Wisconsin shows rest of country the real union thuggery going on in this country

Originally posted by Fangula
I am a Wisconsin State worker (I'm not a teacher, though). A lot of you don't know what's really going on. This is about the bill breaking the unions up, taking our collective bargaining rights away. This means that we, as state workers, do not have a voice in our workplace. This means we could lose vacation days, personal days, sick leave... and there will not be much we can do about it legally. Our unions, as well as the state workers that reside in them, are not thugs. We are standing up for what we believe in just as Scott Walker is. We have freedom of speech, too, you know... and exercising that RIGHT does not make us thugs. Since when does exercising a right make someone a criminal? Feel free to be biased and label those you disagree with as thugs just because they're exercising their rights (and just because you don't like what we're saying), however that does not make our initiative any less valid than yours. Health Insurance going up? Whatever. Breaking up the unions, and then calling us the thugs because we want to have a say in our workplaces? That's not cool, and I am proud of my blue collar comrades for going out there and standing up.

Go ahead and believe what you want, but this is more about breaking up the unions than health insurance. None of my co-workers have complained about the health insurance concept. It's all about the unions. Coming from the inside, I can tell you this is what it is actually about. No thuggery here. If anything, the non-union state employees (administration) will become the thugs if we do not have a union and a voice for collective bargaining.
Not to mention that if he messes with our unions through this bill, he could very well (and wants to) lay of many thousands of workers... people who have put their life into their jobs.

Peace,

Fangula.

Ummm........waaa...effin....waaa.....your really choking me up here with that "cry me a river" crap. So if you lose your collective bargaining rights and some of your player perks, then you'll be just like.....the herd. Oh my god......not the....herd!!!
Welcome to the real world.....skippy...why don't you try your lil violin solo out on some of the "unemployed", see if they don't rip you a new one. MOF, I'm quite certain that if you can't see beyond your selfishness, and your mad desire to be "the last straw that broke the countries back", that one of those unemployed would...gladly...take your job and quite succinctly...forego...unionism altogether.

YouSir......are an....

Originally posted by OLD HIPPY DUDE
Most of these anti-union corporate lackys are young punks between 18 and 30 and have no clue as to what they are talking about because they were not born till unions were already in decline. They have no idea what the pay was for their grandparents and the working conditions at that time. It was the unions that improved the quality of life
for union members and non union members alike by setting the bar for wages.
So to you ungratefull anti-union corporate lackys, when the unions are gone and your boss wants to cut your salary in half to boost the profits, who are you going to cry to ? And remember you too can be replaced by someone younger more ambitious and for less money!

I am aware of the good unions did IN THE PAST. We have laws now.

My great grandfather was killed in the Lutie mine explosion in 1930. yeah. I realize there was some good done.
The biggest reason unions are in decline is they are filled with mafia and socialists.

Originally posted by felonius

The biggest reason unions are in decline is they are filled with mafia and socialists.

DING DING DING!
Winner!

"Collective Bargaining' and piano wire....................

One worker combined vacation and compensatory time to walk away with more than $800,000, records show.

MADISON, Wis. (AP) -- The Madison School District has gone to court to get teachers back to work.

The Wisconsin State Journal reports the district late Friday filed for an injunction that would bar teachers from taking part in any more work stoppages such as teacher demonstrations that have closed schools three days this week.

Schools have been closed in Madison, Milwaukee and other districts around Wisconsin as teachers call in sick to attend protests at the state Capitol over Gov. Scott Walker's budget repair bill. Teachers and other state union workers are upset that Walker wants to curtail their collective bargaining rights.

In its filing, the Madison School District characterizes the work stoppage as an illegal strike. Strikes by teachers are prohibited by state law.....................

Madison School District Files Injunction to Get Teachers Back to Work

No shame in wasting MORE taxpayers money,in their illegal strike. No shame in getting paid to do it also.

Originally posted by Califemme

Originally posted by beansanmash

Well, I hope you like jail because uniting with your peers and demanding a livable wage is against the law, so just put your head down and keep working the system and hope you somehow suddenly gain stupendous skills or talents that grant you the individual bargaining power to rise above your endlessly toiling peers.

1) "Demanding a livable wage is against the law" Are you saying that it's illegal to look for another job?

2) "Working the system" The unions are "working the system" not the taxpaying public. You're asking US for money.

3) "Hope you somehow suddenly gain stupendous skills or talents" It's called busting your ass at at more than one job while going to online or night school. Hell, you can even learn stuff off the internet for free. Hope?!? No thank you, we'd rather have SKILLS.

4) "Stupendous skills or talents that grant you the individual bargaining power to rise above your endlessly toiling peers" Ex. Actly.

I appreciate all your points, and although I wasn't being sarcastic I was painting an intentionally dire picture. That is because political movements don't happen all at once, they happen in stages. Although what the governer of Wisconsin is arguing may make sense with taxpayer money and government jobs, if it is succesful, it could eventually expand beyond unions into the private sector. There is alot of corporate lobbying and political money that would love for people to be unable to use their collective bargaining power to ensure adaquate wages. The picture that I was painting describes a future where minimum wage laws, which are just a form of collective bargaining, have also been made illegal, as more people support the notion that the desires of workers have no role in pure capitalism.

Its also important to acknowledge that I'm not talking about high paying jobs where talent and skill are about as rare as the job openings, I'm talking about the majority of Americans who currently work for a living wage.

In addition, the picture I'm painting is not imaginary, it is very real in many parts of the world where people are not as educated or empowered as Americans to collectively bargain for adaquate wages.

That being said:

1) yes, of course you can go find another job, however, with no collective bargaining rights for workers, your ability to obtain a new job would be based not just on your skills but your willingness to work for less than your competition. Remember I am talking about jobs where adaquately skilled workers outnumber the job openings.

2) Maybe unions are working the system, however the way to address this is to tackle the specific regulations that allow them to work the system, rather than directly taking away the collective bargaining rights of people. Laws that target such broad ideas are often politically motivated and are meant to have farther reaching consequences rather than just correct one isolated incident.

3) Just because one person is able to improve their situation, there will always be people who remain in the same place and need their rights to be fought for.

4) I like to envision a world where not just the exceptional few succeed, but everyone is allowed a fulfilling life.

Originally posted by sonnny1
No shame here. Im calling it for what it is.Entitlement. Just as bad as Congress and Obama forcing a health care bill down our throats,but want the Cadillac Premium Health care for themselves. Looks like ALL those who work under the Government umbrella are just as bad.

Ah, good idea to make an umbrella statement like that. Generalize everything, just like the news you've been watching. We're all bad people, got it.

Im not Jealous,Im sick of it. "We the People" are sick of it.

Right. I see, so what you're saying is that State workers aren't part of "We The People". It's "taxpayers vs. union state workers," huh? So let me get this straight... did you forget to think that We The Union State Employees also pay the same taxes that you do? That we are also "We The People"?

And about the kids? Those teachers can care less,as long as they have vacation and sick days to protest,while children go un educated. And lets not talk about the standards of children and education today......Please.

Speaking of being under an umbrella, do all you "We The People" people (who we, the union state employees are supposedly not a part of, according to you) under the "We The People" umbrella really think that teachers don't care about education? You've really lost your mind. Many of them have dedicated their lives to it. And how is breaking up the union going to increase the standards of education? Thought I'd ask that, too, since you decided to inject that into this debate.

reply to post by pajoly


thank you!!!!!

Clearly, both sides have legitimate points.

The union model needs revision, BUT...not busting.

The Wisconsin workers have agreed to all economic requests from the Governor and the Republican representatives in the bill. What they are not willing to give is their collective bargaining rights.

As an American from the banking side of this financial debacle. Pretty much across the line, because of quantitative easing, their pensions are worth about a third less than they were worth three years ago and I am being generous.

I just bought my groceries and noticed the traded commodities went up another 10% here in Los Angeles and that's at a food discount store called "Trader Joe's". I also bought gas, a traded commodity up over 7% here.

So, what is at stake here is not money, the Union worker's gave all that up. What is at stake here is, can worker's organize within big business and big government?

You tell me.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Nope, not the facts.

This is from the same blog that you got your facts from.

Only difference, this is from when Walker wasn't Governor, yet.

Todd A. Berry: The $2.7 billion state deficit no one told you about.
Posted: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:45 am

According to its just-released financial statements,
state government closed its 2008-09 books with a $2.71 billion deficit in its general fund.

True, this year’s deficit is the largest ever reported.

But it is the fifth consecutive year that the GAAP shortfall exceeded $2 billion
and the ninth that it has topped $1 billion.

We have not had a recession every year since the late 1990s. This recession didn’t really get under way until early 2008.

So, unless we closed that $2.71 Billion gap in the last 12 months, it still remains.

There's plenty more interesting reading here. host.madison.com

Enjoy.

Originally posted by Fangula

Ah, good idea to make an umbrella statement like that. Generalize everything, just like the news you've been watching. We're all bad people, got it.

Never said you were all bad people. Some are Delusional,yes,but not bad. Its not an Umbrella statement. If you work for the state,you ARE working for the Government,getting the Perks that go along with it,just like those who work at the top of the Government food chain. Thought you knew.

Originally posted by Fangula
Right. I see, so what you're saying is that State workers aren't part of "We The People". It's "taxpayers vs. union state workers," huh? So let me get this straight... did you forget to think that We The Union State Employees also pay the same taxes that you do? That we are also "We The People"?

Never said that you wernt paying taxes,im saying those who work for the State,and I believe Government sector Unions,are just to blame for the deficits we face as a State and Nation. Those Unions are part of the problem also. "Let them(those who arnt entitled") eat cake,right? Thats what I get from it.

Originally posted by Fangula
Speaking of being under an umbrella, do all you "We The People" people (who we, the union state employees are supposedly not a part of, according to you) under the "We The People" umbrella really think that teachers don't care about education? You've really lost your mind. Many of them have dedicated their lives to it. And how is breaking up the union going to increase the standards of education? Thought I'd ask that, too, since you decided to inject that into this debate.

Again,you are putting words into my mouth."We the People" are those Americans who are fed up with entitlements.I do remember this last election,and all those who were voted out,because people were fed up.Forgot about that? If you care to cross the line,and stand with us,I salute you. If you think your entitled to Big Pensions,Cadillac Health care,Bonuses, accrued vacation days,sick days,etc,then stay were your at,and keep protesting about how the man is sticking it to you.Ironic,to say the least. About teachers? Heres what I know about them,since you want to play the "poor me and my Union brothers" card.....

In its filing, the Madison School District characterizes the work stoppage as an illegal strike. Strikes by teachers are prohibited by state law.

Madison School District Files Injunction to Get Teachers Back to Work

Yes,they do care.........about themselves.

How do you all think big businesses and big banks and big government gets big?

What kind of manpower does it require and where do they get it from?

What level of skill and education is required at every level of the Org Chart and who pays for it?

And where do these ephemeral CEO's come from that are worthy of $200,000,000 bonuses or more?

BUT MOST IMPORTANT...

How much money do the people (the families) need to keep producing people to keep big business big and big banks big and big government big? By that I mean, to motivate all of us to raise our children to go to school, keep them healthy and going to college or industrial schools (which are just as expensive as college) just to keep big everything big?

How big is big enough for you too get really p*ssed when you see other people, in front of God and everybody, with no guile whatsoever, now so sure of themselves that they can just do it blatantly on television, with an affirming by a Governor of a US state saying, "...why, yes, they are lucky unions are legal in Wisconsin." Yes, ATSer's, in the United States of America, Governor Walker said on MSNBC to night that the Unions were lucky they had not been outlawed.

The Wisconsin court overturned the suit to restrain the teacher's right to protest. Civil rights in action, thank you God! The democratic caucus had to flee the state to protect the right to organize within big business, big banks and big government.

Matrix anyone?

Contracts made must be honored but I do feel that collective bargaining at this stage when government employees are making more than the private sector on average (esp in total benefits) is counter productive to the way a state or nation runs its business. Unions have their genesis during the time when capital took advantage of labor and abused men and women in sweat shops for mere pennies. The government is not a sweat shop...altho I have heard stories. Can you imagine if our soldiers demanded to be represented in a union...complaining that they were underpaid compared to mercs and wanted overtime in addition to their combat pay? Soldiers and others should have advocates that make sure that their health care benefits are on the up and up but unionization would be ridiculous....but no one bats an eye when the city workers union want to go on strike. If you dont like the money offered by the state then you dont have to take the job. I say no to unions for public employees. But at the same time a deal is a deal and they cant go back on their contracts unless they go bankrupt first (altho that is leverage to "renegotiate"). Just my 2cents worth.

Originally posted by exile1981
Actually the teachers make 48K average wage according to there own website and have had increases each year since 2006 that are above the cost of living index.

The real issue is that they spend twice as much on education as the education taxes bring in. Half of all the "education" staff are teachers the rest are support staff.

My wife is a teacher and makes right around 48K. She teaches children from other countries to speak english and pass the wonderful MCAS standards of Mass 16 different languages right now, She has dual Masters and is working on her Doctorate. We are working white middle class so we had to pay for it all. $30k a year for classes, figure it out. She "has" to pay $200 a week into her pension, her medical is $180 a week and a joke, no dental or vision. We are on my insurance.Yes if she puts in 30 years she can make about 70% of her salary but you show me anyone with a Doctorate that would work for that pay. Hell if she got that degree in business she would be making 100k+. She is getting a 1% raise next year, no raise the following and a 2% raise the third, if you follow inflation she will be loosing money every year.As far as Unions well, I like holidays, weekends, a 40 hr work week, a wage where I can at least afford groceries, for now and a safe work enviroment all of which would not be if it wasnt for the Unions. Dont fool yourself, we would all be like the poor slobs in China working a 60hr work week for $300 a month if it wasnt for the unions.Fortunatly the Chinese are starting to realize this and are starting to form Unions.

reply to post by apacheman


That is not true.

This is from the same blog that put your "documented proof" up.
Only difference, this is from when Walker wasn't Governor, yet.

Todd A. Berry: The $2.7 billion state deficit no one told you about.
Posted: Thursday, December 31, 2009 4:45 am

According to its just-released financial statements, state government closed its 2008-09 books with a $2.71 billion deficit in its general fund.
True, this year’s deficit is the largest ever reported.

But it is the fifth consecutive year that the GAAP shortfall exceeded $2 billion and the
ninth that it has topped $1 billion.
We have not had a recession every year since the late 1990s. This recession didn’t really get under way until early 2008.

host.madison.com

And if you care, here is a post with other references to the budget surplus baloney.
my other post

Ten percent work in unions. How are we able to not live in squalor us non union folks? Sounds like your wife chose the profession she's at and likes or she could go make 100K like you say. I don't see what your howling about. Fact is in the open marketplace you can be compensated for your individual talent and not have to drag the underachievers along with you. That is why unions are socialist. Spread the wealth. No thank you I'll achieve my own wealth and not force taxpayers to provide wealth for me.

Clinton had a surplus on paper too.

Originally posted by exile1981

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
Well, when my employer started to treat us in an unfair manner, we organised and joined a union. That has protected us against a large range of management-generated bravo sierra. And please, let's not forget that a collective agreement is a set of rules arrived at and approved by both parties!

Actually a collective bargain is not both sides, it's what the employeer finally gives into rather than have his business shut down by the union wthrough vandalism, walk outs, deliberate sabotage etc. As the Canadian postal union weeny said during there last strike , we indend to make it so costly for them that they have to give into all our demands

A) CUPW is not the standard to which Candian unions strive.
B) I have been on the negotiating team for a large collective agreement. Have you?

I'd say I have a better hunch.

reply to post by Camperguy

She has dual Masters and is working on her Doctorate.
We are working white middle class
so we had to pay for it all. $30k a year for classes, figure it out.

Is attaining a Doctorate a requirement of her job?

reply to post by CosmicCitizen


I totally disagree with your assumption for the following reason; I agree that unions were originally formed out of the need to protect workers from abuse by capitol, or private employers. I also agree that, under normal circumstances, public sector employees would not be subjected to the same kind of abuse. (Please don't misinterpret where I'm going with this as I would never advocate that public sector employees be denied the right to organize and bargain collectively for wages, benefits & working conditions.)

Now, especially in our current political environment, where the Supreme Court has ruled that corporations can pump unlimited amounts of money to political campaigns, is there really any distinction between government and capitol? I mean really, is there? It would seem to me that they have become one in the same, fundamentally removing the cornerstone of your argument and now more than ever, would be the time to insure the public sector employee's right to collective bargaining in all it's glory.

IMO, it's more than probable that the real reason for the enormous unfunded liabilities being realized by benefit trust funds, both public and private, is due to mismanagement and here's how it happened.

I spent 10yrs., prior to my retirement, as one of 8 labor trustees on the board of my union's multi-employer benefit trust funds and our trustees were encouraged to annually attend a week long conference where we attended educational classes on investment strategies and current law. At those conferences which usually had some 15,000 trustees from trust funds across the nation in attendance, I was always dumfounded by how high a benchmark many of these funds had for their investments and actuarial calculations, some were as high as 15%. Don't get me wrong, those were some good years and it was not uncommon to earn 15%, but to use that rate for the purpose of making actuarial calculations regarding future returns and liabilities is insane. My trust funds had a investment benchmark of 6% and it's quite healthy today with assets in excess of $500 million.

But then, that's just my opinion.

reply to post by HoldTheBeans


no, this is ridiculous. teachers have an average salary of 46k. this cut is taking 5k off of that, and taking some benefits. benefits make up for the little pay, but decreasing pay AND benefits? some just can't live off that. the poster doesn't seem to realize that these teachers are trying to raise families, and a 5k gap in a personal budget? not easy to make up for. even though 46k is the average, 25k is the starting. drop that to 20k and whos going to want to be a teacher? definitely not the smartest out there. they can get better paying jobs with a bachelors degree

On top of that, in the state of wisconsin it is illegal for teachers to strike. what's ridiculous is he's trying to eliminate the union to, giving them no bargaining power. if a state worker calls in sick for three days in a row he can fire all of them declare state of emergency and rehire into those jobs. which will be happily filled by scabs in this economy.

People need to realize this is going to effect the already suffering education rates, in a time where we need education more than anything. dropping teachers salaries wonb't improve education quality. this wackjob in office has no college degree, and has no hope of returning to office. What's happening is ridiculous, he's forcing state workers to a lower salary

my emphasis is on education, where this blow will be felt the most. as a student in wisconsin, i'd like to say i know what's going on. Absolutey Ridiculous