On Masonic Charity. The world's largest non religious charity scam. On the Shriners and Jesters.

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posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 05:51 PM
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On the Mystic Shrine and the Royal Order of Jesters; the world's largest non-religious Charity Scam.

Lucifer

It is commonly alleged by conspriacy theorists that the modern Masons are the inheritors of the tradition of the 18th century Illuminati, which was a radical political and philosophical movement, and a product of Enlightenment philsophies. I have responded to this in the thread "In Defence of Adam Weishaupt and the Illuminati" on www.abovetopsecret.com.... In light of the fact that the 18th century Illuminists were rather serious political radicals who promoted a humanist form of morality and intended to produce an enlightened, ratonal and moral creature, the question is begged as to why, if modern Masons are allegedly product of such a movement (I would argue that they are not), why are they running the world's biggest non religious charity scam, which seems to be little more than an excuse for members to get drunk and to have sex with prostitutes?

I thought I would post this in a new thread since "all the wonderful work the Masons do for charity" is often a common defense give by Masons. The media and Internet is full of information on the world's largest "non-religious" charity scam, which despite having an alleged $8 billion in assets, it is alleged that only a tiny fraction of it's income actually goes to charitable works.

Much of the money raised for charity apparently goes on expenses for it's member's events where strippers and prostitutes offering sex for sale have been reported. There is nothing unsurprising or shocking about men paying prostitutes for sex; the real issue is that this is all done in the name of the world's largest non religous "charity" scam. By a "non-religious" charity, such a term excludes organisations, such as the multi billion dollar "Jesus Business" of which the Roman Catholic Church is currently the world's largest religious charity scam.


"The Shrine fraternity, which operates the nation’s largest charity, has been misleading the public for years…In 1984, the circuses reaped an estimated profit of $17.5 million. The charity’s own records show the hospitals received only 1 per cent of that, a total of $182,000."
sandyfrost.newsvine.com... 2/07/2188846-jester-prostitution-updates-stebick-sentenced


Apparently a major source of income for the Shriners hospitals is a "trust fund." Over the years people have donated directly to this fund or left money to it in their wills. The millions of dollars raised every year by the "Shriners" apparently mostly seems to go to support the Shriner events and functons apart from comparatively smal donations to charity.


Over a third of all Masons in the US are Shriners.


Although the Shriners are apparently a separate organisation, they only admit Freemasons of certain degrees. According the Masonic site www.msana.com... there are allegedly over1.4 million members of Masonic Lodges in the US. According to the Shriners site on
www.rajahshrine.org... there are allegedly 525,000 Shriners in the US.

Since Masonic membership is required to join the Shriners, it thus would appear that well over a third of Masons in the United States are also Shriners. Thus the attempts by "some" Masons to distance themselves from the Shriners due to the media exposure of their charity scams and the use of charity money to put on events which seem to be little more than drunken "pay for sexl" events, would appear to be rather questionable.


"The Shrine of North America is a fraternity that grew out of Freemasonry over a century ago. Because of this, the Shrine is dedicated to Masonic principles. The Shrine Fraternity provides Masonic brothers a means to widen the fellowship first enjoyed in the Blue Lodge. .....If you are a Master Mason of a Lodge recognized and in amity with the Conference of Grand Masters of North America, you can petition to become a Noble of the Mystic Shrine."

www.rajahshrine.org...


There is quite a good page of information summarising the scam on Watchy's Freemasonry Watch site on www.freemasonrywatch.org...

I used to debate on Watchy's forum many years ago, however I should point out that Watchy is a member of the world's biggest Capitalist religious cult (The Roman Catholic Church) and that his criticisms of Masonry are just the criticisms of one corrupt religious establishment cultist attacking a competing cult.

The Royal Order of Jester's, Prostitution, Sex Trafficking & Child sex allegations.

The Royal Order of Jesters "is an invitation only branch of the Shriners..... there is a requirement of Shrine and Masonic affiliation."

There are widespread accusations of the use of prostitutes in initiation into the Royal Order of Jesters; some of these "prostitutes" have been discovered to be actual "sex slaves;" i.e., kidnapped women who have been captured for the puposes of sex trafficking.



Judge Tills, who faces prison time now at the age of 75, once prided himself as being one of the toughest sentencing judges in western New York state. I'd be curious how many prostitution cases came before him on the bench, and how he sentenced them. His actions—hauling hookers across state lines, and even into Canada, not once, but at least on six occasions—belies the claim that such practices within the Jesters are not widespread. The FBI has been involved since last year. And this is in addition to the story from last May about Jesters' "fishing trips" to Brazil that involved at least 19 members and hookers as young as 13."

"The first deposition, 61 pages, was provided by Adilson Garcia da Silva on Sunday, April 13, 2008. He describes how he became a fishing guide, his work history, how marijuana was allegedly obtained for the plaintiffs' clients then began describing how girls, from age 13 on up, were lured into prostitution from Brazilian Indian reservations for the fishing trips' clients. The girls, he said, were hired to provide 'programs' that consisted of 'oral sex, strip and dance contests.'

Question: What is the youngest age that you’re aware of a girl being on the boat as a prostitute?

Answer: My brother would pick up a group of girls in Autazes and would take by boat to an American. One was 13, one was 14, and there was one who was even 9 years old.

.........did some of the girls look in the age range of your own daughter who is 12 years old?

Answer: Yes, they were small girls.

specific group of customers?

Answer: They would ask from 13 on up.

This investigation has grown from dryly describing numbers on non profit tax returns to exposing the Shriners' dirty-little-secret sub-group, the Royal Order of Jesters and their prostitution scandals.

It's been kind of shocking to discover that this American icon has been "misleading the public for years" (1), and then come to find out that some of these Shriner/Jesters have committed sex crimes under the guise of being a non profit group.

You know.

Prostitution at tax payer expense.

Tax returns show that Jesters national spent over $570,000 on one weekend bash.

That's about $11,000 an hour.

..............Included in the court documents were statements from five “Jane Does” given to the Brazilian federal police and depositions from two Brazilian fishing guides.

One of the girls said she had after she’d been lured off her Indian reservation by a man named “Richard” who said he’d pay her to clean his fishing boat. Once on the boat, she found that she was supposed to drink whiskey and have sex with North American tourists.

Another said she was left pregnant at 13 after such a trip.

One fishing guide testified that these Jesters preferred to be called "Masons." He also reported seeing them have sex with underage girls and taking pictures that he provided to the Brazilian Federal Police.

____________


Last May, three members of the Royal Order of Jesters were caught in a federal human trafficking/prostitution sting.

FBI agents used court ordered wire intercepts to listen the owner of the four "massage parlors," Len Wah Chong, as she ran her prostitution businesses over the phone. Agents heard her talking shop with a former New York state Supreme Court Judge and former director of the Buffalo chapter of the Royal Order of Jesters Court #22, Ronald Tills. He not only frequented the “massage parlors,” but also supported Len Wah Chong by taking some of her illegal alien prostitutes to weekend Jester parties in Kentucky, Pennsylvania and West Virginia. In his plea agreement, Tills also admitted to coordinating prostitutes with top Jester leaders for a national meeting in Canada.

The FBI's human trafficking sting caught two other Jesters besides Judge Tills. They are former police captain John Trowbridge and former prosecutor for the Erie County district attorney's office, former New York State Supreme Court law clerk and former Impresario of the Jesters Buffalo Court #22, Michael Stebick.

All three entered into plea agreements for violating or conspiring to violate the Mann Act, which was born of the United States White-Slave Traffic Act of 1910. It prohibited white slavery, banned the interstate transport of females for "immoral purposes" and addressed prostitution, immorality, and human trafficking.

The owner of the “massage parlors,” Len Wah Chong, was sentenced on November 19 to six years in federal prison for enslaving as many as 11 illegal alien prostitutes. She pleaded guilty early last April to "Sex Trafficking of Persons by Force, Fraud and Coercion." She forfeited two properties,$70K in cash and jewelry seized and now must pay $350,000 in restitution to those she kept as sex slaves.

www.freemasonrywatch.org... sentenced.html


Partying with prostitutes and child sex tourism paid by Jester's charity.



"And who convinced the IRS that the Jesters qualify as a non profit group?
Their 2006 tax return shows that though they lost $14,000, Jesters national
spent over $575,000 on one of their weekend parties. I know. Some of you are thinking
"Partying with prostitutes at tax payer expense? Where do I sign up?

Child sex tourism? 19 members of the Royal Order of Jesters were called as witnesses
in a federal lawsuit between fishing tour operators to testify about their first hand
knowledge of sex with minors while on a sanctioned fishing trip to Brazil.
But hey, don’t take my word for it. Check the FBI press releases, documents in
the PACER federal court system, AP, MSNBC, Newsday, the Buffalo
News, and the New York Times.

.......The Shriners spent over $12 million this past year convincing everyone
just how amazing they are. Dudes, you're sponsoring a charity
associated with white collar crime, prostitution and human trafficking."[/I]

www.jrgenius.com... 3108/Page13Halloween.pdf


Prostitution.



freemasonsfordummies.blogspot.com... robe-of-jesters-expands.html

"During the initiation of new Jesters I was offered the opportunity by another fellow brother to sleep with a whore, even though I had a wife and kids waiting for me to come home. I was not strong at the time and I violated every oath I had ever taken with my wife. This did not stop at initiation. These were a constant occurrence at our Jester functions and they are a common occurrence today. The initiation practices have not changed as well. Prostitutes were offered/made available at our functions and often brothers would have sex in front of other brothers.

Oral sex competitions between brothers were considered “fun” activities to build a strong brotherhood bond between members of the Royal Order of Jesters. Potentates and Chaplains, Attorneys and Judges, Past Masters and brothers all participating or watching with open eyes, but closed minds. I often felt ashamed of what I was doing, but the pleasure outweighed the guilt. I had fallen within a deep hole and my cable-tow had been severed.

Sex, illegal gambling and Alcohol were and are the preferred order of business to ease the "pain" of brother masons. Prostitutes are available at Jester functions for the brothers to have their way with.

There is also illegal gambling at our functions where Masonic brethren are playing high-stakes games with hard-earned cash. I have seen it all brothers and it is going on today, right under your noses, within your communities, and these men are calling themselves your Masonic Brothers." [/I]





"For more than a century of it's existance to become a Shriner you must have first become at least a 32 Degree Scottish Rite or Royal Arch Degree York Rite Freemason.

During the 2000 Imperial Session the Shrine lowered this requirement to only the 3rd or Master Mason Degree to stem membership losses, over the strenuous objections of the Supreme Council 33 of the Scottish Rite. It remains to be seen whether this controversial decision will be overturned by an expected campaign by the Scottish Rite to save itself from a possible membership implosion which could occur without having the carrot of the Shrine to dangle.

Most masons want to 'Get to the Shrine' as quickly as possible because they say that is where all the best parties are, and the most 'fun' is.

This is the primary reason most masons gave for putting themselves through the visibly occultic higher degrees of Scottish and York Rite Freemasonry."

www.freemasonrywatch.org...



World’s worst charities



There’s no question that without charitable works, the world would be a worse place to live. And that’s all the more reason that when we give money to a non-profit group, we need to make sure it’s the right one.

The American Institute of Philanthropy is one of several national charity watchdog organizations. It recently published its report card on 100 “failing” charities… charities that the AIP would not recommend you donate money to.

And you might be surprised at some of the results. Top failing charities in AIP’s estimation?

1. Research to Prevent Blindness
2. Shriners Hospitals for Children..................

The 1998 National Charity Report for the Ancient Arabic Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine - 'The Shrine', recorded a staggering 8 Billion Dollars in Assets, a 1.2 Billion Dollar increase over the previous year. Interestingly however only a mere 6 percent or 500 Million Dollars of that asset base was fixed assets - it's hospitals and rehabilitation facilities. The other 94 percent is listed simply as investments.

Also the Shriners posted an amazing 233 Million Dollar profit for the same year.


www.freemasonrywatch.org...


Silly homo-erotic initiation rites.



Would-Be Shriner Says He Was Subjected to Painful Initiation Rites
The Associated Press
November 20, 1991

LEXINGTON, Ky. - Michael G. Vaughan says he went to the Shrine temple to learn the secrets of the universe. What he learned, he says, is that the Shrine's initiation rites involve electric shocks and the humiliation of having one's underwear filled with strawberries and whipped cream.

Before Circuit Judge George Barker issued a gag order last summer, Vaughan said in interviews that he wanted to become a Shriner because the group promised spiritual and emotional fulfillment.


So, in 1989, he and about three dozen other initiates stood before an audience of Shriners and began a series of tests, which included walking on an electrified mat, sitting on an electrified bench and getting a jolt of electricity to their bare buttocks, the lawsuit says.

At one point, the lawsuit says, Vaughan's shorts were taped to his legs and he suspected a nearby sinkful of strawberries, whipped cream and ice cream was to be poured into them.

This last humiliation was not carried out, he says, because a table fell over and took him with it. The lawsuit says Vaughan hit his head on the floor and was knocked unconscious.

................
A court-ordered videotape of the temple's initiation devices confirmed much of Vaughan's story, including the existence of the electrified bench and mat

www.freemasonrywatch.org...




Only 2 percent of the Shrine hospitals’ operating income comes from money raised by Shrine temples and members’ dues. (The bulk is supplied by the hospitals’ $9 billion endowment.)

¶A top Shrine official told a meeting of temple treasurers that poor accounting for cash coming into the organization was “an increasingly common problem,” and that more than 30 temples had discovered fraud — like theft of money and inventory, altered bank statements, padded payrolls and fake invoices — amounting to as much as $300,000 and involving members of their “divans,” the five-member boards that govern each temple.

In one of the rare cases where the Shrine prosecuted wrongdoing, the Zem Zem temple in Erie, Pa., accused a former top official last year of misappropriating $1.2 million in bingo revenues. The temple settled for an undisclosed amount.

Critics say the line has been blurred between money raised for the hospitals and for members’ entertainment.

“Money raised for the hospitals is being used to pay for parties and liquor and trips, and they know it,” said Johnny L. Edwards, who was a leader of Oasis Shrine in Charlotte, N.C., until he began campaigning for better control over money. “The way I see it, they’re stealing from crippled children.”


Only 2 percent of the hospitals’ operating expenses — $11.3 million a year, on average, from 2002 to 2005 — comes from money raised by Shrine temples and dues paid by their 411,000 members worldwide, according to the Shrine’s financial accounts.

www.freemasonrywatch.org... ml




Jester Confesses to Wife He Organized Prostitutes

Mon Aug 25, 2008

Sandy Frost


Note: The Royal Order of Jesters’ parties are called “Books” that involve the members performing the “Book of the Play.” It can be read here. Apparently, the “Book of the Play” revolves around the murder of William Shakespeare. This, according to the Jesters’ website, is how they obtained IRS status as a “charity”:


JW: He maybe attended two a year for the first two years, but by his seventh year, he had 14 trips planned. Finally, I said “enough, where do I fit in anymore?” In all of our married years, John never stopped at a bar after work with the guys. He took, maybe, one golf trip a year without me. We were a team and did everything together.

Everything he did now or anywhere we went was associated with the Jesters.

He was completely obsessed, though he couldn't see it. I noticed how he bragged about being a member. Jesters are not supposed to advertise themselves as being Jesters, as it is kind of a secret organization. But John would wear purple, carry purple emblemmed golf bags, license plates, and boast about it being a strictly stag, luxury organization for no purpose other than to spread mirth. The more I heard that, the more disgusted I became. I also noticed that he was not taking cell phone calls in front of me, or he would go outside to talk. He used to let me answer his phone.

I had no lingering suspicions. I had heard about the girls by accident, about the second year that John was in. He certainly played it down, and told me he had nothing to do with them, they were kept separate, no contact at all. I believed him. I didn't ask any more questions. The Jesters oath is “What you hear here, what you see here, stays here when you leave here.” Every new member must take that oath. He was a bit open with me about some of the things that went on, I guess telling me just enough not to arouse any suspicions. So I definitely discovered our problem after a specific incident.

It happened at the same time I realized how many trips he was taking. As a matter of fact he was at his court’s book, when I received a phone message:

“Hi John, this is Jane from St. Louis. I'm at the Union Station in downtown Chicago and wonder if you're sending a Jester to pick me up of if I should get the shuttle.”

I called him on his cell phone and told him he should train his Jester girls better so they don't call the wife. He of course didn't know what to say. This was on a Thursday. I thought he would come home right away, as the hotel was just 1/2 hour away. He didn't come home until Saturday night, although he did call me later to try to explain.

..........When I confronted him, he explained to me how it works. The Jesters have a “pool” of girls. Certain men have their favorites and make requests to have them at the books. It is up to each court's Director to assign the job of inviting the girls, a number based of the number of attendees. In this case, eight girls were invited for between 180-200 men. He says that only about 20% of the men use the girls, but a friend said it's more like 70%. I really don't know. They get $100 an hour. ......

He was asked to do the job because he travelled so much and knew who the girls were and who the favorites were......

.......Off duty cops act as guards for the secure floors, so they already know about it. ?

.........It's like at Halloween when you dress up and are something you would never be any other day. That is the closest I can analyze how he felt with the Jesters. They drink only top shelf, money is no object, stay at the best places, dress in tuxedos and get away with whatever.

...Other than girls, there is a lot of high stakes poker, low stakes gin, and 24 hour hospitality rooms. The initiation involves “stunts” which I know include nudity, but I don't know much about it.


The Royal Order of Jesters is a secret sub group made up of invited Shriner leaders. ...............The Jesters applied to the IRS and were granted two non profit classifications, one fraternal and the other charitable. The charity was formed so the National Jester Court could build a new million dollar museum/headquarters, from which to oversee the fraternity.

(1) According to court documents, the U.S. Attorney's office describes the Royal Order of Jesters as:

This organization maintained chapters throughout the United States, including in Western New York, and it was the custom of these chapters to host periodic meetings, usually on weekends, for their members. At most of these meetings, some members of the organization would be tasked to arrange for the presence of women at the meetings, for the specific purpose of utilizing the women to engage in sexual intercourse and other sexual activity with the organization's members in exchange for money."

sandyfrost.newsvine.com... 2008/08/25/1784263-jester-confesses-to-wife-he-organized-prostitutes."





The International Royal Order of Jesters oversees nearly 200 clubs. Their members include(d) United States Presidents, including Truman and Ford, congressmen, governors, state representatives, federal judges, US district attorneys and secretaries of state. Their ranks are swollen with doctors, lawyers, sheriffs, Masonic Grand Masters and Shrine leaders.
............
Have the Jesters hustled the feds by convincing them that raising millions for partying is a legitimate exempt purpose because the IRS has had no problem classifying them as both a nonprofit fraternity and charity?
...............

•Prostitutes were available for Jesters to have their way with

•Brothers had sex in front of other brothers

•Brothers held oral sex competitions

•Potentates, Chaplains, Attorneys, Judges and Past Masters were Jesters

•Sex, illegal gambling and alcohol were the preferred order of business

www.illuminati-news.com...




* Eleven out of twelve of Shriner Hospitals for Children (SHC) trustees are Jesters.

* Fourteen out of twenty one of those listed on the SHC 2006 tax returns are Jesters.

* Nine out of fourteen of those listed on the 2006 fraternal tax return are Jesters.

This could help explain the hospital's financial woes that nearly led to closures. ...... The last Shriner national convention saw a vote to keep the hospitals open as well as throw out former SHC CEO, Ralph Semb.

An internal investigation investigated Semb and Imperial Treasurer Gene Bracewell and, among other things, recommended that they be reprimanded for lobbying on behalf of [B]a fundraiser who kept $43 million out of $47 million raised for the hospitals

aconstantineblacklist.blogspot.com... x-returns-reveal-jesters-controlled.html



The Offical Jesters Website is on www.iroj.org.... Their frontpage states: The Royal Order of Jesters proudly believe and participate in Masonry.

The Jesters and the Shriners are mentioned on the "Concordant Bodies of Masonry" page of
www.mastermason.com...

Lux
Blasphemy, heresy, war, revolution, etc.

edit on 17-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: Formatting




posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 06:02 PM
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Unfortunately You and you're thread seem to be Detached from reality in the sense That ALL your website's youve used for information are based on No Fact and only oppinion, If i sought to describe a Rose as Ugly i would easilly do so However it would be completely and Utterly wrong to describe a rose as that.
What you my freind have done here is focused on every negative peice of Un-Supported information you can find and posted a thread about it, But you arnt really offering enlightenment at all are you?
This thread is a testament to how badly idiots can perceive a Organisation that seeks to better humanity in the lack of either real evidence, Understanding Or Truth
edit on 17/2/11 by TedHodgson because: spelling



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 06:18 PM
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My grandfather was a Potentate of the El Zaribah Shrine in Phoenix, AZ. He was also a Jester. While there may be some truth, as there are always deviates in literally every organization, I can assure you that it is not the norm. I went to almost every Official Visitation with my grandparents and they are funded by the different organizations who are putting on the event, not through some slush fund, or whatever.

Just remember this- if you ever need medical help, show up at a Shriner's Hospital and they will help you.

With all that said, I do believe that there are some backroom dealings and whatnot, the masons are not lilly white by any means. My grandfather would not go 33rd degree, I never asked him why, and did not start learning about the "dark side" of masonry until after his death. He was both York Rite and Scottish Rite and however that ties in with the 32nd degree stuff, I'm not an expert on this topic by any means.

There are 1200 Jesters at any given time and my grandfather would not have been involved with them if they were doing anything unethical. Jesters don't talk about Jester stuff and I don't know anything beyond what my grampa told me, which was about there being 1200, you get asked to join when a member dies, and if you ever inquire about becoming a Jester, you will never be asked to become a Jester. The only Jewelry grampa wore was a rope necklace with his little Jester dude.

I sure miss him. Thanks for bringing back some good memories for me. :-)



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 06:18 PM
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Originally posted by TedHodgson
Unfortunately You and you're thread seem to be Detached from reality in the sense That ALL your website's youve used for information are based on No Fact and only oppinion, If i sought to describe a Rose as Ugly i would easilly do so However it would be completely and Utterly wrong to describe a rose as that.
What you my freind have done here is focused on every negative peice of Un-Supported information you can find and posted a thread about it, But you arnt really offering enlightenment at all are you?
This thread is a testament to how badly idiots can perceive a Organisation that seeks to better humanity in the lack of either real evidence, Understanding Or Truth
edit on 17/2/11 by TedHodgson because: spelling


Contradiction and abuse are poor substitutes for intelligent argument and evidence, and often the last cries of the despairing in debate.

You may think that that running charity scams and spending charity money on drunken events with strippers and prostitutes is "bettering" humanity; however it is not a judgement I accept. If however you have evidence which suggests that any of the above claims are untrue and have been fabricated, and are thus, as you claim "unsupported," and based on "no fact," then please post that evidence.

I have no problem with drunken orgies in esoteric societies; indeed I approve of such behaviour; it is probably the "absence" of such behaviour in religion that makes religious rituals so boring; but with regards to Masons running a charity scam where old men get drunk, employ strippers and pay for sex with prostitutes and sex slaves (trafficked women), I find that to be rather tacky and unethical.

Lux

edit on 17-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: addition to text



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 06:29 PM
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All of the talk of evil Masons.
If you don't like em don't support em.
Personally i have seen the good things Masons have done, and none of the bad so....
There is my fact.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 06:37 PM
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Originally posted by g146541
All of the talk of evil Masons.
If you don't like em don't support em.
Personally i have seen the good things Masons have done, and none of the bad so....
There is my fact.


I have no objection to many of the modern esoteric societies which have revised and reformed the Masonic rituals; indeed I have been involved in the British Neopagan movement for over a decade and have been under the philosophical and magickal influence of Crowley since my youth, however "Regular Masons" in general seem to be just members of a corrupt and antiquated organsation, and who are just part of the Capitalist establishment. While I don't accept most of the rather bizarre claims made by anti-Masonic conspiracy theorists, I do accept the general argument and evidence presented by Martin Short in "Inside the Brotherhood" that it is a corrupt and economically incestuous club for social climbers who wish to climb up the Capitalist food chain. From a British perspective Masonry seems to me to be just another Capitalist gang like the Italian, Russian or Japanese Mafia, all of whom have initiation rites, oaths and religious elements, though the Masons have been much more successful in becoming part of the establishment.

The Capitalist world is not ruled by Masons; it is ruled by Capitalists, however many Masons do appear to be participants and conservative defenders of the International Dictatorship of Capitalism, and are thus part of the problem, not part of the solution. Since this is the case, it would seem to disprove the common conspiracy theory thesis that they are the inheritors of the tradition of the 18th century Illuminists.

Lux

edit on 17-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: addition to text



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by Lucifer777
...and have been under the philosophical and magickal influence of Crowley since my youth...


Okey dokey.

Thank you for playing, be sure to pick up your nice parting gifts on the way out.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 08:23 PM
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what you have listed as offences include the incident with the Jesters that was exactly as reported. It was very unfortunate and the men involved were certainly not acting masonicly, they were expelled from masonry and charged with the crimes they stood accused of.

Please tell me other than that, what facts do you and freemaosnrywatch have to offer about other charity scams?
Please let me know what the shriners are doing with their money besides running several hospitals free of charge to any patients?

And while you finish that, please tell me where masonry gets it's money from? Craft masonry.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by network dude
what you have listed as offences include the incident with the Jesters that was exactly as reported. It was very unfortunate and the men involved were certainly not acting masonicly, they were expelled from masonry and charged with the crimes they stood accused of.

Please tell me other than that, what facts do you and freemaosnrywatch have to offer about other charity scams?


I was referring specifically to the Shriners. Despite citing posts from freemasonrywatch which I picked up from Google searches, I would like to distance myself from the position represented by the Roman Catholic owner of that site, which is that Masonry is essentially a "Satanic" organisation. I would probably have to define myself as a Satanist, by Christian definition, not that I worship any gods, or a being named Satan, of course. The Masons and Catholics on the other hand seem to be more traditional theists. The news articles from Freemasonrywatch have anyway been lifted from other souces on the web, and just because they appear on the Internet site of a Christian religious fanatic, does not make them false.

With regards to the accusation that the Shriners are the world's largest non relgious charity scam, I doubt if expelling a few Masons will refute that claim or change anything.



And while you finish that, please tell me where masonry gets it's money from? Craft masonry.



Division and Conquest.

I am of the opinion that the two most dangerous threats to humankind are Christianity and Islam, both of which are militant and genocidal phenomena, whose professional hypnotists have hundreds of millions of people under their spell.



Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers). As I understand it, some Masonic lodges have charity status and others operate as franchise businesses, however as far as I am concerned they are just part of the multi-billion dollar religion business, irrespective of whether there are corruption charges against them or not. The matter of the rather ridiculous cult of the Shriners is anyway only an American problem; the intelligensia of the British Masons anyway seem to share a contempt for American Shriners. As previously stated, the general critique against British Masonry is Martin Short's "Inside the Brotherhood."

My general critique of organised religion appears on the "Conspiracies in Religion" subforum, "The Dangers of Religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination: The genocidal faiths of Christianity & Islam" on: www.abovetopsecret.com...




My general prediction for the future is that there is likely to be a apocalyptic "Holy War" between the adherents of the two major memetic viruses, Christianity and Islam, and in a post nuclear age, many innocents may well be victims of such a war, however hopefully it will bring an end to both religions, universal hatred against the adherents of these religious and victory for their common enemies.

Were the Masons truly the inheritors of the radical proto-Anarchist politics of the 18th century Illuminists, I would change my position, but sadly it is not so, they mostly seem to be defenders of the Capitalist establishment. Freemasonry in my judgement is not a revolutionary movement, but a conservative (to conserve the values of the past), aristocratic and regressive movement which serves no positive purpose in the modern world.

For every slave a master, and for every master a slave; neither slave nor master be; no gods no masters."

Lux

"The critcism of religion is the premise of all criticism" Marx

edit on 17-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: addition to text

edit on 17-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: images added



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by DragonTattooz
My grandfather was a Potentate of the El Zaribah Shrine in Phoenix, AZ. ...Just remember this- if you ever need medical help, show up at a Shriner's Hospital and they will help you.


I am European and we have socialised healthcare, which as I understand it is considered by the US political right as tantamount to Communism.

I should point out that my father is a Scottish Mason. I am good terms with my father and I have no personal animosity towards him; on the contrary. Personally he is a rather decent person; however I am only referring to my father "personally" and not to his political and religious views. When it comes to religion and politics, my disagreements with him are purely from an ideological and anti-religious perspective and it is not a "personal" matter. I have not discussed the "Shriners" with him, but I am quite sure that he would hold them in contempt.

My family has a long tradition of being divided over radical politics; my father's definition of a Capitalist Christian God is my personal definition of the "Devil," which is why I refer to him often as "my father the devil" however I use the term satirically and not literally.

Masonry in Scotland is essentially a Messianic club for the Scottish economic establishment, the business community, banking, the judiciary etc. They tend to have rather old fashioned values and are referred to as the "Scottish Mafia" for good reason; which is why I am surprised when conspiracy theorists accuse them of seeking to carry out the revolutionary agenda of the 18th century Illuminists; nothing could be further from the truth; they tend to be politically and economically conservative rather than revolutionary, and my father is a perfect example a "political conservative" while I and other members of my extended family have more radical and socialist views.

Lux
edit on 17-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: mis-spelling-itis



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 06:34 AM
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reply to post by Lucifer777
 

Masons are not humanists. We allow men of various faiths to join and as such are tolerant. Lodge is a neutral zone where neither politics nor religion is talked about or one side held over others.

Do you have proof that only a fraction goes to charity? Cause I know sometimes they save up and do stuff like I don't know...open a new wing like they did a year or two ago in Oregon. Do you have proof that these guys have stripper parties? It's easy for someone to "report" (allege/accuse) these things of happening, its quite another that it actually happens.

I would also like you to say the Shriners Hospitals are a scam to some of the recipients of the charity. See what they have to say.

In the old days you had to either go through the Scottish Rite or the York Rite to join the Shriners. Today, you just have to be a Master Mason in good standing to join.

FreemasonryWatch is your source for this? Yeah, you've lost all credibility with that right there.

Like I've said, I would like to see some evidence, not some guys word, but to see the documents.


Originally posted by Lucifer777
Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers).

Masonry certainly is not a sect of Christianity. Freemasonry belongs to no religion. It requires a man to hold a faith to join, but doesn't dictate what faith it is. The York Rite, a branch of Freemasonry, is more oriented to Christianity, but that is really only in the Chivalric Orders.

I take pride in being a Christian Knight, but I'm not going on some crusade against Islam.

If this is what you believe Freemasonry to be you really need to do more research or just ask questions of those who are members.


Originally posted by Lucifer777

As a soldier and a Christian, I take great offense to being compared to a suicide bomber.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by Lucifer777


Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers). As I understand it, some Masonic lodges have charity status and others operate as franchise businesses, however as far as I am concerned they are just part of the multi-billion dollar religion business, irrespective of whether there are corruption charges against them or not.


that seems to be the problem. Your understanding of what masonry is has come from the wrong sources. With your father being a mason, that surprises the hell out of me. The bull sh!t on freemasonrywatch is just that. Yes the jesters thing happened, and years ago, before you had to be a mason to be a shriner, there was some trouble there. But masonry is the exact opposite of militant Christianity or Islam. We have Christian and Islamic members, but instead of hate each other and plot for their demise, they work together and learn to be tolerant of other beliefs.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Lucifer777
 

Masons are not humanists. We allow men of various faiths to join and as such are tolerant. Lodge is a neutral zone where neither politics nor religion is talked about or one side held over others.

Do you have proof that only a fraction goes to charity? Cause I know sometimes they save up and do stuff like I don't know...open a new wing like they did a year or two ago in Oregon. Do you have proof that these guys have stripper parties? It's easy for someone to "report" (allege/accuse) these things of happening, its quite another that it actually happens.

I would also like you to say the Shriners Hospitals are a scam to some of the recipients of the charity. See what they have to say.

In the old days you had to either go through the Scottish Rite or the York Rite to join the Shriners. Today, you just have to be a Master Mason in good standing to join.

FreemasonryWatch is your source for this? Yeah, you've lost all credibility with that right there.

Like I've said, I would like to see some evidence, not some guys word, but to see the documents.


Originally posted by Lucifer777
Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers).

Masonry certainly is not a sect of Christianity. Freemasonry belongs to no religion. It requires a man to hold a faith to join, but doesn't dictate what faith it is. The York Rite, a branch of Freemasonry, is more oriented to Christianity, but that is really only in the Chivalric Orders.

I take pride in being a Christian Knight, but I'm not going on some crusade against Islam.

If this is what you believe Freemasonry to be you really need to do more research or just ask questions of those who are members.


Originally posted by Lucifer777

As a soldier and a Christian, I take great offense to being compared to a suicide bomber.



Well said Brother.

You have to love these people who cut and paste 5 pages of drivel from that site. It's like the blind leading the blind.

It is disgusting to me when I see these people bashing the Shrine. 22 hospitals across the country, free medical treatment to children = they must be evil. Sad times we're living in...



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 07:52 AM
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I experienced masonic charity in a hospice for dying children last week first hand. From that perspective I consider the idea of it being a "scam" a violent affront to every truth-loving person.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by Skyfloating
I experienced masonic charity in a hospice for dying children last week first hand. From that perspective I consider the idea of it being a "scam" a violent affront to every truth-loving person.


Skyfloating,

I can only hope that one of yours was not hospitalized. May God bless you and yours. It is the will and pleasure of every Mason to help when and where they can. At every lodge meeting we pray for the sick and distressed known and unknown. I will add you to our prayer list.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 09:28 AM
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I'm not even sure how to approach a reply to the original post. You seem to be all over the place, and are trying to make too many arguments at once.

A few points: If there are over 1.4 million Masons in America, and if there are only 1200 Jesters at any given time (as DragonTattooz has indicated), then the percentage of Masons who are Jesters is minuscule. If you're not making the sweeping statement that all Jesters are corrupt, then we're talking about an even smaller number. I mean, I'd even be generous and say 100 Jesters may have been in on the prostitution ring. Even that sounds like a large number for that nature of crime. So 100 bad people in a group of 1,400,000 people. That seems statistically insignificant. (Not to say the rest are saints, but if you want to pick on corrupt Jesters, try to put them in context...)

Even Sandy Frost herself admits she overgeneralized in some of her accusations.

You seem offended that some Masonic sub-groups are specifically Christian. Masonry as a whole is not. Yes, there are plenty of groups you can join after you become a Mason that require a Christian belief. And considering Christianity is the dominant religion in America, that makes sense. But the institution of Masonry has no specific religious affiliation.

You say the Shrine has 8 billion in the bank. If, by other reports, they spend a half-billion a year keeping their charity hospitals open, then at any point in time they've theoretically got a 16 year operating budget. I would think this was a good thing. If they stopped accepting donations today, they could continue to help burn victims for 16 years before they ran out of money. I'm trying to see the down side here.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by JoshNorton
You say the Shrine has 8 billion in the bank. If, by other reports, they spend a half-billion a year keeping their charity hospitals open, then at any point in time they've theoretically got a 16 year operating budget. I would think this was a good thing. If they stopped accepting donations today, they could continue to help burn victims for 16 years before they ran out of money. I'm trying to see the down side here.


I was under the impression that most charity funds function in this manner. It allows them to use retunrs on the principal to fund operations as long as the market continues to show an increase year to year. I know this is how we operate the Maosnic home in New Jersey which uses the divedends to fund yearly operations.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Lucifer777
 

Do you have proof that only a fraction goes to charity?


The allegation is made in the links above by Sandy Frost. I have not personally researched the matter, but to merely become defensive and to contradict such allegations hardly constitutes an argument against the allegations


"The Shrine fraternity, which operates the nation’s largest charity, has been misleading the public for years…In 1984, the circuses reaped an estimated profit of $17.5 million. The charity’s own records show the hospitals received only 1 per cent of that, a total of $182,000."
sandyfrost.newsvine.com... 2/07/2188846-jester-prostitution-updates-stebick-sentenced




Cause I know sometimes they save up and do stuff like I don't know...open a new wing like they did a year or two ago in Oregon.


It is not being suggested that the Shriner Masons do not operate hospitals, and more than it has been suggested that by critics of Mother Theresa that she does not operate hospices, merely that most of the money raised by both charities does not go for hospitals and hospices. In the case of the Shriners, it is alleged that much of their charity money goes to finance drunken all male (apart from strippers and prostitutes) parties.


Do you have proof that these guys have stripper parties? It's easy for someone to "report" (allege/accuse) these things of happening, its quite another that it actually happens.



The reports in the media appear to be quite widespread. Are you suggesting that they have been entirely fabricated? In the US where "litigation mania" runs riot I would think that the world's biggest non religious charity would have an army of lawyers which would be able to deal with such claims were they to have been fabricated by the media.

I should point out that I posted the OP, and a number of other posts relating to this issue on a British forum frequented by mostly British Freemasons about a year ago, and the response from Masons was largely non defensive and was essentially to distance themselves from Shrine Masonry.

For example, from the thread www.davidicke.com... which beings with my duplicate of the OP


thelonious:.... Many if not most of the esoteric Masons have viewed the Shriners in an unfavorable light................ most of them are like me: we were initiated in the Shrine, found the whole thing ridiculous, and never went back.


With regards to the Jesters, which is a charity in the US, there are widespread allegations that charity funds are used for the following:


Prostitutes were available for Jesters to have their way with

•Brothers had sex in front of other brothers

•Brothers held oral sex competitions

•Potentates, Chaplains, Attorneys, Judges and Past Masters were Jesters

•Sex, illegal gambling and alcohol were the preferred order of business
..............

The complaint continued that “the Jesters pride themselves in having control of all leadership positions at all of the Shrine Temples in the U.S. and Canada as well as the Imperial Shrine leadership. Also, they have risen through the ranks in every body of Masonry including the Scottish Rite, York Rite, Rosicrucians, Red Cross of Constantine, Eastern Star and the Demolay Organizations.”

.....The International Royal Order of Jesters oversees nearly 200 clubs. Their members include United States Presidents, including Truman and Ford, congressmen, governors, state representatives, federal judges, US district attorneys and secretaries of state. Their ranks are swollen with doctors, lawyers, sheriffs, Masonic Grand Masters and Shrine leaders.

sandyfrost.newsvine.com...[/ url]




FreemasonryWatch is your source for this? Yeah, you've lost all credibility with that right there.

Like I've said, I would like to see some evidence, not some guys word, but to see the documents.


As far as I am concerned the Catholics (like Watchy who runs freemasonrywatch) and the Masons are just two Christian sects (sections of the Christian religion) competing for marketshare in the multi-billion dollar religion business, and tend to be totally hostile to Catholicism, whereas I am much less so with Masonry; however what I do encounter when discussing both sects is that the adherents of both sects appear to be victims (or perpetrators, or both) of religious mind control and display a general inability to look at their own religions criticially, and instead become highly defensive. Watchy has merely only used articles from other sites in the above links anyway.



Originally posted by Lucifer777
Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers).


Masonry certainly is not a sect of Christianity. Freemasonry belongs to no religion.








I am coming to the conclusion that American Masonry seems to be more of an excuse for drunken revelry, but I can assure you that Scottish Masonry (Masonry in Scotland as opposed to the Scottish Rite Masons in the US) is a sect of Messianic Christians who consider themselves to be Christian Knights of an ancient military priesthood; it is most certainly an organisation which can be defined as "religious"



1. "Do you solemnly declare, upon your honor, that in seeking admission to this Valiant and Magnificent Order of Christian Knighthood you are actuated by no mercenary or other unworthy motive?"

2. "If called upon to draw your sword in a religious cause, will you give preference to the Christian Religion?"

3. "Does your conscience accuse you of any crime, unrepented of, which would render you unworthy of becoming member of an Institution founded upon the Christian Religion and the practice of the Christian Virtues?”

I further notice that in Canada the Knight's Templars are referred to as "The Order of the Holy Royal Arch Knight Templar Priests
[url=http://]http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140121



Terms such as "holy priests" would simply not be used by a non-religious organsation of humanists or atheists, neither would they be likely to require their members to swear oaths to draw their sword to defend Christianity, nor would they be likely to describe themselves as an "Institution founded upon the Christian Religion and the practice of the Christian Virtues?”



I take pride in being a Christian Knight, but I'm not going on some crusade against Islam.


The effects of religious hypnosis and indoctrination are generally not noticed by the victims; they are noticed by outside observers.

Masons tend, in my judgement to be victims and perpetrators (often both) of various elements of what Robert Lifton described in "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism" as the "Eight Criteria for Thought Reform":


1.Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
2.Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences.
3.Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
4.Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
5.Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
6.Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
7.Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
8.Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.
en.wikipedia.org... lism



Certainly the defensiveness of Masons when described as religious cultists is common for cultists who have a "cult insider language" where definitions of language are redefined in the cult language; thus all other religionists are religionists but Masons are not religionists, despite conforming to many of the qualities of a religious cult.



]Originally posted by Lucifer777

As a soldier and a Christian, I take great offense to being compared to a suicide bomber.


Yes, but to restate, the effects of religous hypnosis and indoctrination are not apparent to the victims.

I have dealt with this issue in my essay "The Dangers of Religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination: The genocidal faiths of Christianity & Islam." on: www.abovetopsecret.com... and rather than merely restating all the points of the essay here, let me just restate the conclusions of the "Joshua Experiment" in Israel.



B: The Joshua Experiment. The Dangers of Religious Indoctrination.

This experiment by an Israeli psychologist is explained in Richard Dawkin's "God Delusion;" it is a very similar experiment to the Milgram Experiment, but it deals ony with "religion," and it is less well known than the Milgram Experiment, but the conclusion is essentially the same, though it applies to "religious authority."

A class room of students in Israel were told the story of Joshua's Biblical holocaust of the Canaanite Tribes. It was essentially a "tribalistic" genocide. The students were then asked if they considered this to be morally justifiable. Most of the students agreed that it was morally justifiable.

The same story was then told about a different occasion of tribalistic genocide which did not involve the Bible or the ancient tribal deity of the Israelites. There are many examples of this in history, such as the recent Rwandan genocide of 1994 which was, just like Joshua's genocide a "tribalistic" genocide. When the students were asked if they considered such a genocide to be morally justifiable, the majority of them expressed the view that it was not.

These experiments show the dangers of religious indoctrination, where people who think themselves to be "good, godly, righteous, moral" are willing to torture people or to support tribalistic genocide just because some Archon (authority figure) tells them that it is OK, and an Archon can be some dead religious fanatic from 1000's of years ago whom most modernists would probably consider to be as ridiculous as the "Life of Brian" prophets, were they not blinded by religious indoctrination. The effects of submission to religious authorities and to the authority of the state are very subtle; probably most of those Israeli students would not consider themselves to be religious fanatics, nor would most of the subjects of the Milgram experiment consider themselves to be psychopaths.

Ibid



The American state terrorists have a long and provable history of war, military coups, assassinations, narco-terrorism, black operations, false flag operations, and the history of post war intervention in Latin America has left a trail of US backed right wing revolutions and is littered with the blood of the (Communist / Leftist) martyrs.






Of course a US state-terrorist / narco-terrorist collaborator who has been subjected to years of political and religious indoctrination, miltiary obedience training and so forth is highly unlikely to recognise the symptoms of his own hypnosis and indoctrination and it more likely to consider themselves to be saintly, righteous, Christian knights (solders) defending Christendom, just as it was for the Nazis who swore oaths to "Gott und fuhrer," many of them who also considered themselves to be saintly Teutonic knights on a Holy Crusade.

Having said all this, although both the Christians and Muslims have a long history of genocidal warfare, if forced to choose sides on an ad hoc basis between the US Christian state terrorists and the Muslims, I would tend to take sides with the Christian state terrorists, but an "ad hoc" alliance is merely a temporary decision; ultimately both religions have a long and bloody history, both religions have genocidal end times prophecies which predict their victory and both religions advocate totalitarianism, whether by an "Islamic madhi" or a Christian "king of kings (a global theocratic dictator).

Since the context of much of the debate on this forum is the "Illuminati" conspiracy theory, I believe that the objective of Illuminism would and "should" of course be the absolute eradication of "both" the various forms of Christian and Islamic religious cults, though it seems to me .likely that the militant adherents of both religions seek to destroy each other anyway; unfortunately I predict that a great many innocents will be suffer from this apocalyptic conflict before both religions are finally eradicated from the face of the earth.

Addendum


Originally posted by JoshNorton

A few points: If there are over 1.4 million Masons in America, and if there are only 1200 Jesters at any given time (as DragonTattooz has indicated), then the percentage of Masons who are Jesters is minuscule.


The allegations in the OP are not merely about the Jesters, but there are rather similar allegations against the Shriners (ridiculous and rather childish "schoolboy prank" style rituals, using charity funds for drunken parties with strippers and prostitutes), and according to the membership statistics of both the US Masons and Shriners, over a third of all US Masons are Shriners.


You say the Shrine has 8 billion in the bank. If, by other reports, they spend a half-billion a year keeping their charity hospitals open, then at any point in time they've theoretically got a 16 year operating budget. I would think this was a good thing. If they stopped accepting donations today, they could continue to help burn victims for 16 years before they ran out of money. I'm trying to see the down side here.


What is being alleged is that the Hospitals are being run from the their trust fund, while the vast majority of the money raised annually through charitable donations to the Shriners is used to finance Shriner events such as drunken male parties with strippers and prostitutes.

Lux
"The criticism of religion is the premise of all criticism" Marx

edit on 18-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: mis-spelling-itis

edit on 18-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: Addendum



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 03:29 PM
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Originally posted by Lucifer777
In the case of the Shriners, it is alleged that much of their charity money goes to finance drunken all male (apart from strippers and prostitutes) parties.


Please define 'much of'. I would assume that the large majority of the fund is used to operate the numerous hospitals.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 04:02 PM
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Hi there, Just wanna put my two cents in here... I have been a Shriner for about 4 years now, and have been on numerous commitees organizing Shriner events, not ONCE have I ever heard of anything like this outside of anti-Masonic websites that spit nothing but hate[not very christian-like]...

also, the first link you posted Lucifer does not work

also, with alot of events, I forgot to add, is we have to pay for the venues before we can make a profit, so say a east-west football game made 185,000 but it cost us 100k to have the game at an arena, well then you can see where this is going, that might be where some or all of our money goes, I know our east-west game does not raise any money after expenses, we just hold it to get our name out there, heck, sometimes we even lose money on it
edit on 18-2-2011 by TheForgottenOnes because: just adding some things





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