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67% of Pakistani journalists say US drones attacks are acts of terrorism: survey

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posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 04:30 PM
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The deflection game of don't focus on your own country's real problems and don't try to make your nation a better and more prosperous and functional one, because there are worse places in the world is just retarded.


Its not deflection, its pointing out a reality that you would rather ignore: your fat a$$ has it pretty good here and you wouldn’t last one week in a society less tolerant of your nihilistic demagoguery.

No one is saying it doesn’t have flaws, many many flaws, but you live in a #!ing fantasy world if you really believe that its some kind neo-fascist totalitarian prison.

edit on 14-2-2011 by SirMike because: (no reason given)




posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by bigyin
Would it be possible for one of the relatives of those killed or maimed to sue the US government in court for damages ?

Under what authority does the US kill these innocent people ?

Is there or has there been a declaration of war ?

I really don't know what the legal position is.


Possibly but it would require a huge expense on the part of the victims. They would have to be able to get permission to enter the United States, and have the money to get here, stay here, and file the case, and the money to pay for deposing all the witnesses, including U.S. Government one's who are going to attempt to limit their testimony through National Security stonewalls.

A couple people who have suffered U.S. Rendition, the kidnapping of so called 'enemy combatants' who are then taken by force to U.S. off shore prisons and detained and tortured, have sued and the Federal Judges involved have been exasberated by a general and genuine lack of cooperation by the U.S. Government that claims almost every document and mechanism involved in the process is 'classified' under 'national security'.

This seems to have ticked off the Judges facing this problem, as they don't like to hear the word no, or be made to feel someone else within the government is more powerful than they are.

It's a process that takes years, and you better have some very deep pockets if you want to try.

This excludes most of the victims in the border region of Pakistan who are not people of such means and ability.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by bigyin
 


The legal position is, the Empire is bombing # into one of its own colonies it has effectively lost control off and no one is going to do a damn thing to interfere because were all on board by jingo!

TOOT TOOT PADDLE STEAMERS AND TOP HATS IT IS!!!!



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by SirMike

The deflection game of don't focus on your own country's real problems and don't try to make your nation a better and more prosperous and functional one, because there are worse places in the world is just retarded.


Its not deflection, its pointing out a reality that you would rather ignore: your fat a$$ has it pretty good here and you wouldn’t last one week in a society less tolerant of your nihilistic demagoguery.

No one is saying it doesn’t have flaws, many many flaws, but you live in a #!ing fantasy world if you really believe that its some kind neo-fascist totalitarian prison.

edit on 14-2-2011 by SirMike because: (no reason given)


Once again that's all deflection and an attempt to bait.

Sorry no sale.

But I would just like to stop and point out how desperate a very militant faction is when it comes to wanting to extol Americans to shirk their responsibilities.

Lets review some facts instead of your personal opinions about a person you have never met.

1. The U.S. is 14 trillion dollars in debt and can not financially afford to fight these wars

2. Illegal immigrants pour into this country each day costing tax payers vital services that they use, and depriving Americans job opportunities, while the whole time the immigrants drag down the living wage. So why we would be 'attempting' to secure Pakistan's border with Afghanistan with more vigor than our own is a cause for concern.

3. Unemployment is at 10% and likely well over and millions of Americans are losing their homes, the money being spent on securing opium and oil and minerals for a handful of International Corporations being charged to the American taxpayer is money that could be spent on developing jobs and helping Americans stay in their homes.

4. America is not the government, America is it's people, and it's people have to personally get involved and take responsibility for the government, and yes when the government is out of control, bent on war, rife with corruption, bankrupt, and can't even pay it's bills with all it's resources and all it's taxes, yes it needs corrected, and likely many of it's policies that led to that need corrected too. Hence why these wars should be a concern to all fiscally responsible Americans.

5. Other nations have a responsiibility to govern themselves and clean up their own yards. Why would any American want to abandon their own country at it's expense.

6. Empires from Rome to Great Britan have shown when they expand to far and wide, they go broke, end up losing needless wars to try to retain empire and eventually have to withdraw to their own borders anyway.

Now chances are all these things are the very real, very wise sound things you can't address while imagining instead what kind of life I must live etc.

Good luck with that approach.



edit on 14/2/11 by ProtoplasmicTraveler because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 04:45 PM
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I tend to disagree that many of these "innocents" are so innocent.

The rule of social absolutes states that you are what you socialize with.

If an acquaintance is a hunted man, or of a hunted group, the last thing you do is invite him to family socials. In fact, if you have one iota of common sense, you want these guys just as far from you as possible.

Unless.

Unless he is a bird of feather, and like kind are flocking together.

So when he comes to your home and is welcomed, don't be surprised if a bomb that is targeting HIM, or a missile that has HIM in the crosshairs just happens to take out some of you and yours in the process.

In combat, the machineguns brought an inordinate amount of attention from our enemies. They always concentrated their own fire at our machineguns.

Now it didn't take a rocket scientist to realize that if you're going to snuggle up to another cluster of soldiers - which in of itself is suicidal - the last crew you want to get near is the machinegunners.

I personally don't think we've created a single terrorist. I do think we've been able to concentrate them in certain areas when they came together for their own personal version of jihad.

And it is my sincere hope that we assist as many of these jihadists to join Muhammed in their paradise as we can.

I would hope we can do so by finding them in the greatest concentrations, in the greatest numbers, with the greatest efficiency, in the least amount of time possible.

Now. Later.

Later means more of them on their terms.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by FarArcher
 



I personally don't think we've created a single terrorist. I do think we've been able to concentrate them in certain areas when they came together for their own personal version of jihad.


Oh my, I nearly choked on my coffee....

Considering as far as reports go, we have so far killed more terrorists than were reported to exist 10 years ago. your comment seems sadly misinformed..



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by FarArcher
 





I tend to disagree that many of these "innocents" are so innocent. The rule of social absolutes states that you are what you socialize with.




If i could un-star you, i would, many, many, many times.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by SirMike

Originally posted by Thepreye

Originally posted by SirMike
]
Does it create 10 NATO troops?


No only NATO propaganda and defence spending can do that.

I love how defenders of the status quo are taking solace in equity with the Taliban, aren't we meant to be the good guys? Saving the women and children from "awful Muslim oppression".


Ok, so what happens then? If we create 10 more terrorists for every one we kill, what does the Taliban create every time they kill someone?


This gets a little clearer when you start using real words instead of the words of the propaganda machine.

Everytime we kill an innocent man, woman or child in Afghanistan or Pakistan we create 10 more people who don't like the United States.

Everytime the Taliban kills someone they create 10 more people that don't like the Taliban.

Now which of those parties is not guilty of murder?

Neither.

However it should be noted that Afghanistan has had a few uneasy governments before our invasion and after teh Soviets were driven out, and that the Taliban was already hard pressed from a Northern Aliance that under it's previous commander who was assissanated the day before September 11th had made sure but steady progress against the Taliban and had also been careful to do it without CIA or American help.

Somehow within days of his assissanation though pallets of American Cash was delivered to his militia along with the CIA agents to finally take control of it.

We are in reality making the Taliban more popular and not less popular as we rack up a higher body count than they do, and our night time raids and constant security sweeps are more security intrusive into every day lives than the Taliban's religiously inspired ones.

The Taliban was not particuarly well liked which is why several factions were fighting it and had credibility too when they weren't funded and controlled by outside sources.

Many of the pre-invasion Taliban were not Afghanis but pilgrims from around the Middle East and the Muslim World looking to create a strict Islamic Theocracy as their preference in how to conduct their own lives.

But the sad truth as despised as the Taliban was by many before the Coalition invasion, they are now often seen as the only alternative to fighting back to an American funded and controlled puppet government and too many innocent civilian deaths caused by it's existence and willingess to let the U.S. militarily occupy the portions of the nation it can and wants too.

We haven't weakened the Taliban we made it stronger, and it's nonsense to think we are even there to fight the Taliban as it's all about opium, an oil pipeline, and copper.

In fact we are still actively trying to partner with the Taliban if we can get that opium, pipeline and copper more cheaply and safely in the process.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:26 PM
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Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Everytime we kill an innocent man, woman or child in Afghanistan or Pakistan we create 10 more people who don't like the United States.

Everytime the Taliban kills someone they create 10 more people that don't like the Taliban.

Now which of those parties is not guilty of murder?

Neither.



However it should be noted that Afghanistan has had a few uneasy governments before our invasion and after teh Soviets were driven out, and that the Taliban was already hard pressed from a Northern Aliance that under it's previous commander who was assissanated the day before September 11th had made sure but steady progress against the Taliban and had also been careful to do it without CIA or American help.





The Taliban was not particuarly well liked which is why several factions were fighting it and had credibility too when they weren't funded and controlled by outside sources.

Many of the pre-invasion Taliban were not Afghanis but pilgrims from around the Middle East and the Muslim World looking to create a strict Islamic Theocracy as their preference in how to conduct their own lives.



Star.
Proto.



We don't always agree but those are them there facts



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:27 PM
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Well some of his points are valid though. Many of these "innocents" were not innocent. Funny how though many of these strikes, the Taliban claimed it had merely been a wedding party, and that 90 people were killed. Not that the Taliban ever let anyone verify it was a wedding party or the number of bodies. Taliban would rather make up a story for propaganda and claim a bunch of innocents died at a wedding, rather than admit to a successful strike on them.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Yeah they pretty much are, and I don't like the Taliban either, but the truth is it's a numbers games very similiar to sales.

If you sell someone a great product with exceptional service and a reasonable price, people will tell 3 people of their positive experience.

If you sell them a bad product with bad service for too much money, they will tell 10 people of their negative experience.

Because we rack up a higher body count than the Taliban because of our strategies and munitions, we are making 10 angry customers 10 times more often than they are.

So we have made them more popular.

Leave the rest of the world to figure out it's own problems and how they want to live. Secure our own borders, shore up our deficit, reign in the spending, focus on the economy and jobs and get out of these money pits that really don't pay a dividend to the American people.

I am expected to pay my rent, live within my budget and get along with others, avoid violent encounters and destroying other's property, and to not go in debt.

Why we are permitting, even glorifying in too many cases, and turning a blind eye far to often in others to our nation doing all the things that personally we aren't allowed to do, and wouldn't see personal virtue in is just not good for the nation.

We are the nation, not the clowns in Washington, and the crooks on Wall Street.

Yeah we need to focus on our own problems because history shows clearly what happens when you over extend an empire.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by firepilot
 

For your consideration...

US Killed 700 Civilians in Pakistan Drone Strikes in 2009

On June 22, the US struck at a house officials called a “suspected militant hideout,” burying a few locals inside. When others rushed to the scene to rescue them, they launched another missile, killing 13 apparently innocent Pakistanis. When they held a funeral procession on June 23, the US hit that too, ostensibly on the belief that Baitullah Mehsud might be among the mourners. He wasn’t, but the attack killed at least 80 more people.


Some of the links from this article appear to have been disappeared. I'll see if I can't dig them out of the rabbit hole. Also, if I'm not mistaken 2010 didn't look much better.

This comment to the article also reflects what many are thinking and have said...

"The vast majority of the deaths, around 700 according to one estimate, have been innocent civilians." Let us conservatively assume that these 700 innocent victims each had 20 relatives and/or friends who are capable of joining, and fighting for, an armed resistance. That would be 14,000 people. Let us then assume that only 15% of them actually join a resistance and take up arms to avenge the murders of their 700 innocent relatives and friends. That would still be 2,100 new "enemy" that the drone attacks, just by themselves, have created. To the military and/or intelligence brass who ordered all the drone attacks: congratulations, you morons.

Sorry, but even one civilian casualty is too many against a country we are not at war with.

And a more recent article...

US, Pakistan Underreport Civilian Deaths in Drone War

Of those killed in US drone strikes against North Waziristan, how many are civilians? It is a question without an answer, but a new report by a Pakistani NGO suggests that the answer is “most of them.”

Both countries are underreporting. Gee wonder why?

edit on 2/14/2011 by ~Lucidity because: to add additional article.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 05:58 PM
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reply to post by ~Lucidity
 


We could throw numbers back and forth all day long...
They're not US drone deaths but you get my point. Pakistani Pot calling US kettle black etc..
Civilian suffering suggests Pakistan stability far off

In 2010, 3,570 civilians were killed in Pakistan in the war between government forces and Islamist militants, slightly more than the previous year, according to the Pak Institute for Peace Studies. Taliban militants have been digging in despite pressure from the military. Public confidence in the government is likely to erode, if the violence does not ease. RANDOM KILLINGS Bloodshed is often random. One man was gathering firewood when he was hit by a blast. Gulzada, 45, was riding his donkey cart past a government office when a bomb sprayed shrapnel into his legs.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 

Yes, we could. Trust no one, believe nothing, and always assume that as horrible as you think it is, it's probably worse. They're both pots to me—always have been and always will be. I refuse to condone murder no matter who does it, no matter what they call it, or how they rationalize it.

Like I said a few post prior, the bodies on all sides are piling up too deep to count. And we probably don't even know the half of it. I've passed the anger stage and the sickened stage and am currently sitting at numb.


edit on 2/14/2011 by ~Lucidity because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 06:18 PM
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Murder in itself isn’t terrorism and killing in itself isn’t murder. With that out of the way, I personally believe that the 6% who chose the “I don’t know” option are by far the closest to being correct here. Virtually all of the evidence that you must take into account when answering that question (based upon your own personal definition of terrorism, of course) is unreliable at best when looked at objectively. It is more likely than not that those who are unquestionably using such statistics and factors to draw definite conclusions have an agenda to push.

It would be a better idea to call it manslaughter or murder or terrorism on a case-by-case basis, in my opinion. Also the militants, in deciding to place themselves amongst civilians (including their own families) when they are well aware that they are being targeted, must share a degree of responsibility for any civilian deaths.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by Soshh
 

Terrorism is more a crime to me than an act of war, and in many cases, that crime happens to be murder. As such, I believe it is more a law enforcement issue—and a national one at that, with international cooperation—and a border issue, rather something you can attack with the military.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
Obama should be arrested for acts of terrorism using drones that has killed innocent people. And I don't believe in this 67% crap because if it was a real survey, it would be 100%!! Even the Taliban are innocent civilians. So are Al Qaeda. All of them are civilians.


What planet are you from?

How are the Taliban and Al-Qaeda INNOCENT? What is wrong with you?



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by FarArcher
 


I'm saddened to read such a post on ats.

Have you ever considered attending a church of any sort. It might be an idea to re-discover what being human is actually about.

Personally I'm not particularly religious but no way would I condem people to die so easily as you, but I can't think of any other way to change your views.

It does make me wonder what you hold valuable in life. I actually feel sorry for you. Why people's suffering should be ok with anyone is beyond me. I know some are making money from it which is sick but why else would anyone condone it.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by Soshh
 


So if somebody in America shot somebody then ran away and ended up in somebody elses house, it would be ok by you if we just bombed the entire house and everyone in it.

Ok I've got it now



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 06:39 PM
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post removed for serious violation of ATS Terms & Conditions



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