No joke - US "moderate Muslim" man beheads wife: The Mo Hussan trial.

reply to post by Maslo

Even if we accept that actual real crime rate is lower in muslim countries (but thats heavily disputed, since reported crime rate is obviously a function of real crime rate AND willingness to report crimes, quality of PD work, corruption etc.. you cannot derive real crime rates only from reported crime rates if other variables it depends on differ considerably), it wont contradict my point at all, my point is about cultural support, not actual prevalence of murders.

That is heavily disputed? How? All the evidence present indicates that this is the case. Bring evidence, true evidence, that suggests otherwise. You have no evidence that Muslims offer cultural support for this sort of behaviour outside of your heavily biased set of statistics about Muslims' opinions. Within Islam you've got Sunnis and Shi'as, not to mention many other branches of Islam. Within the entire population of Muslims, you have a spectrum of educated, uneducated and illiterate individuals. You simply cannot interview less than 1% of the entire Muslim population, providing no details of the sample population or any information about the diversity of this population, and attempt to generalise those findings over the entire population.

And since it is not a crime to kill women engaging in adultery in these countries, and honour killings are also practically legal there, they wont even make it into the reported crime statistics most of the time.

It most certainly is a crime in these countries, honour killings are not practically legal.

Yes, I claim that muslim culture (at least in Egypt, Jordan, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nigeria..) supports the murder of women for trivial "crimes" such as adultery, and supports honour killings.

Have you ever lived in any of these countries? What evidence do you have at all - and no, the biased statistics you posted before do not suffice as evidence. Your claims are based on research that clearly only approaches those whose responses will support the researchers' agenda. How can you personally make these claims without even discussing the issue with Muslims in person?

The majority of Muslims would not condone honour killings, only a minute number of villagers living in the most remote locations and the severely uneducated do. Yes, obviously some do - but as aforementioned, these are the most uneducated and remote Muslims around.

How does the fact that these things happen in all countries dispute my point? I just dont see the connection. Prevalence is absolutely irrelevant, reaction of the majority in the society is. Even if we take it ad absurdum - if in the western world there were for example 100 women killed every month for adultery by jealous husbands (acting alone), but almost all other members of the society would be shocked by it when they hear about the killing and and condemned it, and in the muslim world there were 50 women killed for adultery every month, but this was praised and done with the support of the majority and local leaders, are you honestly going to claim that their culture is not worse? The number of killings does not matter, only cultural opinion does, when one talks about culture.

This is not the case though. The majority of Muslims are just as shocked by these crimes, they do not praise murderers. Only lunatics and the deluded praise murderers. Do you really think the entire Muslim world are a bunch of savages living in the desert, forming lynch mobs and pulling people from their houses to stone them? Yes, this happens in some messed up places - but you really have the wrong idea if you think people do this in more civilised areas.

Because we have official opinion polls from Pew Research Center (The Pew Global Attitudes Project) saying the thing, and that is a very reliable source.

Please, if they honestly think they can state that '82% of Pakistanis think this' as a fact, without even mentioning their sample size, then they are hardly a reliable source. Have they interviewed even 1% of the Pakistani population? 1% of the Egyptian population? No, it doesn't appear that they have. They probably only asked villagers, avoiding anywhere a bit more civilised like Karachi, Islamabad or Cairo where perspectives will vary.

reply to post by arollingstone

Please, if they honestly think they can state that '82% of Pakistanis think this' as a fact, without even mentioning their sample size, then they are hardly a reliable source. Have they interviewed even 1% of the Pakistani population? 1% of the Egyptian population? No, it doesn't appear that they have. They probably only asked villagers, avoiding anywhere a bit more civilised like Karachi, Islamabad or Cairo where perspectives will vary.

But it is all mentioned right next to the title - there is a detailed PDF with complete report.

pewglobal.org...

They do not need to interview 1 % of population to get reliable results, that is absurd. Hundreds to thousands of respondents is enough to get reliable statistics, if the sample is accurate. Please provide evidence that the results are untrue, I would be glad to be proven wrong in this.

reply to post by Maslo


Now I don't have an advanced level of knowledge about statistics but I studied it a few years back, I'm basing this more on my own level common sense.

Egypt alone has a population of around 83 000 000 people, Pakistan's reaches roughly 170 000 000 - these are only two of the countries mentioned. This entire sample contained slightly less than 25 000 people in 2010, to think it is possible to apply these findings to the entire population of every country involved is pretty bold, the samples aren't large enough (I can't find where the figures for the number of people of each level of education are and cannot disprove bias, please let me know if you've found this).

There were only 1000 people questioned per country, with 2000 in Pakistan (this is 0.0012% of the population i.e. 1/85 000). Assuming that this can truly be representative of a % of ALL Pakistanis' views is a speculative assumption. It's ok to say 82% of those sampled believe something, and this is true. However, one cannot go on to state that '82% of ALL Pakistanis believe this' - this is a misleading statement, one that seems to me as if it is used to reinforce what they initially intended to present.

One does not need to disprove claims that are not substantiated by solid evidence or fact, it is the other way around. It's not that the results themselves aren't true, but you cannot objectively generalise them over entire populations. Anyway, my views are based on my own experiences - I've met and known many Muslims, living in a Muslim country for most of my life (as well as those I've met abroad). And these people have been from all of those countries mentioned, from all sorts of backgrounds, yet I have never personally known someone that I feel would advocate any of what you have claimed they would. Hence, I personally find it unfair to state that x% of all a certain race would act in y manner, since there is NOT concrete evidence to prove it. The burden of proof is on you, but its impossible to prove and therefore should not objectively be stated.

reply to post by arollingstone



No, the evidence is rock solid. If you studied statistics, you must know that interviewing two thousand respondents gets you very accurate results even in a country of hundreds of millions of people. This is basic statistical fact, not something to argue about. The margin of error in Pakistans case is 3%:

Pakistan 2,000 ±3.0 April 13 – April 28 Face-to-face Disproportionately urban

The only alternative explanation is that the sample was heavily biased towards extremists without it being mentioned, basically an intentionaly falsified survey. There is no evidence to support this assertion, tough, and Pew Global is a very respected source. So the burden of proof is on you.

You provided only anecdotal evidence.

reply to post by Maslo


Dude, how do you not understand this? I don't have to prove anything - you're the one making the claim. It is up to the researchers to prove that they did not at all bias their sample. And yes, results may be accuracte - if in fact they are gathered in a proper manner, but I just don't see this. To attempt to state that 82% of all Pakistanis would commit or condone honour killing is absolutely disgusting imo, total nonsense.

reply to post by arollingstone

To attempt to state that 82% of all Pakistanis would commit or condone honour killing is absolutely disgusting imo, total nonsense.

I have put the words "pakistani muslim forum" in google, clicked the first link, and clicked on the first thread in the forum. Here is one of the posts:

Its interesting and I would say very touchy as well as most recent of the discussions. While most of us advocate the moderate nature of Islam, there are however, certain very clear messages which are very loud and clear in Islam.

- Murder for murder, hand cutting of thief, stoning for Zina.
- Message to non Muslim states send was "1. Accept Islam, Or 2. Pay tax and become part of Islamic State OR3. Get ready to fight war.
- There are some inherent clear strict rules of the life about which there is no flexibility like Haram and Hallal, etc.

Having said that I would strongly advocate that Islam still remains to be moderate in nature.

www.forumpakistan.com...

Majority of Pakistani muslims, and muslims in the middle east as a whole, are violent brainwashed extremists. You just dont want to see reality as it is.

reply to post by arollingstone

Dude, how do you not understand this? I don't have to prove anything - you're the one making the claim.

Read the PDF, the sample used is described there in detail:

Country: Pakistan
Sample design: Multi-stage cluster sample of all four provinces stratified by province (the FATA/FANA areas, Azad Jammu and Kashmir were excluded for security reasons as were areas of instability in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa [formerly the North-West Frontier Province] and Baluchistan – roughly 16% of the population) with disproportional sampling of the urban population
Mode: Face-to-face adults 18 plus
Languages: Urdu, Punjabi, Pashto, Sindhi, Saraiki, Balochi, Hindko
Fieldwork dates: April 13 – April 28, 2010
Sample size: 2,000
Margin of Error: ±3.0 percentage points
Representative: Disproportionately urban, (the sample is 55% urban, Pakistan’s population is 33% urban). Sample covers roughly 84% of the adult population.

I have provided a survey from respected institution, what more evidence do you want? You have provided nothing but wishful thinking to support your claims.

reply to post by Maslo


Or rather, I treat human beings as human beings. Perhaps I am finding it increasingly difficult to relate to those who base their own opinions and morality entirely on those embedded into their cultures, no matter what culture they are indoctrinated into. I would ideally like to believe that most people in the world are good and compassionate, despite a general acceptance of ignorance.

Of course, every region has those with a more limited understanding of one another and the true form of human nature but to claim that the majority of a nationality would advocate any sort of murder, for whatever cultural reasons, doesn't fly with me. To deny this is to deny their humanity and does not serve any decent purpose. I appreciate that the survey does reinforce your claim, but it is not objective truth as reflective of the entire population - this is all I am getting at.

Maybe it is that I don't want to believe it, perhaps all the Muslims I've met in my life are anomalies and constitute the remaining 18% or whatever. However, like I've stated in other threads, whilst I fully appreciate empirical evidence and logic - I base much of what I 'know' on my own personal experiences, for I cannot take anything else for granted. In Arab culture, violence against women for any reason is extremely frowned upon, in the same way it is in the West - I know this because I am of Arab origin therefore have a strong understanding of the culture. No matter what cultural trends any non-Arab says they've discovered through some survey, I will know if they are inaccurate. This is also true of Pakistani culture, from those who I have met - these same people are very quick to state that this behaviour only occurs in the most underdeveloped regions of the country and they are ashamed of these blemishes on their national reputation. I truly believe that this honour killing business is more prevalent in the more uneducated and impoverished rural villages. We shall agree to disagree if you'd like.

Edit: There still are not any figures relating to how many people were sampled from each level of education. Those sampled in urban areas could still have origins in rural areas, they could be illiterate, they could be known extremists. Once again, this is not evidence that 82% of ALL Pakistanis believe something, only that 82% of those questioned believed it.

reply to post by arollingstone


It may be possible, even probable, that those with higher education are not as extremist. But educated people are quite rare in these countries, so the survey results may be accurate even then. Also, I think religion is capable of brainwashing even educated people. Surveys from muslims living in the west show considerable less support for extremism.

Trust me, I would be glad to be proven wrong, but the facts are clear. Substantial portion, often majority, of muslims in their home countries are violent brainwashed extremists. You can read some muslim forums on the internet, if you dont believe it. I had trouble to believe it, too. Unfortunately, the notion of extremist minority and peaceful majority is a lie.

Many people might primarily define this man as being a Muslim - I'd primarily define him as bad. You can murder in the name of your country; or religion; or beliefs, but what's in a name? He acted in an evil way - him specifically.

Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by arollingstone

 

Trust me, I would be glad to be proven wrong, but the facts are clear. Substantial portion, often majority, of muslims in their home countries are violent brainwashed extremists. You can read some muslim forums on the internet, if you dont believe it. I had trouble to believe it, too. Unfortunately, the notion of extremist minority and peaceful majority is a lie.

What facts? No universally applicable facts are clear from one single survey of 25 000 people - only noticeable trends. A substantial portion, yes, a vast majority? No. Find me a survey that samples 1 billion Muslims and you've got a fact, I won't argue. The notion of extremist minority and peaceful majority is the truth, brother. The notion of a violent majority is the true lie.

It's not a matter of having trouble believing it, I know about Muslim culture firsthand. You can pick and choose forums, but how about the ones where Muslim scholars actually debate issues and clearly are open-minded and modernised with regards to these topics? Anyone who condones murder is a terrible and confused person, I disagree with the claim that 82% of Pakistanis are brainwashed, terrible people - that isn't fair.

Like I say, we can agree to disagree if you'd like - we're just going round in circles on this one. I know your stance, you know mine - let everyone else make up their own minds. It's not a matter of cultural advocacy, this guy was living in a country whose mainstream culture shuns this sort of behaviour - he still did it, this did not deter him. He's just a bad guy, an extremely stupid man - whatever his religion or nationality happens to be. To jump on this piece of news and use this event to slag off all Muslim countries is ignorant.