I'm an agnostic with a question for the christians about your omniscient all knowing God.

Originally posted by Thesickness
reply to post by Jim Scott

 

I remember sin originated from adam and eve. My question is, If god is omniscient shouldn't he have known eve would eat from the tree and go against his will? What would be the point of even creating him and her and thus bearing us all into a world of sin and hate? Had he not created them seeing as he is omniscient he would have avoided the condemnation of millions of souls to hell. Not an attack on your faith, and thank you for the input, I just have such a hard time finding any logic in how religion is presented, its one of the reasons I have never been able to accept Christianity the many times I tried. Once again thank you for the input

The world of sin and hate is also a world of love and kindness. No one is condemned to hell if they accept that their punishment was already paid for by Christ. Rom 8:1 Those who are without the law or knowledge of Christ will still obtain mercy after death. I Pet 3:19, 4:6 Who would stand and deny it after death?

Originally posted by chr0naut
reply to post by Thesickness

 

As a parent, sometimes I play act my anger or dissapointment to my children but really, I understand them (I have been there myself) and I'm not really angry, I just want them to consider consequences.

God is love and is willing to forgive, he got tortured to death to show how far he'd go for us.

There is a verse that sums it up: "The Lord isn't slow to do what he promised, as some people think. Rather, he is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to him and change the way they think and act." 2 Peter 3:9

I also like John 3:17: For God sent His Son into the world not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

the way i like to think of it is this.

ok so you know if your gonna be a good chess player, you always have to know what your opponent is going to do or could do and this and that blah blah blah.. basically you have to plan ahead. well think of God as the master chess player. that's the beauty of his prophesies. he doesn't give time-lines, because he knows stuff is gonna go down he even knows how bad it's gonna get before he intervenes, but this is a God who is proving a point to Satan and everybody else that is watching us. that his law is the only law that can succeed it is just the way it has to be.... I'll explain that later if you like but I'd rather not go off onto a different rant.

the only time tables he has ever given us were curses(duration), and the daniel 70 week prophesy which when calculated points to beginning of Jesus' ministry 500 some odd years before it happened.

remember he was willing to save Sodom and gamora if there were only 10 good people. this place is gonna have to get alot worse before he steps in and says enough is enough.

reply to post by Thesickness


It does seem that organized religion is a system rooted in fear-based control. However, the teachings seem to line up with the same concepts of significant chunks of other religions. I wouldnt think heaven or hell are necessarily things that happen after death, but rather that are chosen in our every step here. If you think about it, given the two initial and most popular responses ("for" and "against"), a group can effect the vast majority who respond to a given result. The "for" side will mostly believe that heaven happens after death, and is therefore unattainable during life. The "against" side will mostly discard the idea of heaven and God altogether, and are therefore unattainable during life. The idea that these things might be attainable right here and now, would destroy the control churches had over vast portions of the population. Interestingly, the "religions" that promote the idea of direct consequences to our choices and actions also tend to believe in reincarnation in some form. These also tend to speak towards finding it within one self (buddhism and many others), rather than through the redemption of the church, which reduces control a great degree. They involve a personal search, which is quite important. This is directly taught in religions such as taoism, some sects of hinduism, advaita vendanta, buddhism, etc. It is indirectly taught in the organized religion of christianity, islam, judaism, etc. As "they" say, "the best way to control a population is to have them fight amongst themselves"

In this idea, the alpha and omega, the all and the nothing, is God. The term omnipresent is also used. "separation" from this God results in hell, but is an immediate repercussion as a result of a free will perspective. "heaven" or "enlightenment" would also be an lived repercussion as a result of a free will perspective. it points to the perspective-based consequences of fully comprehending the idea of "the all and the nothing," and "the kindgom of heaven is amongst you." In this context, we are that which we observe and that is a single part of "the all," or God, or within the kingdom of "heaven." Our free will perspective is just choosing differently. The heaven/hell dichotomy has pretty direct similes in concepts such as karma, especially if taken as a result experienced directly within ones life.

It could be possible that all of these different ideas are simply different conceptualizations of God, and would be a culturally influenced viewpoint on the same universe, or God. Love, kindness, compassion, are generally considered honorable things. This would be a direct derivative of the lived concept of all that is as God. The story of the garden of Eden is a culture re-telling of the initial free-will decision to separate ourselves from this God (at least for "this" thread of the story ), but only within our perspectives. Our choices will result in living in a heaven or hell. And as an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent.. "entity," or "system," we are inevitably a part of this God.

When that is taken into context, the idea of "Love God" and "Love one another as God loves you" is the concept of the experiential feeling of direct unity with a truly incredible thing. That was the most important thing, according to Jesus' testimony contained in the bible. i do follow that, though perhaps not the rest of the dogma surrounding the organized religion. Those that practice such things deeply would most certainly find their way into "heaven."

Well, thats this ones take on religion anyway. Not like God is exclusively contained within any single attempt of ours to conceptualize such systems. Not quite how i would personally go at the topic, but i see where such concepts (christian or other religions) might arise from! in the end, its all the "same thing"

If someone acts with Love and compassion as a base state of being, i do not care what conceptualization one might choose to describe the world and universe around them. they are all limited views to the true math and matter that make up the structure of even just our physical observable universe.

reply to post by sinohptik


Out of all the posts I have gotten I see eye to eye with a lot of what you said more so than the others. Ill read this again in the morning with a fresh brain so I can grasp some more knowledge/perception from it. Thanks for taking the time to give me your opinion in a well thought out way. Very articulating. Thanks for the input

Originally posted by Thesickness
Omniscient god = He knows where your going before you make the choice, thus no free will, its all preset. Free will god = We really do determine the final outcome, but this means he isn't omniscient, how can a god not be omniscient?

congrats on your first post!

i think you might have things a bit mixed up.
i just want to help clarify so pardon me if i'm wrong.

but you stated that free will isn't present because God knows what you're going to do before you make the choice to do so. God being omniscient doesn't mean he's controlling our actions. i don't see the connection you're making. We have free will to do whatever we want. We do determine the final outcome. He just knows what that is...before we do.

Omniscient god = He knows where your going before you make the choice, thus no free will, its all preset. Free will god = We really do determine the final outcome, but this means he isn't omniscient, how can a god not be omniscient?

There is nothing unusual with hypothetical circumstances being in conflict with defining omniscient based on its etymology, to know everything.

Q. Hi, God. What is the formula for the area of a four-sided triangle?

A. I don't know.

Clearly, in order to mean anything, omniscient must mean something else than "able to answer definitely any question."

By an amazing coincidence, that is the claim. God knows everything that it is logically possible to know. That includes consistency with his other attributes. God does not know the weight of that rock that he can't lift.

If, indeed, free will were logically incompatible with God knowing the answer to some question, then God would not know the answer to that question, just as other logical considerations prevent God knowing how to compute the area of a four-sided triangle.

The principle involved has nothing to do with God, or theology. A contradictory statement says nothing. Therefore, a contradictory claim is no claim at all. It doesn't matter what the claim is supposed to be about; "supposed to be," since, as noted, a contradictory claim isn't "about" anything. It has no meaning whatsoever.

Personally, I do not think perfect predictability implies lack of free will. A reasonable person should be very predictable. If you know my preferences, beliefs and the options available to me, and if I am rational, then your performance in guessing my choices should exactly match my own performance in making those choices. That is, you would have perfect knowledge of my choices, and yet I would have free will.

I am agnostic, BTW. I don't take any of the above as an argument "for" a certain conception of God. I think it is simply clarifying what the claim about this God actually is.

-

Originally posted by slowisfast

but you stated that free will isn't present because God knows what you're going to do before you make the choice to do so. God being omniscient doesn't mean he's controlling our actions. i don't see the connection you're making. We have free will to do whatever we want. We do determine the final outcome. He just knows what that is...before we do.

I think that Omniscience and free will are incompatible.
We do not have the free will to do whatever we want;
we can only do what God knows we will do.
Free will is an illusion.

In order for God to know what will happen in the future, the nature and sequence of future events must be fixed and invariant from his perspective.
Otherwise, God could not know with any certainty what course history will ultimately take.

The question is:
"Is it possible to do anything different other than what God has foreseen?"

if the answer is "yes" then that negates the "infallibility" of the god
if the answer is "no" then that negates the "free will" of man.
.

reply to post by chr0naut


No such thing as free will.

So does God guide children TO harm when they are hit by a speeding car while playing in there neighborhood?

reply to post by Thesickness


The belief in sin is the cause of sin. Without the word sin (humans are the only things on earth who have language), would there, could there, be sin? Do we look at the way animals behave and call them sinners? No, it's nature!!!
When it comes to free will, if it feels like there is then use it.
Really though, there is no free will.

Our true nature is a wordless state. Born without words, ideas, concepts. Born free. Look at a baby, god is still shining brightly.
Education, indoctrination, beliefs, ideas and concepts (all made out of words) are layered over the real you. This is knowledge. Knowledge is something learned and it is prized very highly in the world in which we live. Strange then that it was the tree that Eve ate from, that got her banished from paradise. Still living in the garden of Eden, Eve could no longer be part of god because now she could judge. Just by having words and meanings, a whole other world was opened up. No longer was there this, but there was that. More than two separates us from god. But that is just a belief. We can never be separate from god, it is all god. God is felt here and now, omnipresent (present moment), all knowing (omniscient) present (pre-sent), it comes through you not from you. Who is it that is present, here now, what is this? Without words.

reply to post by Thesickness

All my life I heard the christian god is an omniscient all knowing and loving god. I have also heard he grants his children free will to make the choice if they go to hell or heaven by accepting him as their savior or denying him. Here lies the question. God from what I was taught, being omniscient and loving, knows everything before it happens. Thus being omniscient aka all knowing. He says we have free will to make the choice between salvation and damnation.

Who says God is omniscience??? This is simply the way a group of humans have tried to describe something they can not fully understand. How can someone actually describe God? Wouldn't you have to have complete knowledge of God in order to accurately describe God? So the only way someone could describe God and completely understand that definition would be to be God.

I think it is just a way that people attempt to understand God...to understand something that seems infinite...and can't accurately find a way to describe it.



However...I will entertain your question with a little thought scenario...maybe (MAYBE)...God is omniscience and also allows people to have free will to make their own choices. Seems like a paradox...but maybe not.

Let's imagine that life as a series of decisions...like a maze which will ultimately lead to the end of each individuals path. Now unlike a traditonal maze that is just a finite series of left or right turns...let's imagine that there are infinite decision points in this maze of life...and at each decision point there are infinite choices. God's omniscience would come into play in knowing all of these "infinite" decision points and all the outcomes of each "infinite" choices that are made. So God could know exactly how your life could turn out..."infinite" possibilites of ways your life can turn out...but the CHOICES are left up to you.

This would also work with the question about prayer...many people pray for guidance on their choices in life...if God knows every possible end point of all the "infinite" paths of this maze...than God could help guide you on the path you are wishing for...maybe later down the road that path will be good for you...maybe bad...who knows. And miracles...where it seems like life is leading you down one path, and that nothing in reality can change that course....maybe it is simple God picking you up...and placing you on another path in the maze.


Now do I believe this is how things work...no...maybe...I don't know. But it is fun to think about.

I have been a Christian for a year now.. and i don't know everything. To be quite honest, there are probably Athiests that know more about the Bible than i do. That's fine.. discovering the answers to your questions takes a while but is very worthwhile.

But i had this exact question.. and i have just found the answer. You see.. we have "free will" as you said. We have the free will to choose to accept Jesus Christ or to reject him. God doesn't MAKE us do anything we don't want to do. So.. when i look at my life, i try to live for GOD's WILL. That is MY decision.. i could easily leave my home and live a life of revelry. But i know that it doesn't please God. The love i have in my heart for my creator is growing day by day, and because of the love i have for Him, it makes me want to live how He would want me to live. This is where blessings start pouring in. I have had so many blessings this past year, and it's because of my free will to choose to live God's will for me.

Do you follow me at all??

So, God didn't create us to just throw us out and make an observation of us. The short answer to the question “why did God create us?” is “for His pleasure.” Revelation 4:11 says, “You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.” Colossians 1:16 reiterates the point: “All things were created by Him and for Him.” Being created for God’s pleasure does not mean humanity was made to entertain God or provide Him with amusement. God is a creative Being, and it gives Him pleasure to create. God is a personal Being, and it gives Him pleasure to have other beings He can have a genuine relationship with.

Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them. As God, He needs nothing. In all eternity past, He felt no loneliness, so He was not looking for a “friend.” He loves us, but this is not the same as needing us. If we had never existed, God would still be God—the unchanging One (Malachi 3:6). The I AM (Exodus 3:14) was never dissatisfied with His own eternal existence. When He made the universe, He did what pleased Himself, and since God is perfect, His action was perfect. “It was very good” (Genesis 1:31).

Also, God did not create “peers” or beings equal to Himself. Logically, He could not do so. If God were to create another being of equal power, intelligence, and perfection, then He would cease to be the one true God for the simple reason that there would be two gods—and that would be an impossibility. “The LORD is God; besides him there is no other” (Deuteronomy 4:35). Anything that God creates must of necessity be lesser than He. The thing made can never be greater than, or as great as, the One who made it.

Recognizing the complete sovereignty and holiness of God, we are amazed that He would take man and crown him “with glory and honor” (Psalm 8:5) and that He would condescend to call us “friends” (John 15:14-15). Why did God create us? God created us for His pleasure and so that we, as His creation, would have the pleasure of knowing Him.

It is when we fall into sin and start believing the lies that satan has created that taints man. A tainted man by satan is not in the image of God. But that is why God sent His one and only son to die for our sins (John 3:16) so that we could be REDEEMED from all the wrong doing we have done, and return to how God originally created us to be.

reply to post by Thesickness


Which is why that story, if taken literally (which it shouldn't be), is one of deception and deceit. However the snake in the tale is not only the beguiling serpent, but the omniscient god. The god in this tale knows all and create beings without knowledge of good and evil. It is key to remember that gods word is neutral to these beings as the decernment between good and evil has not been achieved. A god, knowing the outcome of the situation before hand places two unwitting beings into a situation where the "thing to do" is the most recent words that they have heard. The serpent whispers to eve who takes this new knowledge as fact, as she can not tell between good and evil, partakes of the tree and convinces Adam to as well. This is when the airheads actually learn of the difference between good and evil. Now an omniscient god, knowing the outcome beforehand, punishes beings who had no idea of their wrong doings until after the fact. In fact god actually talks to the other gods (yes there are others if you actually read genesis) and bans the two from the garden in a fear that they become "like us"

Regardless of the simple story of obedience that is full of holes...the idea of an omniscient god who actually sends creations that didn't ask to be created to heaven or hell signifies a few things

One, there is know free will, as all actions and events are predetermined

Two, such a god is either an immature asshole or all of these experiences have nothing to do with our growth but only Gods growth

reply to post by Jim Scott


Very well said concern the creation of Adam and Eve. Made in perfection to last for all eternity; they chose to disobey the commands of God. Once done, they issued into their existence, IMPERFECTION aka A Fallen Nature. Adam is the Federal Headship of all mankind. His act ushered into humanity an imperfect nature aka corruption,death, suffering and sin. All of humanity after Adam was
MADE IN ADAM'S IMAGE, NOT GOD. ALL DECENDANTS, ALL HUMANITY, MUST SUFFER CORRUPTION. WE NO LONGER HAD CLAIM TO THE GARDEN OF EDEN'S PERFECTION REALITY.

Once Sin entered into their reality, God could no longer remain in fellowship and contact with sin. He provided for them an immediate method of salvation!
God, sacrificed an animal, to provide clothing. This blood sacrifice was the symbol and method to provide forgiveness for humanity. Throughout the Old Testament, an offering of a blood sacrifice was how God designed a favorable and acceptable method of praise and sin remission. Cain and Able, the story of the first murder, was prompted by Cain who refused to honor God by the proscribed Animal sacrifice. God told Cain to do it over. Out of anger Cain killed his own brother because God accepted his blood sacrifice. He (Cain) refused and was convicted of murder. He was banished for all time.

Jesus Christ, is God the Father's, perfect method of submitting a "perfect" unblemished blood sacrifice, back to Himself. Jesus, was completely sinless. His own decision to complete this work shows how his sacrifice was totally acceptable as PAYMENT FOR ALL SINS for mankind. However, to obtain this remission of sins, a person must accept in FAITH that Jesus was the Son of God the Father. God the Father, our creator, in cooperation with your parents, created you. He gives you an option to accept His method or not. God the Father does not want robots or witless devotion. He wants a PERSONAL relationship, a family relationship with YOU! That means everyone He creates. It's up to us to acknowledge this and accept it's terms. Your salvation, your sins forgiven your relationship to your Creator is up to you.

Believe it ! or not! Eternity is a very long time and beyond time. I choose to live with God than without Him. Of course, if you don't accept Him then you will choose what??? What dire things will happen or not happen to you? Maybe you'll be recycled into a cricket or an endless round of transformations.
Maybe is just a void and you dissipate into nothingness? Wow, better party now, cause it completely over right?

The very act of your question is a call from God to come to him. Your questions are a way for you to dig deeper and find out the mysteries of God's Love and Mercy. God is calling you to come to Him. He created you. He wants you to be an "heir" to His eternal Kingdom. He wants you to experience His everlasting love and eternal kinship. Why don't you accept it? What are you afraid of?

Great first post and I agree at the sentiment.
If God created us, he gave us greed and avarice etc into our make up - and then decided not to let us use it. Makes no sense whatsoever
Then you don't have to dig far into the bible to find nonsense. Hitler tries to exterminate the Jews and is seen [rightly] as one of the evilest man on the planet. God decides to kill every man, woman and child [and every other creature bar two of each] by a giant flood - barring one family [Noah] and his followers think this is perfectly okay behaviour. So multi genocide is okay?

Sex the ultimate sin and yet ... it is the ultimate joy

Where is the sense in God making people feel guilty about procreating? So nobody procreates and we all doe put as a race - again makes absolutely no sense.

Mother Nature had it right making it an enjoyable event, even if God is way off the mark

Originally posted by rstregooski
In my opinion, God, or the Bible is nothing of what the majority of people think it is...
If you take a second to listen to this clip it will give you a totally different perspective (mindblowing)..

www.youtube.com...

something to think about...

good thread o.p.
watched it ;even some one as ignorant of religious teaching as I am; has heard the story of "passover"...the old testament story where Jews mark ed their doors so Gods angel of death would "passover them andkill pharoahs firstborn through out the cityas moses predicted.
I really think mr hairclub for pedophiles is trying too hard to make a connection here.

Personally; i gotta' go with George on this one

Good question... I believe that nobody will be comdemned to eternal damnation. If you were a nostic instead, you would probably be aware of the alternative nostic texts. One, i believe written by David, eludes to the idea that once every person who ever has or will exist will be enlightened to the truths of our creator, which is briefly described in Revelation. Once that happens, everyone will therefore long for the same salvation granted to the 'saved' (whoever that may be). Then, all of the saved will look upon the 'unsaved' with grace and essentially ask God the same question you just asked. Then all of the 'unsaved' will be granted the grace of God. VERY progressive for any relgion, i know. But you question leads to a more specific question: Are we born with salvation, from which some eventually fall OR are we all born condemned, then have to obtain salvation?

reply to post by Marulo


I believe I have free will.

Did God guide the child in your analogy to harm, or is the harm a consequence of decisions and physics?

Since you concieved the analogy, did you guide the child to harm?

Perhaps God is more interested in our total development, rather than the respiration rate of our cells.

From a logical standpoint, just because god knows what will happen, doesn't mean that we don't still make the choice. Let's say you had a psychic vision of someone getting hit by a bus, and you told them and they thought you were crazy and still walked across the same street from your vision. you knew what was going to happen and even told them, but they chose to cross anyway, thinking you were crazy. God may know that a newborn baby will die and go to hell, but that baby still makes all of the choices along the way to lead them there. If god were to intervene and "save" that newborn, damned baby, he would be taking away its freewill.
That being said, i don't believe that we are capable of understanding god, or any facet of it. also, we exist in this state whether or not we understand why god put us here / allows us to be here.