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A perspective Gun would prove God, and solve all the world's problems eventually

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posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 10:45 AM
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"The perspective gun is a marvel of human ingenuity and innovation. When fired, it causes the victim to see the wielder's point-of-view." ...Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

Having at one time in my life been an Atheist, then Agnostic, then suspending all skepticism to see if there is any truth to the claim of "God,".....

.......I found that there definitely is One. After this direct experience ....no matter how hard I try to attack "the reality of God," with all my old Atheist arguments "against" ...they just fail miserably in the light, and face of the direct experience of God.

However, I know for certain ......for those who doubt, that one shot of a perspective Gun, from someone who experiences God, would be all it takes for you to marvel at the Awe of such an Infinite Being.

And as a result ......everything would eventually crumble, as more of these perspective gun triggers were pulled by experiencers of God ....corruption, war, hunger ...all problems would eventually vanish.




posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


Shoot me with it, and I will still hunt you down for changing me.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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To be honest, this seems like a troubling notion.

Perspective is not an objective experience. No experience is objective, actually. Nothing can be proven by experience, and we have case studies that definitely prove that perspective can be radically altered by very small glitches within the human brain. Are you trying to discern the truth or are you trying to get someone else to have the same experience that you had? I remember telling friends that I'd given studio mixes to "You have to listen to this with good headphones and crank the highs or it sounds like crap." What I should've been doing was making the mix work no matter what kind of perspective was being employed by the listener.

A perspective gun? Why not just slip '___' in someone's coffee and then lead them to the "truth" as they start getting off? PCP does a hell of a job too. Probably easier to get than good acid. Hell, I'm sure that the CIA has stuff that wipes your slate clean and uploads whatever they want onto your hard drive.

If something is true, it's true from all perspectives. It's equally pervasive within all that exists as normal within the lives of everyone. It makes sense with everything from gravity to how long it takes an eggs to cook to how one finds peace within the insanity of a hyper-driven world. If it fails to align naturally with everything that exists anywhere within that range, then it's not true. Perspective gun or no perspective gun.
edit on 2/14/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:00 AM
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Wouldn't it be better for people to treat others the way you would have them treat you? That way you wouldn't have to brainwash people like you do with the perspective gun.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:03 AM
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As much as this is a joke ... there is just certain people whose perspectives I might never want to see.

Can you imagine feeling deep compassion for a sex offender's point of view? Or for Rick Astley's?

It's too terrible to contemplate.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:05 AM
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It only works on men, BTW.


And yeah, I would never shoot anyone with that gun.. especially on the crowd setting... Instant and total breakdown of civilization.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:08 AM
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The best advice that my Dad ever gave me (and he's a pretty bright fellow, so it's good advice
) was to always bear in mind that everyone has their own perspective, and theirs is most likely as important and valid to them as yours is to you, so whenever you are having trouble relating to someone, step back and think about things from their point of view. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them, or even support them, just take a few minutes to think about why they would feel that way.

That's not always easy to do (barring Mr. Adams' "Perspective Gun") but it's not about brainwashing, it's about empathy and respect, two things that aren't generally ingrained in us and take time and concerted effort to learn.
edit on 14-2-2011 by adjensen because: Clarification



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:08 AM
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reply to post by NorEaster
 



Perspective is not an objective experience. No experience is objective, actually. Nothing can be proven by experience, and we have case studies that definitely prove that perspective can be radically altered by very small glitches within the human brain.

But what if you are directly experiencing Objectivity itself devoid of any filters?? !!! ??


A perspective gun? Why not just slip '___' in someone's coffee and then lead them to the "truth" as they start getting off? PCP does a hell of a job too. Probably easier to get than good acid. Hell, I'm sure that the CIA has stuff that wipes your slate clean and uploads whatever they want onto your hard drive.

meh ..... drugs are relative ...a state that comes and goes ......I'm speaking about a permanence ......although I'm sure you'll take that in your own way.


If something is true, it's true from all perspectives. It's equally pervasive within all that exists as normal within the lives of everyone. It makes sense with everything from gravity to how long it takes an eggs to cook to how one finds peace within the insanity of a hyper-driven world. If it fails to align naturally with everything that exists anywhere within that range, then it's not true. Perspective gun or no perspective gun.

the problem with this is ......"If something is true, it's true from all perspectives." ....some perspectives don't see Truth.

Yea we can say that ..."it is true that billy bob johnson and john doe, don't see Truth." In that regard, that perspective is true ...... but thats irrelevant....

I'm talking about getting shot by a perspective Gun from the P.O.V. of Absolute Objective Truth. i.e. an Ultimate bias destroyer



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by Pinke
As much as this is a joke ... there is just certain people whose perspectives I might never want to see.

Can you imagine feeling deep compassion for a sex offender's point of view? Or for Rick Astley's?

It's too terrible to contemplate.


I can see a person's point of view without having to embrace their reactions to it. I can understand why a serial killer kills without thinking they are right in killing. I can understand the mindset of a child molestor (common mistake, most sex offenders are not child molestors, and most child molestors are not sex offenders) without wanting to sleep with a child.

I think perspective and understanding is greatly needed in society and the world. It would resolve endless conflicts.
Fear keeps us from even trying to ponder a point of view, because we are scared we may embrace the understanding and do it ourselves. I worry more for people like that whom deem themselves without a sense of self control or principles.

A mental health therapist must learn to understand and see different perspectives. Does that mean they are a bunch of crazed criminals?



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:13 AM
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Originally posted by dominicus
"The perspective gun is a marvel of human ingenuity and innovation. When fired, it causes the victim to see the wielder's point-of-view." ...Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy


Could I shoot God with it?

I'm not sure me living your experience would prove God. As all experiences are unique to the individual, if choose to do so, let us be to discover it on our own.

On the topic of the gun, I think it's an allegory for being empathetic, "walk a mile in someone's shoes," so to say.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen
it's about empathy and respect, two things that aren't generally ingrained in us and take time and concerted effort to learn.
edit on 14-2-2011 by adjensen because: Clarification


Naa, its not about empathy and respect.
I can understand clearly a person's point of view/perspective, I don't have to respect it at all.
Consider politics. I can understand the other sides point of view, their arguments, their vision, etc...that doesn't mean I understand it, therefore I like or even respect it. just means I can see it.

Such understandings can lead to empathy, or can lead to fighting it properly and addressing the actual issues verses the need for strawmen.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by SaturnFX

Originally posted by adjensen
it's about empathy and respect, two things that aren't generally ingrained in us and take time and concerted effort to learn.
edit on 14-2-2011 by adjensen because: Clarification


Naa, its not about empathy and respect.
I can understand clearly a person's point of view/perspective, I don't have to respect it at all.
Consider politics. I can understand the other sides point of view, their arguments, their vision, etc...that doesn't mean I understand it, therefore I like or even respect it. just means I can see it.


That's not my point. You don't need to respect their conclusions, but respect the fact that they have conclusions, that they're as entitled to them as you are, and that they likely feel as "right" as you do, even if you disagree 100%. Not accepting this leads to bigotry and the outright dismissal of someone, simply because they don't agree with you.

You can dismiss their opinion or disagree with their conclusions, but once you dismiss them as a person, you've taken a very dangerous step on a very slippery slope.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:49 AM
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reply to post by dominicus
 


It's not that the atheists/agnostics don't believe that the experience of god exists; there can be no doubt about that, it's something people claim all the time and there's no reason to think they're lying. Our skepticism is directed at the notion that that experience corresponds to some real external entity that is mystical in nature. Because, as I'm sure you know, not all experience corresponds directly to real things in the external world (dreams, hallucinations, illusions, ect. . .). The normal tools that we have for determining the validity of an experience (i.e. we look carefully at the external world and try to independantly verify evidence of whatever we're considering) don't indicate that god exists.

The fact is that you and I could be in the same room and you could be experiencing god while I was not experiencing god. You take your experience to mean he's there and I take my experience/lack thereof to mean he's not. How do you we find out who is right?

The perspective gun is of little use here. If you used it on me I would be aware of your experience, but I would chalk it up to the part of the brain that induces an experience of a higher power/infinite spirit. I wouldn't chalk it up to the notion that you actually have the capacity to perceive something in the world which I cannot perceive. Like I said, that you are having the experience is not in question, the question is whether or not that experience is evidence of god.

Much of atheism is rooted in the scientific worldview. No evidence = no reason to believe, and personal experience is the worst kind of evidence. If you applied the same reasoning described in the OP across the board, wouldn't you conclude that the events in dreams are actually taking place? And by that same reasoning, why doesn't the atheists experience of the absence of god prove that he doesn't exist? What happens when two people who experience god very differently shoot eachother with the gun? Do they both accept eachother's gods? Does the experience cause them to doubt the validity of their own notion of god? Do their heads light on fire?



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 11:56 AM
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Originally posted by dominicus
But what if you are directly experiencing Objectivity itself devoid of any filters?? !!! ??


There is no such thing. You experience your brain state, not the external world. Your brain state often contains a limited representation of the external world, but it can't represent "objectivity itself." At the level of neuronal connections, your brain is a lot different than my brain. Since the neural networks are the medium for representing anything, and we don't have identicle neural networks to work with, none of our representations will be exactly the same. Therefore, none of our experiences will be exactly the same. You are objectively experiencing your brain state, but your brain state can't objectively represent anything.

Check out this thread about subjectivity. Read some of the experiments.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 12:01 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





... but respect the fact that they have conclusions, that they're as entitled to them as you are, and that they likely feel as "right" as you do, even if you disagree 100%.


No, nobody is entitled to be a child molester



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 12:04 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by NorEaster
 



Perspective is not an objective experience. No experience is objective, actually. Nothing can be proven by experience, and we have case studies that definitely prove that perspective can be radically altered by very small glitches within the human brain.

But what if you are directly experiencing Objectivity itself devoid of any filters?? !!! ??


Your consciousness itself provides powerful filters. Ever hear of a thing called cognitive dissonance. It exists as a direct result of your consciousness doing a triage effort on the waves of sensory input you receive every instant. Without that triage effort, you'd suffer from extreme autism, and you'd be incapacitated. That triage effort that allows you to make any sense at all of the experience of existence is an aggressive filter, and you've been crafting that filter protocol since the day your brain clicked on.

Sorry, you can't experience anything without it being filtered. Not anything. Unless you obliterate the section of your brain that is used to filter (I wouldn't recommend it) sensory and ruminational input, you simply can't experience anything that hasn't been vetted by your consciousness to make sense with what's become already established as potentially real for your mind to that point. The discarding of input data that clashes with that established potential is what is called cognitive dissonance. It's the BS detector, and your mind has one, and you really have no immediate control over what it will shunt to the trash bin.




A perspective gun? Why not just slip '___' in someone's coffee and then lead them to the "truth" as they start getting off? PCP does a hell of a job too. Probably easier to get than good acid. Hell, I'm sure that the CIA has stuff that wipes your slate clean and uploads whatever they want onto your hard drive.

meh ..... drugs are relative ...a state that comes and goes ......I'm speaking about a permanence ......although I'm sure you'll take that in your own way.


Yes, drugs do induce a relative, subjective state, but so do states of belief. We all experience what we experience, and we all perceive those experiences differently. I remember this one guy I knew in high school who became a "Jesus freak" (that's what the kids in the 70s called local born-agains who suddenly converted and started preaching at McDonalds while standing on the outside tables). We all went to the same dentist (very small town) and I heard word that this kid got three molars drilled out without any Novocain at all. Just sitting there and smiling with "the Lord keeping the pain away". That was is experience of getting three back teeth drilled out. Nothing objective about that.

Nothing is objective in connection with experience. That's the brilliance of the human mind, and why the creation of it is so valuable.




If something is true, it's true from all perspectives. It's equally pervasive within all that exists as normal within the lives of everyone. It makes sense with everything from gravity to how long it takes an eggs to cook to how one finds peace within the insanity of a hyper-driven world. If it fails to align naturally with everything that exists anywhere within that range, then it's not true. Perspective gun or no perspective gun.

the problem with this is ......"If something is true, it's true from all perspectives." ....some perspectives don't see Truth.

Yea we can say that ..."it is true that billy bob johnson and john doe, don't see Truth." In that regard, that perspective is true ...... but thats irrelevant....

I'm talking about getting shot by a perspective Gun from the P.O.V. of Absolute Objective Truth. i.e. an Ultimate bias destroyer


You may have misunderstood what I meant with that statement. Let me try again.

If something you believe to be true clashes with 5 existential staples - like consistency, progressive development, unique identity, logic, and event ramification - then is it right to insist that these 5 existential staples be dismissed, or is it more responsible to re-examine what you believe to be true? If your belief violates any one of these existential staples, then what is it that elevates your belief to a level that it has the natural authority to supplant a staple that literally anchors reality as we all know and experience it?

These may seem like belligerent questions, but reality is shared by all of us, as well as all that we know to exist, and all that must exist for all of that to exist. There is precedence that must be acknowledged. There is a structural consistency that must be factored into the belief that one embraces. That consistency does not survive miracles, no matter what some book demands. You can't take 500,000 molecules of the element Fe out of a steel ball bearing without destroying the whole of the ball bearing, and it's the same way with the existential structure that contains us all and allows us existence. Any breach of this structure and the structure, as a whole, is obliterated.

Your belief belongs to you, but reality belongs to everything. That's because everything combines to establish what is real, regardless of whether you know what it is that is real or not. And the truth about reality, is that it is relentlessly redundant, since replication is the cheapest form of organization and structure. Ask any engineer. That means that what is true shows up everywhere, and at all levels of existential sophistication. In fact, that's what the axiom "As above, so below" means. It's the basis of rudimentary structure.

The truth exists, and it's right under your nose. You'd be shocked at how obvious it is once you've recognized it for what it is.
edit on 2/14/2011 by NorEaster because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 12:08 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
"The perspective gun is a marvel of human ingenuity and innovation. When fired, it causes the victim to see the wielder's point-of-view." ...Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

Having at one time in my life been an Atheist, then Agnostic, then suspending all skepticism to see if there is any truth to the claim of "God,".....

.......I found that there definitely is One. After this direct experience ....no matter how hard I try to attack "the reality of God," with all my old Atheist arguments "against" ...they just fail miserably in the light, and face of the direct experience of God.

However, I know for certain ......for those who doubt, that one shot of a perspective Gun, from someone who experiences God, would be all it takes for you to marvel at the Awe of such an Infinite Being.


Not exactly.

If you shot me with said Perspective Gun, I would undoubtedly see exactly why you think that God exists. However, it would not mean that I accept that God exists. I would just see why you do. I would then be free to dismiss that point of view as much as I am free to dismiss it now.

Getting someone to understand what you think doesn't mean that they'll automatically agree. What you want is a Brainwashing Gun, not a Perspective Gun.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by OnceReturned
 



Because, as I'm sure you know, not all experience corresponds directly to real things in the external world (dreams, hallucinations, illusions, ect. . .). The normal tools that we have for determining the validity of an experience (i.e. we look carefully at the external world and try to independantly verify evidence of whatever we're considering) don't indicate that god exists.

so we are forced to limit everything to the external ?


The fact is that you and I could be in the same room and you could be experiencing god while I was not experiencing god. You take your experience to mean he's there and I take my experience/lack thereof to mean he's not. How do you we find out who is right?

well .......because we can say that those to whom the experience is not there .....simply haven't adjusted to that reality..... having once myself been someone who didn't have that experience, and then one who did ...its a matter of adjustments, realignments and reinvestigation of perspective itself ...i.e. instead of perceiving through ...senses, mind, reason, logic ...its simply a matter of locating the perceiver itself .....i.e. perceiving the perceiver to see where that leads .....amongst other things ....i.e. investigating with ..instead of without.


The perspective gun is of little use here. If you used it on me I would be aware of your experience, but I would chalk it up to the part of the brain that induces an experience of a higher power/infinite spirit.

It would be impossible to do that because it would be seen that the brain and its experiences are perceived by a perceiver that is independent of the brain and its experiences.
edit on 14-2-2011 by dominicus because: (no reason given)



Much of atheism is rooted in the scientific worldview. No evidence = no reason to believe, and personal experience is the worst kind of evidence.

thats ultimately the issue here..... external materialism ....its limited. To say personal experience is the worst kind of evidence ...that such a misnomer..... everyone experiences, everyone is, .......to just complete and outright disregard personal experience is quite possibly the worst thing that we can do.


If you applied the same reasoning described in the OP across the board, wouldn't you conclude that the events in dreams are actually taking place? And by that same reasoning, why doesn't the atheists experience of the absence of god prove that he doesn't exist?

There is a part of you that perceives that the mind has chosen to see subjective personal experience as one that is devoid of the experience of God and based off that come to certain conclusion based off that experience......


What happens when two people who experience god very differently shoot eachother with the gun? Do they both accept eachother's gods? Does the experience cause them to doubt the validity of their own notion of god? Do their heads light on fire?

There are certain objective universal factors in the experience of an Absolute being ..... for the most part ...there would be hardly any differences .....and if there are ....it is seen that all differences are merely dropped...since they are simply labels of the mind and completely unneccessary.
edit on 14-2-2011 by dominicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 12:26 PM
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Originally posted by dominicus
reply to post by OnceReturned
It would be impossible to do that because it would be seen that the brain and its experiences are perceived by a perceiver that is independent of the brain and its experiences.


Again, no. Not unless this is a Brainwashing Gun rather than a Perspective Gun.



posted on Feb, 14 2011 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by Golden Boy
 



Again, no. Not unless this is a Brainwashing Gun rather than a Perspective Gun.

really that's it? not much weight in that statement to be honest .....


Not exactly. If you shot me with said Perspective Gun, I would undoubtedly see exactly why you think that God exists.

actually you would see that there is no thought involved ...for any thought is merely a picture or label over something that already is inherently in and of itself devoid of what anyone thinks of it.


it would not mean that I accept that God exists. I would just see why you do. I would then be free to dismiss that point of view as much as I am free to dismiss it now.

thats the point of the thread ...I honestly would bet everything I own ....that upon being shot by the perspective Gun (by an experiencer of God) in the aftermath it would be impossible to dismiss it, let alone to even see it as a subjective point of view.


Getting someone to understand what you think doesn't mean that they'll automatically agree. What you want is a Brainwashing Gun, not a Perspective Gun.

in this case ...it woudn't be about getting someone to understand what I think ...it would be a showing of what is there prior to thought, during and behind thought, and after thought ceases..... something that thought can't comprehend yet can experience ......you say brainwashing, I say the complete undoing of all brainwashing and then revealing what lays bare in the aftermath of That.




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