Can HAARP Create Earthquakes?

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posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 05:07 PM
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reply to post by Phage
 


1/ I have no problem with the principle of dielectric heating. In fact its ability to cause oscillations with the water molecule further demonstrates the relationship between electromagnetic and kinetic energy. This does not distract from my poor explanation of the Bohr model of atomic structure either, as heat is produced and the electrons are in a higher orbit.

2/ The discussion is, can radio waves cause movement? The principle and measurement of radiation pressure proves that it does.

3/ Have you heard of the crystal radio? en.wikipedia.org... . Now hook up a very tiny motor instead of the earphones. It may only measure in the range of a billionth of a watt, but if you get closer to the transmission source or a stronger signal was sent then so would the available wattage. The electric motor will be powered by radio waves. There are some differences between the electron of electricity and the photon of electromagnetic energy, but there are also a very strong relationship between the two.




posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by kwakakev
 

1) I still don't understand why you are connecting energy states to thermal effects.

2) The discussion is, can radio waves cause earthquakes?

3) Hook a crystal radio up to a headset and it creates movement too. But so what? A crystal radio is an antenna, tuner, and rectifier. Without those things no electrons move. Put that motor by itself in an electromagnetic field and nothing happens.



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by Phage
 


Ok, I think we have reached an end to our debate over the relationship between electromagnetic and kinetic energy. Very small, but present. If we are still in disagreement we can let the readers decide as it feel like further discussion here will just continue in circles. So lets get on with the bigger question, can radio waves cause earthquakes?

If you mean RF frequencies in the range of 30 kHz to 300 GHz then no, they cannot as as the ground penetrating capability is too weak. What we are looking for is ULF frequencies in the range of >0 to 30Hz as they have much better penetration as demonstrated by one of the official HAARP purposes with submarine communication. I have a thread at www.abovetopsecret.com... for an overview on how this is achieved.

One of the similarities with many suspected HAARP induced earthquakes is a shallow epicentre around 10-20km deep so lets focus on this region as earthquakes can be as deep as 650km. At this shallow depth there is still many hundreds of tons of pressure, lots of solid rock, a fair amount of heat and some liquids that vary from region to region. The dielectric effect from the ULF waves will still be present as with microwaves, but a lot more dispersed as the length of the wave grows and the wave peeks and troughs get further apart. While this dielectric effect is not as effective with solids as it is with liquids, it is still able to produce an effect in solid material.

So lets say we have a frequency of 2.5Hz, the the wavelength will be 119 920 km long. Where the transmission is produced will be the first peek, the first trough to produce the dielectric effect will be 59 960 km away from the source and then another peek at 119 920 km and so on. While 59 960 km may seam like a long way to go from Alaska to Japan, when you are an electromagnetic wave travelling through the magnetosphere this is pretty standard stuff. To get enough energy into the ground takes time, a few days is not uncommon. Eventually all this build up energy has to go somewhere and your earthquake begins.



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 07:14 PM
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it creates earthquakes by proxy. it finds oil and natural gas pockets. we drill we drain, why do you think the oil is there in the first place ? oil is lubricant... a motor without oil in its gears and parts will overheat and have alot of friccion and vibration. hmmm what have we been doing to this planet...


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Mar, 20 2011 @ 09:23 PM
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@puterman:



due to the known ELF frequency that can penetrate the Earth's surface and detect hidden bunkers, oil, gas e.t.c.


"the known ELF frequency"? There's only one? Sigh. ELF EM happens all the time, all around you, and at power levels higher than any HAARP can induce. Which is to say, two gnat hairs above nothing instead of one.



With HAARP, they thought they would have a little more versatility and the ability to communicate at higher data rates and more efficiently with submarines at depth.


Actually, no. The data rate is limited by the frequency you are using. You don't have much at ELF, even in the "higher" ELF band the Navy used to use, it's still pitiful. It doesn't matter where it originates from, either Seafarer or HAARP. Still, HAARP's induction of ELF waves was an interesting alternate source in the event that Seafarer was knocked out, AND you had just the right conditions over Gakona for doing it. But Navy dropped ELF not long after anyway. Now it's all VLF and lasers.



Brooks Agnew, a specialist in the area of earth penetrating tomography...


is a hollow Earther and a whack job. He also tries to make pitiful demonstrations involving subwoofers while pointedly dancing around the point that ELF EM is not in any way related to ELF sound waves.

Oh, and when he says he was generating 30W of ELF EM using a field rig, that's a damned lie. Sorry, but it is. Seafarer put something like 2MW of input power into generating something like 6W of ELF output, using a 50 mile long wire. Somewhere around here I've got the Seafarer project spec manual, but I'm pretty sure that's in the ballpark. HAARP limits out at about 30W of actual induced power during perfect conditions, most of the time it's in the single digits.



He was speaking on weapons of mass destruction and he asserted that "electromagnetic waves can be used to stimulate geophysical events such as earthquakes, climate change, volcanic eruptions and the like".


But why that was attributed to HAARP is beyond me. He was likely referring to something else, like Proteus. There have also been experiments wherein they applied a lot of power directly into the ground trying to get effects like that, which he may also have been referring to.

Oh, how does it do that? Go look up "magnetotellurics". Basically, you are looking at tiny electrical signals induced in the ground by small changes in the Earth's background magnetic field. You can do mathematic transforms on the voltages you see vs the magnetic field changes that provoke them (you need really expensive magnetometers for the other data) and produce a map sort of like you do a CT scan. The trick is to get the magnetic field perturbations when you want them, if you want to get it done quickly. Otherwise you have to stake out the area you want to map and wait for something that causes this, a nice electrical storm moving by a few miles away or sunrise/set will do it. Think of the HAARP version as onshore CSEM with the source being way off.

Tesla ended recanting the thing about "earth splitting" because he was wrong. You also won't find any accounts of his having done it with a building other than the ones he wrote - there were no other reports of it. Not to mention that it doesn't make sense from a mechanical point of view. It takes a hi-q structure with a strong resonance and a lot of input energy to get a Tacoma Narrows effect on a macrostructure.



(Source as posted). Note that it says looking at ways to cause earthquakes. I t makes no mention of whether they can be caused. All the rest of the things in the article I would agree with as they are based on electro-magnetic effects.


Only it's Begich, so you can figure that either he's trying to draw you into making non-sequitur conclusions or he's just wrong, I'd say 90% of his "book" falls into these categories. Example: Operation Argus and Starfish Prime were high altitude nuke tests, but had nothing to do with earthquakes, other than on sites with "creative" postings. You'll often see them confused with Prime Argus, which was something else entirely. Thus do you get people like Begich (or Alex Jones et al) that try to strain for the connection between Prime Argus, Starfish Prime, Operation Argus, and the ionosphere with a desperate attempt to connect HAARP to earthquakes. Sigh. Prime Argus, btw, was a follow-on to Vela. Part of what it studied was how to distinguish nuclear blasts from earthquakes using seismological data.



Unfortunately in the second part they introduced that idiot Brooks Agnew...


Oh, was that the horrible program narrated by Frakes that shows the fraudulent "ELF generator" clearing the fog out of the tube, followed by that whackjob Agnew with the loudspeaker? I watched that once, there's lies and misrepresentations galore.

@bdb818888:



Yes , but only small earth quakes , haarp is used to locate oil ,water , it gives off certain vibrations or sounds when it hits oil , its like plucking a guitar string...


EM is not sound, sound is not EM. It's not at all alike. It doesn't give off sound or vibrations when it hits oil. You can use HAARP as a magnetotelluric scan source, but you can also just wait for sunrise or set, or a thunderstorm to get the same effect. All you need is some slow oscillation of the local EM field and a lot of really pricey probes laid out in a grid. The impetus to push the field lines around can come from a lot of sources. Usually you just wait for sundown.




@PsychoHazard:



The resonating frequency of the earth (known as the Schumann resonances) is very low, in or below the ELF bands.


Actually, that's not "the resonating frequency of the Earth", depending on what you mean by that. The Schumann resonance set is the natural frequency of the Earth-ionosphere sphere-in-sphere waveguide. Since they're not perfect spheres, you don't get a single resonance. And it's an EM resonance, not a mechanical one. Also Tesla never had "an earthquake machine", it was something he was spouting off about trying to get funding.



...so that would be my first tip that HAARP doesn't operate in ELF.


And it doesn't, at least not directly, but you can induce ELF production in the ionosphere using HAARP, and you in fact do just that in a number of types of experiments they do there.

@boo1981:



The book is called Angels Don't Play This Haarp: Advances in Tesla Technology...


Your IQ will drop a dozen points just looking at the thing. Open it and your brains will degrade to the point that you'll think Tinky Winky is Albert Einstein. Begich is full of crap. Period.

@ni91ck:



Radiowaves can creat a resonance/ vibration. Look at your microwave oven, its a little radiotransmitter ! Radiowaves resonate/ vibrating the molecules of your food and warms it up by rubbing/resonate/vibrating the molecules.


Um, no. It uses dielectric heating to spin the water molecules around, using the little electric dipole that water has. No mechanical resonance at all, other than a QM one. Which is not a macroscale vibration. Of course, that's ignoring the fact that you wouldn't have more than a few microwatts per square meter of power applied with HAARP.

@Roald:



It was the US Navy who were responsible for Project “Prime Argus” - a precursor program to HAARP. Argus was responsible for exploding three atomic bombs in the Van Allen belts and, thereafter monitoring the resultant effects...


And you're another one that confuses Starfish Prime with Prime Argus. Bzzt.

BTW, Eastlund and HAARP are not the same.



GEOPHYSICAL PROBING.
GENERATION OF ELF/VLF WAVES.
GENERATION OF IONOSPHERIC HOLES/LENS.
ELECTRON ACCELERATION.
GENERATION OF FIELD ALIGNED IONIZATION.
OBLIQUE HF HEATING.
GENERATION OF IONIZATION LAYERS BELOW 90 KM.


Ah, the "let's cite some scary sounding but non-sequitur terms and pretend they relate" attack.



The result is that ELF radiation could be directed to a specific area on the surface of the planet, at will.


You can't really direct ELF. Go find out how tightly you can focus an EM wave based on the wavelength. It's basic EM physics. We'll wait. Hint - anything with a minimum focal spot of a few thousand miles ain't "focused" in my book.



It follows that, by assembling two such scalar potential functions in beams , one can produce a scalar potential interferometer ...


Ah, Bearden. There's no such thing as "scalar waves", and Bearden is, if anything, more full of it than Begich. You'll note that both of them got their doctorates from diploma mills for a few hundred bucks.



Can a scalar potential interferometer be produced?


Your cites are non-sequiturs to your argument - they don't have anything to do with "scalar waves".



Don't you know that you can make your own Scalar waves by wrapping electrical wires around a figure eight in the shape of a möbius coil?


Not really. What you get is a non-inductive wirewound resistor. See also Aryton-Perry windings. The opposing fields reduce the reactance to zero, if done perfectly. That means the only energy transformation going on there is the resistance of the coil turning power into heat.



Weather as a Force Multiplier: Owning the Weather in 2025...


It isn't a guide to current technology. Go read the preface - it'll tell you who wrote it, for whom, and what their backgrounds were. Oh, right, you guys avoid that part like the plague. I like "This report contains fictional representations of future situations/scenarios. Any similarities to real people or events, other than those specifically cited, are unintentional and are for purposes of illustration only."


"In December 1994, the Chief of Staff of the United States Air Force (CSAF) tasked Air University to conduct a study to identify the concepts, capabilities,and technologies the United States will require to remain the dominant air and space force in the first quarter of the 21st century.

The study was called Air Force 2025. What follows are the unclassified final results of that study. They offer a rich glimpse into the future- suggesting the clear imperatives and the important risks and opportunities the United States Air Force might face at the start of the new century.

2025 was a unique challenge-and opportunity-for Air University and the faculty, staff, and students from Air War College and Air Command and Staff College."

It's a term paper from the AF War College.

@tm2ss:



Bu what if we could send and receive messages from subs while submerged at 2000 feet…


You could never send. ELF/VLF are receive only. And yeah, I know what I'm talking about on this one. You have to trail a long wire sensor array to do it - and even then you're not really receiving with it in the sense that it's hooked to a receiver directly - the tail basically looks at the slopes of the e-field produced by the ELF and calculates out what you would have seen with a receiver. It's really indirect. Later receivers ditched the trailing sensor and replaced it with a pair of SQUIDS that looked at the h-field of the ELF.

And no, the wire taps never used ELF either. Ivy Bells used divers and recorders, later versions use various tricks, in some cases a laser is involved, in others there's a buoy that floats at night and sends back data bursts.



posted on Mar, 22 2011 @ 02:32 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 


HAARP limits out at about 30W of actual induced power during perfect conditions, most of the time it's in the single digits

Much of the research at the facility is focused on the generation of ELF/VLF because of the value of these frequencies to the Navy for undersea applications. Propagating radio waves in the ELF/VLF frequency range are generated at the lower edge of the ionosphere when high-power HF radio waves modulate the conductivity of the ionospheric D and E layers in the presence of a background or "electrojet" current. The practical utility of this technique for communication systems is dependent on improving the efficiency and reliability of this process. A recent experiment was performed at HAARP to study the scaling of the ionospherically generated ELF signal with power transmitted from the HF array. Results were in excellent agreement with computer simulations confirming that the ELF power increases with the square of the incident HF power. Furthermore, no saturation effects were observed indicating that greater ELF generation efficiency is possible with greater incident power.


The average nonlinear resonant current vector is found to rotate in relation to the input wavefields during growth, and the magnetospheric linear growth rate is estimated to be 31–45 dB/s.

JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH, VOL. 115, A00F04, doi:10.1029/2009JA014610, 2010

Just have in mind the fact that you have things like Ion Acoustic waves, Gravity Waves, Alfven waves, and more. And even more weird, you can set up long-term STRUCTURES in the ionosphere "bubbles" so to speak that have localized effects that you would never expect. As it turns out, the ionosphere is fairly "gummy" and retains features for a while after the thing causing the feature has come and gone.

Don't even try to gives the impression that HAARP mainly is an academic project with the goal of changing the ionosphere to improve communications for our own good.
We are to smart for such swada.
Lets just take a look at the US military documents that put it more clearly: HAARP aims to learn how to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of Defense purposes"



And you're another one that confuses Starfish Prime with Prime Argus. Bzzt.



Operation Argus was a series of nuclear weapons tests and missile tests secretly conducted during August and September 1958 over the South Atlantic Ocean by the United States's Defense Nuclear Agency, in conjunction with the Explorer 4 space mission. Operation Argus was conducted between the nuclear test series Operation Hardtack I and Operation Hardtack II. Contractors from Lockheed Aircraft Corporation as well as a few personnel and contractors from the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission were on hand as well



Starfish Prime was a high-altitude nuclear test conducted by the United States of America on July 9, 1962, a joint effort of the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) and the Defense Atomic Support Agency (which became the Defense Nuclear Agency in 1971). Launched via a Thor rocket and carrying a W49 thermonuclear warhead (manufactured by Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory) and a Mk. 4 reentry vehicle, the explosion took place 250 miles (400 kilometers) above a point 19 miles (31 kilometers) southwest of Johnston Island in the Pacific Ocean. It was one of five tests conducted by the USA in outer space as defined by the FAI. It produced a yield equivalent to 1.4 megatons of TNT




Oh, and when he (Brooks Agnew) says he was generating 30W of ELF EM using a field rig, that's a damned lie.
If I have read the transcript correct, then he said as follow: In 1983 I did radio tomography with 30 watts looking for oil in the ground. I found 26 oil wells over a nine state area. 100 hundred percent of the time was accurate, which is just 30 watts of power beaming straight into solid rock.
Nothing there about ELF.

With regards to the earth penetrating tomography or Ground Penetrating Radar, then I think you should study this a bit more because most GPR systems operate in the frequency range from DC to several GHz. GPR is a very wide frequency system, and its center frequency is refereed as its operational frequency. In other word, GPR has been UWB radar from the beginning. Typically, GPR for detection of buried objects such as metal pipes use the frequency around 300-700MHz, where the size of the object is about 10cm, and 1-2m in depth. GPR for concrete inspection operates around 1-1.5GHz, where the object is 1cm large and depth is 20-50cm, and GPR for humanitarian demining, operates around 2-3GHz, where the depth of the target is shallower than 20cm. Selection of operation frequency is essential in GPR survey design.
edit on 22/3/2011 by Roald because: Fixing youtube link



posted on Mar, 22 2011 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Roald
reply to post by Bedlam




Much of the research at the facility is focused on the generation of ELF/VLF because of the value of these frequencies to the Navy for undersea applications...


Aren't you supposed to attribute direct copypasta instead of trying to pawn it off as your own?

This was somewhat correct when it was written, which was early in the development of the Gakona facility. However, in the time since, the Navy has discontinued the use of ELF communication, and they've built up or co-sited with a lot of VLF rigs the world over. Now it's VLF or laser based stuff. And yes, there is a saturation level that they ended up finding. And depending on whether you're wobulating or density modulating you run into two different limits. Worse, it's still dependent on the electrojet conditions - you can't always reach it from Gakona.

However, HAARP still does generate ELF for purposes other than communication, because you can use it for inducing cyclotron resonances in charged particles in the inner magnetosphere, among other things.




Just have in mind the fact that you have things like Ion Acoustic waves, Gravity Waves, Alfven waves, and more. And even more weird, you can set up long-term STRUCTURES in the ionosphere "bubbles" so to speak that have localized effects that you would never expect. As it turns out, the ionosphere is fairly "gummy" and retains features for a while after the thing causing the feature has come and gone.


Of course it does. I'd suspect you don't grasp "gravity wave" in this context - it's got nothing to do with Einstein's field equations and more to do with ocean waves. However, this is a "bees smell fear" snip. What point are you trying to address? We could entertain each other with BSF factoids, I guess.



Don't even try to gives the impression that HAARP mainly is an academic project with the goal of changing the ionosphere to improve communications for our own good.


Of course it is. At least partially. I might use a bit different definition for "our own good" than you do, possibly.



HAARP aims to learn how to "exploit the ionosphere for Department of Defense purposes


They paid for it, they get to use the results. Quite a lot of what's done there is eggheaded stuff that's all university research, some of that's useful, and there are other experiments that are less university based, mostly communications related in some way, pro or con.




bla bla bla Operation Argus bla bla Starfish Prime bla bla unattributed copypasta bla bla bad youtube vids


You yet again proved you don't understand what Prime Argus was. I find that really funny - not you in particular - but that multiple people including you don't get it and will actually argue the point in a wild attempt to connect nukes, HAARP and earthquakes.

Let's try again. Prime Argus was a follow on to Vela. It was a research project of D/ARPA which investigated how earthquakes differed from underground/surface nuke shots in their seismological signatures, how one might identify a nuke from other seismological activity, and how you might extract data from the nuke seisomological signatures such as location, depth of detonation, type of weapon, yield, etc. It was not Operation Argus, nor was it Starfish Prime, despite them sharing words in the name. It wasn't even the same groups doing them. It's not unusual for project code names to have shared words, for example Burnt Boot and Burnt Potato, or Prairie/Masker and Prairie Schooner which have no project connection at all. The similarity doesn't imply any sort of connection - they have a code name generator that spits them out from a dictionary. It's actually intended to provoke this sort of confusion, and it obviously worked on you.


If I have read the transcript correct, then he said as follow: In 1983 I did radio tomography with 30 watts looking for oil in the ground. I found 26 oil wells over a nine state area. 100 hundred percent of the time was accurate, which is just 30 watts of power beaming straight into solid rock.
Nothing there about ELF.


You have to read some of his other 'works'. He tells that story a lot. Looking at the rig, you can puzzle out the frequency range, long ago when I first heard of this bozo I bothered to do it but it's been a while. IIRC it looked something like 400MHz, but don't cite me on it. He sometimes says it was radio, other times he'll try to claim it was ELF.



With regards to the earth penetrating tomography or Ground Penetrating Radar, then I think you should study this a bit more because most GPR systems operate in the frequency range from DC to several GHz.


Oh, dude. You're talking to a guy with a EE masters in comm theory here in addition to that physics postgrad. I do this crap for a living. DC? Really? GPR running at DC? No, sorry. Not even really LF, because it requires such a large antenna structure to form propagating radio waves. And then the lower the freq, the worse the resolution, so if you're interested in structures less than a mile long you won't be using LF ranges. Most GPR is above 25MHz. If you want small object resolution, you'll be using VHF and up, but then, of course, you'll be losing gobs of signal to Maxwellian dissipation losses unless it's really dry non-conductive soil. Salt and black mineral deposits play hell with GPR.

Note, of course, that the metal detectors you'll try to bring up don't use a propagating field, they're all near field, and use the h-field component exclusively. That lets you use small radiating structures at, say, 8kHz, but it's not radar, and can't be.

That Sato paper you're quoting without attribution here is chock-full of mistakes, or maybe you could be kind and call it errors when writing in your second language.



GPR is a very wide frequency system, and its center frequency is refereed as its operational frequency. In other word, GPR has been UWB radar from the beginning.


Not at all. There have been UWB GPRs from the beginning, but many of them are not. UWB does help you pick out more details and it's a lot better at dodging narrowband dropouts caused by uniform particle sized conducting crap like black sand deposits. Pre 2000 you didn't see many UWB's, although they go back to the 60s, when the Russians tried to do it with tubes.



posted on Mar, 22 2011 @ 11:29 AM
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Side note to Roald:

If 30W of 400MHz (or even UWB...) causes earthquakes, then why aren't you having them anywhere you have a transmitter? TV stations operate in that general vicinity, at least the UHF channels do, along with probably a million other sources.



posted on Apr, 9 2011 @ 12:41 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 
The carrier frequency are of no interest here, and you should know that.



posted on Apr, 11 2011 @ 12:18 AM
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"First I do NOT deny the possibility. I have an open mind and am perfectly happy to accept that HAARP can do this if proof is provided, and by proof I mean scientific proof - a description of the process by which this can occur."- Quote by Puterman

1- What would you consider to be absolute proof?

2- How would one go about aquiring this absolute proof?

A description of the process likely will only be a 'theory' and that theory will likely only be available based upon the limited amount of actual data available.

By reading this thread and the many others like it, as well as the amount of info on the subject here and elsewhere, I feel there's more than enough 'evidence' to consider, but perhaps not 'proof'.

So in the end people will have to make up their own minds, I doubt any 'proof' will be attainable.
edit on 11-4-2011 by Tecumte because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2011 @ 12:45 AM
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I ran across this and thought it was interesting. I'm not sure if it relates to this discussion, but it speaks about a fault or area possibly emitting a ULF frequency before an earthquake.

Scientists debate new evidence for electromagnetic earthquake predictors


Twelve days before the Loma Prieta earthquake Fraser- Smith's detector recorded a large signal. The signal remained high until three hours before the earthquake, when it shot up even further.

"The signal was off scale, 20 to 30 times bigger than what we usually measure," Fraser-Smith said. "We nearly shut down the Corralitos system because we thought something was wrong with it."

Then the earthquake hit, disabling the system for eight hours.


Large, impending earthquakes may broadcast warnings


Like geological ninjas, earthquakes can strike without warning. But there may be a way to detect the footfalls of large earthquakes before they strike, alerting their potential victims a week or more in advance. A Stanford professor thinks a method to provide just such warnings may have been buried in the scientific literature for over 40 years.

In October, Japan instituted a nationwide earthquake warning system that heralds the advance of a big earthquake; its sophisticated machinery senses the shaking deep in the earth and transmits a warning signal that can beat the tremors to the surface by seconds. Antony Fraser-Smith, professor emeritus of electrical engineering and of geophysics, has evidence that big temblors emit a burst of ultra-low-frequency electromagnetic radio waves days or even weeks before they hit. The problem is that nobody is paying enough attention.


Geological ninjas...nice.



posted on Apr, 11 2011 @ 04:28 AM
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reply to post by Bedlam
 



the known ELF frequency"? There's only one? Sigh.


I think you are misreading the OP. I did not say that. That was reporting another poster's post so please do not be "sighing" at me since I concur with your viewpoint and was asking the numpties people who think HAARP can cause earthquakes to prove it.

Edit to say:
Now that i have go to the end of your post I would give you applause if I was a Mod. Thank you. All great stuff.

edit on 11/4/2011 by PuterMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 11 2011 @ 12:07 PM
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Originally posted by Tecumte
"First I do NOT deny the possibility. I have an open mind and am perfectly happy to accept that HAARP can do this if proof is provided, and by proof I mean scientific proof - a description of the process by which this can occur."- Quote by Puterman

1- What would you consider to be absolute proof?

2- How would one go about aquiring this absolute proof?

A description of the process likely will only be a 'theory' and that theory will likely only be available based upon the limited amount of actual data available.

By reading this thread and the many others like it, as well as the amount of info on the subject here and elsewhere, I feel there's more than enough 'evidence' to consider, but perhaps not 'proof'.

So in the end people will have to make up their own minds, I doubt any 'proof' will be attainable.
edit on 11-4-2011 by Tecumte because: (no reason given)


You have quoted what I said which is that the process needs to be described that can permit a radio wave to cause an earthquake. A description of the process that is only a theory negates the argument that it has happened as it should be possible to describe factually the process whereby this can occur. What evidence is there? Please describe in detail any 'evidence' that HAARP has created or triggered earthquakes. Circumstantial timing is NOT evidence and in any event the magnetometer is not a record of the activities of the HF array so quoting activity on the magnetometer is only confirming potential solar activity.

There is far more possibility, though not confirmed yet, that CMEs can trigger earthquakes and even that is dubious.

I am sorry but the "Blessed is he who has not seen yet believes" syndrome does not apply to science, only to religion and conspiracy theory.



posted on Apr, 11 2011 @ 07:44 PM
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reply to post by PuterMan
 


I see that you appear to be quite interested in the search for info regarding HAARP.

What have you been able to find in the way of info to share in your searches?

What I would like to know is the following, have you been able to find answers regarding the following?

1-What types of military satellites such as nuclear powered have been launched that carry EM or similar type weapons based systems that might work in conjuction with HAARP?

2- With the many reported similar systems spread around the globe, how many exactly does NATO control and how do these systems interact and support one another?

3- How many nuclear ships and subs have this technology and how do they interact with the land based systems and any potential satellite systems?



posted on Apr, 18 2011 @ 02:33 AM
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Didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, just stopped at the mention of HAARP not using ELF.

HAARP
Detection and Imaging of Underground Structures Using ELF/VLF Radio Waves


ELF/VLF radio waves penetrate deeply beneath the surface of the earth and interact with the geologic structure of the earth. This interaction induces secondary fields with measurable effect at and above the surface of the earth. Proper understanding of the physics of the generation and propagation of ELF/VLF waves and their interactions with earth materials will allow these waves to be used for applications such as sub-surface communications and exploration of the subsurface geological structure. The research called for under this effort is to assess the viability of exploiting the concept of electromagnetic induction to detect and image subterranean features such as tunnels, bunkers, and other potential military targets


www.fas.org...

official HAARP site (not the University front
)
The High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program
www.nrl.navy.mil...

Title: Russian parliament concerned about US plans to develop new weapon
Document Number: FBIS-SOV-2002-0808
Document Date: 08 Aug 2002
Division: Russia, North America
Subdivision: Russia, United States
Sourceline: CEP20020808000087 Moscow Interfax in English 1009 GMT 8 Aug 02
Citysource: Moscow Interfax
Language: English


[FBIS Transcribed Text] MOSCOW. Aug 8 (Interfax) - The Russian State Duma has expressed concern about the United States' program to develop a qualitatively new type of weapon. "Under the High Frequency Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP), the U.S. is creating new integral geophysical weapons that may influence the near-Earth medium with high-frequency radio waves," the State Duma said in an appeal circulated on Thursday.



The U.S. plans to carry out large-scale scientific experiments, under the HAARP program, and not controlled by the global community, will create weapons capable of breaking radio communication lines and equipment installed on spaceships and rockets, provoke serious accidents in electricity networks and in oil and gas pipelines and have a negative impact on the mental health of people populating entire regions, the deputies said.


www.fas.org...

NAVY and NASA - The REAL "Chemtrails"
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Not about Chemtrails, but trails of chemicals in space launched by NASA for HAARP weapons related (shield defense) experiments. This was dropped into skunkworks until ATS realized it was the real deal


Every One Speaks about HAARP, but did you know
www.abovetopsecret.com...

This one lists all the HAARP like facilities around the world (I probably missed some and am still seeking two others in China) and the related networks like EISCAT (European Incoherent Scatter)


Simulations of ELF radiation generated by heating the high-latitude D- region

H.L. Rowland, Beam Physics Branch, Plasma Physics Division, Naval Research Laboratory, Washington, D.C.

By modulating the ambient current flowing in the ionosphere, e.g., the auroral electrojet, it is possible to generate extremely low frequency (ELF) and very low frequency (VLF) radiation. This ionospheric modification technique can provide such waves for probing both the Earth and the ionosphere- magnetosphere. The modification occurs in the lower D-region and can provide information about the ambient conditions in one of the least diagnosed regions of the ionosphere.

The electrojet is modulated by using a high frequency heater (a few MHZ) with the power modulated at the desired ELF/VLF frequency to heat the ionospheric electrons in the lower D-region.


wwwppd.nrl.navy.mil/whatsnew/haa rp
edit on 18-4-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2011 @ 12:11 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 



Didn't have time to read the whole thread yet, just stopped at the mention of HAARP not using ELF.


With all due respect Zorgon then I think you should. This is not about whether HAARP can generate ELF waves - it can. It is about whether ELF RADIO waves can trigger earthquakes.

No mechanism has been provided yet whereby this can be achieved.



posted on Apr, 22 2011 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by PuterMan
 


Here are some links to a couple of papers that conclude that earthquakes can be predicted in the short term by careful monitoring of the ionosphere in the ELF range. They are based on the science of seismicelectromagnitism.



Principle Component Analysis was able to discriminate clear ionospheric total electron content anomalies in the months when all 18 earthquakes occurred, and such anomalies existed earlier than this 5-day statistical window

downloads.hindawi.com/journals/ijgp/2011/763527.pdf



The main and probably most important conclusion lies in the fact that the level of our present knowledge of ionospheric precursors of earthquake permits us to use them already in short term earthquake prediction

tao.cgu.org.tw...

What is most likely is the effect HAARP has on the magnetic fields of the Earth. By manipulating these magnetic fields in the outer atmosphere the repercussions will extend towards the Earth's core. By causing alterations in the natural magnetic forces within the Earth it introduce external stresses to the tectonic plates and induce earthquakes.



posted on Apr, 22 2011 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by PuterMan
No mechanism has been provided yet whereby this can be achieved.


Try scalar waves
HAARP can produce those too

But why would the PTB want to destroy the world? You cannot control that which you destroy
edit on 22-4-2011 by zorgon because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2011 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by zorgon
 


Unproven.

Next try.


But why would the PTB want to destroy the world? You cannot control that which you destroy


On that we agree!!
edit on 22/4/2011 by PuterMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2011 @ 03:35 PM
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reply to post by kwakakev
 


Hi, yes I am aware of this, and the studies being done of peizo-electric charges prior to earthquakes. The point is that interesting as this, and it is very interesting, there is no connection proven between ELF radio waves and earthquakes. Even if an earthquake produces ELF waves - which of course it does as the vibrations of an earthquakes are ELF waves in the 0.5 to 8 or so Hz range, this does not mean that ELF waves cause earthquakes.

Don't get me wrong I am happy to believe that they can if it can be demonstrated but so far no has come up with an answer scientifically as to how this can be achieved.

Edit to add:


causing alterations in the natural magnetic forces within the Earth it introduce external stresses to the tectonic plates and induce earthquakes.


Even if it did that, which it obviously does not, if could not be directed. The stresses in the tectonic plates are not magnetic, or based on magnetism. The electro-magnetic signal is a by product of the crushing of rock.

edit on 22/4/2011 by PuterMan because: (no reason given)





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