reply to post by Flatfish
At this point, I'm confident that anyone who continues to support governor Walker and/or his tactics will find themselves on the wrong side of
history in the long run.
*yawn* Your confidence doesn't go very far.
This hugely corrupt scheme, to eliminate labor unions and deny the american worker the right to organize and be represented, orchestrated by
the republican party and their corporate donors, is in the beginning stages of blowing up in their faces.
Not the sharpest lightbulb in the cookie jar, now are we?
This is a labor union representing public sector employees, not corporations. That is - these are government employees.
What does the legislation do? Only allow the labor unions to negotiate wages. That means no negotiations on retirement pensions, work conditions,
The key difference between the government and corporations is that a corporation can fail (well, governments can, too - but not usually without
considerable social collapse). As a member of the Navy (Reserves) my pay check will be coming from them - whether they decide to print money that
doesn't exist or tax the population into oblivion. This is the same with almost every other government employee. States are a little different, as
they don't have the power to print legal tender - but that hasn't stopped them from spending into a deficit - a substantial part of that being into
the retirement plan of government employees.
And I am one, along with a private sector employee. Retiring active duty (still possible for me - NPSB program) would allow me to draw pension
following retirement at the age of 38. I am just about at my five year mark (from when I enlisted and was enrolled in DEP) and have something like
ten years to make one more rank to E-6 to be eligible for retiring at my 20-year mark. It'd be unusual for that to not happen, in people of my
A little math:
My base-pay as an E-1 was about $1,200 per month. I was only an E-2 for a few weeks and advanced to E-3 when I completed my avionics training - which
was around $1,400/month. I was an E-3 for about a year and a half before I made E-4 and my pay was something like $1,700/month. I started getting
paid for E-5 in January - over $2,000/month. Pay for E-6 is in the range of $2,500 or more - depending upon time in service.
That will change - as it does every year, with adjustments to the pay rates - usually there's a 1-2% raise almost guaranteed.
I've gone about five years with sub- $2K monthly pay from the military (were I active duty - reserves get substantially less). That's a quarter of
the retirement service length. I enlisted at 18, and will - theoretically - be eligible for retirement at 38 and able to draw pension immediately
while still being able to capitalize on benefits that come with retirement (health plans - not just for me but also for my family, commissary/exchange
privileges, etc). The average life-expectancy for someone such as myself is about 80 years - give or take.
That leaves about 40 years of retirement pay - which is 1/2 of the average of my 36 highest months of pay while in service. That will, in all
likelihood, be E-6 base-pay. Presently, that's going to be $3,483 for those with 16+ years (there's another category for 18+ - but it only gets
higher - it'll never go below an average of $3,483). If I can stay in service longer (past 20 years) - I can earn 2.2% additional retirement pay for
each additional year to a maximum of 75% - IE - retiring at 30 years, instead of 20, would net me 75% of my highest-paying 36 months averaged
together, instead of 50% (for retiring at 20). We'll presume I retire at my 20, though.
50% of 3,500 (I'm rounding down the average to an easier-to-handle number - the average of someone retiring as an E-6 with twenty years of service
would be a fair amount higher) is $1,750. That's more than I was getting paid my first three years of service.
Now - I'm just rounding the bend at 40 years - looking at another 40 years receiving pension. The Navy would be paying me more, total, in retirement
than they paid me during my tour. That doesn't even begin to touch the 40 years of benefits (and I'll be more likely to use the medical benefits as
I age rather than now, while I'm a young whipper-snapper).
It'll probably no be as ideal - as I will probably have to put in a few extra years of service because of my time in the Reserves - but for someone
in a similar position as I am on the active duty side - the U.S. tax payer is going to be looking at paying far more on a service member's retirement
than they pay the service member to work.
While some would say: "For our boys who go to war, that's just fine" - I have to say I agree (and not just because I'm in the military). However,
does a state-employed librarian need to be looking at similar retirement benefits? The janitor for the state-maintained highway rest-stops? Highway
patrolmen and conservationists?
Where do you draw the line? How can you draw a line if they can all say: "Fine, we won't go to work unless you give us higher-paying retirement
plans?" ... How can the government authority be at all established if a union can simply come along and overturn legislation passed by our system of
By proxy, a public-sector union essentially forces tax increases for their own gain without due process of law.
It is now clearly evident that the republican party backed by their corporate donors and their unlimited donations, (thanks to the Citizens
United supreme court decision) are actively attempting to completely and permanently eliminate unions within the american workforce.
Not sure how you draw that conclusion from the legislation. Well... actually - reading your post, I'm sure how why you arrived at that conclusion
(you're a few votes short of a law) - but I'm not seeing how it's supported by non-crazy logic.
It is now perfectly clear that they have every intention of restructuring the american working environment into one where the employer enjoys a
dictatorial authority over his employees.
That's what an employer has. A union has no real power or authority over an employer. An employer can fire all striking union members and be
training new people up the next day, and the union can't do squat about it. It's just such a big pain in the ass that employers are often willing
to negotiate with a union when such conflicts arise.
The problem most Americans seem to be facing today is a problem of self-harming stupidity.
The per-capita personal debt in America is $57,000 - the average annual wage is something like $32,000. That's the problem with American personal
financial practices. You're living in debt up to your eyeballs. By time you take out costs of living, you're looking at several years' worth of
debt for the average citizen to pay off if they were to do nothing but cover their basic costs of living.
You're a slave to credit and the need-it-now mentality.
I have enough money in the bank to cover all of my living expenses for some time - even enough to pay off the one loan I do have (and still have
enough for a year or more of living expenses). I intend to keep it that way. Why? Because I can walk away from a job if I need to. I'm 'free'
in that respect. I can quit my job without having to worry about getting nastygrams from bill collectors, where my rent/food is going to come from,
The average person isn't free. They have voluntarily become a slave to their job by taking out lines of credit that require payments up to and
exceeding what they can pay out of their paycheck.
That's why you can even draw the connection between "dictator" and "employer." In every sense of the concept - an employer dictates your job and
responsibilities to you. However, that employer has no authority over your life, or over you. The only reason you'd feel that way is if you feared
being unemployed more than you feared being unfairly worked.
I have no need for a union. The union I have is my bank account. I am working now to build a career and -not- drain that bank account more than
necessary. If things get that bad, I have no problem flipping the bird and walking out the door to find a job where the employers treat people like
Credit/loans are services and tools to be used with careful consideration or in emergencies. The problem is that people confuse "I want it now"
with "I need it now."