Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by Lucifer777
Do you have proof that only a fraction goes to charity?
The allegation is made in the links above by Sandy Frost. I have not personally researched the matter, but to merely become defensive and to
contradict such allegations hardly constitutes an argument against the allegations
"The Shrine fraternity, which operates the nation’s largest charity, has been misleading the public for years…In 1984, the circuses reaped an
estimated profit of $17.5 million. The charity’s own records show the hospitals received only 1 per cent of that, a total of $182,000."
sandyfrost.newsvine.com...
2/07/2188846-jester-prostitution-updates-stebick-sentenced
Cause I know sometimes they save up and do stuff like I don't know...open a new wing like they did a year or two ago in Oregon.
It is not being suggested that the Shriner Masons do not operate hospitals, and more than it has been suggested that by critics of Mother Theresa that
she does not operate hospices, merely that most of the money raised by both charities does not go for hospitals and hospices. In the case of the
Shriners, it is alleged that much of their charity money goes to finance drunken all male (apart from strippers and prostitutes) parties.
Do you have proof that these guys have stripper parties? It's easy for someone to "report" (allege/accuse) these things of happening, its
quite another that it actually happens.
The reports in the media appear to be quite widespread. Are you suggesting that they have been entirely fabricated? In the US where "litigation mania"
runs riot I would think that the world's biggest non religious charity would have an army of lawyers which would be able to deal with such claims were
they to have been fabricated by the media.
I should point out that I posted the OP, and a number of other posts relating to this issue on a British forum frequented by mostly British Freemasons
about a year ago, and the response from Masons was largely non defensive and was essentially to distance themselves from Shrine Masonry.
For example, from the thread
www.davidicke.com...
which beings with my duplicate of the OP
thelonious:.... Many if not most of the esoteric Masons have viewed the Shriners in an unfavorable light................ most of them are like me:
we were initiated in the Shrine, found the whole thing ridiculous, and never went back.
With regards to the Jesters, which is a charity in the US, there are widespread allegations that charity funds are used for the following:
Prostitutes were available for Jesters to have their way with
•Brothers had sex in front of other brothers
•Brothers held oral sex competitions
•Potentates, Chaplains, Attorneys, Judges and Past Masters were Jesters
•Sex, illegal gambling and alcohol were the preferred order of business
..............
The complaint continued that “the Jesters pride themselves in having control of all leadership positions at all of the Shrine Temples in the U.S.
and Canada as well as the Imperial Shrine leadership. Also, they have risen through the ranks in every body of Masonry including the Scottish Rite,
York Rite, Rosicrucians, Red Cross of Constantine, Eastern Star and the Demolay Organizations.”
.....The International Royal Order of Jesters oversees nearly 200 clubs. Their members include United States Presidents, including Truman and Ford,
congressmen, governors, state representatives, federal judges, US district attorneys and secretaries of state. Their ranks are swollen with doctors,
lawyers, sheriffs, Masonic Grand Masters and Shrine leaders.
sandyfrost.newsvine.com...[/
url]
FreemasonryWatch is your source for this? Yeah, you've lost all credibility with that right there.
Like I've said, I would like to see some evidence, not some guys word, but to see the documents.
As far as I am concerned the Catholics (like Watchy who runs freemasonrywatch) and the Masons are just two Christian sects (sections of the Christian
religion) competing for marketshare in the multi-billion dollar religion business, and tend to be totally hostile to Catholicism, whereas I am much
less so with Masonry; however what I do encounter when discussing both sects is that the adherents of both sects appear to be victims (or
perpetrators, or both) of religious mind control and display a general inability to look at their own religions criticially, and instead become highly
defensive. Watchy has merely only used articles from other sites in the above links anyway.
Originally posted by Lucifer777
Masonry, as I understand it, is just another sect of Christianity whose adherents dress up in fancy dress constumes and consider themselves to be
Christian Knights (i.e., soldiers).
Masonry certainly is not a sect of Christianity. Freemasonry belongs to no religion.
I am coming to the conclusion that American Masonry seems to be more of an excuse for drunken revelry, but I can assure you that Scottish Masonry
(Masonry in Scotland as opposed to the Scottish Rite Masons in the US) is a sect of Messianic Christians who consider themselves to be Christian
Knights of an ancient military priesthood; it is most certainly an organisation which can be defined as "religious"
1. "Do you solemnly declare, upon your honor, that in seeking admission to this Valiant and Magnificent Order of Christian Knighthood you are
actuated by no mercenary or other unworthy motive?"
2. "If called upon to draw your sword in a religious cause, will you give preference to the Christian Religion?"
3. "Does your conscience accuse you of any crime, unrepented of, which would render you unworthy of becoming member of an Institution founded upon the
Christian Religion and the practice of the Christian Virtues?”
I further notice that in Canada the Knight's Templars are referred to as "The Order of the Holy Royal Arch Knight Templar Priests
[url=http://]http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=140121
Terms such as "holy priests" would simply not be used by a non-religious organsation of humanists or atheists, neither would they be likely to require
their members to swear oaths to draw their sword to defend Christianity, nor would they be likely to describe themselves as an
"Institution founded
upon the Christian Religion and the practice of the Christian Virtues?”
I take pride in being a Christian Knight, but I'm not going on some crusade against Islam.
The effects of religious hypnosis and indoctrination are generally not noticed by the victims; they are noticed by outside observers.
Masons tend, in my judgement to be victims and perpetrators (often both) of various elements of what Robert Lifton described in
"Thought Reform and
the Psychology of Totalism" as the "Eight Criteria for Thought Reform":
1.Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual,
resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
2.Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its
leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart
from humanity, and that allows reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences.
3.Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive
for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
4.Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality;
members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
5.Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found
outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
6.Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon
consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
7.Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or
reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
8.Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means
that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the
group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should
any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.
en.wikipedia.org...
lism
Certainly the defensiveness of Masons when described as religious cultists is common for cultists who have a "cult insider language" where definitions
of language are redefined in the cult language; thus all other religionists are religionists but Masons are not religionists, despite conforming to
many of the qualities of a religious cult.
]Originally posted by Lucifer777
As a soldier and a Christian, I take great offense to being compared to a suicide bomber.
Yes, but to restate, the effects of religous hypnosis and indoctrination are not apparent to the victims.
I have dealt with this issue in my essay
"The Dangers of Religious Hypnosis and Indoctrination: The genocidal faiths of Christianity &
Islam." on:
www.abovetopsecret.com... and rather
than merely restating all the points of the essay here, let me just restate the conclusions of the "Joshua Experiment" in Israel.
B: The Joshua Experiment. The Dangers of Religious Indoctrination.
This experiment by an Israeli psychologist is explained in Richard Dawkin's "God Delusion;" it is a very similar experiment to the Milgram Experiment,
but it deals ony with "religion," and it is less well known than the Milgram Experiment, but the conclusion is essentially the same, though it applies
to "religious authority."
A class room of students in Israel were told the story of Joshua's Biblical holocaust of the Canaanite Tribes. It was essentially a "tribalistic"
genocide. The students were then asked if they considered this to be morally justifiable. Most of the students agreed that it was morally
justifiable.
The same story was then told about a different occasion of tribalistic genocide which did not involve the Bible or the ancient tribal deity of the
Israelites. There are many examples of this in history, such as the recent Rwandan genocide of 1994 which was, just like Joshua's genocide a
"tribalistic" genocide. When the students were asked if they considered such a genocide to be morally justifiable, the majority of them expressed the
view that it was not.
These experiments show the dangers of religious indoctrination, where people who think themselves to be "good, godly, righteous, moral" are willing to
torture people or to support tribalistic genocide just because some Archon (authority figure) tells them that it is OK, and an Archon can be some dead
religious fanatic from 1000's of years ago whom most modernists would probably consider to be as ridiculous as the "Life of Brian" prophets, were they
not blinded by religious indoctrination. The effects of submission to religious authorities and to the authority of the state are very subtle;
probably most of those Israeli students would not consider themselves to be religious fanatics, nor would most of the subjects of the Milgram
experiment consider themselves to be psychopaths.
Ibid
The American state terrorists have a long and provable history of war, military coups, assassinations, narco-terrorism, black operations, false flag
operations, and the history of post war intervention in Latin America has left a trail of US backed right wing revolutions and is littered with the
blood of the (Communist / Leftist) martyrs.
Of course a US state-terrorist / narco-terrorist collaborator who has been subjected to years of political and religious indoctrination, miltiary
obedience training and so forth is highly unlikely to recognise the symptoms of his own hypnosis and indoctrination and it more likely to consider
themselves to be saintly, righteous, Christian knights (solders) defending Christendom, just as it was for the Nazis who swore oaths to
"Gott und
fuhrer," many of them who also considered themselves to be saintly Teutonic knights on a Holy Crusade.
Having said all this, although both the Christians and Muslims have a long history of genocidal warfare, if forced to choose sides on an ad hoc basis
between the US Christian state terrorists and the Muslims, I would tend to take sides with the Christian state terrorists, but an "ad hoc" alliance is
merely a temporary decision; ultimately both religions have a long and bloody history, both religions have genocidal end times prophecies which
predict their victory and both religions advocate totalitarianism, whether by an "Islamic madhi" or a Christian "king of kings (a global theocratic
dictator).
Since the context of much of the debate on this forum is the "Illuminati" conspiracy theory, I believe that the objective of Illuminism would and
"should" of course be the absolute eradication of "both" the various forms of Christian and Islamic religious cults, though it seems to me .likely
that the militant adherents of both religions seek to destroy each other anyway; unfortunately I predict that a great many innocents will be suffer
from this apocalyptic conflict before both religions are finally eradicated from the face of the earth.
Addendum
Originally posted by JoshNorton
A few points: If there are over 1.4 million Masons in America, and if there are only 1200 Jesters at any given time (as DragonTattooz has indicated),
then the percentage of Masons who are Jesters is minuscule.
The allegations in the OP are not merely about the Jesters, but there are rather similar allegations against the Shriners (ridiculous and rather
childish "schoolboy prank" style rituals, using charity funds for drunken parties with strippers and prostitutes), and according to the membership
statistics of both the US Masons and Shriners, over a third of all US Masons are Shriners.
You say the Shrine has 8 billion in the bank. If, by other reports, they spend a half-billion a year keeping their charity hospitals open, then
at any point in time they've theoretically got a 16 year operating budget. I would think this was a good thing. If they stopped accepting donations
today, they could continue to help burn victims for 16 years before they ran out of money. I'm trying to see the down side here.
What is being alleged is that the Hospitals are being run from the their trust fund, while the vast majority of the money raised annually through
charitable donations to the Shriners is used to finance Shriner events such as drunken male parties with strippers and prostitutes.
Lux
"The criticism of religion is the premise of all criticism" Marx
edit on 18-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: mis-spelling-itis
edit on 18-2-2011 by Lucifer777 because: Addendum