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Wisconsin shows rest of country the real union thuggery going on in this country

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posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by Flatfish
 



The repubs didn't run away when they were out numbered last session and the dems refused to even listen to them. This just makes them look like little children.

edit on 17-2-2011 by joyride0187 because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 02:36 PM
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This is too funny. Dems run outta town because they don't get their way and run to mommy. Yeah next election will be fun watching them try and spin this one.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 02:38 PM
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Originally posted by joyride0187
reply to post by Flatfish
 



The repubs didn't run away when they were out numbered last session and the dems refused to even listen to them. This just makes them look like little children.

edit on 17-2-2011 by joyride0187 because: (no reason given)


They should all be stripped of their seats. They're not elected to represent the unions.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by joyride0187
reply to post by Flatfish
 


Running like chickens out of the city so there can't be a quorum is abandonment and dereliction of duty.


No, it is solidarity with the people who elected them. The sort of solidarity shown by Lech Walesa and the Solidadarnosc shipyard union that brought down the dictatorship in Poland and the sort shown by the West Virginia "redneck" antecedents to the United Mine Workers of America at the Battle of Matewan in WV in May, 1920.
It is the solidarity that strikes abject fear in the hearts of the owning class, because it suddenly gives power to the powerless.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 02:52 PM
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reply to post by HoldTheBeans
 


They are phoning it in.

Yeah, we left but i won't say where.

The current bill is tearing the state apart.

Nice try. The bill is pulling power away from the unions.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by 4nsicphd
 


Unions historical rationale is to protect workers from exploitation by unscrupulous employers that don't follow the law or eschew basic workplace safety standards. That's not so much of an issue when the state is the employer, unless you believe that governments are unscrupulous employers that dramatically underpay their workforces in comparison to the private sector.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 03:15 PM
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reply to post by HoldTheBeans
 

Governments are not immune to having unscrupulous people in management positions. And management will protect itself. Workplace wages are not the be-all of employment. A little workplace dignity and pride is also important. Let's face it. The middle class is dangerous to the owner class. The middle class wants "stuff", including the earnings to get that stuff and the workplace respect they think they deserve. The middle class tends to get "uppity." Better to keep them totally subserviant on what you decide to trickle down to them. Part of that is to take away their right to negotiate as a bargaining unit.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by 4nsicphd
 


Here's why I have a problem with this:


By ending state employees' ability to negotiate for their pensions and insurance rates, the governor will be able to increase employee pension contributions to 5.8 percent of salary and more than double their health insurance contributions.

Currently most state employees pay nothing toward their pensions and only a modest amount for their insurance. Walker said those increases alone would save the state $30 million this fiscal year and ten times that much going forward. He also said the change would allow him to avoid employee furloughs and layoffs. Walker said he would likely have had to fire 1,500 people and cut about 200,000 children off Medicaid to make up the difference.


Collective bargaining for wages is not off the table for these folks. And believe me, there are plenty of us hard-working non-union folks out here who feel zero sympathy towards these folks who pay nothing and get very large pensions in return. I don't have a pension. I have my retirement account that I contribute to and my employer matches a percentage of that. That's it.

Why do these people feel they deserve a handout simply because their union bought and paid for those democratic seats in the state legislature? Tell me why don't they feel that they need to contibute like most of us non-union workers?



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by 4nsicphd
reply to post by HoldTheBeans
 

Governments are not immune to having unscrupulous people in management positions. And management will protect itself. Workplace wages are not the be-all of employment. A little workplace dignity and pride is also important. Let's face it. The middle class is dangerous to the owner class. The middle class wants "stuff", including the earnings to get that stuff and the workplace respect they think they deserve. The middle class tends to get "uppity." Better to keep them totally subserviant on what you decide to trickle down to them. Part of that is to take away their right to negotiate as a bargaining unit.


I didn't say they weren't but comparing them to coal miners back in the day who paid their employees only in funds that could be spent at the local company store is a far cry from where we are today. There are so many employee laws in place that unscrupulous actions among management is not tolerated due to law suits and in state run unions it is far less of a concern. So much so these teachers call in sick and stand there on TV protesting not one bit in fear of any ramifications from their bosses.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 03:52 PM
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reply to post by Freenrgy2
 


Didn't Walker enter office with a surplus and didn't he blow it on corporate tax breaks?

If that's the case,why not close the tax breaks down, since they obviously didn't pay for themselves with higher economic activity.

That seems to be a common failing among business types: they demand guarantees (welfare) to make an attempt to do something positive in the economy, then renege, blaming worker shortages, lack of skills, etc...anything but their own indifference to hard work and their lack of intellect beyond seeing to their own coffers, but they keep the tax break and demand yet more guarantees and breaks each budget cycle.

The problem here isn't lazy, incompetent workers, it's lazy, incompetent business types.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 03:56 PM
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reply to post by Freenrgy2
 

Yeah, it comes down to power again. The owner class think that anything the laborer gets is, as you used the term, a "handout." The Rethuglican gov and Senate have the power to crush the unions, and only true solidarity and resistance will halt that. And I will do what I can to help. My company has a crew domicile at MKE, which is Mitchell Field, in Milwaukee. The day that bill gets signed, all Wisconsin employees are terminated or relocated, at their option. WI can do without the sales taxes, income taxes and property taxes that 46 very high paid professional employees earn. That actually was an idea from the ALPA and Machinists Union reps. I'm sure the employees would rather go to domicilesat DAB, IAH, or TUS, where they won't have to shovel 10 feet of snow each winter.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 06:19 PM
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Actually the teachers make 48K average wage according to there own website and have had increases each year since 2006 that are above the cost of living index.

The real issue is that they spend twice as much on education as the education taxes bring in. Half of all the "education" staff are teachers the rest are support staff.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 07:01 PM
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Been watching this for two days and there are no victims . They are being asked to pay , not the same , but still less than workers private industry do for pensions and benefits and they absolutely refuse to pay what 80% of the country pays . Not all of them because several interviewed said that they knew the recession was on and the state was broke and wouldn't mind paying what everyone else does to save their jobs and jobs of others but the unions won't allow it . A union rep was interviewed , and what a great rep that doesn't care about the folks with the least seniority , over 1,000 that will lose their jobs . It was pointed out that if they agree to pay what everyone else has to then no one will lose their job . He's fine with job loses because they aren't going to pay like 80% in private industry do . The tax payers are paying for their benefits and pension plans and those tax payers are in private industry paying for their own benefits and pensions plus the benefits and pension of state workers . Great deal if you can get full benefits and a pension plan and someone else get to pay for it . Doesn't matter about any greedy banker or anyone else . Many states are broke and going under and that's now with at least 18 million from private industry who have lost their jobs and 50% of the whole country on some form of social assistance . Everyone is taking huge hit except government employees and they believe that just because they haven't lost a thing there is no recession . 6% for benefits and pensions is all that's asked and the answer from the union is no chance and go ahead and lay off a thousand or more because we don't care about the more junior members as long as we get ours .



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by Freenrgy2
And believe me, there are plenty of us hard-working non-union folks out here who feel zero sympathy towards these folks who pay nothing and get very large pensions in return. I don't have a pension. I have my retirement account that I contribute to and my employer matches a percentage of that. That's it.
Tell me why don't they feel that they need to contibute like most of us non-union workers?


Pensions and benefits are deferred wages...as in "We won't give you the raise you want, but we'll give you this instead." Let's not forget that the employer thought it was a pretty good deal when they signed the agreement...an agreement negotiated between the two parties in good faith!



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by Flatfish
reply to post by HoldTheBeans
 


I know this is hard on you, but if you spend some time going over the document contained within the article, you will see that the numbers don't lie.

edit on 17-2-2011 by Flatfish because: (no reason given)


Flatfish buddy; I'm giving credit to your assertions because we've had our discussions in the past and came to understanding.
BUT EVERY FREAKIN' SET OF GOVERNMENT NUMBERS ARE MANIPULATIONS IN ACCOUNTING IF NOT OUTRIGHT LIES. Asking for a bit of contribution toward retirement and pegging raises to the cpi without a public referendum first is hardly the death of "the union" in general.

Our last Governor "Doyle" "balanced" the state budget by illegitamately accessing the
(locked box!) highway funds built up through fuel taxes

edit on 17-2-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-2-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)

edit on 17-2-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 08:16 PM
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I see more corporate and political thuggery everyday more so than any union thuggery.
Republicans= weak and watered down ideas and complete Bs from top on down.
Proof= Palin. Lolz.
Those Bad Unions how dare they try too even up the work place for the under paid.
LOlzzzzzz.
The rich crying about folks getting a fair wage is just so.............. Republican!




posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 08:19 PM
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Originally posted by 4nsicphd
reply to post by Freenrgy2
 

Yeah, it comes down to power again. The owner class think that anything the laborer gets is, as you used the term, a "handout." The Rethuglican gov and Senate have the power to crush the unions, and only true solidarity and resistance will halt that. And I will do what I can to help. My company has a crew domicile at MKE, which is Mitchell Field, in Milwaukee. The day that bill gets signed, all Wisconsin employees are terminated or relocated, at their option. WI can do without the sales taxes, income taxes and property taxes that 46 very high paid professional employees earn. That actually was an idea from the ALPA and Machinists Union reps. I'm sure the employees would rather go to domicilesat DAB, IAH, or TUS, where they won't have to shovel 10 feet of snow each winter.

We are one of the most highly taxed states plentyof corps have left us hanging thx.. So where's it going?To road salt and repairs? badger damage?
edit on 17-2-2011 by 46ACE because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by pajoly
reply to post by HoldTheBeans
 


So I can tell what network you watch, which clearly explains your ignorance. The unions (and lots of other people including many in the private sector) are up in arms not so much about the new contributions, but by the bald union-busting going on where the bill kills their rights to collectively bargain (something that will likely be killed even in this hard right Supreme Court). On top of that, it was completely sprung without warning and jammed through in five days, which is 1000% contrary to how the Wisconsin budget process really works.

Three, the crisis is 100% a LIE by the slimy gov. There IS NO deficit in WI, at least their was not until he came to office. Their own in state GAO showed a $52M surplus when he came in office, but his first three acts have added a few hundred million in state deficit (calculted over the next three years). In other words, HE CREATED THE DEFICIT ALL BY HIMSELF.

Four, and mybe the most cynical and rankly foul part of this? He is NOT mandating these same requirements on the police and fire unions. Why? because those were the only unions that supported his candidacy. In other words, it is TOTAL ABJECT punishment and pay-to-play.

Of course, people like you don't know these facts because you are a FOX News watcher and that makes you a minion ripe for manipulation. You are being played.

The man is a coward, a liar and a cheat and he'll be recalled from office, just watch.


Your obviously a socialist. Please go to the "workers paradise" of Russia. The proletariat misses you.

Collective bargaining is crap. Merit pay is fine.

For example, you have a 20year teacher that sucks to high heaven getting paid the same as a 10 year teacher that has amazing skills and actually TEACHES. The 10 year should make a good wage while the 20 should either step up or get canned.

All are not equal and therefore should NOT earn the same pay.

BTW, the whole freakin country is in a financial crap hole. Lets say that Wisconsin isnt in bad shape for the sake of argument. What is wrong with cutting fat where possible to PREVENT a financial meltdown?
Those teachers might just keep their jobs altogether AND the benny's they would loose if they have teacher cuts.

God I hate socialists.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 09:48 PM
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The thing is, and what we need to look for, is that there is a high probability the state stole their pensions. Just like Florida did and New Jersey did and probably a lot of other states. Secured pensions, in many cases. Pensions that the people paid into and the states took and used and then couldn't put back. Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Then they eviscerate the unions. And these are among the few unions left. Then people get work longer hours for peanuts and the prices of food, housing, utilities, and gas continue to climb and live in fear of losing their jobs and be grateful they still have them. Again, these are pensions people worked decades for, and these people are now being told, as many in the corporate world have already been told for about 20 years now, they are to get a "new" kind of pension (oooOooo a 401K!), and then the market will lay claim to and steal that too. New employees to start out that way, old employees to be determined. Uh huh. Like I said, a systematic destruction of the working and middle class.



posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 10:06 PM
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Reading this thread one can see that a division of the people,and by the people, for tptb has been accomplished.If we could put the left and right signs down for a minute and read between the lines we might see that there is plenty of blame on both sides to go around. Unions were a very strong source for the American worker in there early years. They did a wonderful job in helping to build this country.But just as our goverment, they have been taken over in a game of I'll scratch your back if you'll do me. Buying and selling votes for favors. Same can be said of most of our politicians, yet we will fight each other instead of them. As for backing out of there deal with the unions,that is no way to run a goverment. You are afforded other legal ways of reaching what needs to be done and threating peaceful demonstration with the national gaurd is borderline treason. Everyone has the right to the polictical beliefs butuntil we go back to being Americans first instead of Democrats and Republicans first we have no hope of changing anything.



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