back and put your arguments and information across in a more level headed manner.
"To try and convince us non masons how arrogant and egotistical they are by writing posts which show you're more arrogant and egotistical then they are, is not the way to prove your point..."
Also, how are freemasons ever going to take over the world when us mere mortals will hear them coming a mile off by the sound of the cowbells hanging from their plums!?"

Originally posted by JoshNorton

Your "testimonies" are 20 years old. Since that lawsuit, the Shrine has stopped doing the "burning sands" to avoid future legal conflict by similarly litigious candidates.

Actually, the sands are still used in most Shrine Temples. Some individual Shrine Temples have voluntarily laid it aside in favor of the new "Shrine Arch" ceremony, but the majority of Shrines still follow the old second section.

It should be pointed out, for the benefit of non-Masons, that the Shrine is not technically a "Masonic" organization, and does not confer Masonic degrees. It has traditionally limited its membership to only Freemasons; however, this too could change in the near future, as it has been proposed that the Shrine allow non-Masons to become members as well.