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Rape in the US military.... Those left behind strike back

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posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by Stop-loss!

Originally posted by namine
reply to post by Stop-loss!
 


I never said women are the only victims in this world. It just so happens that in the OP (which is what we're meant to be discussing?), men were the perpertators and the majority of the victims were women. I'm interested to know what you think of said men conducting these rapes? If you think it's unacceptable then we'd agree on something.


There are always two sides of the same coin here but I do agree that there should be no tolerance for raping in this day and age. You almost do seem feminist in yours posts here but I understand why this thread got you so tempermental. There should be more awareness to this problem so future rapes can be prevented.

edit on 17-2-2011 by Stop-loss! because: (no reason given)


Mate, that is all I'm asking - that we show them the respect they deserve.

Define: Feminist: the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men

Yes, that's exactly what I believe - they are equal. And I do not have any issue advocating it or sorting out anyone who would think that makes me any less of a man.

- That last bit sound's aggresive, I would also like to point out I am not being aggresive toward anyone here - I am talking in general.
edit on 17-2-2011 by byteshertz because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 05:23 AM
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reply to post by byteshertz
 


I have always respected women while I was in the army. Rape has no place in the army or in any other workplace, country etc. I just hope that we learn from our mistakes and teach future generations that men and women can work together side by side without the fear of getting rape by either gender.



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 07:07 PM
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I thank each of you for your responses...

I have to add this... I have seen the other side as well...

Tha actual abarracks rat or navjo does exist... they do yell and claim the r word at the drop of a dime...


It is a pain in the posterior to seperate the real charges from the fake...

I actually had to lend a hand queitly to this accusation.... The only thing I could get was this,,,

she bought the alcohol and was underage... (as was he... under 21)

both got drunk...

and they had sex.....

this was all that could be verified....

the others were drunk... and none were old enough to drink...

the female had a history of going from bed to bed... both male and female...

she was married, as was he

I told the chaps the only solution that I could see... report the whole mess as it was...recommend the female to psych for help with her issues and do not release her to the fleet till the psych says she is cleared

as for the male make a note in his record of it... send him to psych as well..

both have a note for suspended bust... this way if either cross the line it is in the record... they went with this because it was the cleanest pc solution... and the chaps said it solved evertything, leaving a look into the future for those in command

I know thier is two sides to this... always is... did I like the solution... no... (thier is a lot more to this but I cant say anymore without pointing out who it was)


What is unacceptable is when a command on top of the act tries to bury it...

The perps are animals... IMHO, but you have exact protocol you follow... exact.... the command commits several crimes and they themselves should ALL be punished...

Yes I made a few enemies... ruined a few careerss, for the boys will be boys comment... You see local cops arresting for rape make it completely different...

, cant exactly hide it then....

sorry for the rant but it irks me...

It is not just the act it is also the cover-up.... It is the source of the general breakdown of good order and discipline...

Like I said if I was in charge they would know what their actions caused.... Because nobody likes honor, courage, commitment qualifacation training at paris island or MCRD san deigo.... then we go through all the special forces training from each branch...

It would be hilarious to watch an out of shape general do push ups during hell week...

"Down general... Up General... So you covered up a rape general.... Down, General... the president did give you a way out General... Up General, you can get an LOR... Down general.. just admit your guilty and you can go to Levenworth..."

LOR = Levenworth On Request.....

You want to know why we have men dying overseas the incompetence that several administrations have allowed.... Yes I said it... everyone that has died in both our current wars is directly related to what these two ladies are suing for... the coverup means they are hiding other things... like bad decisions... incompetent leaders...ect...

I know this sounds very liberal but its not... I refuse to accept this garbage... it is a pure lack of discipline.... a pure lack of it....

Sun Tzu story




The following story bears interesting lessons:

Sun Tzu’s book The Art of War, earned him an audience with the King of Wu, who said, “I have read your books, may i submit your theory of managing soldiers to a small test?”

Sun Tzu replied “Sir, you may.”

The King of Wu asked “Can the test be applied to women?”

Sun Tzu replied that it could, so arrangements were made to bring 180 beautiful women from the palace. Sun Tzu divided them into two troops with one of the King’s favourite concubines at the head of each. He the made all of them take spears in their hands and spoke to them: “I presume you know the difference between front and back, right and left?”

The women replied, “Yes. Of course”
Sun Tzu continued, “When to the sound of drums I order ‘eyes front,’ look straights ahead. When I order ‘left turn,’ face toward your left. When I order ‘right turn’, face toward your right. When I order turn around, face around to the back.
After the words of command had been explained, the women agreed they understood. He gave them spears so he could begin the drill. To the sound of drums, Sun Tzu ordered ‘right turn.’ In response the women burst out in laughter.

With great patience, Sun Tzu said, “If the instructions and words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, then the general is to blame.” He then repeated the explanations several times. This time he ordered the drums to signal ‘left turn,’ and again the women burst into laughter.

Then Sun Tzu said, “If the instructions and words of command are not clear and distinct, if orders are not thoroughly understood, the general is to blame. But if the commands are clear and the soldiers disobey, then it is the fault of the officers.” He immediately ordered the women who were at the head of the two troops to be beheaded.

Of course, the King was watching from a raised pavilion, and when he saw that his two favourite concubines were about to be executed, he was alarmed and swiftly sent down a message: “We are now quite satisfied as to the general’s ability to manage troops. Without these concubines, my food and drink will not taste good. It is the King’s wish that they not be beheaded.”

Sun Tzu replied, “Having received the sovereign’s commission to take charge and direct these troops, there are certain orders I cannot accept.” He immediately had the two concubines beheaded as an example and appointed the two next in line as the new leaders.

Now the drums were sounded and the drill began. The women performed all the maneuvers exactly as commanded. They drilled perfectly in precision and did not utter a single sound.

Sun Tzu sent a messenger to the King of Wu saying, “Your Majesty, the soldiers are now correctly drilled and perfectly disciplined. As sovereign, you may choose to require them to go through fire and water and they will not disobey.”

The King responded, “Our commander should cease the drill and return to his camp. We do not wish to come down and inspect the troops.”

With great calm, Sun Tzu said, “This King is only fond of words and cannot carry them into deeds.”

Commentary following this story indicates that the King relented, recognizing Sun Tzu’s ability and appointed him a general; and Sun Tzu won many battles.




If I had the power I would roll the heads of those involved in the cover ups.... all of them..... no mercy... why...

someone else here who is now a mod said it best...

because in the middle of the night it is the poor infantry grunt who goes down that dark alley without any knowledge of what is coming... they do it for multiple reasons and suffers for thier loyalty in ways we cant imagine. For that they are my hero...

Now with this in mind... do you want the person who is protecting you to have been raped and to top it off the command decides it is better to cover it up.... right before they go down that alley... loyalties might change....

Also these rapes are expensive... why, because treatment cost at the VA go up because of every instance of this...

I am done with my rant...



posted on Mar, 9 2011 @ 06:14 PM
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Ever hunted a marine... it is so much fun...



I think I got the Bastard (the rapist).... I found a glaring loophole.... a huge glaring loophole... and I am going to press the issue in a court of admirality... US terms federal court... but under the admirality.. and the DOD cant interfer.... And Ill give the marine who was raped every dime I got to fight this one out..... to the wall and beyond....

The beautiful thing is he will not be seeing this coming...... Now to set up the dominos...




*************************************************************************************************************************

Ladies... I am going to nail this bastard to the wall for multiple reasons... here is why...

For ATS have you ever sat down and thought about this...

well let me add up the cost to your pocket book....

Every PTSD claim for rape is worth about 50%... for a single no dependants female that is 770 of your dollars a month...

Go find out about how many females serve in the us military... 90% are victims...

millions for dollars for 'boys being boys'...

This is what every rape in the military is costing you... millions of dollars a year...
edit on 9-3-2011 by ripcontrol because: justice is beautiful



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 07:33 PM
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Rape Lawsuit Vs Military and DOD

Rape victims fighting for the justice the deserve.



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by namine
 


This is why you dont put men and women on the front lines together. You tend not to give a # when your life is on the line constantly , you just go numb and listen to orders.



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 08:29 PM
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Found this video and I thought it applies.

Rape in the Military: Congress Charges Cover-Up




Even though it only shows females in the video, it still has a good point:



However male on male rape, female on male rape, or marital rape are even more under reported in the military. Guys don't want to report it for fear or harassment, embarrassment, and retaliation.

Something needs to change.



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 08:34 PM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


respectfully i have to disagree with it.... woman on the frontline is NOT the issue...

Everything listed is a lack of discipline... incompetent leadership...


The behaviors of the commands show a lack of ability...

to lead...



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 08:36 PM
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reply to post by BAMstomper
 


thank you for adding the link to a case ... the court case is interesting... you find what the results where

my other vids posted seem to be bad now...



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by BAMstomper
 


they refuse to admit it...

They will use every trick in the book and then some to protect careers instead of honor courage and commitment...


It would take a leader in the white house to quite literally making an example out of them to stop it...

I would start with the stars in charge and work my down....


you want to know what is wrong here, just watch the vids posted... great find



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 09:06 PM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 09:41 PM
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Using the feminist movement as an excuse to put the female sex down is just another way of saying your a mysoginist.
This is getting tired. It is a double standard, and a new form of oppression of an age old discrimination. And your excuses are quite sad.
Trying to use anything in nature as an excuse shows how little you know about biology.


Originally posted by DakmindAK
Please describe definition of animal. Last time I checked, humans are hairless primates... unless I missed something. Though human egos tend to leave the human animal to believe it is something greater and entitled to more, when in fact the majority of the human animal do not fight the wars that the more brave human animals fight

You already contradicted yourself in your first statement.Yes humans are in the primate family, they are not primates, have distinctive features that set them off from any primates much less the rest of the animal kingdom.
There is no other species of animal that declares war en masse. There is nothing natural about it.


While a one-legged human animal will break gravel with an iron rod for 12 hours a day for 1 dollar a week (Seen it with my own two eyes). Or while some human animal child in a third world country can't seem to find clean water or any food. All the while these domesticated human animals know nothing of hardships as they graze hand-selected foods contained in bags that they obtain from 'grocery stores' across their domesticated lands.

the definition of domestication:
Domestication (from Latin domesticus) or taming is the process whereby a population of animals or plants, through a process of selection, becomes accustomed to human provision and control. In the Convention on Biological Diversity a domesticated species is defined as a 'species in which the evolutionary process has been influenced by humans to meet their needs'
wiki
Again, nothing natural, so just like the domestic dog is now a sheep herder for the human and no longer runs in a pack like the wolves, it has been changed.
You are trying to make a point that humans act like animals, when you only give examples of why humans are the exceptions, and therefore most behavior is an exception.


Where the helpless domesticated human must have water brought to their shelter since they lack the capability of walking miles (like the human animals of third world countries) for water, and would rather not risk the uncleanliness of such an endeavor.

No, the human animal was smart enough to bring the water to them instead of making themselves vulnerable to a host of predators to be killed off. Your ignorantly confusing laziness with intelligence.

Rape happens no matter where you will be in society,

so is racism, but it doesn't make it right. Are you using numbers to justify a major criminal offense?

it just so happens in the military too!

If you looked at numbers, the incidence is much higher in the military, for both men and women.

At least these women are still in a condition enough to speak about it, be thankful of that much! At least they are requiring classes on sexual assault prevention, how many country's military follow this protocol?
so because they survive we should be grateful? How twisted are you?
I guess if someone survives a mugging, we should just be grateful, oh and its natural too boot.

Did you know that male dolphin hunting parties are known to gang up on a single female dolphin and ensue in a game of rape?

some animals copulate with other dead animals, should we start doing it too? Using an aquatic animal to compare to humans is just silly and juevanile. There are also animals that are monogamous. Just because another species does it, doesn't mean ours should. Are you really comparing humans to insects and bugs and trying to use that as a point?I am embarrassed for you.

? Did you know that female led tribes, and even exclusively female tribes are the most violent and volatile of tribes?
That could be learned behavior. And not a single member of this board has ever seen a female tribe. A 200 member tribe is not indicative to half the members of the planet.


I am in no way condoning rape, but your "Men should stop behaving like animals" comment struck soft stone with me. That sort of remark is reminiscent of the feminazi movement that is just a cover for its actual nature of similarity with the oh, so horrid chauvinistic male counter-p

Or the remark is true and the men are behaving like smaller brained animals. But this is where your mysoginy screams, because you lable any social gains by a civil rights movement as nazis, and you try to justify horrid male behavior by saying its natural. So your tactic is to slander and justify. HHHmmm nazi behavior.



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by ripcontrol
 

...quoted reply removed due to vulgarity...


Can I point out the irony in that you have a cross with wings yet you advocate the rape of women because you don't liek their behavior?

Funny how you don't point out how the behvior of men causes problems.

You are actually saying that men have a right to control and violate another human being, simply because you don't like how they act or what they say.

I don't care if they talk about their lacy, red g string all day, no one has the right to force themselves upon another human being.

Not to mention your saying that it is ok for men to attack others at will if they interpret a behavior, any behavior, as a turn on.
But with people like you in it, no wonder this is a huge issue.

I can't believe you are in our military.

You are advocating rape and you should be banned from this site, never allowed to return.
edit on 18-10-2011 by nixie_nox because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-10-2011 by alien because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 09:58 PM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 

...quoted reply removed due to vulgarity...
.

---, what kind of way is that to talk about a rape victim you've never even met?

If you have any form of authority in the military, someone made a very, very big mistake. Even if, and that's a big if, a woman did want to have sex with half the company and not with a would-be rapist - that's her right. You can't justify rape, under any circumstances.

And I don't believe you about the 9 women either. I don't even really believe you're an officer in the US Marine Corps, seeing as you make such a big deal out of it.
edit on 19-10-2011 by alien because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 10:11 PM
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Originally posted by milkyway12
reply to post by ripcontrol
 


...quoted reply removed due to vulgarity...


As far as I know this thread was about rape in the military being actively covered up by people, would seem to me that it would take more of your precious time to do that then to act upon it properly, you mean the kind of babying where someone is above the law because they are in uniform and might tarnish the already blackened image of the US military?



This sex rape thing goes both ways ,


The sex/rap thing? You see these too things as interchangeable words? Rape ISN'T a two way thing, thats why it's rape



...quoted reply removed due to vulgarity...


Maybe if you don't like so much attention you could stop going out dressed in such a sexy tight little uniform, your just asking for it

edit on 19-10-2011 by alien because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


And that right there is why rape still goes on in the military.

It doesn't matter if they are perceived as sluts. Apparently there is an issue one way or another and they NEED to be treated. That's what medical is for. Also not all that are raped are female. There is female on female rape, female on male rape, male on male rape, and marital rape. You shouldn't be so narrow minded. All are issues that occur in the Corps and should be addressed. As a leader you should set the example and not tolerate ANY behavior that is not condoned by the UCMJ. It is your duty and ANY marines duty to uphold the basic Corps vales every one of us is taught in boot camp, or do they not teach that in OCS anymore..By addressing these issues you prevent breakdown of the chain of command. How do you expect these victims to have your back in a fox hole when their mental issues are keeping them from shooting at the enemy??

here's a few of the Marine Corps Leadership Traits.



JUSTICE Definition: Justice is defined as the practice of being fair and consistent. A just person gives consideration to each side of a situation and bases rewards or punishments on merit.

JUDGMENT

Definition: Judgment is your ability to think about things clearly, calmly, and in an orderly fashion so that you can make good decisions.

DECISIVENESS

Definition: Decisiveness means that you are able to make good decisions without delay. Get all the facts and weight them against each other. By acting calmly and quickly, you should arrive at a sound decision. You announce your decisions in a clear, firm, professional manner.

TACT

Definition: Tact means that you can deal with people in a manner that will maintain good relations and avoid problems. It means that you are polite, calm, and firm.

INTEGRITY

Definition: Integrity means that you are honest and truthful in what you say or do. You put honesty, sense of duty, and sound moral principles above all else.



Leadership Principle:




Know your Marines and look out for their welfare

This is one of the most important of the principles. You should know your Marines and how they react to different situations. This knowledge can save lives. A Marine who is nervous and lacks self confidence should never be put in a situation where an important, instant decision must be made. Knowledge of your Marines' personalities will enable you, as the leader, to decide how to best handle each Marine and determine when close supervision is needed.



So DO NOT think that you have nothing to do with the situation. It is your job to make sure that ALL your marines are a well oiled machine. If not, you have failed as their commander and a leader.

After all Semper Fidelis doesn't mean Some times faithful when we happen to feel like it. It means ALWAYS FAITHFUL to The Corps, To our fellow Marines, and to our country.



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 10:47 PM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


I know regardless of what I am about to say, your going to brush it aside. but let me take a moment to thank you for posting as an officer... I will try to keep this civil sir in the hopes of convincing you to be that leader...

Now to the unpleasantness,

Yes incompetent...

First and foremost, As a marine the principal your most proud of is not leaving a marine behind...

honor, courage, commitment


Competent command does not violate its core principal to efficiency...

Under what authority is burying rapes and allowing domestic violence part of any of the core principles.. How is this issue not part of command process...



It is a component of leadership.... As an officer you should be more acutely aware of everything around you... Getting things done is not the only component...

As an officer in the department of the navy you are held to an even higher standard...

You are responsible for the behavior and actions of all your personnel... The Captain (leader) is 100% responsible for all behavior.. Regardless of who it is... the principal that separates the Navy and the marine core from the army and air force...


I have worked in the chaplains office and with savii (ch sp).. the mess gets only messier sir... As I have posted the worst was when it was completely muddied... Even then I did something....

I plead with you sir as protector and defender of america reconsider what you just told me... Those charges are no joke even if they have been "dealt with"... Do not let them just get tossed into the side bin... (that female marine sounds as if she is being left behind)

You mentioned a specific issue with a female propositioning you and later claiming rape...

Your a tough marine so I assume you need no sugar coating, pc, crap

Your first failure...
If females in your command behave in such a way you need to make sure they have no other issues...

Part of leadership is preventive management of issue insuring crap does not happen...

A cry for help from a fellow marine is a cry for help... Did you try to insure this person got any help... (remember never council a female without another one present)


Second failure...
Are you qualified in training per the department of the navy's rules to judge said event...

If she claimed rape you better make sure your bosses got it right...
How reliable was your training in handling this


third failure..
This is the marine cores fault... in that they have not added the proper training for this part to the personnel in general...

I will give you this one..

Try getting a hold of previous commands... You may have been slipped a mickey ( the navy transferred one guy 7 times in two years)

It is the lack of resources on this one that make me mad.... really mad...


you sound like a good leader but are you made of the same stuff as Boyington, Butler, and Pulley


Fourth failure

They stopped teaching something in the leadership at ocs ... they decided that you the leaders would learn it in the field...

Listening to that inner voice
vs
the listening to what it is saying

(nam leadership experience I was blessed with being shared with me)

it is the difference between hearing and understanding

Sir, it sounds like your inner voice is saying something along the lines of she put herself in that position...

Well this old vet told me that it is the battle for your mind that is and will always be the deadliest fight of your life..

I ask that you consider just who is influencing those thoughts... What there motives are....

Be cold blooded when you think about this... If they will throw someone under the bus bypassing preset procedures then when are they going to come for you.....

I share with you because as a leader you create the future everyday...

You are here at ats and this willing expose your mind to various different thoughts... so you can make a lot of reaches other around you cant....

in this mold


tbc----



posted on Oct, 18 2011 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by milkyway12
 


continued... ran out of words...






“One day you will take a fork in the road, and you’re going to have to make a decision about which direction you want to go. If you go one way, you can be somebody. You will have to make your compromises and … turn your back on your friends, but you will be a member of the club, and you will get promoted and get good assignments. Or you can go the other way, and you can do something, something for your country and for your Air Force and for yourself. … You may not get promoted, and you may not get good assignments, and you certainly will not be a favorite of your superiors, but you won’t have to compromise yourself. … In life there is often a roll call. That’s when you have to make a decision: to be or to do.”

-Col. John Boyd



Just remember The man there who said that only had four to seven air force people at his funeral...

Over thirty two marine core officers stood out in the rain at attention... This airforce officer got buried( or had it placed on his urn cant remember which) with the eagle globe and anchor... The passing of a warrior...

So its your roll call

you gonna do or you gonna be

I say this because this is quite a serious issue....


way to many rapes happen and it is because of a break down in discipline.... if they cant control themselves and officers cant lead them well....

breakdown in discipline equals incompetence...


Also as an officer, if they have to be baby-sited they have to much time on there hands... Barracks always need sprucing up and cleaned....Painted???

Perhaps more mando PT? more class room time... more watch training....

Cant you run mock weapons training with fake guns that are heavier.... Say more MCT training for the group...

Why do they have so much time on their hands.... if they can get in trouble you havent given them enough work... or training... or inspections.... ( my favorite line was "To get you ready to be in one at a moments notice")

It is military logic....

breakdown in discipline equals incompetence...

Off the top of your head can you name the officer that Patton relieved in Sicily? Nope but I bet you definitely remember how he enforced discipline....



Look up

Amazon 21 irrefutable laws of leadership

48 laws of power

Boyd: the fighter pilot who changed the art of war


again... you will want to make sure you recheck into that rape... those things have a habit of ending careers
edit on 18-10-2011 by ripcontrol because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 19 2011 @ 12:57 AM
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At least these women are alive and can confront their attackers. Overseas U.S. service men rape and kill innocent civilian women and even young girls all the time and nothing is ever said or done about - they gave the enemy what they deserved- kinda thing. These women can never face their accusers.

Smart people KNEW this would happen if you let women serve along side men. They were right and this was a big mistake. Men in the military are trained and hardened to kill and harm, not respect all life. They have to make them effective killers or there is no point to having service men.

Now you say women can serve along side of these monsters and your shocked when this stuff happens. It would be really funny if it wasn't so tragic.



posted on Oct, 19 2011 @ 10:41 AM
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reply to post by JohnPhoenix
 


I respectfully disagree with you...

I is not a matter of men just following instinct

It is part of the problem in todays military...

DISCIPLINE is not there.....What you seem to misunderstand is that the description you gave has that misunderstanding.... The personnel do not have a say in how they behave or interact...


Any of these acts are the direct responsibility of the leaders... The captain is either in charge of it or we get a new captain...
edit on 19-10-2011 by ripcontrol because: one behavior to control thm all



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