Gypsies: The Last Acceptable Form of Racism

reply to post by Jinglelord

You keep referring to racism...it is not racism! I am the same race as the people who turn up in transit vans, with trailers, and a bunch of vicious dogs, and camp on any available ground they find, then laying waste to it.

To my mind, calling them travellers is probably the most apt description, because they travel around from place to place. We also have an issue in Scotland with neds, they live in houses, wear tracksuits and guzzle buckfast, and I've no more desire to come across a bunch of them! However, due to the fact that they live in houses, and claim benefits, they are more readily held accountable for their crimes, because the police can more easily find them, as opposed to the "travellers" or should we call them "the criminal element who happen to live in caravans, and move around the country causing problems" (to avoid a label) who as has been previously mentioned, don't have fixed addresses, don't even have fixed names, and who just move off before they can be charged with anything.

reply to post by destination now


If traveler isn't associated with an ethnic group I for one would see no issue there.

It scares me to think that a group of criminals can hide behind the "racist" card. And if the travelers in Scotland are indeed actually Scottish then they shouldn't be able to do that! From what I gather the Irish Travelers (apparently they aren't really Irish but an ethnic group of unknown origin) and the Roma Travelers are distinct ethnic minorities and as such it would be easy for them to scream persecution because of their ethnicity.

This is why to me it would be so important for officials and people to be educated that the issue is a bunch of people cruising around in caravans committing crimes and moving on and not any one ethnic group. I know you understand this, but a quick google search of Gypsies reveals a very many do not.

reply to post by Jinglelord


And herein lies the problem, because they have managed to get themselves an ethnic label, it's called Gypsy Traveller, and throughout this thread, the majority of posters have made a clear distinction between the two. There are groups, usually associated with the Romany Gypsies, who don't cause any trouble, but the Irish (or often Scottish and English) travellers are a whole different ball game, and it is wrong that they can use that ethnic card to deflect their actions, but at the end of the day, it is their own actions, and if they didn't do what they do, then people would not have an issue with them. In fact people would support them to get access to land to camp on, but not when they are going to terrorise the neighbourhood and cause chaos and totally wreck the land they've camped on.

Okay, i must ask you on behalf of the true romanian people to stop calling gypsies RRoma because that is nothing more than a self entitlenment that the 'king' of gypsies asked for to make them feel romanian and less discriminated.

Furthermore, in a few years you will not be able to punish a gypsie for commiting a crime because you will be labled as a racist. Now , if the police arrests a gypsie for a crime (even murder, which is about every 2 days) you will see the 'pirande', make a scene in front of the police screaming, crying and threatening to kil themselves(if they are normal gypsies with no influence) or to kill the policemen (if they are influential men) and well there are some cases in which gypsies beat the police for this or even kill an officer.

I will repeat what i said in my previous post. Do not trust the apearance because you will never know when one of them will stab you to steal your wallet.

reply to post by AlexIR


Sorry for the confusion, but we have groups in the UK who call themselves Romany Gypsies, but I, and most people I know certainly don't associate them with the people of Romania, but I can understand why you would feel the way you do about this association.

But I agree this it is shocking that certain groups cannot be accused of anything, lest the accuser is accused of racism and bigotry, and it is then the accuser who gets into trouble, rather than the person who has committed the real crime.

reply to post by destination now


Its not about the confusion, its about the statemants and what the so called king of the gypsies said and did.

He first stated that the rroma were the first in romania and that we are scum and we should leave and thats why he tries to do everything to make the gypsies be more and more romanian ...

When he government adopted a law where they were called gypsies everywhere even in official documents that SOAB sued the gov and even called the initiator of the law a gypsie because everyone in romania is a gypsy by his standards.

Originally posted by AlexIR
Okay, i must ask you on behalf of the true romanian people to stop calling gypsies RRoma because that is nothing more than a self entitlenment that the 'king' of gypsies asked for to make them feel romanian and less discriminated.

The terms Romani, Romany, Roma, Rom, Rrom and whatever other variations there are did not originate in Romania and were not first adopted there. "Romani" is the official term that the United Nations uses for gypsies. You can hardly expect the whole world, including Romas themselves, to stop using the term because of the (unfortunate) similarity to Romania/ Romanians.

You shouldn't feel offended by this similarity. Most people know the difference, and those that don't... Oh well. Educate them.

I have experienced 4 different types of what people call "Gypsies".
1. True Gypsies or Romanies as they are often referred-to in the UK.
2. Spanish Gypsies who live in my village here in Spain.
3. Romanian "Roma" .
4. Irish Tinkers AKA "Travellers".

No 1 has never been a problem in my experience. They simply live apart and like to keep on the move. Nothing wrong with that, its their choice.

No 2 actually don`t go anywhere, they live in houses just like the rest of us and they tend to sing a lot. Their behaviour seems to depend on what family they are from. The extended family that lives here are no trouble and, I think, see us foreigners as being "different" like themselves. In the next town there is a different family and they are trouble.

No 3 passed through here just after Romania and eastern Europe joined the EU. Crime shot-up. Shops were robbed, a Bar owner was pepper-sprayed along with his wife in their bed so that these thieves could steal his TV and a few other things. They were caught, by accident, by the Local Police while struggling to get the beeg TV into the back of their car.
Also they smell so bad that our local Supermarket staff began spraying the shop after they had entered the premises. They have gone now and crime is virtually non-existent.

No 4 are Irish Tinkers. I first encountered them back in Ireland where they are hated and with good reason. They will steal anything they can get hold of. One of them came to my Granny`s front door selling things apparently. I looked out of the upstairs back window and saw the Tinker woman`s son making off with lengths of copper piping from our backyard. I shot him up the backside with an air-rifle.
If you go to Dublin you will find them squatting in houses there. You will know where they live because they keep their horses in the front gardens and gallop them up and down the streets. No Taxi-driver will take you down the streets they live in either, such is their reputation.

Like anyone else, you have to live near these people to know them.

reply to post by Jinglelord


It's not racism.
I don't think my 'race' is superior to any other 'race'.
It's about lifestyle, culture and attitude.

I assure you, you would be horrified if I was to start relating some specific stories about my personal experiences.

I have been to Eastern Europe on several occassions and I have seen Roma gypsy's and how they live.
I have spoken to non-Roma in these countries and they have told me many stories of their experiences with them.

I live in a town that has two large Irish travelling communities and have quite a significant amount of personal experience of various types of dealings with them.

The popular, romantic image of the wandering itinerant gypsy who is unfairly ostracised and victimised by the rest of society simply for being different is a complete fallacy and couldn't be further from the truth.

I really felt the need to post these pictures:






Their houses ...


This one is just to funny not to post it

One of the problems with racism is that it unfairly stereotypes. The last acceptable form of discrimination may end up being cigarette smokers. I've seen some non smoking activists who perceive smokers as a class. They assign the same sweeping guttural descriptions of low intelligence and lack of self control that are stereotypical of racists.

reply to post by Extreme Pilgrim


"Gypsies" are indeed the most segregated people in Europe, and the example of the racial intolerance of the "White" European middle-class, as well as most of the mainstream politicians.

Authorities use the Law to repress them, based on the sole fact that they don't live according to the same model of civilization, or same culture. SInce two years, governments of countries like the Netherlands, Italy, Germany and France have been using new regulations to DEPORT hundreds of Roma families to East Europe, espcially to Romania, under the ridiculous assumption that it's their homeland.

Gypsies have been in Europe for centuries, and most of them are actually Christians. They just don't happen to live by the same standards and aren't as fair-skinned as most other northern Europeans. IN places like Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece they live about the same way as most people, becase they werre not segregated there.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by Jinglelord

 

It's not racism.
I don't think my 'race' is superior to any other 'race'.
It's about lifestyle, culture and attitude.

I assure you, you would be horrified if I was to start relating some specific stories about my personal experiences.

I have been to Eastern Europe on several occassions and I have seen Roma gypsy's and how they live.
I have spoken to non-Roma in these countries and they have told me many stories of their experiences with them.

I live in a town that has two large Irish travelling communities and have quite a significant amount of personal experience of various types of dealings with them.

The popular, romantic image of the wandering itinerant gypsy who is unfairly ostracised and victimised by the rest of society simply for being different is a complete fallacy and couldn't be further from the truth.

I also had terrible personal experiences with the Police in Western countries, just with White bourgeois straight people from plastic suburbs, who usually are careful hiding their moral twistings beneath a thick layer of "civilization". But their world is full of rapists, crooks, murderers and child abusers.

Yes it's true, when some person from North America travels to East Europe, he/she'll be most probably estranged, if not revolted by the reality of the Roma lifestyle. In Romania you can even get easily robbed by one of these train station gypsie gangs. But it's nothing big... Should a foreign-looking person go to a crappy train station in places like Slovakia, Ukraine, Croatia, Eastern Germany, Poland, and he/she'll likely get beaten and/stabbed to death by very fair-skinned guys who love Hitler and wear "Thor Steiner" T-shirts. As you may notice, East Europe is WILD, in general.

reply to post by AlexIR


So the first two pictures can very easily have been any homeless camp in California. Seriously we don't call them travelers we call them homeless and we feed them and if the cause a ruckus they get arrested where they get fed and locked up instead of just fed.

I guess the difference is I've wandered the fields where our homeless live and they actually clean up after themselves because if they don't they will get labelled a nuisance and moved.

Another thought that occured to me as to why many have a negative view, is their own enforced segregation.

Yes they will enter our towns and shops but they generally keep to themselves and will do these activities in groups of gypsies. Whilst it may be unjustified depending on your view this can instill thoughts such as 'what do they think they're better than us'. Which of course would lead to dislike. And it keeps them unfamiliar, and we fear and don't like the unfamiliar.


Though again of course this is not true of all gypsies. I do know one or two people who have friends who are/used to be gypsies; though not from the camp near me. And there was the episode of 'BFGW' where a non gypsy girl married a gypsy man. So it does occur, but it isn't very often.

reply to post by Echtelion


Well you can have all of ours then, and I'll bet you change your point of view! I do sometimes wonder if people like yourself have actually read the posts here from people who have regular dealings with these groups? Does it not bother you that a group of violent rowdy people can turn up on your doorstep and turn it into a cesspit, and there's very little the police can do?

You talk of oppression, believe me, when they move in, it is the locals who are oppressed, not the other way round!

reply to post by StevenDye


Thats a good point! Insular communities are generally xenophobic which is a kind of racism in and of itself. Once you feel like a group hates you and is racist against you it takes a really strong and benevolent person not to hate back.

Originally posted by Jinglelord
reply to post by StevenDye

 

Thats a good point! Insular communities are generally xenophobic which is a kind of racism in and of itself. Once you feel like a group hates you and is racist against you it takes a really strong and benevolent person not to hate back.

So, is the implication now, that we are not strong and benevolent enough? Not only do we have to put up with the carnage caused, but also, even though they are 'xenophobic' in your words, against other communities, we are not supposed to hate them back? Well okay, to be honest, I don't hate them, I don't hate anyone! Hate takes far too much energy and time! But that does not change the fact that they are a real problem in communities throughout the UK and Europe, and I think we can be rightly annoyed at their actions and behaviour, without being branded as racists and bigots.

Sorry if it was not your intention to imply such a thing, but you seem to have been singularly determined to somehow prove that we are racist, bigoted and intolerant throughout this thread, by continuously mentioning race and ethnicity, when many posters have provided numerous, well balanced, and factual, rather than hateful information to you, to prove that this is indeed not the case.

However, I do wonder how, in the event that you had first hand experience of these groups, just how stong and benevolent you would be in the face of threats to your family and home?

It is quite revealing that the only people making accusations of racism and defending gypsy's are those with little or no actual experience of them.
Those of us who do have real and extensive experiences of them all seem to have quite independantly come to very similar opinions.

reply to post by destination now


It seems I've been misunderstood. Not surprising given my penchant looking at the big picture rather than the actual issue.

I am certain that I am not strong and benevolent enough to not return hatred of with at least the very least distrust if not outright hatred. Some people are but they are the exception in humanity not the rule. Am I saying you aren't? I don't know if you are or aren't and I'm also not even sure if it's a good trait to not return a little distrust and hate when you're hated. .

Besides you have made it quite clear you are not a racist and I am not trying to push that you are. You are looking at the problem and not the Ethnicity. It is my firm opinion that in order to solve this issue in a manner that does not lead to ethnic cleansing it is very important to make a clear distinction of what the problem is. The problem is the activity, which if I understand is perpetrated by no less than 4 Ethnic groups and 2 of which are part of the majority populations for their areas as well.

Here is what I would do if I was the authorities: I would find a problem group that is clearly of a majority population ethnicity and persecute them to the ends of the earth until they are locked up and dispersed. Charge them with every imaginable crime and harass them non stop. Once the precedent is set that it is not a racist activity it would be a lot easier to clear out the problem groups that are of a minority ethnicity.

I am not disagreeing there is a problem; from what I read here I would be up in arms. If this works anything like it does in the US though you need to be very very careful to ensure it is NOT a ethnic issue otherwise the people trying to stop the anti-social trouble making will have a much tougher go of it.

On a personal level the pariah status of any kind of racism has caused almost as many problems and deeper hatred than racism itself. I advocate that all people should simply have equal rights and all people need to follow the same laws and we can leave ethnicity completely out of the picture. And thats what you have here. A group of people who think they should be subject to different laws. They think they can do this because the ethnicity card has been pulled far too often in the modern world.