I'm an agnostic with a question for the christians about your omniscient all knowing God.

This is a serious question and not meant to spawn any hatred to Christians or anyone. This is also my first thread so be gentle. All my life I heard the christian god is an omniscient all knowing and loving god. I have also heard he grants his children free will to make the choice if they go to hell or heaven by accepting him as their savior or denying him. Here lies the question. God from what I was taught, being omniscient and loving, knows everything before it happens. Thus being omniscient aka all knowing. He says we have free will to make the choice between salvation and damnation.

How is that true if he already knows whats going to happen when he creates us? If he is truly omniscient shouldn't he already know where we will end up as he is making us? Thus giving us a predetermined resting place? If this is true how can he be considered a loving god? How can a loving omniscient god create someone who he knows will do nothing but burn in hell in the end? Where is the free will? How can you have one without the other? Omniscient god = He knows where your going before you make the choice, thus no free will, its all preset. Free will god = We really do determine the final outcome, but this means he isn't omniscient, how can a god not be omniscient?

This is the reason I'm an agnostic. I see no logic in this, nor any other religion I find. Anyone is free to discuss on this, no matter if you want to yell at me because I went against you belief, or if you want to come explain to me your thoughts on it as a christian or any fellow agnostics or atheist or anyone for that matter wants to weigh in, please come and do so. If it was a hard read I'm sorry, it was my first post and I tend to type faster than I read.

Peace and love.

In my opinion, God, or the Bible is nothing of what the majority of people think it is...
If you take a second to listen to this clip it will give you a totally different perspective (mindblowing)..

www.youtube.com...

something to think about...

reply to post by rstregooski


Interesting. I had a hard time following at first, I couldn't understand him, maybe he wasn't articulating well or maybe it was just me, idk but I got it the second go around. Food for thought though. Thanks for the input.

your comments make you sound more like an atheist. are you sure agnostic is the right term here?

atheism.about.com...

just curious why you think what you describe is agnosticism as opposed to atheism.

there are also agnostic atheists!

hard bag to bundle

Congratulations on your first thread! The questions you ask have been asked by many people through time. Including Christians. Unfortunately I do not have the answers for you, only for myself. I am a Christian, to be a Christian is an act of faith, not logic. I do not want to argue and I don't think we can ever come to an agreement, but I would like to think that our differing views on Christianity is no reason we cannot agree to disagree. I am providing a link, from considerably better minds than my own, perhaps it will give you at least some information.

carm.org...

Asking questions is always a good thing, and opening dialog is also good.

Maybe he chooses not to know?

reply to post by Thesickness


Slow down for a second! You're listing to Christian dogma! God has not left non-Jews without means of receiving forgiveness of sins. Minimally, non-Jews are to live by moral and civil rules and establish the proper institutions necessary to uphold the basic structure of society. For example, a tone of righteousness and mercy is to be set in relationships of human to human and human to animal life in the command to abstain from eating flesh from a living animal (Genesis 9:4) and in having responsibility to maintain the sanctity of life, whether one's own or another person's (Genesis 9:5-6). On a deeper spiritual level, non-Jews may also establish a personal relationship with God (2 Kings 5:15-18) and find remission of sin through sincere repentance (Jonah 3:5-10, Daniel 4:27). there are many views because the afterlife isn't described in Judaism. Most Jews don't focus on the afterlife, we let G-d worry about that. Jews focus on the here-and-now: keeping G-d's commandments, studying Torah, caring for others and helping to repair the world.

Some Jews believe that when someone dies and they are righteous, we go to join G-d immediately. If we aren't righteous they spend a short time away from G-d.

Some Jews believe that we enter a sleep-like state until the Messiah/Messianic age and then join in the new world to come.

Some Jews believe in reincarnation until the Messiah/Messianic age or until one becomes righteous enough to join G-d.

Jews do NOT believe in an eternal torment/hell. That would not be part of the righteous plan of a loving G-d. There is NO discussion or description of “hell” in the Jewish Tanakh. Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of Questions. Let us ask the following about the alleged truly man-truly god Jesus. What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. By definition, not mystery, the everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose: "For I the Lord do not change" (Malachi 3:6). Did Jesus' flesh dwell in safety after his death? 1 Peter 3:18 states Jesus was "put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit." 1 Corinthians 15:44-45 claims Jesus was "raised a spiritual body," that is, he "became a life-giving spirit." No mention of the survival of the flesh is alluded to. In Acts 2:31, it is claimed Peter stated that following the alleged resurrection Jesus' body did not see decay. Paul is alleged to have also made this claim (Acts 13:34-37). However, unless Jesus' body never underwent "decay" during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo "decay" then he was not truly human.

reply to post by okamitengu


Its such a broad field, Ive always classified myself as agnostic, Idk its the proper terminology. I don't believe in any organized religion. That being said, I'm not against the idea of a higher power because I can't prove that there isn't one. Maybe I'm just spiritual, its a confusing journey no matter what path you take, as for now though, that title is what im most comfortable with. Thanks for the input.

reply to post by Iamschist


Thanks for the link, and congrats to you on finding your faith and sticking with it! Nothing against that, I have nothing against the people of any religion, I would never try to take away something that someone truly believes in, thats a horrible thing to do. Thanks for the link, Ill save it and look it over when I have more time. Thank you for your input

reply to post by FrenchFryRio


Hmm. Food for thought


Makes sense that way. Ill look into it slowly over time, no matter what belief set I have, Ill never stop searching for more knowledge. Thanks for the thought provoking input.

reply to post by Thesickness


Of course! Remember everything comes from God! Even the Sikhism faith has figured this out!

The Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ, nor do they believe he will save them.

Even though Jesus Christ fulfilled all of the prophecy's from the Old Jewish Testament that
were required for him to show them he was the true Messiah.

Many Jews are still waiting for some other new Messiah, since the original was not to their liking

I am a parent and sometimes I have to do things that will make my kids uncomfortable to guide them from harm. I think there is that about God, the parent bit.

Also, if you were "cotton wool"ed, pleasured and insulated from harm, would you achieve as you no doubt do?

Now take this beyond the individual, perhaps even beyond the planet, and see a universe struggling against hardships which form them/it in particular ways. Survival of the fittest is a harsh discipline. Perhaps, so too, is emergence of the survived.

I can't concieve of a God who would make just more of the same stuff that oxidizes rusts & dies. There is an (eternal?) stretch to achieve & improve. A joy in overcoming. If you actually read some sort of scriptural text you'l soon begin to catch the idea.

Our free will gives us the capability to do wrong. God may know what we choose, but we don't. Take away that free will and we would not be human, just an organic machine, purposeless & futile. I'm pretty sure God does NOT want that.

what does knowing what your choices are have to do with what choices you make. they are independent of each other.

and since God knows what your choices are going to be, you can relinquish your free will to Him and have Him help you when you are at crossroads. but even then you'll feel God helping you and you can turn away from His advice and guidance.

God will never force any choice on you.

I understand your feelings and your question on this subject. Please let me comment to clarify the issue.

Adam and Eve were made perfect when placed in the garden. They could have been free will, or not free will. They were given free will to obey or disobey. They chose to disobey. Their disobedience brought death to all. Then, Adam and Eve chose to multiply and replenish the Earth. Their choice gave you a body and a spirit, as the spirit is made in the womb (Zech 12:1). Blame Adam and Eve, not God.

Did God know Adam and Eve would make the wrong choice? How did that wrong choice come about? God specifically told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam, however, lied to Eve and told her that if she touched it she would die. Eve, then seeing that the serpent was not dead, chose to not believe Adam. She did not hear it from God.

Hence, the problem was created by Adam and Eve. Since then, bodies and spirits have been created by reproduction.

Your question comes down to two possibilities: (1) should God step in and stop human reproduction or (2) should God save mankind from their disobedience. God chose to provide an escape from punishment by taking the punishment on Himself. In so doing, He could also honor the commandment for the humans to multiply and replenish the Earth, thereby not abrogating his commandments.

Your premise was wrong. God did not create man solely with the knowledge that he would fail and continue to fail. God created man and provided forgiveness for the failure, quite different than being an unjust God. Justice is served on man, but all punishment is taken by Christ and forgiveness is freely given to man.

You have to ask for it. If you find it too hard to ask for forgiveness, it sounds like pride is your problem. Pride cometh before the fall. God loves a broken heart and a contrite spirit. God places humility high on his list. If you want to see God and walk with Him, you will have to drop to your face on the ground first.

Originally posted by FrenchFryRio
reply to post by Thesickness

 

What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. .

The process of Jesus undoing the sin of man was this: In the beginning, a virgin man (Adam) gave birth (taken out of man) to a woman (Eve) who was disobedient and caused the fall of mankind, but in Christ we see a virgin woman (Mary) gave birth (taken out of woman) to a man (Jesus) who was obedient and paid for the redemption of mankind.

The body of Jesus was fully man, and died on the cross. The spirit of Jesus was fully God, and lived on after the death of the body on the cross. The body was decaying in the tomb over the period of 3 days, was given life by God via resurrection, and lives now. His body was not immortal before the resurrection. It was like yours and mine. Likewise, you and I will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye from death unto life.

reply to post by chr0naut


Don't get me wrong, I understand the hardships in life, from a survival of the fittest stand point. I can see how even a loving god would want to put us in these situations of hardship at times, for challenge and adversity when overcome breeds excellence. Where is the love in a god creating a child he knows is condemned to hell before he even knows how to walk though? Thank you for your input

Originally posted by Slan1
The Jews do not believe in Jesus Christ, nor do they believe he will save them.

Even though Jesus Christ fulfilled all of the prophecy's from the Old Jewish Testament that
were required for him to show them he was the true Messiah.

Many Jews are still waiting for some other new Messiah, since the original was not to their liking

Part of the problem is that Christians are constantly reminding them that they killed Him. Frankly, I'm glad they killed Him. That's the only way we would all be saved.

reply to post by Jim Scott


I remember sin originated from adam and eve. My question is, If god is omniscient shouldn't he have known eve would eat from the tree and go against his will? What would be the point of even creating him and her and thus bearing us all into a world of sin and hate? Had he not created them seeing as he is omniscient he would have avoided the condemnation of millions of souls to hell. Not an attack on your faith, and thank you for the input, I just have such a hard time finding any logic in how religion is presented, its one of the reasons I have never been able to accept Christianity the many times I tried. Once again thank you for the input

reply to post by Thesickness


As a parent, sometimes I play act my anger or dissapointment to my children but really, I understand them (I have been there myself) and I'm not really angry, I just want them to consider consequences.

God is love and is willing to forgive, he got tortured to death to show how far he'd go for us.

There is a verse that sums it up: "The Lord isn't slow to do what he promised, as some people think. Rather, he is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to him and change the way they think and act." 2 Peter 3:9