Here is a thread for you to attack atheism and atheists.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I believe it is the younger totally cool adherents to the belief system that is Atheism which has ruined the name period, so some try to attach it to anything else at all when they should keep their professions of the belief to themselves... people who attack Christians in my Country especially back in the day were called satanist... but Atheism is a form of soft-satanism really because of their actions...

I met the face of atheism on ATS actually... I am not to fond of it anymore...

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Then those would be 'gnostic atheists', who claim to have knowledge that a deity doesn't exist. Of course, they still don't believe in a deity, they just take a further step in claiming it doesn't and/or cannot exist.

The definitions still stand. Even those who claim that there isn't a god don't believe in a god.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Then those would be 'gnostic atheists', who claim to have knowledge that a deity doesn't exist. Of course, they still don't believe in a deity, they just take a further step in claiming it doesn't and/or cannot exist.

The definitions still stand. Even those who claim that there isn't a god don't believe in a god.

Is there God? Yes or no?

Does He exist? Yes or no?

reply to post by Cosmic.Artifact

I met the face of atheism on ATS actually... I am not to fond of it anymore...

Regardless, Christ died for Atheists too.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Then those would be 'gnostic atheists', who claim to have knowledge that a deity doesn't exist. Of course, they still don't believe in a deity, they just take a further step in claiming it doesn't and/or cannot exist.

The definitions still stand. Even those who claim that there isn't a god don't believe in a god.

Is there God? Yes or no?

False dilemma. That is not a valid yes or no question, as the nature of such a being is quite complex. There might be a deity, but there is currently no evidence to support the existence of any deity.

Does He exist? Yes or no?

Well, it would be doubtful that gender characteristics would apply to an all-powerful being...I mean, what use would a deity have for a Y chromosome?

Of course, the whole point is that the question is possibly unanswerable. "I don't believe in any deity" means that either there is conclusive proof that there are no deities or there is not enough proof for to reasonably arrive at the conclusion of the existence of at least one of them.

Please, stop skewing the issue with a lack of logic and an oversimplification of a quite complex question.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

False dilemma.

Yes or no, do you think God exists?

That is not a valid yes or no question, as the nature of such a being is quite complex.

You're wiggling from making a positive declaration. Answer the question for yourself. Does God exist?

There might be a deity, but there is currently no evidence to support the existence of any deity.

How do you know there isn't? Have you examined all the evidence? Have you seen every alleged evidence? If so I'm quite impressed Madness. Come on, at least have some intellectual honesty and state "to the best of my limited knowledge God doesn't exist." Unless of course you can claim omniscience and omnipresence.

Well, it would be doubtful that gender characteristics would apply to an all-powerful being...I mean, what use would a deity have for a Y chromosome?

I asked for a Yes or No, I suppose since there is a "Y" in your reply that you were sorta in the ballpark to telling me your belief about God's existence. Does God exist, or not?

Of course, the whole point is that the question is possibly unanswerable. "I don't believe in any deity" means that either there is conclusive proof that there are no deities or there is not enough proof for to reasonably arrive at the conclusion of the existence of at least one of them.

That's your opinion Madness. I categorically disagree. You can't tell me your personal answer to my question is "unanswerable". Yes or no, does God exist or not?

Please, stop skewing the issue with a lack of logic and an oversimplification of a quite complex question.

Hardly. My post is very on topic, you claim Atheism, so do you think God exists? The thread is waiting for your answer.

Here is a thread for you to attack atheism and atheists.

(Disclaimer : This is not a troll post, but a way to show how pointles that is, all those threads attacking each others persons beliefs.)



Oh Ok. Let´s attack Atheism and Atheists then.

I hereby officialy attacking Atheism and Atheists. Your turn.

Peace

Originally posted by xpert11
you also buy into the kind of notion that no one can prove that the tooth fairy doesn't exist either.

Sorry, but by logic, you cannot prove that the tooth fairy does not exist, because this requires an absolute conclusion based on non-absolute observations. You might say "I don't think that the tooth fairy exists" or "I've seen no evidence that the tooth fairy exists," but that's the end of it. Another person, on the other hand, who had some sort of personal experience with the tooth fairy (or with a close approximation) can clearly and truthfully state that "I know that the tooth fairy exists."

Ironically, the only one who can categorically state that God doesn't exist is God himself. People who claim "I know that God doesn't exist" don't seem to get the obviousness of that.

If I had a complaint with some atheists (not all, and Madness, you're not one that I count among them,) it would be with the exceedingly arrogant attitude of "I'm right, you're wrong, and to prove my point, I'm going to treat you like you're an idiot." But the atheistic position is, oddly, one in which a person can NEVER know whether they are right. So I suppose the "in your face" attitude of some is meant to make up for the absence of the possibility of being able to say "I told you so" upon their death.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

I asked for a Yes or No, I suppose since there is a "Y" in your reply that you were sorta in the ballpark to telling me your belief about God's existence. Does God exist, or not?

Arguing "against" God is like cat herding. It's a futile effort until someone has defined "God".

Define your God and I will tell you why she does not exist.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Hardly. My post is very on topic, you claim Atheism, so do you think God exists? The thread is waiting for your answer.

Atheism is a lack of belief, not a claim.

Originally posted by Ersatz

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

I asked for a Yes or No, I suppose since there is a "Y" in your reply that you were sorta in the ballpark to telling me your belief about God's existence. Does God exist, or not?

Arguing "against" God is like cat herding. It's a futile effort until someone has defined "God".

Define your God and I will tell you why she does not exist.

Ignosticism, then.

Since I may come back to this thread, for the sake of expediency I'll just come out and say it. I am a strong agnostic ignostic atheist. No, none of those positions are contradictory.

"Strong atheism" means that I believe that no gods exist. "Agnostic atheism" means that I believe that this can never be proven. It can be implied via lack of evidence, but it can't be proven. "Ignostic atheism" means that I lack belief in gods and also think that many definitions of "god" are too vague to judge.

Hopefully that didn't confuse anybody.

Originally posted by Ersatz



Arguing "against" God is like cat herding. It's a futile effort until someone has defined "God".



Define your God and I will tell you why she does not exist.

You're implying that however God is described you can tell me why she/he doesn't exist. That's a positive affirmation. You're implying that however one chooses to define God your opinion is that He/she doesn't exist. And not only that, but you can demonstrate for us all that He/she doesn't exist.

Feel free to do so.

Atheism is a lack of belief, not a claim.

False. As I have stated, quite often even in these forum threads you'll read post that states: "God doesn't exist" or "There is no such thing as God."

Or shall I play the same game and when asked for proof of God's existence claim that "I simply lack the belief that God does not exist"?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You're implying that however God is described you can tell my why she/he doesn't exist. that's a positive affirmation. You're implying that however one chooses to define God your opinion is that He/she doesn't exist. And not only that, but you can demonstrate for us all that He/she doesn't exist.

Well, no. Ersatz wasn't saying that.

Your avatar clearly implies that you believe in the Abrahamic Christian God. Ersatz was stating that he could likely disprove your god if you confirmed that your definition was the Biblical one. I see nothing in his/her post saying that he/she believes that every definition of "god" can be disproven.

Atheism is a lack of belief, not a claim.

False. As I have stated, quite often even in these forum threads you'll read post that states: "God doesn't exist" or "There is no such thing as God."

Those are posts by atheists, but that is not what atheism is. Ersatz is correct. Atheism is lack of belief in gods. Atheists sometimes claim that gods do not exist, but this is not a requirement of atheism.

Or shall I play the same game and when asked for proof of God's existence claim that "I simply lack the belief that God does not exist"?

You could, but the logical equivalent of that statement is that you believe that God exists, and thus it gets you nowhere. "I lack belief in God" and "God does not exist", on the other hand, are not logically equivalent. Atheism is the former position, not the latter. Atheists can also hold the latter position, but it isn't required of them.

Originally posted by Golden Boy

Well, no. Ersatz wasn't saying that.

He said precisely that actually.

Your avatar clearly implies that you believe in the Abrahamic Christian God. Ersatz was stating that he could likely disprove your god if you confirmed that your definition was the Biblical one. I see nothing in his/her post saying that he/she believes that every definition of "god" can be disproven.

No, Ersatz said "someone", not "you/your". Secondly, Ersatz said God is a "she", therefore is not describing the Abrahamic Christian God defined in the Bible.

Those are posts by atheists, but that is not what atheism is.

Ahhh yes, the "No True Scottsman" fallacy.

Ersatz is correct. Atheism is lack of belief in gods. Atheists sometimes claim that gods do not exist, but this is not a requirement of atheism.

It's a wiggle statement to avoid an irrational position that is impossible to hold. It's impossible for someone to know that God doesn't exist. That's why Atheists often claim they have a lack of belief in God, because to state that God is non-existent would take omniscience and omnipresence.

You could, but the logical equivalent of that statement is that you believe that God exists, and thus it gets you nowhere. "I lack belief in God" and "God does not exist", on the other hand, are not logically equivalent. Atheism is the former position, not the latter. Atheists can also hold the latter position, but it isn't required of them.

That's why Agnosticism is an intellectually honest position to have, Atheism is not. The most anyone can claim and still maintain intellectual honesty is "To the best of my limited knowledge God does not exist." to hold to the belief that God is non-existent anywhere in the known or unknown universe is absurd without omniscience or omnipresence.

And the purposeful avoidance of the affirmative position by word games is an attempt to mask the absurd knowledge Atheists claim to have.

reply to post by Drezden

Aren't most British people atheist as a rule?

Never heard of any such rule. A lot of people raised into a certain faith may be Atheist but are christined/baptised.

It's almost impossible to get an accurate statistic of "lack of belief", especially in the UK. Again, like in many Middle Eastern cultures, people may be afraid of announcing there lack of belief for whatever reason. And most carry the label of their parents, regardless of belief.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Is there God? Yes or no?

Does He exist? Yes or no?

I, personally, don't know - That's where my Agnostic Atheism position comes from. I think Gnostic Atheism AND the Gnostic Theism are both irrational positions......

Gnostic Atheism can be rational depending on if you define GOD. Anyone claiming to "KNOW" God's description is doing so without evidence, i can assert that this is not true, especially if God is described as "intervening". If you can't prove God, you can only describe God using nature, this is the Pantheism stance.

For instance, I'm agnostic to infinity or a creator but i'm GNOSTIC towards "Neptune - God of the sea."

Regardless, Christ died for Atheists too.

Not for me, Vicarious redemption is immoral preaching. I'm not bound by a human sacrifice that took place a few thousand years ago.

Yes or no, do you think God exists?

Define God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Your avatar clearly implies that you believe in the Abrahamic Christian God. Ersatz was stating that he could likely disprove your god if you confirmed that your definition was the Biblical one. I see nothing in his/her post saying that he/she believes that every definition of "god" can be disproven.

No, Ersatz said "someone", not "you/your".

Originally posted by Ersatz
Define your God

Secondly, Ersatz said God is a "she", therefore is not describing the Abrahamic Christian God defined in the Bible.

Aside from the possibility of simple mis-typing, I've heard Christians describe their god as a she - or, more commonly, gender-neutral, as it is supposed to be a "higher" being - as well as a he. But even if Ersatz didn't mean it that way, he/she was quite clearly asking for your definition. If part of that definition was the correction from "she" to "he", then fine. The point still stands.

Those are posts by atheists, but that is not what atheism is.

Ahhh yes, the "No True Scottsman" fallacy.

No. I did not say that these posters are not atheists. In fact, I am one of those posters, at least when it comes to the Abrahamic Christian god. We are quite definitely atheists. We simply hold extra beliefs.

The only thing required for atheism is to lack belief in gods. The belief that no gods exist - or that a specific god does not exist - is not required. It isn't contradictory, but it isn't required.

Ersatz is correct. Atheism is lack of belief in gods. Atheists sometimes claim that gods do not exist, but this is not a requirement of atheism.

It's a wiggle statement to avoid an irrational position that is impossible to hold.

What is?

It's impossible for someone to know that God doesn't exist.

"It's impossible for someone to know that there is no leprechaun standing next to them, where 'leprechaun' is defined as a visible, two-foot-tall Irishman in a green tuxedo and matching top hat".

No. It doesn't work. It is very much possible to know that a certain god does not exist.

Note, though, the critical phrase: a certain god does not exist. Because there are as many definitions of "god" as there are believers, it is indeed impossible to know that no gods at all exist. But we can know, for example, that the Abrahamic god does not exist, because the evidence that his existence would mandate is not present. We know, for example, that there was no global flood, which is one of the things which would be required if the Biblical god existed.

As I said, though, it's not possible to rule out every god. Hence agnostic ignostic atheism.

That's why Atheists often claim they have a lack of belief in God, because to state that God is non-existent would take omniscience and omnipresence.

Not in all cases, but you are essentially correct. Atheists do not claim that absolutely no gods exist, because we are not omnipotent or omnipresent, and there is no concrete definition of "god" to work from in the first place. It's not a "wiggle statement". It's logic.

You could, but the logical equivalent of that statement is that you believe that God exists, and thus it gets you nowhere. "I lack belief in God" and "God does not exist", on the other hand, are not logically equivalent. Atheism is the former position, not the latter. Atheists can also hold the latter position, but it isn't required of them.

That's why Agnosticism is an intellectually honest position to have, Atheism is not.

Agnosticism is not on the same scale as atheism and theism. Atheism and theism deal with belief. Agnosticism and gnosticism deal with the possibility of knowledge.

Atheism: lack of belief in gods.
Theism: belief in a god or gods.
Agnosticism: belief that the truth of some matter, particularly theism versus atheism, can never be known.
Gnosticism: belief that the truth of some matter, particularly theism versus atheism, can be known.

You are attempting to compare apples to oranges. Agnosticism and atheism are not mutually exclusive. In fact, in most cases, those who declare themselves as agnostic are actually agnostic atheists who simply don't know the actual definitions of the terms that they are discussing.

If you don't actively espouse belief in a deity or deities, you are an atheist. Most self-described agnostics are atheists, but a few are theists who tend toward doubt.

The most anyone can claim and still maintain intellectual honesty is "To the best of my limited knowledge God does not exist."

Which is what agnostic atheism is.

to hold to the belief that God is non-existent anywhere in the known or unknown universe is absurd without omniscience or omnipresence.

And a definition. Again, hence agnostic ignostic atheism.

And the purposeful avoidance of the affirmative position by word games is an attempt to mask the absurd knowledge Atheists claim to have.

No, it isn't. See above.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

You're implying that however God is described you can tell me why she/he doesn't exist. That's a positive affirmation. You're implying that however one chooses to define God your opinion is that He/she doesn't exist. And not only that, but you can demonstrate for us all that He/she doesn't exist.

Feel free to do so.

You have not described your God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
False. As I have stated, quite often even in these forum threads you'll read post that states: "God doesn't exist" or "There is no such thing as God.
Or shall I play the same game and when asked for proof of God's existence claim that "I simply lack the belief that God does not exist"?

I am not playing games with you.
What you read and what you interpret is your own business, the fact is that Atheism is lack of belief in God.

An atheist is someone who does not think there is a God.

Because there is no evidence for God.

The best that can be said for the proposed evidence is that God is one possible answer among other possibilities. But mostly, the proposed evidence is speculative, insufficient, and self-contradictory.

?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

False dilemma.

Yes or no, do you think God exists?

Again, false dilemma. I will respond with the only appropriate answer to that question. I have heard of this proposed deity but I have no yet been provided with sufficient (or any) evidence to accept its existence.

That is not a valid yes or no question, as the nature of such a being is quite complex.

You're wiggling from making a positive declaration. Answer the question for yourself. Does God exist?

And you're being dishonest by attempting to force me to put forth my negative position as a positive declaration so you can win semantics points.

Exodus 20:16

There might be a deity, but there is currently no evidence to support the existence of any deity.

How do you know there isn't? Have you examined all the evidence? Have you seen every alleged evidence?

Of course every statement of the sort I made is under the obvious assumption, as is pretty much any other statement made by an individual in this manner, that there is the implied addendum "That I am aware of"

Stop being childish with such silly questions. You do realize that I actively seek the possibility of evidence of the existence of deities, right? I'm actually going out there and asking other people to show me that my atheism is incorrect.

If so I'm quite impressed Madness. Come on, at least have some intellectual honesty and state "to the best of my limited knowledge God doesn't exist." Unless of course you can claim omniscience and omnipresence.

Exodus 20:16 again. The straw man argument is a grave sin according to your own religious text. All statements of the sort I made obviously imply 'to the best of my knowledge'. Stop splitting hairs to create straw men.

Of course, it's not the most limited knowledge. I've examined every Earthly claim that I've come across and there has yet to be a verifiable claim of the existence of any deity. Not to mention some religious doctrines that others ascribe.

Well, it would be doubtful that gender characteristics would apply to an all-powerful being...I mean, what use would a deity have for a Y chromosome?

I asked for a Yes or No, I suppose since there is a "Y" in your reply that you were sorta in the ballpark to telling me your belief about God's existence. Does God exist, or not?

You were repeating yourself and Exodus 20:16. Dishonesty doesn't become you.

As I've told you before, and I'll just try to rephrase it, there is insufficient evidence for that hypothesis.

Of course, the whole point is that the question is possibly unanswerable. "I don't believe in any deity" means that either there is conclusive proof that there are no deities or there is not enough proof for to reasonably arrive at the conclusion of the existence of at least one of them.

That's your opinion Madness. I categorically disagree. You can't tell me your personal answer to my question is "unanswerable". Yes or no, does God exist or not?

It's an unanswerable question. One must be omniscient to answer such a question with definitive epistemological certainty. Your categorical disagreement is categorically illogical. My personal answer would be irrational and I am not prepared to make a purely irrational statement on the nature of reality.

I do not believe in any deity, but I would gladly do so if presented with the evidence for the existence of any one.

I'm going to restate this again in another form: Though I have ventured to seek it, I have yet to encounter sufficient evidence for the existence of any deity.

Please, stop skewing the issue with a lack of logic and an oversimplification of a quite complex question.

Hardly. My post is very on topic, you claim Atheism, so do you think God exists? The thread is waiting for your answer.

Do I think your deity exists? Well, I have no good reason to accept your positive claim that it does. And why are you singling out your deity? There are millions of others that I'm rejecting as well, most far older than your desert deity.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by Drezden

 

Aren't most British people atheist as a rule?

Never heard of any such rule. A lot of people raised into a certain faith may be Atheist but are christined/baptised.

It's almost impossible to get an accurate statistic of "lack of belief", especially in the UK. Again, like in many Middle Eastern cultures, people may be afraid of announcing there lack of belief for whatever reason. And most carry the label of their parents, regardless of belief.


.

edit on 14/2/11 by awake_and_aware because: (no reason given)

I am jumping in on the question of British people being atheists, which I wasn't going to do before, as I can really speak only about the ones in New Zealand.
My answer would be : not particularly! New Zealand is a very atheist/secular country as a rule, and the British people here are no more likely to be atheist than New Zealanders, Asians, Americans or any of the other races/cultures here.
Vicky

Define God.

An eternal inter-dimensional Spirit.