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Opting Out Of The System

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posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by ExPostFacto
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Well, this is how government got so damn big. They create government jobs to fill the gap of unemployed workers in the private sector. It appears the government does things so inefficiently simply to make more jobs. And I might mention corporations use this as a bargaining chip to get tax breaks. They offer to bring in 200 jobs to a city for massive tax breaks or free land. Government simply bends over backwards to accommodate the businesses needs. However, when I go to the DMV to pay my portion of road taxes I get a rude clerk and a pat down by a security guard at the door. Government's priorities are backwards, in my opinion. They represent business interests not the individual.


Yes, the tax break thing is how big business muscles out competitors.

They use the government to protect their company from competition.

If you spend any time looking at federal legislation, you'll realize that ALL the laws serve this one singular purpose.




posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
You have a very skewed vie of the world around you. Now, if you're curious about what a liberal actually thinks about something, maybe if you presented it without the whole "LIBERALS ARE EVIL BOOGA BOOGA!" nonsense, I could give you some answers.


I consider violent theft to be evil.

Apparently you are OK with this.

Thus, our difference of opinion.

Guns should only be used to defend property, not to take it.



edit on 15-2-2011 by mnemeth1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Again with the tired soundbites. Tell you what, when I get back home, i'll come back and feed your ego by explaining reality to you, kay? 'Till thn, have fun stewing in your assorted juices



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Again with the tired soundbites. Tell you what, when I get back home, i'll come back and feed your ego by explaining reality to you, kay? 'Till thn, have fun stewing in your assorted juices


Does your reality include Star Trek replicators and perfectly benevolent all-knowing political leaders?



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
It's like saying we need to round everyone up in a huge prison so we can hire a buttload of security positions. We're creating jobs!


I think you just described a major motivation for the government's "war on drugs". Gotta love that prison-industrial complex, eh?



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by NthOther

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
It's like saying we need to round everyone up in a huge prison so we can hire a buttload of security positions. We're creating jobs!


I think you just described a major motivation for the government's "war on drugs". Gotta love that prison-industrial complex, eh?


The more we ban, the more jobs we can create.

Clearly this logic is infallible and irrefutable.

I'm personally in favor of banning walking in order to promote the use of public transportation.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1
I consider violent theft to be evil.

Apparently you are OK with this.


weren't you just talking about ad hominem? Ah well.

No, "violent theft" (any theft, really) is not something I regard to be moral. However, this is important - Taxes are not theft.

Taxes are payment of debt. You are the beneficiary of a heavily structured and specialized society. This society only functions when there is a communal pool of wealth to draw from to bolster and repair where needed - that pool would be the state / national treasuries. When you drive, you are incurring a cost on your society. When you build, you are incurring a cost on society. When you use currency, you are incurring a cost on society. When you use your political or legal rights, you incur a cost on your society. These costs are paid for by taxes.

Since income and social costs are not always relative (though they usually are) a pay-as-you-go system is not especially feasible. A person with low income who must commute to the next town over to work wouldn't be able to afford road tolls. Thus, taxes help subsidize costs for everyone paying into the community treasury; everyone, from the company that makes heavy use of the infrastructure of society, to poor ol' Joe commuting to Hoboken, thus pays less in taxes for a service than they would if that service were pay-per-use.

If you participate in this society, take advantage of its infrastructure, and do not chip in for its upkeep and function, then in effect you are the one committing theft; receipt of service sans payment.

"But," you may state, "I don't have any kids, why should I pay for the local public school?" Of course there's any other number of institutions or programs you could ask this about, but I'll go with a school, since I hear it most often. You want to invest in the local school because that school benefits you more than its absence would. Public education might not be the best in the world (in part due to funding...) but most children who go to school learn to read and to write, which is, I'm sure you'll agree, necessary for most vocations. This means that your potential co-workers or employees are less likely to be as useless as a sack of hammers which is net benefit to your business. If you're not set to work with the next generation, that school frees up their parents to work, rather than forcing them to conduct their child's education at home. The subsidized cost also allows said parents more money to spend in the private sector. Also, having a school nearby is a prime selling point for families moving into an area, and is often a key factor for retaining them in the area, thus providing you with more and better employees / customers

The same holds true for most of these other programs and institutions you may not personally use; you still gain benefit from them.

"Well, okay social contracts and all, but I didn't sign anything when I was born; what if I want to opt out?"
Feel free. This requires the abandonment of society, of course, but let's be honest; "civilization" has only made up the last 0.4% of human history; we're well-suited to an avoidant hunter-gatherer existence. Just make sure you stay off other people's property, or move to a nation-state that recognizes free movement and subsistence rights



Thus, our difference of opinion.


Well, it's not so much a "difference of opinion" as being my fact-based argument against your invective-based one.


Guns should only be used to defend property, not to take it.


Exactly; though in the cases that you're pinching your nose about, it's protecting common wealth against freeloaders and thieves. Of course, the guns don't come out until the thief starts shooting first. otherwise it's a perfectly peaceful legal redress of debt and grievances.

Welcome to civilization, Conan. This isn't Cimmeria anymore.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Again with the tired soundbites. Tell you what, when I get back home, i'll come back and feed your ego by explaining reality to you, kay? 'Till thn, have fun stewing in your assorted juices


Does your reality include Star Trek replicators and perfectly benevolent all-knowing political leaders?



Nope, I'm not a Libertarian. Utopia isn't something I buy into.



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 11:08 PM
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Excellent post mnemeth1! Don't worry the freedom market is heading for a huge correction soon as it has been manipulated for too long now. The free market always wins in the end



posted on Feb, 15 2011 @ 11:51 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Ah yes. The neoliberal market voodoo. The worse things are, the better they'll get, just so long as we keep doing the same thing over and over again!
Just ask Chile!



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 12:39 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


Explanation: S&F!

OL is slightly left of center politically and therefor a pinko, BUT I'm actually a conservative 1st, in that family comes 1st, as without it what do you have and YET, I'm quite liberal on how I define what family is to and for me! Liberty requires the whole system to favour goodness and being good is being good when no one is there except oneself as ones own bosscop/taskmaster to have authoritive oversight of those actions and attitudes. Its called being MATURE!

Personal Disclosure: Your a danger to everything by pure fact of your existence and I'll explain that logically so here that goes...

I was just in mental asylum for a whole week and OL noticed a sign for the vistors saying what could and could no be brought into the ward and basically why and there were 2 things that stood out A] visitors with any sharp objects or possesions because they are a potential weapon [tooth and claw is what OL realized must also count] AND B] vistors who were armed with weapons [2 arms with fists let alone legs and feet eh well thats what OL realized] and that all such vistors possesing such items would not be allowed in the ward and the police would be called!

That that was required in mental asylum is self evident...but my extreme version of maybe not so much!


Now thats what was written with my additions taking that to the Nth degree extreme. That extreme was never upheld but just becuase it wasn't doesn't mean someone dumb like me can't come up with stupid extreme version that still lives to the letter of the law whilst ignoring the spirit of Justice completely.

Yes you can opt out but only if you die and even the TPTB will STILL tax you and make a profit off your dead carcass!

The question I think you are ultimately possing is a moral one of "Go with the Flow? Or Row against it?"!!!

The answer generally is Row as who is in charge ultimately of ones own course through life but oneself [even as an infant we make life changing choices inherently and unconsiously] but the answer specifically is Flow as per ones local environment dictates and wait and see and Row when and where required and this in an engineering sense saves time and effort and also works that brilliant thing we have called a human mind... its creative and intelligent... we don't call ourselves double wise [homo sapiens sapiens] for no particular reason OK!


P.S. Who cares how much they tax you even if its 100% / annum as long as you get everything you need and then a few wants thrown in on top also on an per annum basis?


edit on 16-2-2011 by OmegaLogos because: Edited spelling soz




posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Taxes are not theft.


LOL



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Ah yes. The neoliberal market voodoo. The worse things are, the better they'll get, just so long as we keep doing the same thing over and over again!
Just ask Chile!


Ahh don't you just love labels that falsely characterize...


You are right about one thing as long as we keep doing the same things we are currently doing in a centralized economy managed at gun point the worse it will get. However I know this is not exactly what you meant, still it will get better when people get fed up and correct the situation and that is how a free market works in all aspects of any society. Right now there is no free market.

There is no voodo in a true free market as you falsey characterise, and they are proven to work in history. There is only full freedom of choice to participate or not. If you think that is some false voodo it only shows how indoctrinated with media BS you really are. We have not had anything near a free market 70 years.

Government intervention has led us to the brink of disaster we are currently facing, yet the mentally challenged can't seem to make the connection that our current situation is due to precisely this ever increasing government intervention and ignorantly claim that more of what caused the problem is the solution... Must be the fluoride in the water or something...



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 12:51 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 





Taxes are not theft.


Please do define theft for us then as I am dying to hear this explanation.



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by mnemeth1

-his share of police services


Give it up

You have the wonderful position of casting fantasy scenarios without having to back them up with reality

With the simple concept of PRIVATE POLICE

you crash and burn, you and I have done it -

Money dictating justice is OLIGARCHICAL in nature

Having Private forces become the governing body of a society is a problem we already face. You think
these entities will not find a new method to implement the same system of profit?

Incarcerating people as a PROFIT MOTIVE leads to many prisoners - pair this with an incentive given to Private Police officers to up their sales quota???

Do you ever wonder why entire STATES in Mexico are virtually controlled by a single cartel?

Because that is how it works, there is only one top dog, "he" dictates, the rest listen

Let us hear how two contestants in a legal battle are safe from corrupt judges -

Lets hear it -

I will respond and apply the same logic I always do to your whimsies; you will take yer ball and go home.



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 01:02 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


AND ...

reply to post by hawkiye
 


Explanation: Did money exist before you ever did... if yes then its not yoursand your just ultimately borrowing it from the game environment! So you are playing a game and any credit you have stored has no garantee's of retaining any real percieved value beyond the goodwill at face value of the economic societies citizens you reside alongside! If you want to be that selfish and say the money is yours totally... then go create your own and see how far you can trade with it and how often etc. and at what cost to benefit ratio etc???


Personal Disclosure: Why be that selfish and demand an economy between you and anyone or anything beyond what the universe endorses you can obtain for yourself by force already. Oh thats right... my bad! I forgot the rape and pillage bit of conquest!



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 01:07 AM
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reply to post by Janky Red
 



Money dictating justice is OLIGARCHICAL in nature


Which is what we have now with no accountability.


Having Private forces become the governing body of a society is a problem we already face. You think these entities will not find a new method to implement the same system of profit?


Private forces will not be governing society people will. this shows your lack of understanding. privates forces will have no power or authority to impose thier will on society like current police do. They will only protect thier clients. Current entities will but cut out of it. The only incentive private police will have will be to protect thier clients just like they do now. Housing prisoners will no longer be profitable in extracting ever more from the tax base theft scheme. And people will not be forced to buy a product they don't need or want.


Incarcerating people as a PROFIT MOTIVE leads to many prisoners - pair this with an incentive given to Private Police officers to up their sales quota???


Only in the current system not in a private one. See above.


Do you ever wonder why entire STATES in Mexico are virtually controlled by a single cartel?


Because Mexico is not free and very much controlled by the corrupt state who is in the pockets of the cartels who have gotten rich because the state has made drugs illegal driving prices way up. More freedom will always facilitate more safety.

People like you keep calling for more of the same. As if heavy regulation is the answer just don't have enough of it. Government is a monopoly on force and that force is for hire to the highest bidder. Mexico illustrates that better then the US. You are looking at the future of the US in Mexico if we continue on this path.


Because that is how it works, there is only one top dog, "he" dictates, the rest listen


Which is why he is saying we need to get rid of the top dog i.e government intervention in this case, see above.


Let us hear how two contestants in a legal battle are safe from corrupt judges -

Lets hear it


Because in a free market the contestants will have a choice to choose from more then one judge and will choose the one that has the best reputation of being fair and just, corrupt judges will not be able to stay in business. Why is freedom of choice being the fairest method in all situations so hard to rap your mind around?



edit on 16-2-2011 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-2-2011 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-2-2011 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)

edit on 16-2-2011 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I see that the depth of your argument is truly limitless, good sir. Really, this is the best you can manage?

Taxes are theft in the same way that sex is rape.



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 02:23 AM
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Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by mnemeth1
 


I see that the depth of your argument is truly limitless, good sir. Really, this is the best you can manage?

Taxes are theft in the same way that sex is rape.


Please give us your definitions of theft an rape.



posted on Feb, 16 2011 @ 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Ah yes. The neoliberal market voodoo. The worse things are, the better they'll get, just so long as we keep doing the same thing over and over again!
Just ask Chile!


Ahh don't you just love labels that falsely characterize...


Nope. Which is why I don't use them.


You are right about one thing as long as we keep doing the same things we are currently doing in a centralized economy managed at gun point the worse it will get.


First off, the United States has been decentralizing for decades now, selling off former state - i.e., public - possessions for pennies to the dollar. We've been steadily deregulating businesses, we've been removing protections and trade restrictions and tariffs. And every move that makes, the economic situation gets worse Communities die. Wealth hemorrhages outward and leaves people poorer and poorer. Inflation is steadily rising, and costs with it, while wages stagnate.

And people like you look at these results, and assert that the problem is we're not decentralizing enough, we're not deregulating enough, we're not privatizing enough, and that's why things are getting worse. We see assertions from the likes of Alan Greenspan that the entire key is to keep doing what's hurting us, and someday once we do enough of it, it'll stop hurting and make everything wonderful. he compared it to "harsh medicine."

Incidentally, the only use of guns in this situation has been to kill and suppress the people who protest against their "medicine." Chile. Argentina. South Africa. India. Pakistan. Egypt. Indonesia. China. Greece. Romania. Poland. The United States. The United Kingdom. France. Russia. All have seen their people targeted with violence, sometimes killed, sometimes outright exterminated for opposing this neoliberal agenda.

Nothing you advocate has ever been instituted without brutal violence and extreme privation at the hands of the very governments you imagine to be undermining, and nothing has empowered those same governments and their brutality quite as thoroughly as the economic outlines you advocate.


However I know this is not exactly what you meant, still it will get better when people get fed up and correct the situation and that is how a free market works in all aspects of any society. Right now there is no free market.


Except the will of the people has always favored a market where they can safely be employed and can expect a livable wage. This does not come about as a result of "the free market" just as it does not come about from a heavily centrally planned market. it comes about by an open and regulated market. In shorthand, fair trade. This notion is of course inconvenient for the profit margins of the people who push the free market ideology, who, whether you acknowledge it or not, are leading you and others like you around by the nose.


There is no voodo in a true free market as you falsey characterise, and they are proven to work in history. There is only full freedom of choice to participate or not.


The voodoo comes about in the way this thing supposedly works. By taking away all regulations and protections, this free market is supposed to grant immense prosperity to everyone, correct? That's the theory. However, when it's being implemented, every time, everywhere, it's caused the exact opposite. Deregulations cause lower wages and less safe working conditions every time, and remove the ability of employees to seek redress every time. Privatization of public services causes, on average, a three hundred to two-thousand percent increase in the cost of those services, every time. Loosening restrictions on the mobility of capital results in money flying out of the country every time. And when the people stand up and say, "Hey, stop this crazy #!" the guns come in, faces get stomped and the prisons get more and more full - every time.

We're to believe that all this will eventually give way to unicorns, leprechauns, and universal prosperity if we just keep implementing more and more off it. The worse things get, the more it's a sign that things are gonna be awesome in the end. That's the voodoo.


If you think that is some false voodo it only shows how indoctrinated with media BS you really are. We have not had anything near a free market 70 years.


And for 40 of those 70 years we were having a hell of a good time economically. When we started deregulating, privatizing, decentralizing, and liberalizing the market, our economy started dying.

The media? Do you f'ing WATCH the news? Read the papers? Pick up magazines at the news stands? I'm sorry, but if you think "the media" is pushing for centralization and regulation, you are an ignorant ass. Please. Turn on a TV and, for just a moment, shut your gaping food-hole and pay attention. These guys are pro-liberalization on every count. Pick a news station. any news station. They all give reverence to the neoliberal utopian fantasy. Some more fawningly than others, but they all do it.

"The media." Jesus christ.


Government intervention has led us to the brink of disaster we are currently facing, yet the mentally challenged can't seem to make the connection that our current situation is due to precisely this ever increasing government intervention and ignorantly claim that more of what caused the problem is the solution... Must be the fluoride in the water or something...


Interestingly, government intervention is the only way to implement your frankly genocidal philosophy of a completely deregulated and unrestricted market. This is because, despite your claims to the contrary, the majority of people aren't stupid. They do actually know what's best for them. And when it comes to a vote, neoliberal economic policies fail. Remember the attempt to privatize social security? Probably not, as you've certainly forgotten that the media was eating that vomit 24/7. That attempt failed, and it will keep failing, every time it's put before the people for them to decide.

That's why Pinochet needed guns. That's why Suharto needed guns. That's why Thatcher needed guns. That's why Reagan needed guns. That's why Deng Xiaopeng needed guns. That's why The WTO and G8 people needed private armies. That's why Videla needed guns. That's why Sadat and Mubarak needed guns. That's why Yeltsin needed guns.

Because the people won't accept that snake oil you're trying to sell; They have to be held down by hired goons so you can pour it down their throats.
edit on 16/2/2011 by TheWalkingFox because: (no reason given)



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