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Video - "The Return Of Horus The Crucified"

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posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 05:25 PM
link   
reply to post by roger_pearse
 


Okay, from Manly Hall's "Secret Teachings of All Ages" written well before Zeitgeist


The list of the deathless mortals who suffered for man that he might receive the boon of eternal life is an imposing one. Among those connected historically or allegorically with a crucifixion are Prometheus, Adonis, Apollo, Arys, Bacchus, Buddha, Christna, Horus, Indra, Ixion, Mithras, Osiris, Pythagoras, Quetzalcoatl, Semiramis, and Jupiter. According to the fragmentary accounts extant, all these heroes gave their lives to the service of humanity and, with one or two exceptions, died as martyrs for the cause of human progress. In many mysterious ways the manner of their death has been designedly concealed, but it is possible that most of them were crucified upon a cross or tree. The first friend of man, the immortal Prometheus, was crucified on the pinnacle of Mount Caucasus, and a vulture was placed over his liver to torment him throughout eternity by clawing and rending his flesh with its talons. Prometheus disobeyed the edict of Zeus by bringing fire and immortality to man, so for man he suffered until the coming of Hercules released him from his ages of torment.

The East Indian equivalent of Christ is the immortal Christna, who, sitting in the forest playing his flute, charmed the birds and beasts by his music. It is supposed that this divinely inspired Savior of humanity was crucified upon a tree by his enemies, but great care has been taken to destroy any evidence pointing in that direction. Louis Jacolliot, in his book The Bible in India, thus describes the death of Christna: "Christna understood that the hour had come for him to quit the earth, and return to the bosom of him who had sent him. Forbidding his disciples to follow him, he went, one day, to make his ablutions on the banks of the Ganges * * *. Arriving at the sacred river, he plunged himself three times therein, then, kneeling, and looking to heaven, he prayed, expecting death. In this position he was pierced with arrows by one of those whose crimes he had unveiled, and who, hearing of his journey to the Ganges, had, with generation. a strong troop, followed with the design of assassinating him * * *. The body of the God-man was suspended to the branches of a tree by his murderer, that it might become the prey of vultures. News of the death having spread, the people came in a crowd conducted by Ardjouna, the dearest of the disciples of Christna, to recover his sacred remains. But the mortal frame of the redeemer had disappeared--no doubt it had regained the celestial abodes * * * and the tree to which it had been attached had become suddenly covered with great red flowers and diffused around it the sweetest perfume." Other accounts of the death of Christna declare that he was tied to a cross-shaped tree before the arrows were aimed at him.

The existence in Moor's The Hindu Pantheon of a plate of Christna with nail wounds in his hands and feet, and a plate in Inman's Ancient Faiths showing an Oriental deity with what might well be a nail hole in one of his feet, should be sufficient motive for further investigation of this subject by those of unbiased minds


Or more on Krishna not from the source I used in developing my workshop but agreeing nonetheless

www.truthbeknown.com...


In Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, Doane elaborates upon the varying legends concerning Krishna's death:The accounts of the deaths of most of all virgin-born Saviours of whom we shall speak, are conflicting. It is stated in one place that such an one died in such a manner, and in another place we may find it stated altogether differently. Even the accounts of the death of Jesus are conflicting

The Vishnu Purana speaks of Crishna being shot in the foot with an arrow, and states that this was the cause of his death. Other accounts, however, state that he was suspended on a tree, or in other words, crucified.

Doane then cites M. Guigniaut's Religion de l'Antiquité, which states:

The death of Crishna is very differently related. One remarkable and convincing tradition makes him perish on a tree, to which he was nailed by the stroke of an arrow.

Doane further relates that the pious Christian Rev. Lundy refers to Guigniaut's statement, translating the original French un bois fatal as a cross. Doane next comments:

Although we do not think he is justified in doing this, as M. Guigniaut has distinctly stated that this bois fatal (which is applied to a gibbet, a cross, a scaffold, etc.) was un arbre (a tree), yet, he is justified in doing so on other accounts, for we find that Crishna is represented hanging on a cross, and we know that a cross was frequently called the so cursed tree

In the earlier copies of Moor's Hindu Pantheon , is to be seen representations of Crishna (as Wittoba ), with marks of holes in both feet, and in others, of holes in the hands. In Figures 4 and 5 of Plate 11 (Moor's work), the figures have nail-holes in both feet . Plate 6 has a round hole in the side ; to his collar or shirt hangs the emblem of a heart (which we often see in pictures of Christ Jesus)

Thus, we discover from some of the more erudite Christian writers, admitting against interest, that images of a Indian god crucified, with nail holes in the feet, had been discovered in India, and that this god was considered to be Krishna,


Ok there's Krishna. How about Horus? Every one knows that Ra was the main Sun god through Egypt but Horus was also considered a representation of a sun god. Again, not from the sources I used (I'm not at home) but meshing with what I know:

www.touregypt.net...


Variants:
Harmakhet
God of the dawn and of the morning sun, he is also worshipped as a keeper of secret wisdom. Harmakhet's form is that of a sphinx or a sphinx with the head of a ram, often depicted as a companion to Khephri. It is thought that the Great Sphinx, staring at the eastern horizon, represents him.

Horus Behudety/Horus of Edfu
God of the noontime sun. This particular variant was first worshipped in the western Delta and spread south, a cult center being established at Edfu. He is represented by a winged sun or as a lion with the head of a hawk. Horus Behudety fights constantly against Set and an army of darkness to ensure that the sun rises each day.

Horus the Elder (Haroeris)
An early form of Horus, when his cult was still new in Egypt. A god of light, his left eye was the sun and his right eye the moon. He was the brother of Osiris and Set, and the husband of Hathor.

Ra-Harakhte
A combined god of Horus and Ra, he was the god of the sun and took it on its daily path across the sky. He is represented as a falcon or a falcon-headed man wearing the solar disk and the double crown. Sometimes he is pictured wearing the atef crown and the uraeus.



Author and theologian Tom Harpur studied the works of three authors who have written about ancient Egyptian religion: Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), Gerald Massey (1828-1907) and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963). Harpur incorporated some of their findings into his book "Pagan Christ." He argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. "[Author Gerald] Massey discovered nearly two hundred instances of immediate correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus. Horus indeed was the archetypal Pagan Christ."


Dionysius? While virgin birth might be an oversimplification:

www.crystalinks.com...


In Greek mythology Dionysus is made to be the son of Zeus and Semele; other versions of the story contend that he is the son of Zeus and Persephone.

Dionysus had an unusual birth that evokes the difficulty in fitting him into the Olympian pantheon. His mother was Semele (daughter of Cadmus), a mortal woman, and his father Zeus, the king of the gods. Zeus's wife, Hera, a jealous and vain goddess, discovered the affair while Semele was pregnant.

In another version of the same story, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the queen of the underworld. A jealous Hera again attempted to kill the child, this time by sending Titans to rip Dionysus to pieces after luring the baby with toys. Zeus drove the Titans away with his thunderbolts, but only after the Titans ate everything but the heart, which was saved, variously, by Athena, Rhea, or Demeter. Zeus used the heart to recreate him in the womb of Semele, hence he was again "the twice-born".

Sometimes people said that he gave Semele the heart to eat to impregnate her. The rebirth in both versions of the story is the primary reason he was worshipped in mystery religions, as his death and rebirth were events of mystical reverence. This narrative was apparently used in certain Greek and Roman mystery religions. Variants of it are found in Callimachus and Nonnus, who refer to this Dionysus under the title Zagreus, and also in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. He was cruicifed for teaching his beleifs and later rose from the dead.


Mithras:

Again not the sources I used originally but matches with previous knowledge


Mithraism arose in the Mediterranean world at the same time as Christianity, either imported from Iran, as Franz Cumont believed, or as a new religion which borrowed the name Mithras from the Persians, as the Congress of Mithraic Studies suggested in 1971.


From a book called "Jesus' Tomb In India" Debate on his death and resurrection, by Paul C. Pappas; he is professor of history at West Virginia Institute of Technology.



On page 13, ...........cult of Mithra from Persia were sun cults that had become popular among the Roman soldiers, and their beliefs and rituals were borrowed to some degree by Christianity. This was especially the case with the cult of Mithras which accepted the immortality of the soul, dualism, the triumph of good over evil, judgement day, and the resurrection of the dead. Mithras, the sun-god, was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun. He was a savior-god who rivaled Jesus in popularity. He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil.


From a book called Pagan Christs, by J.M. Robertson, published by Dorset Press.


The Gentile Christists were able to adapt themselves to the needs of the time. Inevitably this exposed their increasingly pagan influences. The whole conception of a purely spiritual, as distinct from temporal, salvation which grew up in the Gentile churches is Hellenistic or persian rather than Jewish. ((page 70-71))


If I just relied on one source like Zeitgeist, you would be fine to challenge it's factual nature, but coming from numerous sources, including well known and highly respected Manly Hall, I think the point is made that your dismissive "no's" aren't quite fully factual themselves. Maybe you should do more research, however, if you remain convinced of your position, please share the research that you have done that disputes the above.

Also, with all the talk of sun gods, it is important to differentiate that most cultures had 1 primary Sun God: Ra (Amun/Aten) in Egypt, Helios in Greece, Ahura Mazda in Persia, Surya in India, Sol Invictus in Rome, etc. But there were also other gods that represented aspects of the sun that are also rightly considered sun gods. The latter is the group we are discussing.



edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: spelling

edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: spelling


edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: add info

edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: Last paragraph
extra DIV




posted on Feb, 17 2011 @ 04:46 PM
link   

Originally posted by coyotepoet
reply to post by roger_pearse
 


Okay, from Manly Hall's "Secret Teachings of All Ages" written well before Zeitgeist


The list of the deathless mortals who suffered for man that he might receive the boon of eternal life is an imposing one. Among those connected historically or allegorically with a crucifixion are Prometheus, Adonis, Apollo, Arys, Bacchus, Buddha, Christna, Horus, Indra, Ixion, Mithras, Osiris, Pythagoras, Quetzalcoatl, Semiramis, and Jupiter. According to the fragmentary accounts extant, all these heroes gave their lives to the service of humanity and, with one or two exceptions, died as martyrs for the cause of human progress. In many mysterious ways the manner of their death has been designedly concealed, but it is possible that most of them were crucified upon a cross or tree. The first friend of man, the immortal Prometheus, was crucified on the pinnacle of Mount Caucasus, and a vulture was placed over his liver to torment him throughout eternity by clawing and rending his flesh with its talons. Prometheus disobeyed the edict of Zeus by bringing fire and immortality to man, so for man he suffered until the coming of Hercules released him from his ages of torment.

The East Indian equivalent of Christ is the immortal Christna, who, sitting in the forest playing his flute, charmed the birds and beasts by his music. It is supposed that this divinely inspired Savior of humanity was crucified upon a tree by his enemies, but great care has been taken to destroy any evidence pointing in that direction. Louis Jacolliot, in his book The Bible in India, thus describes the death of Christna: "Christna understood that the hour had come for him to quit the earth, and return to the bosom of him who had sent him. Forbidding his disciples to follow him, he went, one day, to make his ablutions on the banks of the Ganges * * *. Arriving at the sacred river, he plunged himself three times therein, then, kneeling, and looking to heaven, he prayed, expecting death. In this position he was pierced with arrows by one of those whose crimes he had unveiled, and who, hearing of his journey to the Ganges, had, with generation. a strong troop, followed with the design of assassinating him * * *. The body of the God-man was suspended to the branches of a tree by his murderer, that it might become the prey of vultures. News of the death having spread, the people came in a crowd conducted by Ardjouna, the dearest of the disciples of Christna, to recover his sacred remains. But the mortal frame of the redeemer had disappeared--no doubt it had regained the celestial abodes * * * and the tree to which it had been attached had become suddenly covered with great red flowers and diffused around it the sweetest perfume." Other accounts of the death of Christna declare that he was tied to a cross-shaped tree before the arrows were aimed at him.

The existence in Moor's The Hindu Pantheon of a plate of Christna with nail wounds in his hands and feet, and a plate in Inman's Ancient Faiths showing an Oriental deity with what might well be a nail hole in one of his feet, should be sufficient motive for further investigation of this subject by those of unbiased minds


Or more on Krishna not from the source I used in developing my workshop but agreeing nonetheless

www.truthbeknown.com...


In Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, Doane elaborates upon the varying legends concerning Krishna's death:The accounts of the deaths of most of all virgin-born Saviours of whom we shall speak, are conflicting. It is stated in one place that such an one died in such a manner, and in another place we may find it stated altogether differently. Even the accounts of the death of Jesus are conflicting

The Vishnu Purana speaks of Crishna being shot in the foot with an arrow, and states that this was the cause of his death. Other accounts, however, state that he was suspended on a tree, or in other words, crucified.

Doane then cites M. Guigniaut's Religion de l'Antiquité, which states:

The death of Crishna is very differently related. One remarkable and convincing tradition makes him perish on a tree, to which he was nailed by the stroke of an arrow.

Doane further relates that the pious Christian Rev. Lundy refers to Guigniaut's statement, translating the original French un bois fatal as a cross. Doane next comments:

Although we do not think he is justified in doing this, as M. Guigniaut has distinctly stated that this bois fatal (which is applied to a gibbet, a cross, a scaffold, etc.) was un arbre (a tree), yet, he is justified in doing so on other accounts, for we find that Crishna is represented hanging on a cross, and we know that a cross was frequently called the so cursed tree

In the earlier copies of Moor's Hindu Pantheon , is to be seen representations of Crishna (as Wittoba ), with marks of holes in both feet, and in others, of holes in the hands. In Figures 4 and 5 of Plate 11 (Moor's work), the figures have nail-holes in both feet . Plate 6 has a round hole in the side ; to his collar or shirt hangs the emblem of a heart (which we often see in pictures of Christ Jesus)

Thus, we discover from some of the more erudite Christian writers, admitting against interest, that images of a Indian god crucified, with nail holes in the feet, had been discovered in India, and that this god was considered to be Krishna,


Ok there's Krishna. How about Horus? Every one knows that Ra was the main Sun god through Egypt but Horus was also considered a representation of a sun god. Again, not from the sources I used (I'm not at home) but meshing with what I know:

www.touregypt.net...


Variants:
Harmakhet
God of the dawn and of the morning sun, he is also worshipped as a keeper of secret wisdom. Harmakhet's form is that of a sphinx or a sphinx with the head of a ram, often depicted as a companion to Khephri. It is thought that the Great Sphinx, staring at the eastern horizon, represents him.

Horus Behudety/Horus of Edfu
God of the noontime sun. This particular variant was first worshipped in the western Delta and spread south, a cult center being established at Edfu. He is represented by a winged sun or as a lion with the head of a hawk. Horus Behudety fights constantly against Set and an army of darkness to ensure that the sun rises each day.

Horus the Elder (Haroeris)
An early form of Horus, when his cult was still new in Egypt. A god of light, his left eye was the sun and his right eye the moon. He was the brother of Osiris and Set, and the husband of Hathor.

Ra-Harakhte
A combined god of Horus and Ra, he was the god of the sun and took it on its daily path across the sky. He is represented as a falcon or a falcon-headed man wearing the solar disk and the double crown. Sometimes he is pictured wearing the atef crown and the uraeus.



Author and theologian Tom Harpur studied the works of three authors who have written about ancient Egyptian religion: Godfrey Higgins (1771-1834), Gerald Massey (1828-1907) and Alvin Boyd Kuhn (1880-1963). Harpur incorporated some of their findings into his book "Pagan Christ." He argued that all of the essential ideas of both Judaism and Christianity came primarily from Egyptian religion. "[Author Gerald] Massey discovered nearly two hundred instances of immediate correspondence between the mythical Egyptian material and the allegedly historical Christian writings about Jesus. Horus indeed was the archetypal Pagan Christ."


Dionysius? While virgin birth might be an oversimplification:

www.crystalinks.com...


In Greek mythology Dionysus is made to be the son of Zeus and Semele; other versions of the story contend that he is the son of Zeus and Persephone.

Dionysus had an unusual birth that evokes the difficulty in fitting him into the Olympian pantheon. His mother was Semele (daughter of Cadmus), a mortal woman, and his father Zeus, the king of the gods. Zeus's wife, Hera, a jealous and vain goddess, discovered the affair while Semele was pregnant.

In another version of the same story, Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the queen of the underworld. A jealous Hera again attempted to kill the child, this time by sending Titans to rip Dionysus to pieces after luring the baby with toys. Zeus drove the Titans away with his thunderbolts, but only after the Titans ate everything but the heart, which was saved, variously, by Athena, Rhea, or Demeter. Zeus used the heart to recreate him in the womb of Semele, hence he was again "the twice-born".

Sometimes people said that he gave Semele the heart to eat to impregnate her. The rebirth in both versions of the story is the primary reason he was worshipped in mystery religions, as his death and rebirth were events of mystical reverence. This narrative was apparently used in certain Greek and Roman mystery religions. Variants of it are found in Callimachus and Nonnus, who refer to this Dionysus under the title Zagreus, and also in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus. He was cruicifed for teaching his beleifs and later rose from the dead.


Mithras:

Again not the sources I used originally but matches with previous knowledge


Mithraism arose in the Mediterranean world at the same time as Christianity, either imported from Iran, as Franz Cumont believed, or as a new religion which borrowed the name Mithras from the Persians, as the Congress of Mithraic Studies suggested in 1971.


From a book called "Jesus' Tomb In India" Debate on his death and resurrection, by Paul C. Pappas; he is professor of history at West Virginia Institute of Technology.



On page 13, ...........cult of Mithra from Persia were sun cults that had become popular among the Roman soldiers, and their beliefs and rituals were borrowed to some degree by Christianity. This was especially the case with the cult of Mithras which accepted the immortality of the soul, dualism, the triumph of good over evil, judgement day, and the resurrection of the dead. Mithras, the sun-god, was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun. He was a savior-god who rivaled Jesus in popularity. He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil.


From a book called Pagan Christs, by J.M. Robertson, published by Dorset Press.


The Gentile Christists were able to adapt themselves to the needs of the time. Inevitably this exposed their increasingly pagan influences. The whole conception of a purely spiritual, as distinct from temporal, salvation which grew up in the Gentile churches is Hellenistic or persian rather than Jewish. ((page 70-71))


If I just relied on one source like Zeitgeist, you would be fine to challenge it's factual nature, but coming from numerous sources, including well known and highly respected Manly Hall, I think the point is made that your dismissive "no's" aren't quite fully factual themselves. Maybe you should do more research, however, if you remain convinced of your position, please share the research that you have done that disputes the above.

Also, with all the talk of sun gods, it is important to differentiate that most cultures had 1 primary Sun God: Ra (Amun/Aten) in Egypt, Helios in Greece, Ahura Mazda in Persia, Surya in India, Sol Invictus in Rome, etc. But there were also other gods that represented aspects of the sun that are also rightly considered sun gods. The latter is the group we are discussing.



edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: spelling

edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: spelling


edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: add info

edit on 16-2-2011 by coyotepoet because: Last paragraph


The point of the youtube video is that even Zeitgeist overlooks "the angel of the Lord". The angel of the Lord in the old testament proves Jesus to be historically inaccurate more than anything in Zeitgeist. extra DIV



posted on Feb, 18 2011 @ 12:39 PM
link   
reply to post by coyotepoet
 


I seem to have misspoken and gave you the idea you might have been right. Or that Zeitgeist might have been right. Let me say it more clear.

What you just said is absolute BULL. Mitra has NOTHING to do with Zoroastrianism, in all the remaining hymns and scriptures that are left there Mitra is not even MENTIONED once.

You see, that is why I said, you can choose to believe later interpretations and be fooled by them.

FYI, Zoroastrianism existed well before the Roman empire and the values were destroyed before the Roman Empire even came to be. If you're looking for Zoroastrian influences, which Zeitgeist conventionally leaves out because hey- the truth sets you free right, take a look at the Greek, the Israeli, the Chinese, the Japanese, the Indians, the Arabs (etc, etc) and their religions and belief systems. Zoroastrianism and Persian history/geography is well presented in all of them.

Ahura MAZDA(car brand) is just one...of the so many millions of pieces of Persian history scrambled across the Earth of today.

The Eagle of the Americans? The Christian Cross? Winged men? Take a look at the Farahvar.


The way Zeitgeist deals with Zoroastrianism tells me they are trying to HIDE history from you. Not wake you up, lol. Seriously.
edit on 18-2-2011 by Zamini because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 21 2011 @ 04:36 PM
link   

Originally posted by CodyOutlaw
Well, the writing was presented in quite a convoluted manner, but if it is isaying that Jesus = Michael, then yes.
YES.


No, its saying that the angel of the old testament is the Christ, while Jesus is the beast according to the entire bible.



posted on Feb, 22 2011 @ 07:51 AM
link   
reply to post by coyotepoet
 



Ahura Mazda in Persia


Once again. Zoroastrianism did not revere the sun, Ahura Mazda is not a solar deity. These are derogative towards Zoroastrianism as the invading Muslims also, and until now, keep putting it down as if Zartosht preached that the sun was god. "Oh they praise fire" "Oh they praise the sun", "Don't pay attention to them, they think the sun is God".

Seriously. Q-U-I-T talking about things you know nothing of.



posted on Feb, 22 2011 @ 10:45 AM
link   
Was Horus "Crucified?"
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

Here you can see Roger Pearse get PWND and the level of utter dishonesty he spews.

Mithra: The Pagan Christ
www.freethoughtnation.com...



posted on Feb, 22 2011 @ 11:31 AM
link   
reply to post by Zamini
 


That was my mistake in misspeaking. While he was the overall Diety, I have always associated Ahura Mazda with a sun god due to his portrayal with the winged disc. You are correct in chastising, Zoroastrianism is something in which I have not done much study.



posted on Feb, 25 2011 @ 03:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by jayhova
Okay, from Manly Hall's "Secret Teachings of All Ages" written well before Zeitgeist


Friend, please don't use stuff like this as an authority. Just look at the title, hmm? People who write books like that are not experts on ancient history. Really they are not.

Instead of relying on these "authorities", why not check the facts for yourself? The primary sources are all online, and you can access in a second material that such people as this could only dream of being able to use.



The list of the deathless mortals who suffered for man that he might receive the boon of eternal life is an imposing one. Among those connected historically or allegorically with a crucifixion are Prometheus, Adonis, Apollo, Arys, Bacchus, Buddha, Christna, Horus, Indra, Ixion, Mithras, Osiris, Pythagoras, Quetzalcoatl, Semiramis, and Jupiter.


Please ... look this up. Hmm? It's utter drivel.



The first friend of man, the immortal Prometheus, was crucified on the pinnacle of Mount Caucasus, and a vulture was placed over his liver to torment him throughout eternity by clawing and rending his flesh with its talons. Prometheus disobeyed the edict of Zeus by bringing fire and immortality to man, so for man he suffered until the coming of Hercules released him from his ages of torment.


Prometheus was not crucified -- he was chained to a rock. Quite how the remainder of the myth fits the story you don't say.



The East Indian equivalent of Christ is the immortal Christna, who, sitting in the forest playing his flute, charmed the birds and beasts by his music. It is supposed that this divinely inspired Savior of humanity was crucified upon a tree by his enemies, but great care has been taken to destroy any evidence pointing in that direction.


Are we discussing Krishna here, perchance?

And since the author says there is no evidence for his claim, why need we listen to it?



Or more on Krishna not from the source I used in developing my workshop but agreeing nonetheless

www.truthbeknown.com...


You can find out just what value intelligent atheists place on Acharya S with a simple Google search. The *facts* are wrong.


How about Horus? Every one knows that Ra was the main Sun god through Egypt but Horus was also considered a representation of a sun god. Again, not from the sources I used (I'm not at home) but meshing with what I know:

www.touregypt.net...


None of what you quoted supported the thesis, tho.



Dionysius? While virgin birth might be an oversimplification:

www.crystalinks.com...


Or a misrepresentation tout court.



Mithras:

Again not the sources I used originally but matches with previous knowledge

Mithraism arose in the Mediterranean world at the same time as Christianity, either imported from Iran, as Franz Cumont believed, or as a new religion which borrowed the name Mithras from the Persians, as the Congress of Mithraic Studies suggested in 1971.


Yes? So?



From a book called "Jesus' Tomb In India" Debate on his death and resurrection, by Paul C. Pappas; he is professor of history at West Virginia Institute of Technology.

On page 13, ...........cult of Mithra from Persia were sun cults that had become popular among the Roman soldiers, and their beliefs and rituals were borrowed to some degree by Christianity. This was especially the case with the cult of Mithras which accepted the immortality of the soul, dualism, the triumph of good over evil, judgement day, and the resurrection of the dead. Mithras, the sun-god, was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun. He was a savior-god who rivaled Jesus in popularity. He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil.


All of which statements are not found in the primary sources. This is tosh, in other words.



From a book called Pagan Christs, by J.M. Robertson, published by Dorset Press.


Over a century ago, and filleted by real scholars even then.



If I just relied on one source like Zeitgeist, you would be fine to challenge it's factual nature, but coming from numerous sources, including well known and highly respected Manly Hall, I think the point is made that your dismissive "no's" aren't quite fully factual themselves. Maybe you should do more research, however, if you remain convinced of your position, please share the research that you have done that disputes the above.


Friend, you could quote a million people like that. Just ask two questions:

1. Did this person live in ancient times? Or
2. Is this person a professional scholar on the subject?

The answer is no in both cases. Please look up the word "hearsay".


Also, with all the talk of sun gods, it is important to differentiate that most cultures had 1 primary Sun God: Ra (Amun/Aten) in Egypt, Helios in Greece, Ahura Mazda in Persia, Surya in India, Sol Invictus in Rome, etc.


Surprising, really, given there are two suns in the sky.

Please ... you're being suckered badly here. The same old crap goes around again and again. But what it never does is produce ancient sources for its claims.

Be sceptical.

All the best,

Roger Pearse
edit on 25/2/2011 by roger_pearse because: Formatting error

edit on 25/2/2011 by roger_pearse because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 25 2011 @ 03:35 PM
link   
reply to post by jayhova
 


BS horus!
get a life
the return of x , y ,z

come oooonnn...



posted on Feb, 25 2011 @ 03:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by GoldenKnight
Was Horus "Crucified?"
www.stellarhousepublishing.com...

Here you can see Roger Pearse get PWND and the level of utter dishonesty he spews.

Mithra: The Pagan Christ
www.freethoughtnation.com...


If readers can stomach it, do read the thread. It will certainly indicate a level of utter dishonesty somewhere, although not by me.

If I remember rightly, this was the thread in which I questioned the simple and oft-repeated statement that "Mithras had 12 disciples". I pointed out that no ancient text says this, so it was not reasonable to state it.

The response, uttered less than concisely, was that :

* Mithras was depicted surrounded by the zodiac;
* Christ is sometimes depicted in Spanish paintings 16 centuries later surrounded by the zodiac.
* In those paintings literature says that the zodiac represents the 12 apostles.
* Therefore any depiction of the zodiac anywhere in the world, at any time past or present, "must" mean "apostles"
* Therefore Mithras had 12 disciples.

When I queried this, they got all cross and locked the thread.

We all hear that kind of "defence" -- "I smoked dope but I did not inhale" -- from politicians. Is anyone impressed by that sort of "logic"?

All the best,

Roger Pearse
edit on 25/2/2011 by roger_pearse because: Revised after revisit to site referenced



posted on Feb, 25 2011 @ 04:23 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Feb, 26 2011 @ 07:26 AM
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One postscript. I realised that I posted an attack on various sources, but did not indicate a better source. That's less than useful, I know.

For Mithras I would recommend Manfred Clauss, "The Roman cult of Mithras", published by Oxford. It's an academic book (translated from the German by Richard Gordon), but is quite accessible. There is a Google books preview accessible only in the US, I think (I have seen it appear and disappear!). It's bang up to date, and was written in response to Reinhold Merkelbach's "Mithras", in order to set out the current academic consensus on the subject.

There is also a collection of all the ancient literary sources online at my site here. This is intended to help people access stuff, rather than as an authority.

You can also access the two volumes (in French) of Franz Cumont, "Textes et Monumentes" (published ca. 1900) at Archive.org. They contain a lot of the sources and inscriptions. Cumont founded Mithras studies. But he naturally presumed that Persian Mitra was the same as Roman Mithras (why not?) and so mingles stuff from both. But over the next 70 years, scholars began to realise that the two were not the same. In particular Roman Mithras is always worshipped in very distinctive underground temples or Mithraea. But there are none outside the Roman empire. Likewise no Persian source depicts Mitra killing the bull, yet every Mithras source known refers to this. So these days people presume that Roman Mithras was invented some time in the first century AD by someone with a vague knowledge of "oriental" ideas.

I hope that helps.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Mar, 1 2011 @ 08:45 PM
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What the hell was even the point of this video? That was a waste of 61 seconds of my time. And as far as I have ever read, there is no indication of Horus having ever been crucified or even depicted in cruciform iconography. The closest one might be able to fudge such a thing is in one brief passage in James Allen's translation of The Ancient Egyptian Pyramid Texts in which Horus is said to be upon his ankh, and since an ankh is a type of cross, one might interpret that to be depicting Horus on a cross of sorts, but there is no elaboration on what this means really. Moreover, this is only in Allen's translation, which, while it is the most up to date English translation, it is the only one that translates this particular passage the way he does. Samuel Mercer and Raymond Faulkner both translate it as Horus is holding his staff of life.

That much aside, I feel compelled to address a few errors that stuck out for me.


Originally posted by roger_pearse
No. Ra was the Egyptian sun god.


Yes, Horus was a sun god and in fact he was the earliest of the Egyptian sun gods, predating even Ra. And to mention Ra the way you did seems to be setting a false dichotomy, as though there can only be one sun god at a time, when in fact, there were often several, and at one point Ra and Horus would even merge together at the sun's zenith point to become Ra-Horakhty.

For references, here is Professor Glenn Holland in his lectures on religious history for The Teaching Company-
"Now, Horus appears to have been the earliest of the sun gods, and he was also as you know, the chief god of Lower Egypt. ... Although the association between Horus and the royal authority of the pharaoh largely overshadows Horus's identity as a sun god, the identity of Horus as a sun god is the primary identity. It becomes less important over time, but it is still his primary identity. ... It appears that the dominant solar deity among the Egyptians was Re, and this is especially true during the early dynasties of the Old Kingdom. And we find the name of Re appearing in compound form with the names of other sun gods. Re is identified with the sun at its zenith, at its high point. ... One of Re's names, "Re-Horakhty", meaning "Re, Horus of the horizon", indicated his relationship through the dynamic union of Re with Horus, the god of kingship. So Re becomes identified with the pharaoh, through association with Horus. These combination names do not imply that the gods are identical, nor are they names for new gods. Instead they indicate the unity of the divine powers associated with the sun.".

Here is James P. Allen's statement in the intro to his translation of the Pyramid Texts, p.8- "the Sun was identified with Horus".

And here is Allen on p.144 of 'Middle Egyptian: an Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs' -
"Horus's role as the king of nature is probably the origin of his name, hrw seems to mean 'the one above' or 'the one far off'... This is apparently a reference to the sun".

And for a primary source, one example is the Book of the Earth, in which, on the middle register of part C, we see "The sun disk, out of which the falcon shaped head of Horus of the Netherworld is projected". - www.touregypt.net...
Here are parts B and C. The depiction of Horus previously described can be seen in the lower right hand section, the middle register, flanked by two ram gods and two falcon gods.
www.touregypt.net...

Other sun gods include the Aten, and Atum & Khepri who were eventually conflated with Ra and just considered alternate forms of him, Khepri at dawn, Ra-Horakhty at the zenith, and Atum at dusk.



Dionysius was born of a virgin and is another example of a sun god.

Nope.


Hmmm... well, there are certainly several versions of this myth where Semele is Zeus's lover. And there is no version that explicitly calls her a virgin. But I have seen translations of Euripides's Bacchae that depict Semele as impregnated by the lightning bolt that killed her, hence a non-sexual birth.(Peter Szondi quoting Holderlin's translation in 'On Textual Understanding and Other Essays', p.27, "Semele, impregnated by Thunder's fire") Although, reading through various English translations, it was difficult for me to tell whether Euripides actually ever has Zeus and Semele in sexual intercourse.

But no, if you're looking for indisputable pre-christian Greek virgin mothers, you're better off appealing to Gaia, who Hesiod said in Theogony, c.8th century BC, gave birth to her first three children "without the sweet union of love", but afterward began having children with her first son, Ouranos.

Other than that... maybe some of the versions of Ericthonius's birth, which have Athena as his mother, and sometimes Gaia as her surrogate of sorts, but that may be stretching it because that whole conception was just... weird. Although Apollonius of Tyana did explicitly describe it as a virgin birth, so... whatever.


Originally posted by roger_pearse
There is no archaeological evidence for Mithras, the Roman god, prior to 100 AD.
There is no literary source that mentions Mithras prior to 80 AD.


This is incorrect, or rather, perhaps a bit mistating of things, since you might be using the word "Roman" there as a qualifier. As far as I have ever read, there is simply no evidence for this cult IN ROME, prior to the first century CE, but the existence of this Mithras and many of the major elements associated with him do indeed date back to the first century BCE at least, since by that time we already see him in full syncretism with Attis, Apollo, Helios, etc.

Mithrais Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies, Volume 1, p. 129, John R. Hinnells -
"There is clear evidence from Commagene as early as circa 35 BC for an identification of Mithras with Apollo-Helios-Hermes. There is also a little further evidence for this in Anatolia (CIMRM 23 of 78-77 BC; perhaps 12 and 18 also), and Strabo's equation of Mithras with the sun among the Persians (late first century BC)."

Science Awakening II: The Birth of Astronomy, Volume 2, p. 189 by Bartel Leendert Waerden -
"In Roman texts Mithras is called 'Sol Invictus'. In an inscription of Antiochus of Commagene, dated 62 B.C. (see Plate 19 and 20) Mithras is identified with Helios."

The Encyclopedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts Sciences .... Volume 18, edited by -
"Modified though never essentially changed, (1) by contacy with the star-worship of the Chaldaeans, who identified Mithras with Shamash, god of the sun.(2) by the indigenous Armenian religion and other local Asiatic faiths and (3) by the Greeks of Asia Minor, who identified Mithras with Helios, and contributed to the success of his cult by equipping it for the first time with artistic representations (the famous Mithras relief originated in the Pergamene school towards the 2nd century B.C.). Mithraism was first transmitted to the Roman world during the 1st century B.C. by the Cilician pirates captured by Pompey. It attained no importance, however, for nearly two centuries."

Ancient Mystery Cults by Walter Burket, p.83 -
"Mithras was identified with the sun at an early date, and Mithras Helios or Mithras Sol is invoked in countless Mithraic inscriptions."

Beck on Mithraism: Collected Works with New Essays by Roger Beck, p.295 -
"The dynasty and in particular Antiochus I (69-c.36 BCE) were thoughtful syncretizers of Iranian and Greek religion; Mithras, equated with Helios, was a major god of their pantheon;"
p.40 - "Solar Mithras thus represents a continuity from the royal cult of Commagene to the Mysteries of Mithras, but it is not a long-standing one, being and 'invention' of the royal cult itself in the same sense that Mithras as bull-killer was the 'invention' of the Commagenian founders of the Mysteries a century or so later (see preceeding note). In our account, then, the 'invention' of Helios-Mithras in the Commagenian royal cult is sufficient causal explanation of the solarity of Mithras in the Mysteries: Mithras is the Sun in the Mysteries because the Commagenian founders of the Mysteries Mysteries received him in that identity."

A Companion to Roman Religion by Jorg Rupke, p.395 - "No less striking is the fact that the first clear literary reference dates from the same period: the poet Statius refers to Mithras, identified with solar Apollo, "twisting the recalcitrant horns in a Persian cave," Persaet sub rupibus antri/indignata sequi torquentem cornua Mithram (Thebaid 719f.), a passage probably written in the mid-80s. This evidence suggests that the cult already presented many of its later features - Mithras identified as Persian, as a Sun-god and as a bull-slayer; the contrastive torchbearers; the death of the bull as the guarantee of agricultural fecundity.
A few years ago it becamse briefly fashionable to argue that the Roman cult was created in Italy. The early archeological finds do not support this claim; neither do they point to an origin in Anatolia. However, the fact remains that key terms of Mithraic language are Greek and were translated into Latin implies and origin somehwere in the eatern Mediterranean."

"The Roman Cult of Mithras: The God and His Mysteries" by Manfred Clauss, p.156-157 - "in addition with solar deities, local influences might also affect the way in which Mithras was represented. A clear example of this is the amalgamation of ideas from the cult of Attis with Mithras. ... 114. Panticapaeum/Kerch, Crimean Peninsula: terracotta figurine of Mithras, assimilated to Attis, killing the bull (V 11). Five such figurines are known; ... Date: ? second half of the first cent. BC."
edit on 1-3-2011 by Chokemychicken because: Grammatical corrections



posted on Mar, 2 2011 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by Chokemychicken
That much aside, I feel compelled to address a few errors that stuck out for me.


Originally posted by roger_pearse
No. Ra was the Egyptian sun god.


Yes, Horus was a sun god and in fact he was the earliest of the Egyptian sun gods, predating even Ra.

For references, here is Professor Glenn Holland in his lectures on religious history for The Teaching Company-
"Now, Horus appears to have been the earliest of the sun gods, and he was also as you know, the chief god of Lower Egypt. ... Although the association between Horus and the royal authority of the pharaoh largely overshadows Horus's identity as a sun god, the identity of Horus as a sun god is the primary identity. It becomes less important over time, but it is still his primary identity. ... It appears that the dominant solar deity among the Egyptians was Re, and this is especially true during the early dynasties of the Old Kingdom. And we find the name of Re appearing in compound form with the names of other sun gods. Re is identified with the sun at its zenith, at its high point. ... One of Re's names, "Re-Horakhty", meaning "Re, Horus of the horizon", indicated his relationship through the dynamic union of Re with Horus, the god of kingship. So Re becomes identified with the pharaoh, through association with Horus. These combination names do not imply that the gods are identical, nor are they names for new gods. Instead they indicate the unity of the divine powers associated with the sun.".

Here is James P. Allen's statement in the intro to his translation of the Pyramid Texts, p.8- "the Sun was identified with Horus".

And here is Allen on p.144 of 'Middle Egyptian: an Introduction to the Language and Culture of Hieroglyphs' -
"Horus's role as the king of nature is probably the origin of his name, hrw seems to mean 'the one above' or 'the one far off'... This is apparently a reference to the sun".

And for a primary source, one example is the Book of the Earth, in which, on the middle register of part C, we see "The sun disk, out of which the falcon shaped head of Horus of the Netherworld is projected". - www.touregypt.net...
Here are parts B and C. The depiction of Horus previously described can be seen in the lower right hand section, the middle register, flanked by two ram gods and two falcon gods.
www.touregypt.net...

Other sun gods include the Aten, and Atum & Khepri who were eventually conflated with Ra and just considered alternate forms of him, Khepri at dawn, Ra-Horakhty at the zenith, and Atum at dusk.


Interesting, and I shall have to look more at this. But I always understood that Aten was a form of Ra, which became a separate deity, rather than a deity which merged with Ra.



Dionysius was born of a virgin and is another example of a sun god. Nope.


Hmmm... well, there are certainly several versions of this myth where Semele is Zeus's lover. And there is no version that explicitly calls her a virgin. But I have seen translations of Euripides's Bacchae that depict Semele as impregnated by the lightning bolt that killed her, hence a non-sexual birth.(Peter Szondi quoting Holderlin's translation in 'On Textual Understanding and Other Essays', p.27, "Semele, impregnated by Thunder's fire") Although, reading through various English translations, it was difficult for me to tell whether Euripides actually ever has Zeus and Semele in sexual intercourse.


Agreed. But "born of a virgin" is a specific idea. Once we start to say "not born normally", we're really engaged in messing with categories.




Originally posted by roger_pearse
There is no archaeological evidence for Mithras, the Roman god, prior to 100 AD.
There is no literary source that mentions Mithras prior to 80 AD.


This is incorrect, or rather, perhaps a bit mistating of things, since you might be using the word "Roman" there as a qualifier. .... Mithras and many of the major elements associated with him do indeed date back to the first century BCE at least, since by that time we already see him in full syncretism with Attis, Apollo, Helios, etc.

Mithrais Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies, Volume 1, p. 129, John R. Hinnells - "There is clear evidence from Commagene as early as circa 35 BC for an identification of Mithras with Apollo-Helios-Hermes. There is also a little further evidence for this in Anatolia (CIMRM 23 of 78-77 BC; perhaps 12 and 18 also), and Strabo's equation of Mithras with the sun among the Persians (late first century BC)."


Note the date of the publication; 1971. This is not Roman Mithras, but Persian Mitra. The identification of the two by Cumont (for very good reasons) was a mistake, which ultimately was rejected at that very conference. But of course many of the papers reflect the Cumontian understanding, and therefore attribute material associated with Mithra with Mithras.



Science Awakening II: The Birth of Astronomy, Volume 2, p. 189 by Bartel Leendert Waerden -
"In Roman texts Mithras is called 'Sol Invictus'. In an inscription of Antiochus of Commagene, dated 62 B.C. (see Plate 19 and 20) Mithras is identified with Helios."


Have a look at the whole inscription. You will see that it is a syncretism of deities of east and west . The position of "Mithras" in the syncretism makes clear that the Persian deity is intended.



The Encyclopedia Britannica: A Dictionary of Arts Sciences .... Volume 18, edited by -
"Modified though never essentially changed, (1) by contacy with the star-worship of the Chaldaeans, who identified Mithras with Shamash, god of the sun.(2) by the indigenous Armenian religion and other local Asiatic faiths and (3) by the Greeks of Asia Minor, who identified Mithras with Helios, and contributed to the success of his cult by equipping it for the first time with artistic representations (the famous Mithras relief originated in the Pergamene school towards the 2nd century B.C.). Mithraism was first transmitted to the Roman world during the 1st century B.C. by the Cilician pirates captured by Pompey. It attained no importance, however, for nearly two centuries."


This is the Cumont theory. It fails because Mithras is represented by distinctive subterranean temples -- Mithraea -- which are unknown outside of the Roman world, and because the classic image of Mithras -- Mithras slaying the bull -- is unknown to the Persian cult.



Ancient Mystery Cults by Walter Burket, p.83 -
"Mithras was identified with the sun at an early date, and Mithras Helios or Mithras Sol is invoked in countless Mithraic inscriptions."


Certainly true (not sure about "Mithras Helios"), but Deus Mithras Sol Invictus is in one of the earliest reliefs.



Beck on Mithraism: Collected Works with New Essays by Roger Beck, p.295 -
"The dynasty and in particular Antiochus I (69-c.36 BCE) were thoughtful syncretizers of Iranian and Greek religion; Mithras, equated with Helios, was a major god of their pantheon;"
p.40 - "Solar Mithras thus represents a continuity from the royal cult of Commagene to the Mysteries of Mithras, but it is not a long-standing one, being and 'invention' of the royal cult itself in the same sense that Mithras as bull-killer was the 'invention' of the Commagenian founders of the Mysteries a century or so later (see preceeding note). In our account, then, the 'invention' of Helios-Mithras in the Commagenian royal cult is sufficient causal explanation of the solarity of Mithras in the Mysteries: Mithras is the Sun in the Mysteries because the Commagenian founders of the Mysteries Mysteries received him in that identity."


Beck, Roger B. (2004). Beck on Mithraism: Collected Works With New Essays. Aldershot: Ashgate. ISBN 0754640817. , p. 28: "Since the 1970s scholars of western Mithraism have generally agreed that Cumont's master narrative of east-west transfer is unsustainable;" although he adds that "recent trends in the scholarship on Iranian religion, by modifying the picture of that religion prior to the birth of the western mysteries, now render a revised Cumontian scenario of east-west transfer and continuities now viable."



A Companion to Roman Religion by Jorg Rupke, p.395 - "No less striking is the fact that the first clear literary reference dates from the same period: the poet Statius refers to Mithras, identified with solar Apollo, "twisting the recalcitrant horns in a Persian cave," Persaet sub rupibus antri/indignata sequi torquentem cornua Mithram (Thebaid 719f.), a passage probably written in the mid-80s. This evidence suggests that the cult already presented many of its later features - Mithras identified as Persian, as a Sun-god and as a bull-slayer; the contrastive torchbearers; the death of the bull as the guarantee of agricultural fecundity.


True.



A few years ago it becamse briefly fashionable to argue that the Roman cult was created in Italy. The early archeological finds do not support this claim; neither do they point to an origin in Anatolia. However, the fact remains that key terms of Mithraic language are Greek and were translated into Latin implies and origin somehwere in the eatern Mediterranean."


I don't believe that specialist scholars would endorse this.



"The Roman Cult of Mithras: The God and His Mysteries" by Manfred Clauss, p.156-157 - "in addition with solar deities, local influences might also affect the way in which Mithras was represented. A clear example of this is the amalgamation of ideas from the cult of Attis with Mithras. ... 114. Panticapaeum/Kerch, Crimean Peninsula: terracotta figurine of Mithras, assimilated to Attis, killing the bull (V 11). Five such figurines are known; ... Date: ? second half of the first cent. BC."


Unfortunately that seems to be a misprint, since Clauss says (p.7): "The mysteries of Mithras came into being in Rome or in Ostia." and his book is entirely based around an origin in the first century AD.

As regards material above:

"It should be emphasised that the purpose of this summary account is not
to suggest that such ideas were taken over directly into the Roman mysterycult.
On the contrary, no direct continuity, either of a general kind or in
specific details, can be demonstrated between the Perso-Hellenistic worship
of Mitra and the Roman mysteries of Mithras. The oft-repeated attempts to
trace a seamless history of Mithras from the second millennium BC to the
fourth century AD simply tell us something quite general about the relative
stability, or, as it may be, flexibility, of religious ideas. We cannot account
for Roman Mithras in terms borrowed from Persian Mitra."

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Mar, 2 2011 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by roger_pearse

Interesting, and I shall have to look more at this. But I always understood that Aten was a form of Ra, which became a separate deity, rather than a deity which merged with Ra.


Right. Sorry if my grammar was misleading and made it seem that I was including Aten in with Atum & Khepri as being merged with Ra, I just meant he was another sun god. Though to be fair, I did omit Aten when I referred to them in their three composite forms.





Agreed. But "born of a virgin" is a specific idea. Once we start to say "not born normally", we're really engaged in messing with categories.


Right, fair enough.


Note the date of the publication;...


Hmmm... so it appears, I was mistaken in how I interpreted some of these references, correct? Although, the way those references described the Commagene incarnation was as though it was not the Persian version, but the precursor to the Roman version, but I guess, from what you've told me, that is also a part of Cumont's outdated thesis?

Plus I'm a little confused by this quote you added -"recent trends in the scholarship on Iranian religion, by modifying the picture of that religion prior to the birth of the western mysteries, now render a revised Cumontian scenario of east-west transfer and continuities now viable."

So does this mean Cumont's explanations are not entirely obsolete, but just under revision?

Also, and I admit I may just be splitting hairs here, but when Clauss said "The mysteries of Mithras came into being in Rome or in Ostia." are you sure he isn't just referring to the Mysteries and not the god itself? I'll go back and take a look at it on the page and see what I can gather from it, but I ask this because this would make Clauss's statement somewhat reconcilable with Rupke's assertion.
edit on 2-3-2011 by Chokemychicken because: (no reason given)



posted on Mar, 3 2011 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by Chokemychicken

Note the date of the publication;...


Hmmm... so it appears, I was mistaken in how I interpreted some of these references, correct? Although, the way those references described the Commagene incarnation was as though it was not the Persian version, but the precursor to the Roman version, but I guess, from what you've told me, that is also a part of Cumont's outdated thesis?


That's right.



Plus I'm a little confused by this quote you added -"recent trends in the scholarship on Iranian religion, by modifying the picture of that religion prior to the birth of the western mysteries, now render a revised Cumontian scenario of east-west transfer and continuities now viable."

So does this mean Cumont's explanations are not entirely obsolete, but just under revision?


I think it means that people are still toying with the idea, but that it still isn't really working. The reason, of course, is that all the ancient Mithras texts describe the god as "Persian", and wouldn't it be nice if it was so? It would be much tidier.



Also, and I admit I may just be splitting hairs here, but when Clauss said "The mysteries of Mithras came into being in Rome or in Ostia." are you sure he isn't just referring to the Mysteries and not the god itself?


I don't think so, but I could be mistaken.


I'll go back and take a look at it on the page and see what I can gather from it, but I ask this because this would make Clauss's statement somewhat reconcilable with Rupke's assertion.


The problem we all face with reading anything on Mithras is that an awful lot of people -- including scholars whose specialism is not Mithras per se-- are repeating stuff which is out of date. I've been driven to treating everything written by anyone other than a handful of scholars with a great deal of caution. They don't intend to deceive -- but the field has changed a lot since Cumont. The key is to know the primary sources, to read the most up-to-date stuff, and keep your scepticism switched on.

One area of modern work is on interpretation from astronomical observations. David Ulansey has proposed some ideas -- Roger Beck some, and there are others working on this. Myself I think it's all unevidenced tosh, but it's certain where a lot of work is being done right now.

Clauss is a good starting point for everything on modern Mithras studies.

All the best,

Roger Pearse



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 02:45 AM
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Hello again Roger, and thanks for the reply. You've been very helpful so far concerning Mithras. I have been browsing the internet for some elaboration on the Mithras-Attis terracotta for further confirmation of whether or not it is a misprint as you said, and interestingly enough I came across you again, it was in the cached discussion page for the Wikipedia article. There it appears you and several other researchers had an exchange in which, from what I can tell, it was determined that it was not shown to be a misprint for Clauss, but rather that it is a misinterpretation to conclude that this is evidence of fully developed Mithraism in the first century BC. The key relevant points, as far as I could tell, were that 1) BC is included in the date range for these carvings, but it is only the early end of the date range, which also includes up to 50 AD at its latter end, and so while it may not have been a misprint to say it was BC, it was misleading because it is not FOR CERTAIN that it is BC, it might be 50 AD, which would be more in line with all the other extant evidence. 2) This is not even for certain to be either Mithras or Attis, and has unique features that are not in line with standard Mithraic iconography. 3)Mithraism might have had its origins in the first century BC, but since all the evidence of it in its standard forms we recognize are all c.80 AD and later, any earlier forms of Mithraism would be irrelevant to the discussion of comparative mythology.

Is this a fair enough assessment of the conversation there?



posted on Mar, 4 2011 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by Chokemychicken
Hello again Roger, and thanks for the reply. You've been very helpful so far concerning Mithras. I have been browsing the internet for some elaboration on the Mithras-Attis terracotta for further confirmation of whether or not it is a misprint as you said, and interestingly enough I came across you again, it was in the cached discussion page for the Wikipedia article. There it appears you and several other researchers had an exchange in which, from what I can tell, it was determined that it was not shown to be a misprint for Clauss, but rather that it is a misinterpretation to conclude that this is evidence of fully developed Mithraism in the first century BC. The key relevant points, as far as I could tell, were that 1) BC is included in the date range for these carvings, but it is only the early end of the date range, which also includes up to 50 AD at its latter end, and so while it may not have been a misprint to say it was BC, it was misleading because it is not FOR CERTAIN that it is BC, it might be 50 AD, which would be more in line with all the other extant evidence. 2) This is not even for certain to be either Mithras or Attis, and has unique features that are not in line with standard Mithraic iconography. 3)Mithraism might have had its origins in the first century BC, but since all the evidence of it in its standard forms we recognize are all c.80 AD and later, any earlier forms of Mithraism would be irrelevant to the discussion of comparative mythology.

Is this a fair enough assessment of the conversation there?


I forgot about Mithras, there is definately alot that the youtube video brings to the surface.



posted on May, 2 2011 @ 01:19 PM
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This video will go viral on May 21st, 2011! That's why Christians think May 21st is the end.



posted on May, 2 2011 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by jayhova
This video will go viral on May 21st, 2011! That's why Christians think May 21st is the end.

I will admitt it was informative, and thanks for that update.
Also reguardless of their religious background
-please consider this is a sapiens sapiens issue- Religious misguidance as I think it will go further back then Horus. He was taught under Egyptian command under snake influence or ENKI lord of EA prince of Annunaki..
edit on 5/2/11 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)



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